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tae667 · Mar 20, 2004, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
Your forgetting one thing people, lower priced PC's (I call them yugos) DONT HAVE OSX, or iLife. When you buy a mac your money is going to the ENTIRE COMPUTER PACKAGE, not just the hardware, when will you people realize that?

Yes, OS X is superior, everyone in here agrees on that. I still think that iMacs costs too much for consumers. If I pay 2000 euros(2,456.20 USD) I expect best consumer device available, because there aren't that expensive consumer Wintels available. I can pay 100� extra for OS X, 200� for design and 200� for build quality and warranty/support, but if I pay premium, I want the fastest machine for consumers. Video editing requires power and I am not going to buy professional machine just for FCE or iMovie. iMac needs G5 ASAP, because I'll buy next Apple consumer desktop which is over 2x faster than my iBook G4 933.

It's not that every mac is overpriced, iBook has just about best price/quality ratio of all consumer laptops, eMacs are OK and dual PowerMacs are the best professional workstations. So is Xserve, but PowerBooks and iMacs needs an update or price drops.

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
If I had shelled out that much cash for an iMac I'd be trying to convince myself it's fast too.

In this quote you come off as valueing $1700 as alot of money, and perceive the iMac to be slow. So in one sentence you claim I overpaid alot of money for a slow computer, both are wrong. $1700 is not alot of money, at least to me...no Im not implying you dont have money, get with it...You really think I would care how much you could or could not afford? Im sure the same can be said about me, but I had to answer your post none the less, I just wanted to size up the arguement a little clearer.

Believe me when I say I was staring at the Dual G5 2Ghz machine for a good long while in a trance like state pondering if I should buy it, and the 23" Cinema Display right next to it. It was the most striking machine I had ever seen, and the power under the hood is amazing, I was so tempted just for the bragging rights and the moniker that would be on a pedastel in my living room for all to see as they entered my house, but my needs did not require such a machine, and I am way to grown up to really put much value in bragging rights. I chose the iMac for 2 reasons, I need a small form factor computer, and I needed a nice new screen, my CRT literally blew up last month. So as soon as I could tear myself away from the G5 I examined each and every Mac they had at the Apple store. I skipped past the eMacs quickly, I decided that a CRT was the past and I wanted to join the LCD crowd, so I was down to iBook, iMac, and Powerbook. I looked at the Powerbooks and I did not like the casing at all, they are sexy looking, but not my style, so now it was down to iBook or iMac. Well, this one took me an hour to figure out, both have HUGE bonuses to them and makes it hard to choose only 1 of them....

iBook - Portable, small, lite, plenty of power (for what im going to do with it), SEXY.

iMac - Small, Tons of power (again for what im going to do with it), SEXY AS HELL, and has a beautiful 17" widescreen cinema display attached.

So it came down to, do I want portable or big screen? Well I chose the iMac, the screen won me over and the superdrive was as booster as well, that I needed. So I got the iMac, and 2 weeks later after my wife fell in love with OSX the iBook was hers, she knew what she wanted, a notebook, and she as well did not like the Powerbooks, too industrial for her.

Now are you starting to understand the way we decide? Unlike the younger crowd hell bent on getting an uber system to play Halo as fast as possible, some of us base our decisions on other factors. Maybe now you will understand a little better why people choose what they choose. Now please let it rest.

*note* Had there been a Mac Cube currently out I would have bought that and a 23" Display, just because IMHO it is the sexiest computer ever released.

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by tae667:
Yes, OS X is superior, everyone in here agrees on that. I still think that iMacs costs too much for consumers. If I pay 2000 euros(2,456.20 USD) I expect best consumer device available, because there aren't that expensive consumer Wintels available. I can pay 100� extra for OS X, 200� for design and 200� for build quality and warranty/support, but if I pay premium, I want the fastest machine for consumers. Video editing requires power and I am not going to buy professional machine just for FCE or iMovie. iMac needs G5 ASAP, because I'll buy next Apple consumer desktop which is over 2x faster than my iBook G4 933.

It's not that every mac is overpriced, iBook has just about best price/quality ratio of all consumer laptops, eMacs are OK and dual PowerMacs are the best professional workstations. So is Xserve, but PowerBooks and iMacs needs an update or price drops.

