[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug

10.0 was completely unusable. Vista now is already usable, and more so IMO than 10.1 was at launch.

That's bullsh!t.

10.0 was indeed usable. It just depended on what you wanted to do with it. I replaced two linux development boxes I had with 10.0. No problem. I used it a lot. Of course the subsequent 10.x updates brought significant improvements, but to say 10.0 was unusable is baloney.

You can make your point without distorting reality. Have you seen too much of Steve lately?

[parsec_kadets]

I'll gladly pay the cost to upgrade if they just fix the Finder so it recognizes a disconnected server in a reasonable ammount time without crashing. I was transfering files from my Windows PC a couple nights ago and the PC crashed in the middle of the transfer (what else would you expect from a PIII 800MHz running Win2k). I came back an hour later and the Finder still hadn't timed out the transfer. I had to do a hard reboot because the Finder wouldn't even force quit.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

"Leopard will feature resolution-independent user interface and there are several functions to get the current scaling factor and apply it to pixel measurements. It is a good idea to use vector controls and buttons (PDF will work fine) or to have multiple sized resources, similar to Mac OS X icon design, so you can scale to the nearest size for the required resolution.

Core Animation allows layers to be used as backing stores for a view, windows to use explicit animations when resizing (can be three dimensional, akin to the Time Machine view). Any view can now be put into fullscreen mode and a CoreImage transition effect can be used. Using Core Animation you can create anything including GPU-accelerated Front Row-style user interfaces without having to write OpenGL code. A Core Animation layer can include OpenGL content, Core Image and Core Video filter effects and Quartz/Cocoa drawing content, like views and windows."

http://www.aeroxp.org/board/index.ph...=0&#entry58868

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I found 10.0 usable. 10.1 was a lot faster, but still, 10.0 was alright.

You couldn't even burn CDs with it. I had to boot into OS 9 just to back up my files.

[as2]

Found some clues that iChat 4 will offer support for other chat clients.. on the leopard server pages I found this...

iChat Server 2 adds instant messaging federation, allowing users to chat with users on other XMPP instant messaging systems such as Google Talk, and vise versa.

[TETENAL]

You can already do this with a Jabber server. It looks like XMPP is just a newer version of the Jabber-protocol.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You couldn't even burn CDs with it.

Really? I thought Disk Copy could burn CDs in 10.0.

[CharlesS]

Nope, that was in 10.1.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You couldn't even burn CDs with it. I had to boot into OS 9 just to back up my files.

I burnt CDs on 10.0.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You couldn't even burn CDs with it. I had to boot into OS 9 just to back up my files.

You preferred to boot OS 9 than getting a FW drive?

[Gee4orce]

Why are you guys even arguing about 10.0 or 10.1 ?

We are on 10.4 now, heading into 10.5 - MS are the ones that are still shipping Windows XP. Vista, I hardly need remind you, is still a Beta.

The way I see the code names is that 10.4 is where OS X earned it's stripes (Tiger - geddit ?) and 10.5 is where it will change it's spots (Leopard - geddit ?)

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

You can already do this with a Jabber server. It looks like XMPP is just a newer version of the Jabber-protocol.

What is new and better about it?

[Gavin]

I didn't find 10.0 to be all that slow. The finder was super pokey that's true, but the OS kicked bJtt compared with OS9, for the things I was doing at the time it was much more usable. Not having to reboot when someone else's mac took mine down over filesharing must have added an hour to my day. Take back out the 45 minutes for Menu Lag and I still came out ahead.

Bringing up the history is useful. We've seen the pendulum swing from "making it work" to "New cool stuff" as X matures. The basics are out of the way now, nobody complains about slow menus or boot times anymore. From the little I've seen so far of Leopard it seems to have a good ratio of fixing the (increasingly rare) shortcomings with other OSs to adding tools for the future. That's a good place to be.

[Gavin]

Originally Posted by parsec_kadets

I'll gladly pay the cost to upgrade if they just fix the Finder so it recognizes a disconnected server in a reasonable ammount time without crashing.

Damn, I'll second that!

[Chuckit]

Thirded.

And while we're on networking wishes, I hope they'll allow a 12-person company to have an AppleShare file server without blowing big bucks on Mac OS X Server…but that ain't gonna happen.

[JLL]

$83 per user in your case is big bucks?

[Gavin]

Or you could just run Samba. Or even replace the native AFS with Netatalk.

[Velocity211]

10.0 and 10.1 were like betas, 10.2 was the first release of OSX that you can use regularly without it being sluggy or freezing.

