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Car Talk (Page 20)
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reader50
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Nov 22, 2019, 01:57 PM
 
Could be movie prop, or a fake top, used to test a frame and power train.

Or ... a prototype for drivers who like to drive fast, but dislike tickets. A sporty car that's radar-resistant, like the F-117.
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 22, 2019, 02:17 PM
 
When I want your opinion,-
I'll read it in your entrails
     
Laminar
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Nov 22, 2019, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
how much can it effectively haul? Cargo bed must not be any bigger than a subaru baja, and can it tow?
The bed is 6.5 feet, which is the standard length for a normal 2-door pickup. Most of the four door pickups you see in the suburbs have 5.5 foot beds. A "long bed" truck has an 8' bed.

He claims 3500lbs of payload capacity (passengers + cargo in the bed), an F150 maxes out at 2300lbs.

He claims 13,000lb towing (appropriately specced), which is more than any F-150, Silverado 1500, or Ram 1500.
     
sek929
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Nov 22, 2019, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I can’t really figure out what it’s for.
Assholes
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 22, 2019, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I can’t really figure out what it’s for.
This isn’t mine, but I like it:
It looks like something meant to drive a guy who's just privatized a country's water supply through a crowd of starving protesters.
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turtle777
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Nov 22, 2019, 10:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Looks like a jackass magnet.
What a f$&@ing joke. It will never go in mass production.

Peak Tesla.

-t
     
mindwaves
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Nov 23, 2019, 09:55 AM
 
First, Tesla has said that this car is not for everyone even before it is announced. Tesla is not planning it to be a mass produced car, at least because of its looks. Like someone to make such a different looking car such as this. Wonder if had any crumple zones as a sledgehammer can’t even dent it. I think small cars will just go underneath it.

Also, this car looks very very similar to space shuttles that I commonly drew on my homework papers when I was in 1st to second grade. I still draw such things to this day.
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turtle777
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Nov 23, 2019, 10:16 AM
 
Step 1: Design a piece of shit
Step 2: Manage expectations ("not for everyone")
Step 3: ???
Step 4: PROFIT!!!1!1!oneone

Problem is, Tesla hasn't figured out Step 3.
They can't even consistently make money on their "mass appeal" cars.

-t
     
reader50
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Nov 23, 2019, 01:44 PM
 
Funny looks aside, youtube reviews by truck people are showing a lot of enthusiasm. I don't think it's safe to write this one off.

I won't buy one personally, it's pricey. Oh, and I don't actually need a big truck.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 23, 2019, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
This isn’t mine, but I like it:
It looks like something meant to drive a guy who's just privatized a country's water supply through a crowd of starving protesters.
It’s a luxury technical.
     
turtle777
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Nov 23, 2019, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Funny looks aside, youtube reviews by truck people are showing a lot of enthusiasm..
Only Tesla fanbois.

But these guys already own three Teslas. Hardly the bunch of customers that will provide the future growth needed to justify these lofty stock valuations.

-t
     
reader50
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Nov 25, 2019, 02:51 PM
 
Apparently Tesla has a lot of fans. Or truck people do like it. 200,000 pre-orders, where someone placed a $100 deposit. That's $20+M on deposit. Small change by Tesla standards, but I'd be happy to hold it for them. Even at today's pitiful interest rates.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 25, 2019, 03:13 PM
 
The most seemingly rational arguments against it I’ve seen so far are its lack of modularity, and those sail pillars.
     
mindwaves
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Nov 25, 2019, 08:04 PM
 
Those sail fins are a rigidity requirement due to the bed being integrated with the cab, ala the Honda Ridgeline. Tesla has chosen to make it a design element and actually functional where the cover slides over it and in some models, will act as a giant solar panel. Great for when you are in the middle of nowhere and out of gas.

Personally I find it extremely ugly and the only people who are buying it are people who have image issues and want people to always look and point at them, like many of the Youtubers who always are pointing a camera at their faces and are attention whores.

I do, however, admire Tesla for pushing the design envelope and making such a polarizing design and not just a concept vehicle but rather a production vehicle. That said, I am picking up my Model 3 today after a long wait.
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subego  (op)
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Nov 25, 2019, 09:21 PM
 
Ooooh! Congratulations! Tell us all about it.

I likewise appreciate Tesla shaking things up. I don’t have stock, so it’s not that big a deal to me if this craters.

