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State of the Mac Address 2011
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voodoo
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Feb 15, 2011, 02:34 PM
 
The state of the Mac is poor. It has not been this bad since the mid 90s.

Apple's most popular computers are laptops (as are everyone's), but it's sad to see that the mediocrity of laptops now controls the journey of computers - with the consent of Apple apologists. The iMacs aren't anything but laptops on a leg anyway, inside they use modified laptop motherboards, with laptop CPUs and GPUs.

I'm bored with Apple, to provide full disclaimers, I have no interest in the iToys - though I own a fine iPod touch. Also I've noticed a decline of enthusiasm around me too... and on the internet.

MacNN is practically dead and all rumors on the usual sites are exclusively on iToys (when they are not on the discontinuation of actual Macintosh products, such as the XServe) or phone companies. Certainly this kind of enthusiasm and rumors hasn't been seen since the forums at Sony-Ericsson-fanbois.com shut down.

Perhaps Steve didn't quit soon enough. I sincerely hope Steve Jobs will never return to Apple (both for the sake of the company, and for his health problems)

OS X is dead and is becoming iOS, all the fine apps that Apple made (such as Aperture which is now sold for a fraction of its price, Shake, FCP, etc.) are all languishing in "maintainance" mode much like the Finder has been since the introduction of Mac OS X almost *ten* years ago.

Aperture's new low low price is merely an indicator that it has already lost the battle against Adobe's superior Lightroom app. Which in itself shows how little interest Apple ever had in the concept or the app. Adobe isn't exactly the cutting edge of software development, but they run rings around Apple.

iWorks and iLife are also in maintenance mode, with regular soulless theme updates. Much like Apple itself, lately.

And as the Adium statistics show, most people have accepted mediocrity. I have updated my Mac to 10.6.5 and that's as far as I'll go - the "updates" are now in name only. Add nothing except iToys and online shops.

Thus the state of the Mac is poor and its future is uncertain. The only positive thing that can be reported is that Steve Jobs will perhaps never return to Apple. The sad thing is, that it may already be too late. Macs are only about 30% of Apple's revenue - and radically different from the iToys, both in application and use.

Perhaps the Macintosh will simply be spun off into a Claris type corporation so Apple will not have to sully their hands any more with such things as "actual computers".

Apple has no vision for the Mac, as can clearly be seen in it's half-hearted development of the OS and its complete disregard for UI.

Remember the volume "wheel" in QuickTime 4? Well the people who thought that was neat now control Apple. That should make anyone feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Windows 7 has reached Mac OS X in functionality and passed it in performance, reliability and compatibility. That has never happened before in Apple history that Microsoft has reached Apple in any way shape or form. But it was possible by using 5 years to develop iPods and claim OS X was just getting a lot of "under-the-hood" updates.

While I don't doubt that is true, more was required than "under-the-hood" updates. More was required than the SnowLeopard maintenance to what Leopard should have been.

So on this month of the 10 year anniversary of Mac OS X the state of the Mac is the worst in 20 years. Though hardware design has been decent through the years, it has never been reflected in software engineering at Apple, not for a long time.

It is actually quite refreshing to take a look at where we are now and find a Mac that can run OS 9 natively. Yes it has no Dock, but such an app can be found for OS 9 and it lacks pre-empetive multitasking and memory protection, but setting that aside, it's still more responsive, more elegant and more intuitive than the current Mac OS X -- so what has happened in the last ten years then because OS X had those things from the beginning.

Mostly: iTunes versions 1-10, the iToys and the discontinuation of enterprise Macs.

Almost every feature that has been added, has been added to an application, not the OS or the Finder - which does represent the OS for users.

I can't tell the future, but for Apple it looks bright. For the Macintosh, I'd guess we're entering some turbulent times ahead. Especially when the iToys lose their marketshare to Microsoft, which specializes in only one thing - but it is good enough to cut down Apple any time: namely, making something that looks vaguely like an Apple device, performs somewhat worse and is a lot cheaper.

I know many others have rosier predictions, but the company is run 70% on iToys, which will be cut from underneath them soon by companies that make them cheaper and with Google's OS.

Steve Jobs may have cut "computer" from the name of Apple inc. but it really is the only thing they have to fall back on. Though I doubt anyone at Apple realizes that.

It was a fun half-a-decade from 1998-2003 when Apple was trying to make the best computers and the best OS. It was an exciting time and Apple was a computer company. Not a microtransaction iToy company.

I feel like I'm probably the last person on to tell Apple this (indirectly as it may be) but the gadget crowd doesn't care about anything except what is currently cool. They are a fickle bunch, just ask any player in the business. Nokia, Sony/Ericsson, RIM, Motorola etc. All have been giants at one time, only to be abandoned the next.

The state of the Mac is poor, but it is a conscious effort by Apple to make it so. There is no reason to. Apple claims that 30% is a lot of revenue and thus it will not be ignored. Well 30% going up or going down, Apple?

