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Pharmacist's Rights
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subego
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Mar 8, 2011, 12:23 PM
 
Should you be able to refuse to give someone a prescription on religious grounds?

Philosophically, I think yes. Practically, I think this disproportionally affects poor people, who lack the mobility of those with more wealth.

What sayeth the board?
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 8, 2011, 12:26 PM
 
This strikes me as, if you don't like what the job entails (or if it conflicts with your religion), don't take the job.
     
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Mar 8, 2011, 12:37 PM
 
^^^^ Agreed.

OAW
     
olePigeon
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Mar 8, 2011, 12:52 PM
 
What Dakar said.
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subego  (op)
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Mar 8, 2011, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This strikes me as, if you don't like what the job entails (or if it conflicts with your religion), don't take the job.
Philosophically I agree. Practically, people do it anyway, and I'm pretty sure it'd be illegal to try and stop them.
     
olePigeon
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:14 PM
 
If I can't trust a pharmacist to give me what I need, how can I trust them not to poison me? What if their religion requires them to kill someone because they're a heathen? Instead of contraception, the bastard gives a woman arsenic.

If they have religious objections, they shouldn't be doing that job.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
Chongo
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:16 PM
 
It's not pharmacist only, but pharmacies as well.
Plan B Pill - Pharmacists can't refuse Plan B pill, appeals court says - Los Angeles Times
Pharmacists are obliged to dispense the Plan B pill, even if they are personally opposed to the "morning after" contraceptive on religious grounds, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.

In a case that could affect policy across the western U.S., a supermarket pharmacy owner in Olympia, Wash., failed in a bid to block 2007 regulations that required all Washington pharmacies to stock and dispense the pills.
The board later reversed itself.
OLYMPIA, Wash. — In a stunning reversal, the Washington State Pharmacy Board has decided to allow pharmacists with conscientious objections to filling certain prescriptions to refer patients to other nearby pharmacies.
Pharmacy Board Reverses Itself on Right of Conscience Case | News | NCRegister.com

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This strikes me as, if you don't like what the job entails (or if it conflicts with your religion), don't take the job.
This also affects doctors and nurses who do not want to participate sterilization and abortions

Target and cab companies have been dealing with this for some time.
Target shifts Muslims who won’t sell pork - Business - Consumer news - U.S. business - msnbc.com
MINNEAPOLIS — Muslim cashiers at some local Target stores who object to ringing up products that contain pork are being shifted to other positions where they don’t need to, the discount retailer said Saturday.
The Star Tribune reported this past week that some Muslim cashiers at local Targets had declined to scan pork products such as bacon because doing so would conflict with their religious beliefs. They would ask other cashiers to ring up such purchases, or sometimes customers would scan those items themselves, the newspaper reported.
The also refused to ring up alcohol. Muslim cab drivers were asking fares at airports or stores what was in their bags. If they had alcohol, or pork products, they would refuse to take them. They were also refusing to take fares with guide dogs.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:17 PM
 
Things I didn't find in your post: Your opinion.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:19 PM
 
Much ado about nothing. The public is not entitled to these services. If a pharmacist says, "I will not fill Plan B prescriptions," well, that's that. Find another one who does. Hopefully the one who won't will go out of business.

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The Final Dakar
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Much ado about nothing. The public is not entitled to these services. If a pharmacist says, "I will not fill Plan B prescriptions," well, that's that. Find another one who does. Hopefully the one who won't will go out of business.
Do people even have to use religion as a reason to refuse filling the prescription?
     
SpaceMonkey
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Do people even have to use religion as a reason to refuse filling the prescription?
Laziness, "out to lunch," and "on vacation" would also be acceptable excuses.

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subego  (op)
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
If I can't trust a pharmacist to give me what I need, how can I trust them not to poison me? What if their religion requires them to kill someone because they're a heathen? Instead of contraception, the bastard gives a woman arsenic.

If they have religious objections, they shouldn't be doing that job.
I think where the line should be drawn is a legit question, but we both know there's already a legal framework in place which addresses your example concern, whether it be a pharmacist or not.
     
