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Why people hate Amerikkka #3489 (Page 3)
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 24, 2010, 01:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Mine certainly would.
You missed the point of the question, and I don't get the stupid emoticon use anyway.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
This is true. I think also the threshold for tolerating unfavorable situations (abusive sigothers, alcoholics, unfaithful, etc) is much lower than in was in past thanks to increased geographic, economic, and social mobility - the latter vertical and horizontal. This as well acts to diminish the impact/desire to have a traditional family, which over time erodes some of the positive values associated with that family.
I think I mostly agree with this.

I think the tl;dr version would be: We now have the luxury to express and indulge in individuality.



Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
It was more of a lease and the mileage of that minivan is way over the limit. Once Obama gets it out of the ditch, he should hand the keys right back over to the dealership (our kids) and buy a friggin bike.

In other words, those acting under the guise of responsibility (social and economic) have overextended their reach to condition the average person to believe that such virtues are meant for politicians and authorities, and that they are infact embracing such virtues by buying a house and collecting government assistance to do so - as their politicians have enabled them to do.
Completely lost me, but government had nothing to do with what i was talking about.
     
Doofy  (op)
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Nov 24, 2010, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I think also the threshold for tolerating unfavorable situations (abusive sigothers, alcoholics, unfaithful, etc) is much lower than in was in past thanks to increased geographic, economic, and social mobility
Also, the threshold for identifying unfavourable situations is much lower.

M: "I don't like blue cars"
F; "My mom has a blue car. Why are you bullying me?!?"
M: "I'm not. I just don't like blue cars"
F: "There you go again! I'm going to ditch you and find a real man who loves me for who I am. And then I'm going on Oprah to diss you so no woman will ever fall for your sorry ass again!"

Overblown for effect, but you get the drift.
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besson3c
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Nov 24, 2010, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Overblown for effect, but you get the drift.

Not really, no...
     
CreepDogg
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Nov 24, 2010, 02:56 PM
 
So then we're saying that an increase in individual liberty leads to a decrease in traditional family values? Interesting...
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 24, 2010, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
So then we're saying that an increase in individual liberty leads to a decrease in traditional family values? Interesting...
Not quite. I won't speak for everyone else, but I'm saying that an increased ability to live individually (economically) leads to a decrease of traditional family values.
     
CreepDogg
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not quite. I won't speak for everyone else, but I'm saying that an increased ability to live individually (economically) leads to a decrease of traditional family values.
I guess I don't really see the difference between that and individual liberty (granted economic freedom is only a component, but still...)
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
I guess I don't really see the difference between that and individual liberty (granted economic freedom is only a component, but still...)
Well, we live quite differently compared to 150 years ago, and I don't see that it has much to do with individual liberty changing.
     
Doofy  (op)
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Not really, no...
That's to be expected.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
CreepDogg
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well, we live quite differently compared to 150 years ago, and I don't see that it has much to do with individual liberty changing.
I would say that having (and being aware of) more options is living with more individual liberty.
     
besson3c
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
That's to be expected.

Your face is to be expected.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepDogg View Post
I would say that having (and being aware of) more options is living with more individual liberty.
OK, this is a case of context/interpretation. When I say individual liberty, I'm talking about liberty as provided by the rule of law. That's why I take about economic ability, because I believe that is one of the important specific changes.
     
CreepDogg
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
OK, this is a case of context/interpretation. When I say individual liberty, I'm talking about liberty as provided by the rule of law. That's why I take about economic ability, because I believe that is one of the important specific changes.
Fair enough. Yeah, I don't really think of liberty only in terms of what rule of law does or doesn't provide. I'd agree legal liberty hasn't changed much, but overall liberty has. And we live differently largely because of that.
     
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Nov 24, 2010, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
But, there are still millions of traditional Americans, mainly in the South and Midwest, who are holding onto what America used to be, and will fight to hang onto their values.
Fighting to hold onto bigotry and hatred isn't noble or honorable, and I wouldn't ever consider it to be the spirit of America.
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andi*pandi
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Nov 24, 2010, 07:15 PM
 
While it would be nice to afford life with one salary so someone could stay home, there's no need to rely on gender stereotypes. Technology has improved. Are "traditional values" reliant on the old roles? Who is threatened by progress? Men no longer *need* to chop trees to build houses, hunt game to feed the family, or plow the fields by hand, just as women don't need to stand in a stream and beat the washing, or hand-churn butter, or sew everyone's clothes by hand. What used to take days now takes minutes or is easily available at Amazon.com.