[Javizun]

WORLDS MOST ADVANCED OPERATING SYSTEM HUH
and people are excited about spaces, mail notes & a backup store system? lol hahaha
welcome to 2001 in 2006.

since apple released the windows me equal 10.1 i remember using virtual desktop to use a diffrent window for certain apps i remember naming them -music,pictures,internet,office
same thing jobs is doing so i was way ahead of the worls most advanced os back like in 99-2000. All jobs is doing is adding that apple "coolness" i just cant believe the internet buzz about how microsoft copys apple but dont mention how late leopardis to some of its features i mean seriously caliming worlds most advanced os and dont even have a system restore like future till now? and dont get me started on optimization features its lacking.

woo hooo mail gets NOTES lol hhahahaha slowly mail will be the awesome outlook with added apple flare. I LOVE APPLE but damn it i hate how they claim microsft copy from them. Remember konfabulator? ripped it,stole it luckily the original designer made money by selling it to yahoo BOOOO APPLE on your next presentation show the world all the lovely companys ideas you stole to create this amazingos and show how you ran them out of business..at least microsoft buys them out jeesh.

[iREZ]

did you notice how time machine isnt a restore function because you crashed your computer completely, but more so a mistake cleanerupper because you accidently lost a file somewhere. thats what makes the os more advanced than windows, the fact that windows NEEDS software to restore the computer where as mac os is only helping out the user who accidently made a mistake.

but i do agree that apple does steal ideas here n there as well, the only reason im ok with it is because apple does a better implementation when they 'copy' and idea whereas M$ makes it worse.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Javizun

i mean seriously caliming worlds most advanced os and dont even have a system restore like future till now?

It's the most advanced OS precisely because you don't need MS' moronic 'restore' function which implicitly assumes a simple update can screw up your system in such a irreversible way that a delete-and-copy-back approach is the only way to cope with it.

and dont get me started on optimization features its lacking.

Woohoo, 'optimization features'. Sounds geeky. Sounds big. Sounds really necessary.

Umm no, sounds like it was pulled out of somewhere. Do you care to elaborate or was that just part of your uncontrolled rant?

And while we're at it: grammar, punctuation, umm hello? If you expect others to take the time and read your post (and possibly even reply) don't you think they deserve a minimal writing effort on your behalf?

[Gavin]

Virtual desktops goes back even farther than that - it's an X windows thing from UNIX.
I'm using it right now as I write this on a linux box. We're on destop 3 ("web browsing")

The thing Apple brings to the table is the cool way to find your apps and open windows among the desktops. The Gnome panel is almost useless, I have to click a little box down at the bottom (guessing which desktop I left it on) and still hunt behind several open windows to find my window. I could use that expose-like thing NOW.

so
1. MS didn't invent it either
2. the point is the usability not the idea

3. Don't believe the hype. Konfabulator got the widget idea from sherlock. Sure, it was a better implementation and extensable, but it was not the originator of the idea of small html interface to web data. Yes, apple did crush the little guy but they didn't steal his idea, anyone with a brain could see where the next verison of Shelock was headed. A third party beat them to the initial punch and filled a niche. But niches go away as the OS progresses and thier denizens get .. what... extruded, expelled, eaten, enraged (pick one). It's the same thing that happend to EIMS and Webstar and is about to happen to Desktop Manager and VirtualDesktop ( and hopefully the FTP client vendors when they roll real FTP into the finder ). The Konfabulator issue is one of those things where a few people shout about it and it seems to become part of what everybody knows, but it isn't true.

[Javizun]

Originally Posted by Simon

It's the most advanced OS precisely because you don't need MS' moronic 'restore' function which implicitly assumes a simple update can screw up your system in such a irreversible way that a delete-and-copy-back approach is the only way to cope with it.



Woohoo, 'optimization features'. Sounds geeky. Sounds big. Sounds really necessary.

Umm no, sounds like it was pulled out of somewhere. Do you care to elaborate or was that just part of your uncontrolled rant?

And while we're at it: grammar, punctuation, umm hello? If you expect others to take the time and read your post (and possibly even reply) don't you think they deserve a minimal writing effort on your behalf?

Simon im sorry you grammar,punctuation god. Punctuation was there very minimal but there, grammar? i dont understand.

[dimmer]

Konfabulator is based on a feature Apple 'invented' with System 1.0 in Desk Accessories. Technically, Dashboard and Konfabulator look alike, but their underlying technologies are way different.