Chongo
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Things I didn't find in your post: Your opinion.
Yes, I believe they have a right to refuse to fill or even stock "plan b" abortifacients. There are plenty of pharmacies that will fill those prescriptions. That is one of the reasons the board revered itself.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Much ado about nothing. The public is not entitled to these services. If a pharmacist says, "I will not fill Plan B prescriptions," well, that's that. Find another one who does. Hopefully the one who won't will go out of business.
As I implied in my OP, it wouldn't be an issue for a lot of people, but what about someone who's dirt poor, living in BFE?

I also don't see whether the public entitlement issue is so cut and dried. It seems odd to me that you'd be entitled to an abortion, but not entitled to a prescription given by a doctor. No?
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think where the line should be drawn is a legit question, but we both know there's already a legal framework in place which addresses your example concern, whether it be a pharmacist or not.
That reminds me, in what will be a too vague to be anything close to useful post, wasn't there a controversy in the past year or two over a (I think religious) hospital in the states refusing a patient a procedure? It may have had to do with an abortion to save the life of the mother.

Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
There are plenty of pharmacies that will fill those prescriptions. That is one of the reasons the board revered itself.
Um, I don't think so.
The decision to reverse course on the regulation was prompted by a realization that this legal battle could continue for another three years or more, according to the state Attorney General Rob McKenna’s spokeswoman, Janelle Guthrie.
They tapped out.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I also don't see whether the public entitlement issue is so cut and dried. It seems odd to me that you'd be entitled to an abortion, but not entitled to a prescription given by a doctor. No?
I'm probably overstating it, but isn't the pharmacist essentially executing the will of the doctor?
     
Chongo
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:53 PM
 
Do doctors still take the Hippocratic Oath?
The Hippocratic Oath
(Modern Version)

I SWEAR in the presence of the Almighty and before my family, my teachers and my peers that according to my ability and judgment I will keep this Oath and Stipulation.

TO RECKON all who have taught me this art equally dear to me as my parents and in the same spirit and dedication to impart a knowledge of the art of medicine to others. I will continue with diligence to keep abreast of advances in medicine. I will treat without exception all who seek my ministrations, so long as the treatment of others is not compromised thereby, and I will seek the counsel of particularly skilled physicians where indicated for the benefit of my patient.


I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous. I will neither prescribe nor administer a lethal dose of medicine to any patient even if asked nor counsel any such thing nor perform the utmost respect for every human life from fertilization to natural death and reject abortion that deliberately takes a unique human life.
the original translation from greek
I WILL FOLLOW that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give a woman a pessary to produce abortion.
WITH PURITY, HOLINESS AND BENEFICENCE I will pass my life and practice my art. Except for the prudent correction of an imminent danger, I will neither treat any patient nor carry out any research on any human being without the valid informed consent of the subject or the appropriate legal protector thereof, understanding that research must have as its purpose the furtherance of the health of that individual. Into whatever patient setting I enter, I will go for the benefit of the sick and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief or corruption and further from the seduction of any patient.

WHATEVER IN CONNECTION with my professional practice or not in connection with it I may see or hear in the lives of my patients which ought not be spoken abroad, I will not divulge, reckoning that all such should be kept secret.

WHILE I CONTINUE to keep this Oath unviolated may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art and science of medicine with the blessing of the Almighty and respected by my peers and society, but should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse by my lot.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 8, 2011, 01:58 PM
 
Where in God's name did you find that version? This appears to be the standard.

THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH: MODERN VERSION

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
     
Chongo
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Mar 8, 2011, 02:01 PM
 
Hmm, should have checked wikipedia first eh. Still the original translation is the same
Hippocratic Oath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.
I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.
In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.
All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.
If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.
     
olePigeon
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Mar 8, 2011, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Do doctors still take the Hippocratic Oath?
Some doctors do, but they haven't used that version for quite a while. Pharmacists do not.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
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andi*pandi
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Mar 8, 2011, 02:08 PM
 
What is licensing like for a pharmacist? Is there any other kind of standardization?

I think it could be up to employers to set their policies, and that would leave independent pharmacists the right to not stock certain things. That's the libertarian side of me speaking. Let the market decide if their ideology is worth it.

Otherwise, I think it's as foolish as the muslim checkout guys at Target not touching a bag of pork rinds.
     