Mac versions of Adobe apps are 30% or so of their revenue. It's true, they're not dropping support, but the apps suffer a lot for it and quite reasonably much more effort is put into Wintel apps at Adobe.

Ten years after Mac OS X, the sun is setting on the Macintosh. And the Apple fanboys rejoice! I will rejoice with them, because Windows 7 is available, and it's more Mac like than OS X of today. Thanks Bill! You finally came through.
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Laminar
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Feb 15, 2011, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
MacNN is practically dead and all rumors on the usual sites are exclusively on iToys (when they are not on the discontinuation of actual Macintosh products, such as the XServe) or phone companies.
I suppose it has been a while.



Also, so much bait...
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 15, 2011, 02:54 PM
 
Heh, if you define Apple by the desktop, then yes, I suppose it's dead.

The desktop is niche.
     
imitchellg5
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Feb 15, 2011, 02:59 PM
 
I guess you've missed the part where every quarter Apple ships more and more Macs then the previous quarter? Not to mention that 50% of new Mac buyers are new to the platform. That sounds pretty incredible and healthy to me.

And I'm very tired hearing that Mac OS X is becoming iOS. Name one key feature of iOS that has migrated to become an actual working part of OS X.
     
voodoo  (op)
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Feb 15, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Heh, if you define Apple by the desktop, then yes, I suppose it's dead.

The desktop is niche.
tl;dr version: the Mac is 'desktop', Apple is whatever they want. Yes the Mac is niche, as can be seen by the anemic postings at MacNN (e.g.)

So I did *not* define Apple by the desktop, but the desktop as a separate entity from the iToys. In fact, iToys would be better off without any Mac 'desktop' connection, I'm sure.
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voodoo  (op)
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Feb 15, 2011, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I guess you've missed the part where every quarter Apple ships more and more Macs then the previous quarter? Not to mention that 50% of new Mac buyers are new to the platform. That sounds pretty incredible and healthy to me.

And I'm very tired hearing that Mac OS X is becoming iOS. Name one key feature of iOS that has migrated to become an actual working part of OS X.
No didn't miss any parts. I'm sure you're very tired of OS X becoming iOS, but can't argue with policy.

iOS key feature: the app store. You're welcome.

I'm sure Apple ships more Macs, but the Mac growth is anemic compared to iToys growth. So it doesn't matter much to Apple, apparently.
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The Final Dakar
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Feb 15, 2011, 03:07 PM
 
For the iPad to become a viable alternative, the cord does need to be cut (or integrate optional functionality).

But obviously I can't really parse what your overall point is when you complain about laptops being mediocre and Windows 7 being superior.
     
voodoo  (op)
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Feb 15, 2011, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
For the iPad to become a viable alternative, the cord does need to be cut (or integrate optional functionality).

But obviously I can't really parse what your overall point is when you complain about laptops being mediocre and Windows 7 being superior.
Agreed, the cord should be cut for the iPad and the rest.

My complaint against laptops is simple enough: the only real desktop machine that is a Mac is the MacPro, the rest are laptops, with all laptop compromises. Compromises that are mostly about sacrificing performance for power/heat savings. Thus making the iMac far less potent than it could else be, being a desktop machine (too heavy to take under the arm)

Windows 7 is not superior, just adequate. It has reached OS X level, which perhaps you would mistake as a complement. It's not, really. Windows 7 is just mediocre. Like OS X.

In other words it has reached OS X and OS X seems to be going nowhere fast, now with all attention on iToys at Apple. Microsoft seems to be able to handle more projects at the same time than Apple.
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Laminar
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Feb 15, 2011, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
But obviously I can't really parse what your overall point is when you complain about laptops being mediocre and Windows 7 being superior.
The point is bait. See you on page 10.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 15, 2011, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Agreed, the cord should be cut for the iPad and the rest.

My complaint against laptops is simple enough: the only real desktop machine that is a Mac is the MacPro, the rest are laptops, with all laptop compromises. Compromises that are mostly about sacrificing performance for power/heat savings. Thus making the iMac far less potent than it could else be, being a desktop machine (too heavy to take under the arm)
I don't understand the complaint. Are these "laptops" holding people back from doing something?

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
In other words it has reached OS X and OS X seems to be going nowhere fast, now with all attention on iToys at Apple. Microsoft seems to be able to handle more projects at the same time than Apple.
Well, I can agree the desktop OS has stagnated. What are you expecting to happen there that isn't occurring?

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
The point is bait. See you on page 10.
No shit, but it hasn't gotten ugly yet, so I'll eff around in here until that happens or I get bored.
     
boy8cookie
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Feb 15, 2011, 06:03 PM
 
What can't you do on the latest gen of iMac that you wish you could? The latest iMac is faster than every MacPro ever released up until the most recent version.
     
andi*pandi
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Feb 15, 2011, 06:11 PM
 
iToys = more people trying Mac, buying more Mac, all is good.

Perhaps in the general bad economy, people weren't updating their towers as often, relying on older software (CS1 etc) to get by. Now there's mutterings of tower upgrade purchases in the next fiscal year. Woo!
     