It's also interesting to note that Arlo Rose was an ex-Apple UI Team employee--he may well have seen prototypes for Deshboard before he left. Just a speculation.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I burnt CDs on 10.0.

You're remembering incorrectly.

Quick Google search turned up some info to back me up:

http://www.coolmacintosh.com/macos101review.html

In a review of 10.1: "Another big feature implementation is the ability to burn CDs, and watch and burn DVDs. CD/DVD burning ala Disc Burner is very easy. Plus, you can now use Disk Copy to create cloned images of disks, which means exact copies and bootable disks, something you can't do in 9.x without third party software. And DVDs play much more smoothly than they did in MacOS 9, with audio sync problems all but eliminated."

Originally Posted by Simon

You preferred to boot OS 9 than getting a FW drive?

You can't move a backup made to a FW drive off site. A backup on a FW drive doesn't help you much if some disaster, such as a fire or a flood, happens to hit your apartment...

[Gavin]

That suggests just the built in disk burning with the finder. It still may have been possible with toast in 10.0.

I don't remember - I believe I was between burners at the time.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You can't move a backup made to a FW drive off site. A backup on a FW drive doesn't help you much if some disaster, such as a fire or a flood, happens to hit your apartment...

I don't know about you, but I can take my external FW HDD to another place just as easy as CD. Actually it's easier than 50 CDs, since that's about the comparable capacity.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon

I don't know about you, but I can take my external FW HDD to another place just as easy as CD. Actually it's easier than 50 CDs, since that's about the comparable capacity.

Not permanently, you can't, unless you either have a really large supply of FireWire hard drives or you never intend to back up more than once.

[dru]

Originally Posted by bowwowman

RTFMFCOL..........

from the sneak peek page at apple.com/macosx:


"From G3 to Xeon, from MacBook to Xserve, there is just one Leopard"

And now, don't *you* look silly because that quote is NOT on Apple's Leopard pages anymore.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Here is some stuff I found out. The Finder lets you view column view by any other sort order.

I went to post a new reply and closed the tab by mistake before I hit submit. How awesome is this!?


And finally:




Brushed metal now looks like this:



Spotlight is still annoying. It is also an application in the apps folder:



Expose is an app.

Dock works as spring loaded folder if you drag a file on a folder in the dock.

[MartiNZ]

Oh yes, I approve of all of those! The number of times I have quit Safari with tabs open!

The new brushed metal seems quite reminiscent of the aqua unified hmmm.

Spring-loaded dock = omg finally! Sorts in column view as well. Is it easier to save view settings in the Finder consistently?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Simon

That's bullsh!t.

10.0 was indeed usable. It just depended on what you wanted to do with it. I replaced two linux development boxes I had with 10.0. No problem. I used it a lot. Of course the subsequent 10.x updates brought significant improvements, but to say 10.0 was unusable is baloney.

Some of us like doing non-terminal type work with an OS. Some of like using it for entertainment too.

I hated OS 9 too, but at least you could do common stuff that didn't exist on 10.0. (A few things which I think made 10.0 unusable have already been said.) In reality, 10.0 was basically a public alpha or or less.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug

Some of us like doing non-terminal type work with an OS. Some of like using it for entertainment too.

Sure, fair enough. I was just putting a grossly exaggerated statement into proper perspective.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Simon

Sure, fair enough. I was just putting a grossly exaggerated statement into proper perspective.

Not an exaggeration at all. 10.0 was simply a tinkerer/developer OS.

Just about nobody in their right mind would try to market a OS without CD burning or DVD viewing as a usable prime time OS, even way back in 2001.

At best, 10.0 was a very early beta. The true far-along beta release didn't come until 10.1.0.

Originally Posted by Simon

I don't know about you, but I can take my external FW HDD to another place just as easy as CD. Actually it's easier than 50 CDs, since that's about the comparable capacity.

? I've been using DVDs for backup for years. And I would never trust permanent backups to hard drives, unless I had several secondary backups, like I do with DVDs.

[Simon]

Umm, whatever. I consider "10.0 was completely unusable" a gross exaggeration and I've mentioned an example why. You may see that differently. But since this is a thread about Leopard, I suggest we just drop it. It's history anyway.

[pheonixash]

Originally Posted by Eug

Not an exaggeration at all. 10.0 was simply a tinkerer/developer OS.

Just about nobody in their right mind would try to market a OS without CD burning or DVD viewing as a usable prime time OS, even way back in 2001.

Umm...Windows?? No version before XP has CD Burning support built in. Neither was DVD Viewing. But then they weren't in their right mind.