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Mar 8, 2011, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As I implied in my OP, it wouldn't be an issue for a lot of people, but what about someone who's dirt poor, living in BFE?

I also don't see whether the public entitlement issue is so cut and dried. It seems odd to me that you'd be entitled to an abortion, but not entitled to a prescription given by a doctor. No?
You are not entitled to an abortion. At least, a hospital is not obligated to offer you one as part of their services. As far as I know, the issues about doctors refusing to perform abortions have been about if, when a hospital will perform an abortion and the doctor assigned to the case refuses out of religious grounds, the hospital is allowed to fire them or otherwise retaliate.

Unfortunately, if you live in a rural area and none of the nearby pharmacies will offer some specific service, I think you are SOL. Just as you would be if you are trying to find some specific produce and none of the grocery stores have it. I see no way to force a pharmacy to stock a specific medication without a more substantial integration of pharmacies into a national health care system.

All of this completely ignores whatever professional obligations pharmacists may have agreed to as part of their training and professional memberships. I am totally ignorant on those issues. If there are professional consequences for pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions in some circumstances, so be it.

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Mar 8, 2011, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
If I can't trust a pharmacist to give me what I need, how can I trust them not to poison me? What if their religion requires them to kill someone because they're a heathen? Instead of contraception, the bastard gives a woman arsenic.

If they have religious objections, they shouldn't be doing that job.
You say the same thing to and about the Muslim checkout girl who refuses to ring up your pork chops - on the SAME grounds?
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Mar 8, 2011, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
You say the same thing to and about the Muslim checkout girl who refuses to ring up your pork chops - on the SAME grounds?
The Muslim checkout girl was moved to a job where her religious views didn't conflict with what she's doing. The muslim girl also didn't prepare the pork for me. My livelihood also isn't dependent on pork. It's less likely to affect me if the cashier doesn't sell me pork chops than blood pressure medicine.
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Shaddim
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Mar 8, 2011, 09:10 PM
 
They have the right not to dispense drugs that they are morally opposed to, and the pharmacy has a right to can you for not doing it.

IMO, you can do whatever the hell you want, if you're willing to accept the consequences.
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Eug
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Mar 9, 2011, 01:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Where in God's name did you find that version? This appears to be the standard.
Except that isn't really the Hippocratic Oath. It's just an oath. And most doctors don't take that either anyway.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 01:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Do doctors still take the Hippocratic Oath?
It's been changed by Obama with the new Health Care Reform.

No it's called the Hypocrite Oath, because you gotta pretend that things got better even though it got worse.

-t
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 03:10 AM
 
Pharmacists are totally unnecessary in their current form (in the USA at least).
Everything should be sold over the counter.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 03:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This strikes me as, if you don't like what the job entails (or if it conflicts with your religion), don't take the job.
Yeah, what he said.

BUT... what if the rules changed after you'd chosen your profession and spent years in school?
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 09:22 AM
 
This is all fine and good, until a vegetarian working at McDonald's refuses to serve hamburgers or a pacifist linebacker refuses to tackle a quarterback.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Except that isn't really the Hippocratic Oath. It's just an oath. And most doctors don't take that either anyway.
Well, as much as I'd like to see doctors swear to Apollo, I don't see that happening. Everything gets updated, and not unnecessarily, I might add.

Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
It's been changed by Obama with the new Health Care Reform.

No it's called the Hypocrite Oath, because you gotta pretend that things got better even though it got worse.

-t
Man, what a broken useless record.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
BUT... what if the rules changed after you'd chosen your profession and spent years in school?
Eh, I'm sure somewhere on this forum someone's written you're not guaranteed the right to work in whatever profession you choose.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well, as much as I'd like to see doctors swear to Apollo, I don't see that happening. Everything gets updated, and not unnecessarily, I might add.
My point is that most doctors don't swear to such meaningless oaths anyway. They're basically irrelevant.