Stogieman
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Feb 15, 2011, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I'm sure Apple ships more Macs, but the Mac growth is anemic compared to iToys growth.
Guess what? PC growth compared to iOS devices is even worse.

Apple: Mac growth crushes PC growth | VentureBeat

* Macs have 20.7 percent of the consumer market in the United States
* There are 600,000 registered Mac developers
* Mac sales make up 33 percent of Apple’s revenue
* If Apple’s Mac division was a standalone company, it would rank 110 on the Fortune 500
* Apple sold 13.7 million Macs in fiscal year 2010, three times as many as five years ago
* The Mac installed base is 50 million users
* Mac sales grew 27 percent year-over-year, compared to 10 percent for PCs
* Mac sales have outgrown the market for 18 quarters.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Microsoft seems to be able to handle more projects at the same time than Apple.
You mean like the Bing, Kin, Windows Phone 7, MS retail stores, and the Zune projects?

Slick shoes?! Are you crazy?!
     
voodoo  (op)
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Feb 15, 2011, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
iToys = more people trying Mac, buying more Mac, all is good.

Perhaps in the general bad economy, people weren't updating their towers as often, relying on older software (CS1 etc) to get by. Now there's mutterings of tower upgrade purchases in the next fiscal year. Woo!
I appreciate that, but people are buying Macs despite the stagnation in Apple's Mac development (on the software side), not because Macs are the best computers. That's something that is going to bite Apple in the metaphorical ass.

"Good enough" is not good enough for Macs, they have to be leading the computer industry -- something I have not seen for some years now. Macs are 'ok' hardware-wise, and 'on par' with Windows on the OS side.

This is not doomsaying - heck I'm a looooong time Mac user and am very comfortable with the platform, but I see it stagnate. There is no particular reason for it IMO, just that Apple doesn't seem to be able to concentrate on iToys and the Mac at the same time. So what should Apple do? It has many apps and the OS to maintain, but also to improve. Improve to make these apps faster, a consistent UI experience and add features that add productivity - not features that helps Apple sell things.
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voodoo  (op)
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Feb 15, 2011, 08:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Stogieman View Post
You mean like the Bing, Kin, Windows Phone 7, MS retail stores, and the Zune projects?
Bing and the Windows phone 7 and the XBox 360, yes. I wouldn't dis them too fast. In Europe Windows phone 7 is quite a success and can easily eclipse the iPhone, combined with the Android phones.
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Feb 15, 2011, 11:17 PM
 
You people realize that arguing with voodoo is like trying to teach a pig to sing, right?

It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
     
imitchellg5
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Feb 15, 2011, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
iOS key feature: the app store. You're welcome.
An application that you can uninstall isn't a "key part of OS X." And I would argue that the iOS App Store and iTunes Store started out with the iTunes Store on OS X.
     
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Feb 15, 2011, 11:40 PM
 
The mainstream/high volume laptop lines are using 3 year old* CPUs. Pretty much tells the story.

* Sure it's not the exact same model number, but same clockrate and microarchitecture.
     
CharlesS
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Feb 16, 2011, 12:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
OS X is dead and is becoming iOS, all the fine apps that Apple made (such as Aperture which is now sold for a fraction of its price, Shake, FCP, etc.) are all languishing in "maintainance" mode much like the Finder has been since the introduction of Mac OS X almost *ten* years ago.
How is getting completely rewritten for the last major release of OS X "maintenance mode"?

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
And I'm very tired hearing that Mac OS X is becoming iOS. Name one key feature of iOS that has migrated to become an actual working part of OS X.
Did you watch the Lion keynote? Every feature they demoed there was taken from iOS in some way.

Ticking sound coming from a .pkg package? Don't let the .bom go off! Inspect it first with Pacifist. Macworld - five mice!
     
imitchellg5
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Feb 16, 2011, 01:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Did you watch the Lion keynote? Every feature they demoed there was taken from iOS in some way.
I'm talking about actual code that is taken from iOS, not just a couple visual modifications. Launchpad is perhaps the most similar visual modification to OS X that follows a vein of iOS, but it's certainly not the first time an application grid has shown up on a desktop OS.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 01:57 AM
 
voodoo, your trolling is more pathetic than the right-wing nuts in the Pol/War lounge.
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
The mainstream/high volume laptop lines are using 3 year old* CPUs. Pretty much tells the story.
That story is titled "Intel integrated graphics are sh!t." Apple made the right choice by sticking with 3 year old CPUs and adding brand-new GPUs (at that time).
     
Don Pickett
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Feb 16, 2011, 02:44 AM
 
Must have been difficult to squeeze so much stupid into one post.

Congrats.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
besson3c
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Feb 16, 2011, 03:17 AM
 
voodoo: I predict that people are going to pummel your ass in here, and I apologize in advance for that, it is unfortunate that these sorts of discussions grow intensely personal.

However, I will make the point that the entire industry is changing, and your benchmarks might need some calibration. Computers are growing more and more to not be about big honking towers loaded up with computing power, because there really hasn't been any innovation over the last several years that has warranted this.