What to do with all that free time? Evolve.

Maybe some people still like to do the old things, maybe some people don't. Plenty of men and women enjoy knitting clubs, cooking from scratch, and hunting. Does that mean they have traditional values? Or because I put both genders, does that mean they don't?
     
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Nov 24, 2010, 07:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
While it would be nice to afford life with one salary so someone could stay home, there's no need to rely on gender stereotypes. Technology has improved. Are "traditional values" reliant on the old roles? Who is threatened by progress? Men no longer *need* to chop trees to build houses, hunt game to feed the family, or plow the fields by hand, just as women don't need to stand in a stream and beat the washing, or hand-churn butter, or sew everyone's clothes by hand.
Well one thing is still pushing the same old gender stereotypes, pregnancy (and to a lesser extent nursing). From a career advancement perspective, one parent taking an extended leave is less detrimental than both doing so, so given that the female has taken leave for pregnancy, if one person's career must suffer that choice has already been made. Of course psychologically, sharing the burden has its value too.

What used to take days now takes minutes or is easily available at Amazon.com.
Arguably, raising a child takes longer than ever, because there is ever more knowledge to be transmitted to it.

Does that mean they have traditional values? Or because I put both genders, does that mean they don't?
IMO Mr. Mom is antique enough by now to be "traditional"
     
ebuddy
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Nov 24, 2010, 08:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Would they rather be at home than at the workplace.
Working women.

I really don't think it's either, but I would point to it as another factor in the decline of the "traditional" family.

Now that I think of it, I think we can add the increased mobility (geographical and economic) to the mix, too.
What familial aspects are in decline and what do you mean by traditional?

My mistake. But I would disagree that the term traditional has some kind of ownership over the concept of responsibility.
okay.
ebuddy
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 24, 2010, 09:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Well one thing is still pushing the same old gender stereotypes, pregnancy (and to a lesser extent nursing).
Absolutely, women should keep the traditional responsibilities of pregnancy and nursing. I have been searching Amazon for that perfect parenting book that explains how to raise your kids in just 3 minutes each day and haven't found it.

Seriously, I see your point, and appreciate your voice. Sometimes I feel conflicted about this. On one hand, I absolutely wanted to stay home more with my kids when they were young, but didn't have enough money or maternity leave. I envied our European friends there. On the other, I see no reason why 3 months or even a year off work would stall my career path to the extent that I should just abandon it merely because I'm female. Each family has to decide who the primary breadwinner is, and right now in my house that's me.

Now, where's that lottery ticket...
     
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Nov 25, 2010, 01:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Actually, I pointed out that my family is the very embodiment of traditional values as are plenty of people living in places that don't have Nascar flags hanging on their trailer park door. If you want to keep your retarded delusion that American values stem from one subset of people then bravo, you have more then just your morals shoved up your ass.
I'm happy that your family (and yourself?) embody all that is traditional. Very impressive.

(1) I described people who live by traditional values as those who live within their means, are religious, work hard, etc. (2) I then pointed out that they live in multiple regions within the United States, and comprise a larger part of the United States than many are willing to recognize.

The description I gave is far too amorphous to be qualified as a "subset," or, arguably, even a "set" of people.

You proceeded to target a subset of people (Nascar-loving mobile home occupants) and, by way of comparison, imply that this subset of people embody what (I said) is traditionally American (which you and I know they don't--why would I argue that trailerpark residents embody American tradition? What tradition could that possibly be?).

You then turned around and claimed that the true or real traditions upon which the nation as founded had something to do with Massachusetts and gays marrying, and added in a bit of anecdotes about your troubled background.

What exactly are you trying to say, sek? Is it anything worth even mentioning, or is it just more profanity?
     
sek929
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Nov 25, 2010, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
What exactly are you trying to say, sek? Is it anything worth even mentioning, or is it just more profanity?
You said:

Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
But, there are still millions of traditional Americans, mainly in the South and Midwest, who are holding onto what America used to be, and will fight to hang onto their values.
Emphasis mine. You made an incorrect assumption that the South and Midwest have more moral people than other areas. What are YOU trying to say? I simply threw your own BS back at you, don't complain when it sticks.
     
Kerrigan
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Nov 26, 2010, 02:11 AM
 
My apologies sek, I was having a bad day when I wrote that reply.