[Franz]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Here is some stuff I found out. The Finder lets you view column view by any other sort order.

*snip*

Expose is an app.

Dock works as spring loaded folder if you drag a file on a folder in the dock.

Nice, I like all those changes. Have been wanting spring loaded folder in the dock for ages!

Can you post a screenshot of Automator 2.0 ?

[alphasubzero949]

Might be late to the party on this, but here is a posting that discusses the 'secret features' and was also picked up by AI.

Aside from resolution independence, I am still frankly not impressed. I lament the direction Apple is taking OS X.

Embedding Cocoa views into Carbon? WTF. Carbon was supposed to be transitional. How long has OS X been out to the public? 5 years? And beige boxers still haven't moved to Cocoa?

Grammar checker? And I thought Microsoft's implementation was annoying enough.

Apple couldn't leave good enough alone. Beef up 10.0, clean up the GUI, optimize the system, and eventually remove carbon...errr...the debug code(TM). $129 for wide-spread beta testing with the "most advanced" OS and another $129 for a version that was actually usable from the GUI (i.e. Jaguar). They had to bring about that God-awful brushed metal and then change it to some bastard child of Aqua and brushed metal. Hell, they can't even follow their own UI guidelines. They had to turn NeXTSTEP into a pile of poop because everyone got scared of seeing anything resembling UNIX in the GUI. They've bastardized the firewall to the point where you're not as secure as Apple assures you are (unless you set up custom rules). And now they want accounts to be shared? What is so difficult about setting up a common share point? How hard is it to set up a sandboxed account for guests?

How much of this crap is going to cost in system resources?

I'm weeping. No...better yet? I am going to be laughing my head off every time Apple breaks out their metal UNIX logo and tries to market themselves as UNIX-based. Bottom line? They have strayed way the fsck off course. I see a disaster waiting to happen with that shared account implementation. They might as well chmod -R 777 / and go back to the OS 9 way of user privileges while they're at it.

Come on Steve, kill the Finder for your precious Spotlight. You know you want to.

[blackbird_1.0]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

They had to turn NeXTSTEP into a pile of poop because everyone got scared of seeing anything resembling UNIX in the GUI. They've bastardized the firewall to the point where you're not as secure as Apple assures you are (unless you set up custom rules). And now they want accounts to be shared? What is so difficult about setting up a common share point? How hard is it to set up a sandboxed account for guests?

I agree. I really like NeXTStep's/OpenStep's GUI. I'd really like the have OpenStep's tabbed Dock.

And I agree about the share point. It'd make the life of my brother and I easier.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by pheonixash

Umm...Windows?? No version before XP has CD Burning support built in. Neither was DVD Viewing. But then they weren't in their right mind.

Who said anything about built-in? And Windows XP came out in 2001, the same year as 10.0.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Simon

Umm, whatever. I consider "10.0 was completely unusable" a gross exaggeration and I've mentioned an example why. You may see that differently. But since this is a thread about Leopard, I suggest we just drop it. It's history anyway.

It is an exaggeration because Eug didn't even own a Mac at the time as far as I remember.

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Might be late to the party on this, but here is a posting that discusses the 'secret features' and was also picked up by AI.

Aside from resolution independence, I am still frankly not impressed. I lament the direction Apple is taking OS X.

Yes, but those features are from the Leopard build distributed at WWDC, aren't they? I was under the impression the secret features were being withheld not just from the keynote, but from all the devs for right now. So they wouldn't have made tha build of Leopard either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, someone.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Franz

Nice, I like all those changes. Have been wanting spring loaded folder in the dock for ages!

Can you post a screenshot of Automator 2.0 ?

And spaces:

[Gavin]

Originally Posted by Simon

I don't know about you, but I can take my external FW HDD to another place just as easy as CD. Actually it's easier than 50 CDs, since that's about the comparable capacity.

Maybe from work to home or some such, but this is not practical if your are in say Chicago and your co-hosted server is in Atanta, or Germany.

In this case you're probably using rsync anyway. Although it would be nice to have a time machine like interface to restore items on your remote server. Maybe we'll see modules for Cyrus and MySQL.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

It is an exaggeration because Eug didn't even own a Mac at the time as far as I remember.

Yeah, because the OS was basically unusable.

[Gavin]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Embedding Cocoa views into Carbon? WTF. Carbon was supposed to be transitional. How long has OS X been out to the public? 5 years?

I don't think it is the plan anymore to kill off Carbon. There are just too many large complicated apps and expert programmers to simply kiss it off. Apple got hit with a big fat dose of reality. They are keeping it as a stable API while allowing it to take advantage of the newer goodies in Cocoa.