What we are seeing is a drive towards convenience, a willing to experiment with different devices that might make things more convenient, and the killer apps of the day being social networking and cloud computing that helps proliferate these lightweight, less costly, smaller footprint devices.

I think that OS X has languished because there is little future in it, or Windows 7, or any other Desktop OS really. Whether we like this or not, this is simply the way it is. I don't think it is fair to criticize Apple for help support these changes. History has shown that companies cannot single-handedly drive these changes, the customers have to want them, and the customers clearly want iToys, tablets, phones, Facebook, et all.

As long as there is a need for PCs to help create content and do the things that they have historically done there will be somebody to fulfill that niche. Whether this is Apple or not, the players of the game will always change, this is nothing new.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 10:01 AM
 
State of the MAC Address?

01:23:45:67:89:ab
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 16, 2011, 10:17 AM
 
Ha, three posts and he's already ignoring me.

You stay classy.
     
Don Pickett
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Feb 16, 2011, 10:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What we are seeing is a drive towards convenience, a willing to experiment with different devices that might make things more convenient, and the killer apps of the day being social networking and cloud computing that helps proliferate these lightweight, less costly, smaller footprint devices.
Which is what I've been telling people since the iPad appeared: it's the future, for the very simple reason that it's as much computer as most people need.

We've reached a point in hardware development at which relatively minimal specs are more than enough for the vast majority of computing needs. Even taking into account business needs, the vast majority of computer use is limited to email, web, music, word processing, spreadsheets and the like; in other words, Mail/Outlook, Safari, iTunes and Office. You don't need a six core Xeon do those things. Any Core Duo/i3 is more than enough computing power. The users whose needs go beyond this--high level retouchers, production/pre-press, video, audio, programmers, scientific users--are probably no more than 25% of the user base.

Look at Apple's sales for the past several years and you will see that Apple is selling more machines than ever. And Apple is selling a lot of desktop machines, both iMacs and Mac Pros. But Apple is also selling millions and millions and millions of laptops, and millions and million of iPod Touches, iPhones and iPads. This is where the explosive growth is, and this is where the explosive growth will be. In terms of raw computing power my old, 2 GHz G5 is powerful enough for every day computing. A 13-inch MacBook Pro, which is almost twice as fast in raw CPU, and feels much faster because of faster RAM and the like, is more than enough. A lot of people don't even need that much, preferring to use their phone as their primary computing device.

And even those power users don't need that power all the time. Unless I'm doing something which requires multiple cores and lots of RAM, an iPad would probably be just fine for me, as outside of Photoshop and friends, my computing needs are as simple as anyone else, and don't get too far from web/RSS/music. If you're someone who does most of the heavy lifting with your work machine, you don't need anything much other than a 13" MacBook Pro at home.

I think that OS X has languished because there is little future in it, or Windows 7, or any other Desktop OS really. Whether we like this or not, this is simply the way it is. I don't think it is fair to criticize Apple for help support these changes. History has shown that companies cannot single-handedly drive these changes, the customers have to want them, and the customers clearly want iToys, tablets, phones, Facebook, et all.
I don't think OS X is languishing. I think it's reached maturity. The past ten years have seen Apple essentially release an entirely new OS and then refine it, publicly. Many people here will remember the first three releases of OS X had some very rough edges, and, personally, it wasn't until 10.3 that I felt the OS had really hit its stride. Apple has made some impressive improvements since then, both in userland and under the hood, and now OS X is a mature, robust OS. I don't think there are a lot of major changes left to be made.

I think there's another change, related to the above, which is throwing some old time Mac users for a loop. Simply put, the Mac culture many of us have known for decades, defined largely as an us-versus-them relationship with the rest of the Windows-powered computing world, is on the way out. MS has lost the battle in the mobile space, and has lost the mindshare battle in the desktop/laptop space. All of these millions of new Apple users don't know, and won't care, about the classic OS, Clarus the Dogcow or any of that. The days when you could tell yourself that buying a Mac meant you were making the smarter, more informed choice than the computing masses is over as well. People buy Apple stuff now are not buying a culture. They're buying the best products, the machines which do the best job for what the need. If there is to be an Apple culture going forward it will be much more inclusive, much more global and much more varied than we have known.

Oh, yeah: any time I see someone pining for OS 9, I know I'm found someone who needs a computer to be more than the best machine for the job. They need it to impart some arcane knowledge which makes them special and somehow different than the unwashed masses. I see this a fair amount in the Linux community, where you can find people making the claim that, unless you're comfortable with CLI commands and compiling your own software, you shouldn't be allowed to use a computer. This isn't about making the machine and OS as efficient and easy to use as possible. It's about setting up artificial barriers for entry to enforce group identity. I've been using Macs since the very first 128k, and as revolutionary as the OS was when it was introduced, by the time Windows 95 shipped it was a hacked together, poorly functioning kludge. Had Apple not made the move to OS X, Apple wouldn't be here today.
( Last edited by Don Pickett; Feb 16, 2011 at 10:44 AM. )
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Feb 16, 2011, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Must have been difficult to squeeze so much stupid into one post.

