[vmarks]

I have something to tell you.

I know now know where the nonsense goofball claim that Barack Obama is a crypto-secret-Muslim came from.

Andy Martin (also known as Andrew Martin-Trigona), of Illinois started this rumor.

Martin is a law school graduate, but was refused admission to the bar due to a "moderately severe character defect manifested by well-documented ideation with a paranoid flavor and a grandiose character."

He ran for Congress as a Democrat in Connecticut, where paperwork for one of his campaign committees listed as one purpose "to exterminate Jew power." He ran as a Republican for the Florida State Senate and the United States Senate in Illinois. When running for president in 1999, he aired a television advertisement in New Hampshire that accused George W. Bush of using cocaine.

Mr. Martin first started releasing press releases about Obama being a Muslim in 2004.

Mr. Martin isn't just opposed to Democrats, he ran as one. He isn't just opposed to Muslims, he harbors strong anti-semitic beliefs.

A motion he filed in a 1983 bankruptcy case called the judge "a crooked, slimy Jew who has a history of lying and thieving common to members of his race."

In another motion, filed in 1983, Mr. Martin wrote, "I am able to understand how the Holocaust took place, and with every passing day feel less and less sorry that it did, when Jew survivors are operating as a wolf pack to steal my property," Martin wrote in an April 21, 1983, personal bankruptcy proceeding.

In an interview, Mr. Martin denied some statements against Jews attributed to him in court papers, blaming malicious judges for inserting them.

Let me ask and answer why this ridiculous claim caught on.

The internet has a much lower burden of use - it's possible to get all kinds of wacko stuff out and about via youtube, message boards, facebook walls, and more. Shoot, even Al-Jazeera has a YouTube page for their particular brand of absurdity.

The benefit here is that just as there's a lower burden for that brand of nonsense, there's a lower burden for countering it.

There were only a few pieces of evidence ever in support of this nonsense claim made by this anti-semitic jerk.

(1) Barack Obama attended Indonesian schools as a child where learning the Koran was required, and he is said by people who knew him to have done well at this task.

(2) There are photographs of Barack Obama in traditional garb.

(3) Barack Obama's middle name is Hussein, which is a name more commonly associated with Arab or Muslim men than not.

(4) Some reports indicate that the Arab or Muslim world believes Obama is a Muslim and needs to hide it in order to be elected. Mr. Obama cites his lack of practicing as a Muslim as his justification for not having been a Muslim when he was a child and studied Koran, but it's worth knowing that Muslims don't really see practice as being important to the identity - if you're born to a patrilineal line of Muslim males, as Mr. Obama was, you're Muslim.

(5) Barack Obama's campaign has tempered their statements on this matter.
Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press wrote on January 24, 2007 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...400371_pf.html , that

Obama's mother, divorced from Obama's father, married a man from Indonesia named Lolo Soetoro, and the family relocated to the country from 1967-71. At first, Obama attended the Catholic school, Fransiskus Assisis, where documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim, the religion of his stepfather. The document required that each student choose one of five state-sanctioned religions when registering – Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic or Protestant.

Asked about this, Obama communications director Robert Gibbs responded by indicating to Pickler that

he wasn't sure why the document had Obama listed as a Muslim. "Senator Obama has never been a Muslim."

Two months later, Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times (available online in a Baltimore Sun reprint http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...s_nation_promo ) reported that the Obama campaign had retreated from that absolute statement and instead issued a more nuanced one: "Obama has never been a practicing Muslim."

(some of this was blogged by Daniel Pipes as well)

It's pretty much confirmed that Mr. Obama did pray in a mosque occasionally as a child, and was registered at his school as a Muslim.

At any rate, we can conclude that at some time, Mr. Obama converted to Christianity. This shouldn't bother anyone. Arguably, converts are more invested with their adopted faith than folks who've been raised in a faith with little investment in understanding why it is meaningful.

(5) The recent interview where Mr. Obama mis-spoke, saying "My Muslim faith," and was corrected by the interviewer Stephanopoulous who said "you mean, your Christian faith."
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politic...aith08.article

In conclusion, Barack Obama is a practicing Christian, married in a ceremony by Reverend Wright. He seems to have been a Muslim in the past, before he converted at some undetermined point in time.

The rumor claiming he still is one is originated by an anti-semitic person who is considered unstable enough to be denied practicing law.

This rumor was spread in part by Hannity on Hannity and Colmes. My suspicion is that Hannity, a staunch Israel supporter, didn't know his source was an anti-semitic mentally defective individual. Hannity probably didn't do any research into the background of Martin. That sort of laziness is beginning to seem characteristic of Hannity, who has plagiarized from right-wing blogs in the past. He may have done damage to his intended cause by trusting and trumpeting the very sort of ugliness and unnecessary comments that he has refuted in the past, both from Rev. Wright, or the Westboro Baptists.