More important is licencing and laws, not some oath made up by some guy in a university and which has no legal bearing whatsoever.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
My point is that most doctors don't swear to such meaningless oaths anyway. They're basically irrelevant.
You should probably direct that at the guy who brought it up then.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 10:41 AM
 
I have no legal problem with Pharmacies refusing to dispense certain drugs, but I won't darken the doors of any Pharmacy that refuses, and will tell friends and family to do the same.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 9, 2011, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
You are not entitled to an abortion. At least, a hospital is not obligated to offer you one as part of their services. As far as I know, the issues about doctors refusing to perform abortions have been about if, when a hospital will perform an abortion and the doctor assigned to the case refuses out of religious grounds, the hospital is allowed to fire them or otherwise retaliate.

Unfortunately, if you live in a rural area and none of the nearby pharmacies will offer some specific service, I think you are SOL. Just as you would be if you are trying to find some specific produce and none of the grocery stores have it. I see no way to force a pharmacy to stock a specific medication without a more substantial integration of pharmacies into a national health care system.

All of this completely ignores whatever professional obligations pharmacists may have agreed to as part of their training and professional memberships. I am totally ignorant on those issues. If there are professional consequences for pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions in some circumstances, so be it.
I was simplifying here.

What you have is federal money[1] being dispensed to support abortion clinics in BFE[2]. I was also simplifying in the sense that a perfect analogy to this would be to let pharmacists dispense as they desire, and then have federally funded pharmacies in BFE which cater to everyone.


[1] Federally funded abortions are supposedly illegal by way of the Hyde Amendment, but let's call a spade a spade here, all the Hyde Amendment does is make for some creative bookkeeping. By any reasonable definition, a certain percentage of abortions are federally funded.

[2] My understanding of the rationale behind something like Planned Parenthood taking government money is to subsidize clinics in places without the population to make them profitable. Like BFE. Just to be clear, I support that.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
The Muslim checkout girl was moved to a job where her religious views didn't conflict with what she's doing. The muslim girl also didn't prepare the pork for me. My livelihood also isn't dependent on pork. It's less likely to affect me if the cashier doesn't sell me pork chops than blood pressure medicine.

#1 No "she" hasn't considering it's an entire group of people who filed the class action suit, they were granted the right to wear latex gloves and treat you as if you are diseased because you are not Muslim.

and

#2 I submit your "livelihood" as in nutrition is MORE likely to affect you than whining about a religious objection to delivering you a post-coital abortion pill. (Not blood pressure medicine - forget your attempted redirect)

(Here's a hint: If the SAME Muslim was a pharmacist - they would have the SAME religious objection to the pill, too)

Not even a good try.


And, if there is any kind of ruling against said pharmacist, all they have to do is not bother to stock the drug in question - problem solved. Go to another store.
( Last edited by Macrobat; Mar 10, 2011 at 01:20 PM. )
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subego  (op)
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Mar 9, 2011, 03:16 PM
 
I don't think your nutrition is pork dependent.

Just sayin'.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 9, 2011, 03:19 PM
 
How dare you slander bacon.
     
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Mar 9, 2011, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well, as much as I'd like to see doctors swear to Apollo, I don't see that happening. Everything gets updated, and not unnecessarily, I might add.

Man, what a broken useless record.


Eh, I'm sure somewhere on this forum someone's written you're not guaranteed the right to work in whatever profession you choose.
No guarantee, of course, but the contract with society that you engaged by going to school and learning your profession has changed. Expect fewer & lower quality pharmacists, because even those who agree with the idea would be put off by the uncertainty.

See "doctors in Texas" or "doctors under Medicare" for examples. Same thing happens in academia, and in many fields we've ended up with a buncha losers as college professors when the really qualified folks have done other things.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 9, 2011, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
No guarantee, of course, but the contract with society that you engaged by going to school and learning your profession has changed. Expect fewer & lower quality pharmacists, because even those who agree with the idea would be put off by the uncertainty.
Good lord. This applies to any field. Are the only good pharmacists religious or something?
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 9, 2011, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
How dare you slander bacon.
Nutrition is like, alfalfa. I wouldn't put bacon in the same category with that shit, and for that matter, neither should you.
     
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Location: Raleigh, NC
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Mar 10, 2011, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't think your nutrition is pork dependent.

Just sayin'.
Don't believe I said it was, just as it is not post-coital-abortion pill dependent.
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