The big problem with the sail pillars is they look like they restrict a lot of access to the truck bed.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
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Nov 25, 2019, 09:41 PM
 
To me, the Cybertruck is the F117 vs the F22. Its super optimized to be easy to manufacture. I think there will be allot of novelty sales like the Deloreons they keep making. I bet they plan on iterative development and the looks will change as they learn how complex the origami can get. I already have a Model S and I'm not a truck guy. The farthest truck I've gone is liking the veritech looks of the FJ.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 26, 2019, 03:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
I do, however, admire Tesla for pushing the design envelope and making such a polarizing design and not just a concept vehicle but rather a production vehicle. That said, I am picking up my Model 3 today after a long wait.
I agree with this sentiment: finally, Tesla built a car that doesn't look boring. All of their current models (sans the original Lotus derivative) looked “shapeless” to me from the outside. Tesla's truck is extremely distinctive, and while I think that trucks are stupid and most people who buy one don't need them, I applaud Tesla for their courage.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 26, 2019, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Those sail fins are a rigidity requirement due to the bed being integrated with the cab, ala the Honda Ridgeline.
The Ridgeline has no pillars, which I understand to be a big selling point. I’m also told that’s only possible because it’s a unibody.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 26, 2019, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
and while I think that trucks are stupid and most people who buy one don't need them
Wat

I can see this being accurate about SUVs, but most people who have pickups haul things.
     
Laminar
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Nov 26, 2019, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I agree with this sentiment: finally, Tesla built a car that doesn't look boring. All of their current models (sans the original Lotus derivative) looked “shapeless” to me from the outside.
That's a feature, not a bug. They've been making the Model S for seven years now without a major visual refresh, and it has held up. It's recognizable without being outlandish, and it hasn't aged poorly like something more radical would have. Going with a simple, clean look has enabled them to save on the 3-4 year refreshes that all other automakers do.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
The Ridgeline has no pillars, which I understand to be a big selling point. I’m also told that’s only possible because it’s a unibody.
The old Ridgeline and Avalanche had those sail panels. The new Ridgeline has a bunch of extra structure where the cab meets the bed so they could eliminate those panels and pretend it's more like a real pickup.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Wat

I can see this being accurate about SUVs, but most people who have pickups haul things.
Come to the suburbs, where every other house has a four door F-150 that only hauls kids, and only when the wife absolutely can't do it in her Tahoe.
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 26, 2019, 11:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Come to the suburbs, where every other house has a four door F-150 that only hauls kids, and only when the wife absolutely can't do it in her Tahoe.
This.
The best rule of thumb I can discern in determining whether a truck is actually used for work, is if it's a diesel. Those are almost always work trucks.
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subego  (op)
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Nov 26, 2019, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Come to the suburbs
     
Laminar
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Nov 27, 2019, 08:54 AM
 
For the wildlife.

     
subego  (op)
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Nov 27, 2019, 10:47 AM
 
I could fit at least 8 of those in the bed of an F-150.
     
Laminar
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Nov 27, 2019, 11:00 AM
 
So here's a long, rambling tangent.

Wife got a new car recently and I put snow tires on it for the season. I joked about how I should have put some big, beefy mud tires on it so we could take it to a nearby offroad park and ramp it.

Then she said that we should buy an old beater and put mud tires on it and go offroading. Oh, and wouldn't it be great it we could go camping with the kids now that the youngest one is a little older?

Naturally I hit Craigslist immediately, with one beater in mind: Lincoln Aviator.

Following the success of the Navigator - in which Lincoln created a smash hit by just slapping some lipstick on the Expedition and calling it posh - Lincoln gussied up an Explorer to come up with the Aviator, which they sold from '03-'05. To differentiate it from the more bourgeois Explorer, they threw in the engine from the Mustang Cobra, a 300hp DOHC V8. Plus dual DVD screens from back when that would be impressive or useful, heated and cooled seats, full-time AWD, and a towing package good enough to tug 7100lbs. The best part? Depreciation. You can find them for under $4k all day, or even under $2k if you're willing to do a little work.

https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/c...009062072.html

The mechanicals are almost entirely common with the Explorer and Mustang, so any parts you need can easily be found for dirt cheap at your local parts store, a junkyard, or probably even just lying on the side of the road. They're horribly ugly looking, but that shouldn't matter from the inside. Except the interior is horribly ugly, too, so I guess there's no avoiding that.

The hitch is I have a three car garage and already own four cars. I'm not looking to make it five and end up street parking something, to the chagrin of my neighbors, so something else would have to go. I've been planning to get the '69 Cougar road-worthy for the past several summers, but never seem to get around to it. It runs and drives, the carpet and headliner are new, the seats are all cleaned up, the steering is rebuilt, it has new disc brakes all around, it should actually be a decent car. It just needs the windows installed, trim put on, and all of the other little bits and pieces put back together. I actually got the rear windshield installed this year, then immediately busted it trying to install its chrome trim. So what little motivation I had finally mustered up reflected the window: shattered.