[Wiskedjak]

At this point, I don't think it really matters who started it. What's important now is who believes it and perpetuates it.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

At this point, I don't think it really matters who started it. What's important now is who believes it and perpetuates it.

Unfortunately, you're right. Seeing some of the horrendously ignorant people, on both sides of the aisle, who believe something just because a friend, relative, neighbor, or coworker said it, or because they saw it on the internet, frightens me, and gives me great concern for the future of this country. When people like Sarah Palin, who panders to the typical Joe Six-Pack, and who thinks Budweiser is good beer, are possibly one step away from being President of the U. S., it is time for great consternation.

[tie]

I don't see what it matters who started it. It has now been picked up by the racists who form the Republican base, like Big Mac for example here. What's left of the Republican party after Bush doesn't care about facts or reality. McCain's campaign has nothing to do with reality now, and has everything to do with scaring people away from the black guy whose welfare plans (tax cuts for people making less than $250K) threaten the fabric of our democracy, and will turn us in a socialist state. It's telling that McCain's central theme of the debate, Joe the Plumber, was based on a fabricated story.

There are real people and real issues out there, not that McCain can be bothered to find them out. I don't think there are enough Americans dumb enough to think that Obama is a secret Muslim, or that a $5 million annual income puts you in the middle class, or that putting a new tax on health care benefits will do anything other than cut more people off health coverage---but who knows? this race is still close.

[Big Mac]

At this point I'd take a Constitutionally minded Muslim over Senators Barack Hussein Obama OR John Sidney McCain. Now call me a "racist," guys.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

This rumor was spread in part by Hannity on Hannity and Colmes. My suspicion is that Hannity, a staunch Israel supporter, didn't know his source was an anti-semitic mentally defective individual. Hannity probably didn't do any research into the background of Martin.

Perhaps he also didn't care? In either case, it's usually more important for the yellow press to pander their base rather than think things through.

[Big Mac]

OC, Hannity isn't a journalist, he's a commentator. He never claims otherwise.

[Buckaroo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvWcpa3fYYU

[Buckaroo]

Barack Hussein Obama started it.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

OC, Hannity isn't a journalist, he's a commentator. He never claims otherwise.

Where I come from, commentators are journalists as well.

[Big Mac]

You don't define it like Wikipedia does?

[OreoCookie]

Of course they give opinions on subject they are (presumably) knowledgeable on, but that doesn't change they contribute to journalism. Newspapers have them, good newspapers mark them as op-eds or so.

In the yellow press, the distinction between fact and opinion is blurred. And yes, Sean Hannity is in that category. I don't think Hannity chose to spread this bit, because of he associates himself with Martin (if he really is the source of this rumor). I think he chose to spread it, because it sells.

So please, stop with these wikipedia definitions and stay on topic. Have you changed your opinion on Obama, i. e. do you still believe Obama `is a Musim at heart'? Or has vmark's post done anything to change your opinion?

[Buckaroo]

Yes Barack Hussein Obama is Muslim at heart. He hates America and proves it in all his beliefs.

[Buckaroo]

He vows to change the world to Muslim.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Have you changed your opinion on Obama, i. e. do you still believe Obama `is a Musim at heart'? Or has vmark's post done anything to change your opinion?

No, vmarks's post is interesting but does not change my opinion. I think there's a very good chance he's still a Muslim at heart. Young children are very impressionable, and I think we can all agree that the Muslim education a young child would receive in a Muslim country would be one of heavy indoctrination. He also said that Reverend Wright brought him to his Christianity only 20 years ago. Which begs the question, what exactly was Obama's religion before he was brought as an adult to Christianity by that very hateful man? Was he an atheist? A non-committed Christian? Or was he a follower of the religion of his father (and step-father), the man he looked up to with such devotion and awe for so many years?

Regardless of his religion, I think there are substantive concerns about his ties to radicals, including radical Muslims. I think that there are substantive concerns about his true views on the Middle East versus the rhetoric he spouts on the campaign trail. I think there's a serious issue with his desire to try enemy combatants from the WoT in American criminal courts. I think that so much of his life is intentionally concealed from the public that people are naturally skeptical about him.

[Doofy]

What religion Barry is now is irrelevant.

What is relevant is whether his circumstances at birth are enough to make certain portions of the world see him as an apostate ("murtad fitri") and therefore treat him as a higher priority target than other people elected to the position.

It's, of course, all moot. The US is dying. Your choice of president now will only affect the speed of the demise - either quickly or very quickly.