Ok, do this for me, find a PC with the same types of programs as the iLife suite, and one that has a 17" widescreen LCD, and is a small form factor computer. One thing....all the apps MUST work perfectly with each other and function as 1, oh crap thats impossible on Wintel, hmm, ok find me a PC that has no viruses or spyware, DAMMIT that also doesnt happen on Wintel, well **** let me think.... Ok find me a PC where the screen can be adjusted like the iMac, *looking* well I dont see one. Well I guess they dont make PC's like that huh?

17" screen value on iMac $699-799 ($699 for non widescreen format 17" CD) so im going to add another $100 to its value.

So after you take the screen away we are left with a $899 computer. Hmmm, for $899 im getting alot! First I get a very nice superdrive, a small form factor casing, an OS that works, no viruses, no spyware, and iLife where all my apps work together. I have professional software like Garageband, Appleworks, iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto in a super sleek small form factor conputer for only $899??!!! HELL YEAH! Go ahead and toss in that fully adjustable 17" Widescreen cinema display Mr Jobs, I will take it!!

You go buy your Yugo (err PC), go buy all your software and pray it all works together, have fun defending your system from viruses and spyware, leave me out of it. Matter of fact why dont you price out a Yugo with all the software features of any mac and the screen of the iMac and then tell me what you come up with, whatever it is it will still run on Windows, and you already lose right there

I Me Mine · Mar 20, 2004, 06:19 PM

Would you pay $2749 for the same iMac you bought and still think it's good value?

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 06:26 PM

Just for fun I called a friend of mine that has a G3 500Mhz iMac and asked him if he planned on getting a G4 or G5 upgrade anytime soon, he asked why would he need to do that? HAHAHA. I told him about this thread and he starting laughing, then he put it better then I have...he said people that need the kind of power a G5 offers buy a G5 computer, simple. I thought about it and understood what he meant, he doesnt NEED a G4 or G5, he uses the internet, IM, email, and Word processing, he uses and loves iPhoto, thats about it. So spending money on anything faster would be a waste of money for him. He also pointed out a couple other things that made sense, Value. If you consider what he paid for his iMac, and take into account the amount of time he has got out of it, and the fact that today is still does everything he needs it to do and will continue to do so for a long time then you start to get it. He could have went the PC route and spent $1000-2000 every 3 years on a new system, or he could have fallen into the upgrade components cash cow so many Yugo owners fall for these days, but he didnt. He also asked me how much is a 5 year old computer worth if you were to try and sell it, I thought about it and then I LAUGHED this time, I said good point.

Anyway, I thought I would share this conversation with everyone, I know Apple makes even more sense to me now then it did 15 minutes ago, and I didnt think there was anything more needed, hehe.

Cheers.

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Would you pay $2749 for the same iMac you bought and still think it's good value?

Who would when you can get them for $1700

And if you live somewhere that charges that much then what can I say man, move.

I Me Mine · Mar 20, 2004, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
Who would when you can get them for $1700

Exactly. So that's a "no" then

tae667 · Mar 20, 2004, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
Ok, do this for me, find a PC with the same types of programs as the iLife suite, and one that has a 17" widescreen LCD, and is a small form factor computer.

Why widescreen? 4:3 17" has more pixels, better response time, contrast and brightness. Small from factor PCs are easy to find, Shuttle's are hot in Finland right now, even my town's buses has ads right now.

I have professional software like Garageband, Appleworks, iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto in a super sleek small form factor conputer for only $899??!!!

$899 = 700�(850 with VAT), 2000� - 850� = 1400$(1150$ without VAT). It's pathetic that Apple and Dell invents their own currency rates when rest of the computer industry, even American companies, lives in reality and uses actual rates. Well, at least both of them get punished by Finnish consumers: Both has less than 1% marketshare.

Professional software? iPhoto? iMovie? GarageBand?! If those were even close to professional software, nobody would buy Logic, FCP and DVD Studio Pro.

You go buy your Yugo (err PC), go buy all your software and pray it all works together, have fun defending your system from viruses and spyware, leave me out of it.

Why would I buy PC? Because I think iMacs are overpriced or underpowered? Like I said before, G5 in 17" iMac and I'll buy it for 2000�, even if Apple doesn't use realistic exchange rates. It should cost 1750� with VAT.