Congrats.
lmfao. Excellent.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 10:58 AM
 
Going back to the software, I agree with the OP about applications like Final Cut Studio and Aperture. I have used Aperture since the original version and love the layout. Aside from toolbar and visual changes, the app itself has not had any major improvements since 1.5. It's a shame to see programs with so much potential in earlier years slow down in the competition because they are no longer a high priority at apple. I am a decent Photoshop, Indesign and illustrator user. After hearing my professors side with Light Room, and power users like Trancepriest say that FC is dead to them (hope he doesn't mind my quoting his Flickr), is when it hit me that apple is narrowing their priorities to a specific market. But you all know that already.

I know you guys might not care since I am young and a hardware guy; I just want to agree that Windows is getting advanced, at a higher rate than I'm used to. I do IT at a university part time, and my department is obviously all windows. It's a little scary seeing how solid the OS feels, much more so than before.


Jesse
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Don Pickett
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Feb 16, 2011, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Googer-Giger View Post
Going back to the software, I agree with the OP about applications like Final Cut Studio and Aperture. I have used Aperture since the original version and love the layout. Aside from toolbar and visual changes, the app itself has not had any major improvements since 1.5. It's a shame to see programs with so much potential in earlier years slow down in the competition because they are no longer a high priority at apple. I am a decent Photoshop, Indesign and illustrator user. After hearing my professors side with Light Room, and power users like Trancepriest say that FC is dead to them (hope he doesn't mind my quoting his Flickr), is when it hit me that apple is narrowing their priorities to a specific market. But you all know that already.

I know you guys might not care since I am young and a hardware guy; I just want to agree that Windows is getting advanced, at a higher rate than I'm used to. I do IT at a university part time, and my department is obviously all windows. It's a little scary seeing how solid the OS feels, much more so than before.


Jesse
Apple has dropped software before. If they let Aperture go, it wouldn't be the first time. Truth be told I was never sure why they released it in the first place, as apps like that are not what Apple's good at.

And Windows is solid. For the most part it's been solid since Windows 95. Which brings me back to my point: the desktop OS wars are over. Windows has market share, Apple has revenue and mindshare. The future isn't the desktop OS by itself, it's the desktop OS plus the mobile OS.
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Feb 16, 2011, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
...Simply put, the Mac culture many of us have known for decades, defined largely as an us-versus-them relationship with the rest of the Windows-powered computing world, is on the way out...
Yes, and thank God. I was 19 when I got a Mac Plus for college and am now 44. Frankly, I don't need the stress of fighting the good fight any more.
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Feb 16, 2011, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by scottiB View Post
Yes, and thank God. I was 19 when I got a Mac Plus for college and am now 44. Frankly, I don't need the stress of fighting the good fight any more.
Me, too. However, I think there are people for whom Apple ownership isn't about getting the best machine for the job, but about being Different.
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Feb 16, 2011, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
In Europe Windows phone 7 is quite a success
This is the second time on this board I've seen someone throw this out there. As far as I can tell, it's complete to total nonsense.

Can you back this up in ANY way?
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Me, too. However, I think there are people for whom Apple ownership isn't about getting the best machine for the job, but about being Different.
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Feb 16, 2011, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Me, too. However, I think there are people for whom Apple ownership isn't about getting the best machine for the job, but about being Different.
I'm in a class right now and about 40 students have MacBooks and 4 people have Windows-based PCs. It's not unique anymore.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I'm in a class right now and about 40 students have MacBooks and 4 people have Windows-based PCs. It's not unique anymore.
Exactly my point.

And I'm sitting here playing CoD:MW2 with Crossover Games. Which OS am I running, again?
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Feb 16, 2011, 12:22 PM
 