Anyways Doof, lay off Amerika, you know deep down you love the place.
     
sek929
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Nov 26, 2010, 03:21 AM
 
It's all good, I've been having a bad month
     
Athens
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Nov 27, 2010, 06:53 PM
 
Well technically the world fat population can be partially blamed on US companies. There is only 2 major things the US exports to the world. That is food and entertainment. US companies are creating worse and worse food. Removing fiber and using High Fructose Corn Syrup for longer shelf life for transport and cheaper sweeter then sugar Cain sugar.
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Dec 22, 2010, 02:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Obesity is a global, developed world problem.
Japan, Hongkong, Singapore aren't developed enough?

Obesity is a cultural problem.
     
ghporter
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Dec 22, 2010, 07:57 AM
 
The cultural component of epidemic obesity where I am is a combination of factors. Low incomes, poor family/parenting skills, lack of perceived options, genetic predisposition, others. This appears to be the first time in history that poverty goes hand-in-hand with obesity.

In many instances, the obesity in a family comes from dependence on inexpensive fast food for numerous meals through the week-the old "supersize me" issue. This appears to the family to be a "quick and easy" way to feed the family inexpensively, but that's an illusion; it is not cost efficient on the top level of "food budget," and becomes more and more expensive when health issues crop up. The problem is that families such as this have no skills for planning and managing meals-or budgets. It's a major family/parenting skill issue.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Dec 22, 2010, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sealobo View Post
Japan, Hongkong, Singapore aren't developed enough?

Obesity is a cultural problem.
You described the broad cause, I described the broad geographical area. Somewhere the two overlap. Congratulations, we're both right.

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The Final Dakar
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Dec 22, 2010, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
You described the broad cause, I described the broad geographical area. Somewhere the two overlap. Congratulations, we're both right.
I suggest celebrating over dinner.
     
Laminar
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Dec 22, 2010, 11:09 AM
 
In Defense of Food claims that obesity follows the Western diet. Whenever an area adopts the mass-produced, highly-processed foods common in a Western diet, obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, etc. follow shortly after.
     
Athens
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Dec 22, 2010, 11:32 AM
 
YouTube - Sugar: The Bitter Truth

Its a hour and a half long, goes into some technical stuff but in my opinion the point is proved with out a doubt. Its a video by UCTV (University of California TV) by RObert Lustig MD and UCSF Professor argues that HFCS is the direct cause of obesity in the US and around the world. He supports his claims with undeniable facts and statistics and is extremely interesting to watch.
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Dec 22, 2010, 01:22 PM
 
Hey Doofy, back at ya!



Stones, glass houses, ya know.
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Doofy  (op)
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Dec 22, 2010, 01:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
Hey Doofy, back at ya!



Stones, glass houses, ya know.
Heh. Good job that show wasn't made in Amerika - they'd have had to call it "Two Normal-Sized Ladies".
I know, I know. We're just as lardy as you fat boys these days. Still, a joke's a joke.
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Sealobo
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Dec 22, 2010, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
You described the broad cause, I described the broad geographical area. Somewhere the two overlap. Congratulations, we're both right.
eh... no.
     
ghporter
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Dec 22, 2010, 10:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
In Defense of Food claims that obesity follows the Western diet. Whenever an area adopts the mass-produced, highly-processed foods common in a Western diet, obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, etc. follow shortly after.
Over-processed, mass-produced food is not a hallmark of "Western" diets. It's a hallmark of CHEAP diets in SOME PARTS of SOME Western cultures. As i mentioned earlier, some parts of some U.S. cultures practically subsist on the lowest common denominators of fast food-with obesity producing results. Side-by-side with these cultural segments are segments that do NOT subsist on fast food of any kind and wind up much healthier-despite the basic cultural similarities and roots shared by these segments.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Athens
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Dec 22, 2010, 11:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Over-processed, mass-produced food is not a hallmark of "Western" diets. It's a hallmark of CHEAP diets in SOME PARTS of SOME Western cultures. As i mentioned earlier, some parts of some U.S. cultures practically subsist on the lowest common denominators of fast food-with obesity producing results. Side-by-side with these cultural segments are segments that do NOT subsist on fast food of any kind and wind up much healthier-despite the basic cultural similarities and roots shared by these segments.
HFCS while not invented by America, it was commercialized by American companies as a cheaper sweeter source of sugar which is now in almost all food. The US government subsidized corn crops which helped set the wheels in motion for this terrible sugar. Because corn is also a commodity this subsidization created excess corn production which also resulted in the lowering of the value of corn world wide. This in turn resulted in great harm for food production in other countries which now could not compete with price making corn an unprofitable product all over the world. This is America's contribution to the world. The 2 largest exports of the United States to the rest of the world is Entertainment and Food.
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