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by tae667:
[B]Why widescreen? 4:3 17" has more pixels, better response time, contrast and brightness. Small from factor PCs are easy to find, Shuttle's are hot in Finland right now, even my town's buses has ads right now.

[B]

$899 = 700�(850 with VAT), 2000� - 850� = 1400$(1150$ without VAT). It's pathetic that Apple and Dell invents their own currency rates when rest of the computer industry, even American companies, lives in reality and uses actual rates. Well, at least both of them get punished by Finnish consumers: Both has less than 1% marketshare.

Professional software? iPhoto? iMovie? GarageBand?! If those were even close to professional software, nobody would buy Logic, FCP and DVD Studio Pro.

Why would I buy PC? Because I think iMacs are overpriced or underpowered? Like I said before, G5 in 17" iMac and I'll buy it for 2000�, even if Apple doesn't use realistic exchange rates. It should cost 1750� with VAT.

Ok im curious as to where you live and why you have to pay such high prices, Im starting to understand your frustrations but I dont think it should be directed at the computer itself, they are seriously sweet computers.

tae667 · Mar 20, 2004, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
Ok im curious as to where you live and why you have to pay such high prices, Im starting to understand your frustrations but I dont think it should be directed at the computer itself, they are seriously sweet computers.

I live in Finland, Scandinavia, but Apples �-prices without VAT are exactly same in every �-country. I can't complain 22% VAT because I voted socialists, hehe.

I just checked 12" iBook prices, I would only pay 80� more than Americans, which is a proof that Apple can be fair, and it's actually pretty good deal because localization to few thousands of Finnish speaking users must be way more expensive than to few millions English speaking users. Guess it's the next iMac update when they change their rates.

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by tae667:
I live in Finland, Scandinavia, but Apples �-prices without VAT are exactly same in every �-country. I can't complain 22% VAT because I voted socialists, hehe.

I just checked 12" iBook prices, I would only pay 80� more than Americans, which is a proof that Apple can be fair, and it's actually pretty good deal because localization to few thousands of Finnish speaking users must be way more expensive than to few millions English speaking users. Guess it's the next iMac update when they change their rates.

I am sorry to hear that. In your case then the price might be a tad too high

mbryda · Mar 20, 2004, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Well something's not working right is it? Why aren't more and more people buying Macs then?

If you look at Apple's sales figures, the total is an increase over last year and last quarter. More people are buying Macs.

mbryda · Mar 20, 2004, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
The comparison is not with Power Macs. The comparison is with LCD PCs.

Again, how do you figure? According to:
http://www.gateway.com/home/products..._catalog.shtml

The Profile 5xc (midlevel - De-celerons don't count) is $1,499 and it uses the awesome shared-memory Intel Extremely crappy video.

The 15" iMac (with similar specs) is $1,299.

So, how is this more expensive - last time I checked, $1,299 is less than $1,499.

And, the ProVile was touted as the iMac killer, so the comparison is very valid.

Just because you happen to like the machine doesn't mean everyone thinks like you. Indeed, despite it being the "perfect home machine" as you call it, the world is staying away from it in droves.

Are they? We'll never know as Apple lumps iMac/eMac together..

Like I said I think it IS a nice design, but with inferior specs. What I would respect would be a nice design with reasonable parts (ie. G5), and a reasonable price point. I DO think it merits a premium over the standard LCD PC, but not a 50% premium. And no, the number is not made up. You can go out and buy a reasonably spec'd fast 17" LCD PC for $1200 right now.

So? The closest competitor is more expensive than the iMac.... Sure, you can get a Desktop with a LCD for $1200, but what are the specs? How much space, noise, and power does it require? Hint, more than the iMac.

mbryda · Mar 20, 2004, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by tae667:
Let's compare my friends PC to 17" iMac. PC has 2x faster processor which beats G5 1.6MHz in video editing, over 2x faster graphics card with screen spanning, 17" LCD which beats 17" iMac in anything but resolution, 512Mb of memory, 120Gb 7200rpm harddrive, faster dvd�rw drive, 5.1 sound, 3x longer warranty and it was 700�(859.670 USD) cheaper than the 17" iMac.