But the plan was to sell the Cougar and use those funds to get an old truck, something like a '67-'72 F100. The same-era Chevy C10s are super hot right now and overpriced, but people have been slow to pick up on the Fords. Something old and cool and not necessarily perfect, but something I can use for Home Depot runs, hauling mulch and junk, and maybe pulling a car on a trailer.



Okay, so what if the offroad/camping/towing/tinkering/truck functions were all met by the same vehicle? Let's break down the requirements for each.

Offroad: Something that drives all four wheels. Even better is something with a two-speed transfer case, giving a low range. Something with a little aftermarket support for mechanical upgrades, like locking differentials and lifts and junk.

Camping: Carries four people and possibly a dog. Plus gear. Wife-friendly, so hopefully at least a little bit comfortable, and not especially stinky, loud, or garish.

Towing: Needs to be able to pull a car on a trailer. A car trailer is around 2000lbs and my race car is 3100lbs. So a 5000lb tow rating would be cutting it close, more is better, but I also don't need 10,000+ or a fifth wheel or any of that overkill.

Truck: Open bed. For loading and carrying things like engines, transmissions, other dirty car parts, motorcycles, and yard waste, nothing beats an open bed.

Tinkering: My garage isn't huge, so the smaller the better. I have a lift rated for 5000lbs. and if I could use it with this vehicle, that'd be ideal.

Cheap: This is an extra, technically unnecessary vehicle. This won't get me to work, won't make me any money, so it's gotta be cheap to buy and operate.

An old truck was instantly out, as it would only seat three people max, and the universe has so graciously granted me a family of four (plus a dog). Plus the old truck would likely be rear wheel drive, making it all but useless once the slightest whiff of white stuff hits the ground.

The four door + open bed requirement knocks out a lot of popular off-roaders like the 4Runner, any Jeep pre-Gladiator, Pathfinder. The "not-too-big" requirement knocks out a full-size four door truck.

That leaves me with small quad cab pickups:
- Tacoma
- Frontier
- Colorado
- Dakota
- Ridgeline

The Ridgeline is out immediately - it's a front wheel drive crossover at heart, so the ability to rock crawl or tow just isn't there.

The Dakota is out because it's a Dakota.

The Tacoma and Frontier are nice, but even the most ragged 250,000 mile examples are still fetching $7000+, and in both cases their manufacturers let their development languish. Their top specs are anemic 4.0L V6s wheezing out barely over 200hp.

The Colorado is interesting - its depreciation is much higher than the Japanese offerings - plenty of examples under $6k. Its inline 5 engine isn't any better than the competitor's V6s, but it was available with a V8. That's intriguing - V8 power in a small package is kind of my jam. But the V8s are mega rare and all well over $10k - Cars.com shows 6 for sale nationally vs. 250 of the I5 models. And the V8 still came with the sad 4 speed auto.

So now I'm thinking about V8s...V8 power would make towing extra easier, plus the additional oomph would help the thing not struggle if I ever went with bigger tires. Well here's another interesting option - Explorer Sport Trac.



It was available from '07-'10 with the V8 from the same era Mustang. Let's check our requirements:

Offroad: Rear is a Ford 8.8, front is a Dana 35 - that means I can get any kind of locker and any kind of gear ratios I want. It has a 2-speed transfer case for crawling, plus full-time AWD so it's actually useful in the snow. Six speed auto means a nice low first gear for a good crawl ratio, plus a steep overdrive for better highway fuel economy.

Camping: Seats five. Available in "Limited" trim with heated leather and the rest of the accoutrement to make the wife and her butt happy. Multiple in-bed storage bins for gear and supplies. Factory roof rack. Factory bed tie-down anchors. Factory bed cover for keeping dry stuff dry.

Towing: Tows 7000lbs in V8 trim. 6-speed auto makes finding the right gear while hauling much easier. And the '09-'10 models came with the beefy 6R80 transmission from the V8 Mustang and F150.

Truck: Open bed (barely). Enough to haul around some junk, but 4x8 plywood sheets would stick off the tailgate by a couple of feet. The rear window rolls down, so long 2x4s can be routed into the cab for effective transport.

Tinkering: Narrower than the wife's crossover. Curb weight of 4900lbs, so the lift is a go. Length of 210" makes it a tight fit in the garage, but possible. My BIL's Avalanche is 221" long and fit in the garage with the door closed, but I had to move the garbage and recycling cans out of the way, plus to get to the other side of it we had to climb through the back seat, there was no room front or back.