This way adobe, which understandably isn't going to budge on rewriting umpteen hundred thousand lines of code, can keep photoshop moving forward with OS X's latest tricks. The alternative is to have the Mac's 20 biggest applications stuck in the past, which ultimately hurts everybody.

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Grammar checker? And I thought Microsoft's implementation was annoying enough.

We can expect that it will be 23.5% less sucky. The standard Apple to MS suckiness conversion ratio.

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

... rant ... And now they want accounts to be shared? What is so difficult about setting up a common share point?

Ah, the standard "I have no immediate use for it so it totally sucks" argument. Touche!

Shared accounts allow you to set up a way for someone to log in and get at just one of your folders inside your home folder. Just think of it as a user but with no home folder. Combine that with the power of being able to set up any user to access any folder, just like NFS or even SMB. With any luck it will be as simple as right clicking a folder, choosing "share this folder", then clicking a checkbox or two to select which user or account can access it. Take you 9 seconds and you never leave the finder.

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

How hard is it to set up a sandboxed account for guests?

Ask your mom to try it and you'll have your answer.

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

I'm weeping. No...better yet? I am going to be laughing my head off every time Apple breaks out their metal UNIX logo and tries to market themselves as UNIX-based. Bottom line? They have strayed way the fsck off course. I see a disaster waiting to happen with that shared account implementation. They might as well chmod -R 777 / and go back to the OS 9 way of user privileges while they're at it.

So, the sky IS falling.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Embedding Cocoa views into Carbon? WTF. Carbon was supposed to be transitional.

Yeah, for like, a month or two. Then Apple decided it was supposed to be a full peer to Cocoa for people who wanted a more traditional application framework. Lots of functionality (e.g., custom menus) has been available only in Carbon ever since launch and continues to be that way even today.

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

They had to turn NeXTSTEP into a pile of poop because everyone got scared of seeing anything resembling UNIX in the GUI. They've bastardized the firewall to the point where you're not as secure as Apple assures you are (unless you set up custom rules). And now they want accounts to be shared? What is so difficult about setting up a common share point? How hard is it to set up a sandboxed account for guests?

Essentially, "I'm a Unix weenie and you should be too if you want to use a Mac"? No, it is not acceptable to have a horrible, user-unfriendly UI like Linux. If I wanted that, I would not be using a Mac. User-friendliness is the direction the Mac has taken all along. And an easy way of sharing stuff between accounts is something lots of users have been requesting for a long time.

EDIT: For clarity, I meant "Unix weenie" in the slang sense of somebody who is very comfortable in Unix. Not trying to be hostile or anything.

[Landos Mustache]

Something else interesting. If you set up a guest account it will have no password and when the user logs out it deletes everything they did (on purpose).

Anywho, it is obvious a new interface is coming as this developer preview is even a bigger inconstancy mess then 10.4.

They have this new unified look, glossy black (like in time machine), brushed metal, Pinstripes etc.

Also, when I ran backup the video performance was horrible. The starts stuttered and it brought the app forward in a low frame rate. I am running a dual G5 with 64 meg 9600 ATI card.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Yeah, for like, a month or two. Then Apple decided it was supposed to be a full peer to Cocoa for people who wanted a more traditional application framework. Lots of functionality (e.g., custom menus) has been available only in Carbon ever since launch and continues to be that way even today.

Was it even a "month or two"? The party line I had told was that Carbon was supposed to be a full peer right from the get go, but I have no inside info.

Essentially, "I'm a Unix weenie and you should be too if you want to use a Mac"? No, it is not acceptable to have a horrible, user-unfriendly UI like Linux. If I wanted that, I would not be using a Mac. User-friendliness is the direction the Mac has taken all along.

Quoted for truth.

[pastusza]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Embedding Cocoa views into Carbon? WTF. Carbon was supposed to be transitional. How long has OS X been out to the public? 5 years? And beige boxers still haven't moved to Cocoa?

Carbon is here to stay. You think Adobe, or Microsoft or Quark is going to take all their source code that's got 10+ years of code and port it to Cocoa and Objective C?

You can't take a Cocoa app and easily port it to Windows, and it would be difficult to share code between a Cocoa app written in Objective C and a MFC app written in Visual C++.

What Apple needs to do is provide a Cocoa framework for Windows, like the old YellowBox for Windows, so that developers could recompile Cocoa apps for Windows.

Then we'll see the big developers write apps in Cocoa.