So post the specs - put up or shut up. And unless that 17" LCD is DVI (doubtful @ that price point), it is inferior to the iMac's.

Just one more thing: iMac's videocard is far from good. It's not even decent.

For those that don't game, any videocard is fine.

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by mbryda:

For those that don't game, any videocard is fine.

For those that do game its fine, Im running UT2004 in 1440x900 with all the bells turned on and Im getting 30-80 FPS depending on what stage and whats going on, thats the NEWEST 3D game out and a damn good one, every other game I have tried, Jedi Knight Academy, MOH, Warcraft 3, etc etc all run super smooth. Im waiting for a game that doesnt run on my iMac, cant seem to find one.

If anyone brings up Halo I will personally drive over to your house and kick you in the nuts. Its crap on any computer, real gamers play it on XBOX

tae667 · Mar 20, 2004, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by mbryda:

So post the specs - put up or shut up. And unless that 17" LCD is DVI (doubtful @ that price point), it is inferior to the iMac's.

Amd Athlon XP 2800+ 0.13u 2.08GHz/333MHzn
Acer AL1721m 17" DVI multimedia TFT, 1280x1024.
Connect3D Radeon 9600 128MB DDR TV Out + DVI Out
Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 120GB ATA133/7200 RPM
Nec MultiSpin 4X ND-1300A DVD+/-/R/RW
512MB DDR 400MHz PC-3200
Microsoft Windows XP Fin Home Edition
3 years warranty
Crappy case, Logitech mouse and keyboard
1300� from local PC shop, 17" iMac is 1.998,99� in AppleStore Finland

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by tae667:
Amd Athlon XP 2800+ 0.13u 2.08GHz/333MHzn
Acer AL1721m 17" DVI multimedia TFT, 1280x1024.
Connect3D Radeon 9600 128MB DDR TV Out + DVI Out
Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 120GB ATA133/7200 RPM
Nec MultiSpin 4X ND-1300A DVD+/-/R/RW
512MB DDR 400MHz PC-3200
Microsoft Windows XP Fin Home Edition
3 years warranty
Crappy case, Logitech mouse and keyboard
1300� from local PC shop, 17" iMac is 1.998,99� in AppleStore Finland

Ewww, get the mac

tae667 · Mar 20, 2004, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
Ewww, get the mac

I'm not getting any computer until iMac is 2x faster than my iBook G4 933MHz, my friend just bought that PC.

ChasingApple · Mar 20, 2004, 10:45 PM

I think this would be a good time to remind people of something Apple wrote.
--------------

Here�s to the crazy ones.

__The misfits.

____The rebels.

______The troublemakers.

________The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things differently.

They�re not fond of rules.

____ And they have no respect for the status quo.

You can praise them, disagree with them, quote them,

____ disbelieve them, glorify or vilify them.

About the only thing you can�t do is ignore them.

______Because they change things.

_They invent.____They imagine.____They heal.

__They explore.____They create.____They inspire.

____They push the human race forward.

Maybe they have to be crazy.

How else can you stare at an empty canvas and see a work of art?
Or sit in silence and hear a song that�s never been written?
Or gaze at a red planet and see a laboratory on wheels?

We make tools for these kinds of people.

While some see them as the crazy ones,
___we see genius.

Because the people who are crazy enough to think
they can change the world, are the ones who do.

THINK DIFFERENT...

sniffer · Mar 20, 2004, 10:48 PM

It's about the same price here in norway for the 17" as in Finland. It's about the same as the price for the intro PowerMac.
I am considering a new mac, but I am definitive not buying one to do the same thing I am already doing just fine with my current one - surfing the web, play music, misc geek stuff, etc. The introduction iMac is a nice deal, but I can't afford it. The eMac have a nice price tag, but I don't think it's worth it right now (upgrade/price ratio). The iBook is a great deal, but the difference from my current 600 g3 ibook to the newer 800 g4 isn't what consider a major upgrade.