Cheap: Domestic depreciation for the win. Plus, like the Aviator above, it's made of extremely common Explorer, Ranger, and Mustang parts, so replacements are readily available. Bed is "composite" (plastic), so no issues with rust back there.

A first gen V6 Sport Trac is dirt cheap, under $3k all day. For a V8 version, prices are still a bit high - the selection under $6k is sparse, but it's there.

Maybe this is the motivation I need to get the Cougar back together and out the door this winter.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 27, 2019, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
This.
The best rule of thumb I can discern in determining whether a truck is actually used for work, is if it's a diesel. Those are almost always work trucks.
Dumb question... what’s the point of diesel other than it doesn’t blow up?

Made more sense to me when it used to be subsidized. Do diesel engines get better mileage?
     
Laminar
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Nov 27, 2019, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Dumb question... what’s the point of diesel other than it doesn’t blow up?

Made more sense to me when it used to be subsidized. Do diesel engines get better mileage?
- Better longevity - diesel engine blocks are historically overbuilt giant, heavy iron blocks
- Better low end power for pulling/hauling - they are rarely capable of revving over 4000rpm so they're not sporty, but they make nearly fully power from idle on up
- Better fuel efficiency under load - a gas engine can lose 50 or more percent of its fuel mileage when towing. Diesels typically lose less than 30%.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 27, 2019, 03:37 PM
 
Ah, good. All makes sense. Thank you!
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 2, 2019, 02:49 PM
 
Just a quick update on the Aquapel.

Had drizzle on Thanksgiving. Some smearing, but no chatter, so it looks like fresh blades helped somewhat.
     
amyacker
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Dec 3, 2019, 10:04 AM
 
Can they test drive each model? None of them are bad. The best value is likely the Model 3 at this point.
     
reader50
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Dec 3, 2019, 01:47 PM
 
They might be able to test each model, if you tell us who 'They' are. I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses?
     
andi*pandi
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Dec 3, 2019, 02:30 PM
 
Using my husband's pilot the last 2 days (closest to street means first to be shoveled out) and when leaving work I brushed snow of the right wiper, and the wiper came off in my hand. It's been held on without a clip for over a year. Just loosely on the wiper arm. I slid it back on, and while it does somewhat work, I cannot believe he's lived with this kludge so long!
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 4, 2019, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses?
They’d definitely want the truck.
     
andi*pandi
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Dec 4, 2019, 02:30 PM
 
Model 4.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 4, 2019, 02:38 PM
 
They lobbied for a Model 3:16.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 15, 2019, 01:13 AM
 
The rear lights on a Durango look like a Cylon, and it bothers me.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 19, 2019, 04:33 PM
 
Question about warming up the car.

I’ve got a little ceramic heater in my garage, so it’s usually around 70, but of course, right outside it can be something like 0.

Do I need to warm the car up in this situation, or is it already warm enough.
     
Laminar
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Dec 19, 2019, 05:25 PM
 
The first question is do you ever need to warm your car up? The answer is...complicated. It's pretty universally agreed that you should wail on a dead-cold engine. Oil gets thicker as it gets colder and doesn't flow as easily. Bouncing the thing off of redline with oil that flows like molasses is likely going to reduce your engine life. Engines are usually designed to operate around 200 degF coolant temperature. Oil temps are usually just a little bit higher than that. Modern oils can maintain viscosity at a wide range of operating conditions.

You'll see oils categorized by two numbers, usually something like 5W-20. A straight 30 weight oil has a certain viscosity at 0 degC (about 1250mm2/s) and a lower viscosity at 100 degC (about 13mm2/s). Here's the viscosity curve:



You can see that by the time the oil is at 30 degC (about 86 degF), the oil is almost as viscous as it will be at 100 degC. But down at 0degC, it's thiiiiiiick.

Multi-viscosity oils are able to act like different oils at different temperatures. Here's a 0W-30. At 0 degC it acts like a straight 0W oil. At 100 degC it acts like a straight 30W oil.



You can see that at 0 degC it's less than half as "thick" as the straight 30. And by 20 degC (68 degF) it's just about the same as full operating temp.

So warmup really depends on the starting temperature. Minus 40, 0, 50, or 100 all have different theoretical warmup requirements if your goal is to get the oil into its ideal viscosity range.

Another consideration - when the engine is cold, the ECU has to dump extra fuel in there because cold fuel doesn't vaporize as well. Too much fuel in the cylinders can condense back into liquid and wash oil off the cylinder walls and cause premature wear.