I for one am glad that I no longer have to answer emails from my relatives that go along the lines of "I DOWNLOADED A MOVIE VIEWER ON MY WINDOWS XP AND THE COMPUTER WON'T BOOT NOW!!!11"
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The state of the Mac is poor. It has not been this bad since the mid 90s.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. You do know that sales numbers have tripled since 2005, right? Sales of Macs, that is. Units, not dollars.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Apple's most popular computers are laptops (as are everyone's), but it's sad to see that the mediocrity of laptops now controls the journey of computers - with the consent of Apple apologists. The iMacs aren't anything but laptops on a leg anyway, inside they use modified laptop motherboards, with laptop CPUs and GPUs.
No, they are not. They used to be, but that changed a year and half ago - only the GPU is a mobile version now. You need to update your talking points.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I'm bored with Apple, to provide full disclaimers, I have no interest in the iToys - though I own a fine iPod touch. Also I've noticed a decline of enthusiasm around me too... and on the internet.
It's easier to be enthusiastic about a small, almost dying company than it is to be enthusiastic about the second biggest company in the US.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Windows 7 has reached Mac OS X in functionality and passed it in performance, reliability and compatibility. That has never happened before in Apple history that Microsoft has reached Apple in any way shape or form. But it was possible by using 5 years to develop iPods and claim OS X was just getting a lot of "under-the-hood" updates.
This may be the most amusing paragraph in this entire tirade. Back in the mid-nineties, Windows had all the buzzword features and Mac OS was bleeding customers. Today, there are no complaints that OS X is missing some crucial feature that Windows has, and the Mac is gaining share. The most we can complain about is how ASLR is implemented, that TRIM support is missing or that the OpenGL version is outdated - hardly comparable to missing preemptive multitasking or memory protection. If it turned out that one of these pieces suddenly became a big deal, Apple could easily fix that. That was not the case in the nineties, when it took them several failed tries and a decade to fix the fundamental problems.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
It is actually quite refreshing to take a look at where we are now and find a Mac that can run OS 9 natively. Yes it has no Dock, but such an app can be found for OS 9 and it lacks pre-empetive multitasking and memory protection, but setting that aside, it's still more responsive, more elegant and more intuitive than the current Mac OS X -- so what has happened in the last ten years then because OS X had those things from the beginning.
This is true and and an interesting testament to just how good Quickdraw was, but I will note that OS X is more responsive than Win 7 on comparable hardware - not that either is a slouch. I think that the current interface is judged to be "fast enough", so noone is working on it.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Mostly: iTunes versions 1-10, the iToys and the discontinuation of enterprise Macs.

Almost every feature that has been added, has been added to an application, not the OS or the Finder - which does represent the OS for users.
Spotlight. Expose. Dashboard. Spaces. Journalling filesystem. Bonjour. CUPS. SMB. Quartz Extreme. Fast User Switching. FileVault. Voiceover. Front Row. QuickLook. Time Machine. I could go on, but all of these are reasonably big, at least somewhat visible features for the OS or Finder that weren't there in 10.0. I even excluded the big missing pieces from 10.0, since it even failed to burn a CD IIRC.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
No, they are not. They used to be, but that changed a year and half ago - only the GPU is a mobile version now. You need to update your talking points.
The GPUs are just embedded on the motherboard on most models, right? To be fair, Apple is far from the only vendor that ships machines with embedded video.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The GPUs are just embedded on the motherboard on most models, right? To be fair, Apple is far from the only vendor that ships machines with embedded video.
Not any more: Most iMacs use standard PCI GPUs. Theoretically you could replace the card. However, given the iMacs are designed with extremely tight tolerances for both fit and cooling, putting a card other than the one the machine was expressly designed for may be asking for trouble.
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Feb 16, 2011, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
That's an interesting way of looking at it. You do know that sales numbers have tripled since 2005, right? Sales of Macs, that is. Units, not dollars.
Dismissing the boring nerdy sarcasm, yeah Apple has been moving more Wintels than ever before. Since the hardware is generic, I'm not impressed - but how has Mac OS X been doing? Apple has been selling more Mac OS X than ever before and never put less effort into making it.

Someone mentioned that there had been a complete rewrite of the OS, and I'm sure there was. A lot of activity with nary a result. Perhaps it 'needed' a rewrite, especially in light of the fact that Apple was ditching carbon-64. But it was re-written as the same system as before.

The point is that Apple has been doing little or nothing with their OS in the last 5 years or so, except to add strange and seemingly random features that Apple then doesn't follow up on. I'll get to that later. And Apple has been selling more Windows machines than ever. Sure they also happen to run OS X.. but so does a Hackintosh.

Where does that leave *the MACINTOSH*? More sales don't help the Mac. I wrote about the state of the Mac, not the state of Apple in general (which is fine at the moment) and I stand by that distinction. Apple is not == Macintosh.

No, they are not. They used to be, but that changed a year and half ago - only the GPU is a mobile version now. You need to update your talking points.
So the versions of the i3 and i5 are desktop versions? I'd like a confirmation on that, if you don't mind, since they are available in laptop versions too. Is the motherboard a desktop version as well? Certainly not the GPU.

Notably the 'main feature' of every new iMac according to Steve Jobs is that it's 'thinner' than ever before. Like a cm or two matters one iota for a computer that sits on the desktop all day. That man has lost some connection with reality. But I digress. .. Thinner iMacs means laptop energy saving motherboards and chipsets. But you claim "everything" except the GPU is of desktop caliber. I don't mind being wrong on this, but I've seen no confirmation of that. Just that the new iMacs use the i5 and i7 (both of which exist in a low-energy, low performance laptop versions).

It's easier to be enthusiastic about a small, almost dying company than it is to be enthusiastic about the second biggest company in the US.
Again you use Apple and the Macintosh interchangeably. I have never been enthusiastic about Apple. Just the Mac. Maybe I've been a minority without knowing it and everyone was just so excited about Apple and by extension the Mac, but I doubt it.