I don't know. Upgrade the video card on the iMac and eMac, and I could consider them. The 17" is a joke, the 15" is not to bad.

mbryda · Mar 20, 2004, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by tae667:
Amd Athlon XP 2800+ 0.13u 2.08GHz/333MHzn
Acer AL1721m 17" DVI multimedia TFT, 1280x1024.
Connect3D Radeon 9600 128MB DDR TV Out + DVI Out
Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 120GB ATA133/7200 RPM
Nec MultiSpin 4X ND-1300A DVD+/-/R/RW
512MB DDR 400MHz PC-3200
Microsoft Windows XP Fin Home Edition
3 years warranty
Crappy case, Logitech mouse and keyboard
1300� from local PC shop, 17" iMac is 1.998,99� in AppleStore Finland

I'm going to call BS. I build PC's on the side, and get wholesale prices....

That monitor is a $600 USD monitor, the CPU is about $75, the hard drive is about $125, DVD is $100, RAM is about $75, XP Home is $99, case $40, crappy motherboard $60, mouse + KB - $12, video about $100..You're at $1,286 and that's before markup and any kind of warranty allowance.

So, either the prices in Finland are very good, or someone's exadurating the truth.

ChasingApple · Mar 21, 2004, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by tae667:
I'm not getting any computer until iMac is 2x faster than my iBook G4 933MHz, my friend just bought that PC.

I feel sorry for your friend.

Athlon XP 2800+ (ageing and getting slow for nowadays)

Acer LCD (Never seen one, is it widescreen?)

Radeon 9600 (slow OEM version and not even a Pro model, GF4 Ti is faster)

Maxtor HD (40% return rate when I worked over at Frys Electronics, dont trust their crap)

NEC Drive (never EVER trust NEC with drives, too many gone down)

512MB DDR 3200 (crappy generic ram, high timings and slow)

Windows XP Home (utter garbage and the reason most mac people run from PC's)

3 year warrenty (With all that OEM garbage, its going to need it..)

Motherboard (cheap crap guarenteed)

Crappy case, Logitech mouse and keyboard (here we go, POS insides and now an ugly outside, oh yes please let me have one of these huge UGLY AS HELL towers for all to see)

1300� from local PC shop (Ouch, take a moment and figure out why he is selling it at that price)

You would actually PAY for this thing? Go for it mate, enjoy *snicker snicker*, I will gladly pay a little more for a beautiful work of art machine that works

tae667 · 07:37 AM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
I feel sorry for your friend.

Crappy case, Logitech mouse and keyboard (here we go, POS insides and now an ugly outside, oh yes please let me have one of these huge UGLY AS HELL towers for all to see)

1300� from local PC shop (Ouch, take a moment and figure out why he is selling it at that price)

Motherboard is Asus so it's quality. Warranty cannot be worse than Apple's: I waited 2.5 months for my iBook to come from repair. Apple even made it to local consumer's rights TV Kuningaskuluttaja("King consumer", or something like that) and they had evidence that this was not an exeption but rule. I'm still waiting my Airport Extreme to arrive from repair, I sent my machine in 5.1.2004(1.5.2004 in twisted American dates). That's pathetic.

Monitor beats Apples 17" in anything, better resolution(more pixels), 16ms response times, better contrast ratio, brightness, you name it. Athlon is ageing? That's funny, because it's two times faster than G4 1.25 in video encoding! Video card may be POS to you, but it's still 2x faster than iMacs GeForce, and no, it's not slower than GF Ti 4200. All different HD's costs about the same so you can change the brand. Why does Apple use Maxtor then if they're POS?

Only things which iMac wins are design and OS. My friend does games and video-editing, so I bet he's sorry for everyone, who's trying to do those on 2x slower iMac.

tae667 · Mar 21, 2004, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by mbryda:
I'm going to call BS. I build PC's on the side, and get wholesale prices....

That monitor is a $600 USD monitor, the CPU is about $75, the hard drive is about $125, DVD is $100, RAM is about $75, XP Home is $99, case $40, crappy motherboard $60, mouse + KB - $12, video about $100..You're at $1,286 and that's before markup and any kind of warranty allowance.

So, either the prices in Finland are very good, or someone's exadurating the truth.

This was from http://www.verkkokauppa.com and the prices are real. You can get the machine cheaper(http://www.mbnet.fi/hintaseuranta - price watch), but that store is the biggest computer store in Finland. All the prices include 22% VAT, not everyone screws us with exchange rates like Apple and Dell...