When it's really cold out - freezing or below - it usually comes down to two camps; let the car idle for a while then drive vs. drive the car right away, but gently.

Driving gently warms the car up more quickly than idling.

So in theory, extended idling means the car operates at colder temperatures for longer, and can possibly experience a little more wear.

If your engine oil is already at 70 degF from ambient temperature - let 'er rip. If the car is legit cold, drive gently right away, but wait until the temp gauge gets moving before you really lay into it.
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 19, 2019, 05:35 PM
 
Excellent answer! Thank you!

I actually have no idea what grade of oil they’ve been putting in. Edit: I assume they put in something which can deal with cold.
( Last edited by subego; Dec 19, 2019 at 06:05 PM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 19, 2019, 08:25 PM
 
Wouldn’t the best way of driving it gently be low-revving the engine in park? Say, 2K?
     
Laminar
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Dec 20, 2019, 09:50 AM
 
Excess heat generated by the engine is a function of load on the engine. More load, more power generated, more waste heat. Free-revving generates more heat than a plain idle, but not as much as driving and putting a load on the engine. OEM engine controls have the idle sit a bit higher after initial startup and come down after a bit. I have a friend that always waits for his car to come off of high idle before driving it.

At this point, it's all theoretical and the wear of each event so minute that it's hard to correlate any kind of early failure with a bad warmup procedure. I seem to remember BMW adding a lower redline cutoff to some cars (like from 7500 down to 6500 or something) when they're cold because people were beating on them and engines were failing. But that's a far cry from gentle driving.
     
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Dec 20, 2019, 11:55 AM
 
With a stick shift it's really hard to shift until the car warms up some. So gentle driving isn't really an option...
     
subego  (op)
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Dec 20, 2019, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Excess heat generated by the engine is a function of load on the engine. More load, more power generated, more waste heat. Free-revving generates more heat than a plain idle, but not as much as driving and putting a load on the engine. OEM engine controls have the idle sit a bit higher after initial startup and come down after a bit. I have a friend that always waits for his car to come off of high idle before driving it.

At this point, it's all theoretical and the wear of each event so minute that it's hard to correlate any kind of early failure with a bad warmup procedure. I seem to remember BMW adding a lower redline cutoff to some cars (like from 7500 down to 6500 or something) when they're cold because people were beating on them and engines were failing. But that's a far cry from gentle driving.
Thank you!

I’m definitely overthinking things (as I am wont to do).
     
reader50
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Dec 20, 2019, 03:21 PM
 
I've wondered about cold-engine warmup too. I've gone from letting it idle, to just driving immediately, but gently.

Thanks Lam, for some clear answers.
     
Thorzdad
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Dec 20, 2019, 04:59 PM
 
Most owners manuals for recent-vintage cars I've looked through usually say there's no need to warm the engine. Just start it and go.
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subego  (op)
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Dec 26, 2019, 02:31 PM
 
Anyone been losing faith in Waze?

For example, I shaved 5 minutes off my route prediction today by trusting my instincts instead.
     
Laminar
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Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Dec 26, 2019, 05:12 PM
 
My conspiracy theory is that they occasionally purposely take you down the wrong road just because they want data on that road.
     
reader50
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Dec 26, 2019, 08:03 PM
 
My pet conspiracy theory is those people who drive around town, to obstruct all the other drivers. You signal a turn, and the slowpoke ahead suddenly signals the same turn. So they can stay in your way, and win more points. They probably leave home, drive around town racking up points, then go home again. Without ever stopping anywhere else.

I sometimes signal a freeway offramp turn late, right before taking it. So the slowpoke ahead would have to make an unsafe swerve to keep obstructing. Got a dash cam too, in case they take the invitation. Youtube is waiting for the proof.
     
subego  (op)
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Jan 12, 2020, 10:46 PM
 
Waze finally managed to take me down the route I take on my own. I’ve used my galaxy brain to teach it a side street is often much faster than a main thoroughfare.
     
Doc HM
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Jan 13, 2020, 01:57 PM
 
So in our brave new automotive world of zero tailpipe emissions it turns out that Rolls Royce are booming. Sales in particular of their 3 tonne "**** you pauper" 4x4 idiot wagon are up as is the insanity of people with 32,000 times more money than sense sometimes doubling the price of their car by bespoking it, including paint with diamonds crushed into it, leather with stitching from a rose bred especially for rolls Royce so no other person can ever grow them (yes really) and someone with a planetarium complete with shooting stars embedded into the roof.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...ke-rolls-royce

I for one welcome our new fire resistant overlords.
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