This may be the most amusing paragraph in this entire tirade. Back in the mid-nineties, Windows had all the buzzword features and Mac OS was bleeding customers. Today, there are no complaints that OS X is missing some crucial feature that Windows has, and the Mac is gaining share. The most we can complain about is how ASLR is implemented, that TRIM support is missing or that the OpenGL version is outdated - hardly comparable to missing preemptive multitasking or memory protection. If it turned out that one of these pieces suddenly became a big deal, Apple could easily fix that. That was not the case in the nineties, when it took them several failed tries and a decade to fix the fundamental problems.
Tirade? You're no Shakespeare buddy. And you're right, there are not many complaints that OS X is missing crucial features that Windows has, because they're pretty much on par - though I could name a few: such as graphics performance, backwards compatibility and hardware support.

No complaints is patently wrong. The preemptive multitasking and memory protection were introduced *a decade ago*. Please, stop talking about that as features. That's history.

This is true and and an interesting testament to just how good Quickdraw was, but I will note that OS X is more responsive than Win 7 on comparable hardware - not that either is a slouch. I think that the current interface is judged to be "fast enough", so noone is working on it.
Good enough, fast enough and reliable enough are words I have until now connected with Windows, not the Macintosh. So we've downgraded from damn fast and responsive to good enough. Yeah, I think that can be improved upon and I think OS X is a downgrade from OS 9 in UI performance (though we've gained some other good things with OS X) -- but it's not a zero sum game. We can easily have both performance and reliability, but it takes effort.

Effort Apple is not at all interested in. Steve Jobs has been obsessed with it on the iToys however, which are quite responsive. If only the Macintosh, with its immensely more CPU/GPU power was as responsive as an puny ARM based iPhone. It's a question of interest.

Spotlight. Expose. Dashboard. Spaces. Journalling filesystem. Bonjour. CUPS. SMB. Quartz Extreme. Fast User Switching. FileVault. Voiceover. Front Row. QuickLook. Time Machine. I could go on, but all of these are reasonably big, at least somewhat visible features for the OS or Finder that weren't there in 10.0. I even excluded the big missing pieces from 10.0, since it even failed to burn a CD IIRC.
Spotlight? Exposé? Dashboard? Spaces? JFS? Bonjour? ... and indeed Front Row. All in version 1.0 (more or less) though Front Row was better in version 1.0 than the tragedy that it is today.. though it is essentially not Front Row, just a facsimile - a rewrite. The rest are fine things, but have seen little or no performance improvements or development in the last years. CUPS is a system for driving printers.

Quartz Extreme is how old? As I wrote, some of those things are fine, but have seen no real enhancements, developments or actual upgrades. Just maintenance.

OK, let's grant you that all above is valid. Is there a vision for Spotlight in the future, or can shareware developers make something as good or better with little effort? Will it be developed? No. It won't. It hasn't. Exposé? Spaces? Dashboard? Apart from mixing it into one, anything?

Are we still using HFS+? Like in the 90s? What happened to file extensions? They still there? Yes, stronger than in DOS back in the 80s. Filetypes gone because ... users are too stoopid? That's what some apologists say.

So instead of being insanely great, let's be insanely mediocre! That's the state of the Mac today. And there's no real reason for it, apart from the fact that Apple can't (or won't) concentrate on two things at once these days -- perhaps because Steve Jobs can't. Apple of the 90s was a lousy business, but then again, I was never a fan of Apple. Heck I even bought a clone when I could.

But Apple of the 90s could do system engineering and design, at least of what they already had in their hands. Granted Copland wasn't all that successful, but blaming that on Apple not being able to design and engineer good systems was not the reason. It was despite the talent of Apple.
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Feb 16, 2011, 01:33 PM
 
voodoo: the Mac (and Windows PC) do not represent the direction the consumer industry is heading towards. What it sounds like you are mad at is this notion, and it seems like you are misdirecting your frustration towards Apple.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't understand the complaint. Are these "laptops" holding people back from doing something?
First, I have a life outside MacNN, so very classy post above!!

Second, nothing against laptops, but when my iMac is a glorified laptop (as my current one is, just because Steve Jobs thinks everything needs to be super-thin, is not pleasing)

Granted, as has been mentioned, perhaps the i3 and i5 in the iMacs of today are not laptop versions, but the GPU is. So is the motherboard, and bus speeds.

Well, I can agree the desktop OS has stagnated. What are you expecting to happen there that isn't occurring?
For one thing UI speed - something that has been a no.1 priority on the iToys and quite successful too. For another continue to develop the things that have already been added to the OS and Finder. Dare I dream of a consistent UI? Better file management in the Finder? Improved Spotlight, Quartz Extreme++, ... you know at the moment the stagnation is such that I hardly remember what it feels like to see something new and innovative in Mac OS X.

The banishment of the phrase "good enough".

No shit, but it hasn't gotten ugly yet, so I'll eff around in here until that happens or I get bored.
Well, I appreciate the civility, this is a touchy subject. I will keep my posts as close to 0% snarky as possible.
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Feb 16, 2011, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
voodoo: I predict that people are going to pummel your ass in here, and I apologize in advance for that, it is unfortunate that these sorts of discussions grow intensely personal.
Yes, I predict you are right. I'll just answer this post and your latter one in one go.