ChasingApple · Mar 21, 2004, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by tae667:
Motherboard is Asus so it's quality. Warranty cannot be worse than Apple's: I waited 2.5 months for my iBook to come from repair. Apple even made it to local consumer's rights TV Kuningaskuluttaja("King consumer", or something like that) and they had evidence that this was not an exeption but rule. I'm still waiting my Airport Extreme to arrive from repair, I sent my machine in 5.1.2004(1.5.2004 in twisted American dates). That's pathetic.

Monitor beats Apples 17" in anything, better resolution(more pixels), 16ms response times, better contrast ratio, brightness, you name it. Athlon is ageing? That's funny, because it's two times faster than G4 1.25 in video encoding! Video card may be POS to you, but it's still 2x faster than iMacs GeForce, and no, it's not slower than GF Ti 4200. All different HD's costs about the same so you can change the brand. Why does Apple use Maxtor then if they're POS?

Only things which iMac wins are design and OS. My friend does games and video-editing, so I bet he's sorry for everyone, who's trying to do those on 2x slower iMac.

Well sounds like your convinced, so buy the Yugo then and have fun! But your friend should have got a P4 based system, they encode and decode faster the Athlons

sniffer · Mar 21, 2004, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
Well sounds like your convinced, so buy the Yugo then and have fun! But your friend should have got a P4 based system, they encode and decode faster the Athlons

The iMac 17" is not a good deal around here, despite it being a nice machine and all. That how I would sum this up. The "buy the Yugo then and have fun" comment was unnecessary.

tae667 · Mar 21, 2004, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by sniffer:
The iMac 17" is not a good deal around here, despite it being a nice machine and all. That how I would sum this up.

I agree 100%, let's end this stupid discussion. I bet that Apple changes their exchange rates in next iMac upgrade, then it'll be a good deal.

ChasingApple · Mar 21, 2004, 09:02 AM

Anyway, getting back to the subject

We all know Apple is going to migrate the G5 over to the iMac, lets go ahead and move on from there. There is also word that to boost the consumer line of Macs Apple has something special in mind for the new iBook and iMac, redesigns! I have no idea what is in store for them but I believe they are not going to look as they do today. My guesses for the iBook are matching colors to the new mini iPods, yes I know some of them are kinda painful to look at but consumers love variety, and having a computer to match your new iPod mini would help Apple with their buy an iPod then they might get a Mac as well plan. I still think the 12" and 14" sized will stay but the casing will be new. (I still love and miss the clamshell design).

The iMac who knows, I loved the way the original iMacs looked but that was back when there were no LCD's, so for today that wont happen.. But I also think these are going to get the color case treatment as well! eMacs will keep CRT's cause kids love pokin the screens

the iMac could be another R2-D2 head, could be something completely different, I think the 15" system will be priced @ $999 though, it would seem just from watching Apple over the last 6 months they are hell bent on market share for a change, and may just price these 2 lines to sell. For the iMac im thinking $999 / $1299 / $1999 respectively and for the iBook $799 / $999 / $1299 although I have a feeling that the iBook is going to be losing one of its line and keep only 2 main configurations around, perhaps priced at $799 / $999 and retain the G4. Steve wants people to buy his computers, he also needs to seperate the Powermacs a good ways, the G5 Powerbooks are coming, that is for sure, and they will be close if not equal to the current G5 powermacs out today speed wise.

So for the average jow consumer we have...

iPod mini (Colors) / iBook G4 (Colors) / iMac G5 (Colors)

For the Mac Power User we have...

Powerbook G5 / Powermac G5 / iPod (including the upcoming 50GB monster with color screen)

For the schools we have...

eMac G4

Apple may suprise us though and toss G5's in every damn line though, they could easily clock them down to 1Ghz through 1.5Ghz for the iBook and eMac, who knows...at that point cooling would not be such an issue and would help accelerate software developers to adopt the G5 architecture quickly. Anyway those are my 0.02c thrown in for the heck of it.

Cheers.

Zoom_zoom · Mar 21, 2004, 09:26 AM

Why do i think the iMacs are not selling well?
Too expensive (when compared to the emac), it's a mac and has the same features of the emac.