[lpkmckenna]

Gee vmarks, thanks for clearing this up. Frankly, anyone with a functioning brain was aware that this "controversy" was stupid fear-mongering.

That fact that your well-articulated argument was ignored by Big Mac is no surprise either. You can't convincing the willfully self-deluded by logic.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

[/i] relevant is whether his circumstances at birth are enough to make certain portions of the world see him as an apostate ("murtad fitri") and therefore treat him as a higher priority target than other people elected to the position.

Oh Christ, tell me you don't really believe that.

[Doofy]

I thought I was in your ignore list, mckenna?

Haven't you got any idea at all about foreign relations?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I thought I was in your ignore list, mckenna?

I clear my ignore list from time to time. I just like to give myself a breather from rampant insanity, and most crazy posters will usually resume their medications by now.

Haven't you got any idea at all about foreign relations?

Do you always answer a question with another question?

[besson3c]

What I want to know is this: everybody seems to accept the notion that George W. Bush is a Christian. How do you really know that? What if he is Muslim, or some other religion? What if he is atheist and just pretends to be Christian? The same question can be asked of McCain.

Big Mac, what if McCain is not Christian, but a secret Muslim?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

No, vmarks's post is interesting but does not change my opinion. I think there's a very good chance he's still a Muslim at heart. Young children are very impressionable, and I think we can all agree that the Muslim education a young child would receive in a Muslim country would be one of heavy indoctrination. He also said that Reverend Wright brought him to his Christianity only 20 years ago. Which begs the question, what exactly was Obama's religion before he was brought as an adult to Christianity by that very hateful man? Was he an atheist? A non-committed Christian? Or was he a follower of the religion of his father (and step-father), the man he looked up to with such devotion and awe for so many years?

Regardless of his religion, I think there are substantive concerns about his ties to radicals, including radical Muslims. I think that there are substantive concerns about his true views on the Middle East versus the rhetoric he spouts on the campaign trail. I think there's a serious issue with his desire to try enemy combatants from the WoT in American criminal courts. I think that so much of his life is intentionally concealed from the public that people are naturally skeptical about him.

Do you look under your bed before you retire for the evening? Wow.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Do you always answer a question with another question?

Yes. Why?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What I want to know is this: everybody seems to accept the notion that George W. Bush is a Christian. How do you really know that? What if he is Muslim, or some other religion? What if he is atheist and just pretends to be Christian? The same question can be asked of McCain.

Big Mac, what if McCain is not Christian, but a secret Muslim?

NeoCons are only crypto-Christians. They pretend to be Christians and make promises that appeal to the "religious right," but that's only an electoral strategy. They don't actually care whether anti-abortion or anti-gay legislation actually passes, it's just posturing to fool the believers. The last Christian to lead the Republicans was Reagan.

McCain is the worst crypto-Christian ever. He switched to the Baptist denomination, apologized to the televangelists, and picked Palin all to gain the necessary evangelical voters to have a hope of winning. Scumbaggery.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

NeoCons are only crypto-Christians. They pretend to be Christians and make promises that appeal to the "religious right," but that's only an electoral strategy. They don't actually care whether anti-abortion or anti-gay legislation actually passes, it's just posturing to fool the believers.

Dammit, the world must be ending. I actually agree with mckenna about something.

[besson3c]

Do you agree with me too, Doofy?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Dammit, the world must be ending. I actually agree with mckenna about something.

Dammit, the world must be ending. I actually agree with Doofy about something.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Do you agree with me too, Doofy?

Don't be silly Bess. I said the world is ending, not the universe.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What I want to know is this: everybody seems to accept the notion that George W. Bush is a Christian. How do you really know that?

A Christian wouldn't lie.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

A Christian wouldn't lie.

Ahhh... but if Bush wasn't a Christian and said that he was, he could be lying since he was secretly not a Christian, right? Unless he was a Christian, then he would be telling the truth, but we wouldn't know if we suspected that he wasn't a Christian until he told us something that we knew was truthful, like "snow is cold", or "many people enjoy eating ice cream". If he wasn't a Christian, he would probably lie about these things, but it would be a trap and we would get him and then we'd all be laughing together!

[Chongo]

It's official now. St. BO
Spotted at a street fair at Hayes and Octavia in SF

[PaperNotes]

There's no doubt Obama took moneys from Fannie Mac when they already admitted they had problems and when politicians already knew the Chinese were heavy invested in that "bank".

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=usvG-s_Ssb0

It's amazing that the same Democrats who caused this banking problem are passing the blame to Bush.

[OreoCookie]

And the relation to the `rumors' that he is a secret Muslim is what exactly?

[besson3c]

Maybe Fannie Mac is also a secret muslim? With a name like that, they sure could be Muslim, you never know!