However, I will make the point that the entire industry is changing, and your benchmarks might need some calibration. Computers are growing more and more to not be about big honking towers loaded up with computing power, because there really hasn't been any innovation over the last several years that has warranted this.
True and I agree. Would it be presumptuous of me to want the UI that we lowly computer users is at least as responsive and consistent as it was in the 90s? I feel that is not too much to ask. Also there have been periods of stagnation before in the computer world.. in 1984-1989 there was a great calm and people were just happy with their relatively modest 68k and 386 processors. Then from the left field there's 3D and then later video.

What we are seeing is a drive towards convenience, a willing to experiment with different devices that might make things more convenient, and the killer apps of the day being social networking and cloud computing that helps proliferate these lightweight, less costly, smaller footprint devices.
The way I see it, computers are still selling more and more each year.. but iToys are small and relatively cheap. They replace our cellphones and music players. In sheer volume, they will always beat computers. The internet itself is still way too expensive and unreliable for the cloud computer dream, but I digress. Maybe there will be cloud computing, but either way we're not there yet.

I think that OS X has languished because there is little future in it, or Windows 7, or any other Desktop OS really. Whether we like this or not, this is simply the way it is. I don't think it is fair to criticize Apple for help support these changes. History has shown that companies cannot single-handedly drive these changes, the customers have to want them, and the customers clearly want iToys, tablets, phones, Facebook, et all.
I disagree. The iToys are when all is said and done, empty vessels. They rely on content creation, they are the consoles all over again. In other words, yes they will be and are ubiquitous, but they can't replace computers any more than the consoles could. Even when the consoles are just computers in a closed box (XBox) ... But they are cheap and convenient, which is a ticket to success. But not as a replacement to a real computer, which is always more powerful, flexible, upgradable and versatile.

Laptops are for some even a better compromise than an iToy.

As long as there is a need for PCs to help create content and do the things that they have historically done there will be somebody to fulfill that niche. Whether this is Apple or not, the players of the game will always change, this is nothing new.
True, and I think this will be a market of hundreds and hundreds of millions. The iToy market will probably be larger, but that in and of itself doesn't change anything about PCs. You don't type on your iToy. You don't edit movies or sound on an iToy. You don't record on an iToy.

In fact, you do little but spend money on microtransactions on an iToy.
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Feb 16, 2011, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
An application that you can uninstall isn't a "key part of OS X." And I would argue that the iOS App Store and iTunes Store started out with the iTunes Store on OS X.
You can uninstall the App Store from OS X??! That's news to me! How is it done?
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Feb 16, 2011, 02:01 PM
 
Um...Drag it to the trash and empty that?
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
You can uninstall the App Store from OS X??! That's news to me! How is it done?
Drag it to the trash. Empty trash. Like any other app.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 02:10 PM
 
Welcome to Macintosh.™
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
True and I agree. Would it be presumptuous of me to want the UI that we lowly computer users is at least as responsive and consistent as it was in the 90s? I feel that is not too much to ask. Also there have been periods of stagnation before in the computer world.. in 1984-1989 there was a great calm and people were just happy with their relatively modest 68k and 386 processors. Then from the left field there's 3D and then later video.
It would be very nice if developers were into optimizing code the way they were in the days that computing resources were scarce and precious, but this just doesn't happen a great deal with software in general - Apple's or otherwise, and it hasn't been this way for years now. OS X is definitely bloated, but then again, maybe the best way to "unbloat" it is to start with a clean slate, which is more or less what iOS is.

The way I see it, computers are still selling more and more each year.. but iToys are small and relatively cheap. They replace our cellphones and music players. In sheer volume, they will always beat computers. The internet itself is still way too expensive and unreliable for the cloud computer dream, but I digress. Maybe there will be cloud computing, but either way we're not there yet.
I think we are there already. Mobile apps are all about the cloud, Facebook is the most popular app in the world, the world's largest email systems Yahoo, GMail, Hotmail, etc. are primarily web based, and Google's products are obviously cloud based and have inspired their ChromeOS. All of this has become far more prominent and important than older software giants such as MS Office or Adobe CS.


I disagree. The iToys are when all is said and done, empty vessels. They rely on content creation, they are the consoles all over again. In other words, yes they will be and are ubiquitous, but they can't replace computers any more than the consoles could. Even when the consoles are just computers in a closed box (XBox) ... But they are cheap and convenient, which is a ticket to success. But not as a replacement to a real computer, which is always more powerful, flexible, upgradable and versatile.
You don't need any of that to do some of the things I have listed above.

True, and I think this will be a market of hundreds and hundreds of millions. The iToy market will probably be larger, but that in and of itself doesn't change anything about PCs. You don't type on your iToy. You don't edit movies or sound on an iToy. You don't record on an iToy.
For now and the foreseeable future you don't, one of the primary roadblocks being bandwidth.
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Welcome to Macintosh.™

Cue MacNN snarkiness...
     
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Feb 16, 2011, 02:51 PM
 
Never mind.
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Feb 16, 2011 at 03:05 PM. )
     
 
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