What would i change?
Next update G5, or even a dual G4, something fancy to get common people going
"Oh wow it has 2 CPUs" something that which will make it much better than the emac, but not as good as the powermac!!

z0om zoom

Stolfi1 · Mar 21, 2004, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Well something's not working right is it? Why aren't more and more people buying Macs then?

The problem with apple isnt lack of market share its life of there pc I know people using powertowers still heck there are even people still using quadras and preformas out there those people arent counted in the install base but are loyal mac users I am betting this is one of the main reasons osx only runs on g3 or higher machines if the prebeige crowd wants to run new software they are going to have to buy a new mac. I myself had used a stock beige and blue and white till oct. of last year I got them in 97-98 so I used them a good 6 years and they can still run most of what I run today. Apples curse is making pc's that last

mbryda · Mar 21, 2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by ChasingApple:
Well sounds like your convinced, so buy the Yugo then and have fun! But your friend should have got a P4 based system, they encode and decode faster the Athlons

Actually, the Athlon is a tad bit faster than the Peee4. Don't beleive Intel's hype. The P4 is really not that great of a CPU - tuned more for Mhz marketing than performance.

Commodus · Mar 21, 2004, 02:54 PM

I've noticed (both here and on Ars Technica) that there are two main opposing camps in the iMac debate:

The iMac apologists: not to sound inflammatory, but there are some out there who'll excuse much of what Apple does because they love the design too much. Yes, it's very aesthetically pleasing and efficient, but that doesn't justify excessive pricing or uninteresting performance.

The "give me a headless iMac or give me death" camp: these people are often no better than the apologists. While they do have reasonable arguments, what they're really doing is pressing for Apple to design the system they, specifically, would want - not what would necessarily sell.

I'd like to think that I'm in between. Apple shouldn't just stay the course, because that's hurting their marketshare. But nor do they necessarily have to revamp the whole consumer desktop line. More than anything, they just need to be price-competitive. Drop the price to $999 on the base-model iMac. Preferably, bump it up to a 1.6 GHz G5 and a newer video card at the same time. Once at that point, people can start giving it the respect it deserves as "the computer for the rest of us," not a boutique item.

ChasingApple · Mar 21, 2004, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by mbryda:
Actually, the Athlon is a tad bit faster than the Peee4. Don't beleive Intel's hype. The P4 is really not that great of a CPU - tuned more for Mhz marketing than performance.

Wrong on that count, Pee4's are faster then Athlons at Encoding and Deconding, not faster with everything, but on those accounts they are. I personally hate Intel, but in this case they are faster, sorry to burst your bubble.

neilw · Mar 23, 2004, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by Commodus:
The "give me a headless iMac or give me death" camp: these people are often no better than the apologists. While they do have reasonable arguments, what they're really doing is pressing for Apple to design the system they, specifically, would want - not what would necessarily sell.

Many people indeed advocate a headless iMac as a system "they, specifically, would want". In other words, many people have expressed that they want to buy one. So why conclude that it wouldn't sell?

More than anything, they just need to be price-competitive. Drop the price to $999 on the base-model iMac. Preferably, bump it up to a 1.6 GHz G5 and a newer video card at the same time. Once at that point, people can start giving it the respect it deserves as "the computer for the rest of us," not a boutique item.

1) What if the overly fancy design of the current iMac precludes it from being price-competitive, and in fact dooms it to always being a boutique item?

2) How can anything with an attached LCD ever appear price-competitive to someone who already has a satisfactory monitor?

The point is that one size does not fit all. The beautiful iMac design is great for some people, but there are many others for whom something headless and much cheaper than a PowerMac would be way preferable. At least that's the argument.

I can't help the feeling that opponents of the headless consumer Mac are essentially saying that it is OK to have severely restricted choices, despite the fact that the demonstrated preference of the vast majority of computer buyers (low-cost mini-tower) is not among those choices. In this area, Apple is forcing its philosophy on its customers, just as it does with the one-button mouse, with the crucial difference that Apple suffers no particular harm if customers go and buy other vendors' mice because they don't like Apple's offering.

I dunno, maybe if the iMac were cheap and zippy enough it would solve everything. I just don't see how, in its current form, it can ever be both of those.

Link · Mar 23, 2004, 04:06 AM

Mac Enthusiast post:

Blah blah blah (details that turn into 1 page long post, thoroughly checked for rather decent grammar and punctuation.)

PC enthusiast post:

I feel that the MAC is slower for it's perfoman and that apple still has long way to improove before I will buy a comp from them peeps

NemesisEG · Mar 23, 2004, 07:21 AM

Having owned a 17" iMac for 18 months I've never regretted the purchase or the "switch". It's still a fantastic consumer machine and does everything I wanted it to do.

The line does, however, need revision. The design is fine, but move it along a bit chaps! For less money I can now pick up the iBook or eMac. For it to sell it needs to be attractive. The FP G4 iMac was a superb deal and a steal. To have only a 4MX card in the unit STILL is something I can't understand. It should've gone a long time ago.

ChasingApple · Mar 23, 2004, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by NemesisEG:
Having owned a 17" iMac for 18 months I've never regretted the purchase or the "switch". It's still a fantastic consumer machine and does everything I wanted it to do.

The line does, however, need revision. The design is fine, but move it along a bit chaps! For less money I can now pick up the iBook or eMac. For it to sell it needs to be attractive. The FP G4 iMac was a superb deal and a steal. To have only a 4MX card in the unit STILL is something I can't understand. It should've gone a long time ago.

Yet that GF4 MX is still better then ALOT of PC manufacturers videocards shipped with PC's, lol. Intel extreme, S3, Trident anyone? hehe.

1|v|4935 · Mar 23, 2004, 08:22 PM

it isn't the appeal or the money, it's the rumors and the stereotypes many people have of apple, and that will not change anytime soon. People tend to listen to whats bad and not the good. Lowering prices and adding better options won't have people flocking. Trust Me.

Parky · Mar 24, 2004, 02:46 AM

To kick start sales they need to have a complete form factor change and some really big changes to features.

The change to the FP iMac from the old CRT model was a really big step and unless they do the same 'step' change I don't think many people will upgrade.

I for one moved from a iMac DVSE to a FP iMac.

With one change I got :-

G4
Superdrive
LCD
New style
etc.

Unless there is a move to G5, better screen (higher res) plus some other killer addition and of course a great new design I feel many people like me will not simply upgrade for a slightly faster G4 and a bigger screen.

Ian

ApeInTheShell · Mar 26, 2004, 04:07 PM

Let's play the price comparing game!

iMac G3 : $799, $999, $1299, $1499
iMac FP : $1299 - $2199
eMac: $999 - $1099

It wasn't until the FP iMacs that we got the same form factor with larger screens. It's still an AIO but there are less varieties. We should also consider the factors like faster graphics cards, new technologies..etc.
I think the iMac should remain high-end consumer and the eMac low-end consumer. They both need something that distinguishes one from the other besides features.

If the G5 Cube came out there would still be the dilemna of where it fits in the product matrix. Does the eMac go back to the Education realm or price drop to $699-999?
Which would leave the iMac at $1099-1799 and the G5 Cube at $2199. Do they boost up the price for the Pro machines?

Would the G5 Cube be marketed specifically for gamers while the iMac is the center of your digital lifestyle? So is the iMac then underpowered for gaming?

Since we're talking about shifts in the Apple product line, I suppose there'd have to be a laptop exclusively for the gamers also. Think the Powerbook G3 Series. Switch out video cards, batteries, optical drives..etc.

I just wonder what could possibly make the Mac community happy

mbryda · Mar 26, 2004, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by ApeInTheShell:

I just wonder what could possibly make the Mac community happy

I've come to the conclusion - NOTHING.

Release a G5 cube, people will moan because it has no display.
Release a $500 G5 cube and people will moan because it's attracting the "wrong" crowd.
Release a 20" iMac G5 and people will moan it's too expensive and outdated.

In short, people will moan no matter what.

nsxpower · Mar 29, 2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by tae667:
I agree 100%, let's end this stupid discussion. I bet that Apple changes their exchange rates in next iMac upgrade, then it'll be a good deal.

I don't know what is happening in Europe, but I find it weird that markup on WinTel hardware is generally a lot less then on Apple hardware. Still European prices are ****ing outrageous, no wonder nothing is selling.