[Cody Dawg]

Seriously. China is huge and it's army is larger than any other army in the world. What if China wanted to take over the U.S.?

Link - China increasing military.

Rumsfeld rebuked China at a regional security conference in Singapore, saying it was pouring huge resources into its military and buying large amounts of sophisticated weapons despite facing no threat from any other country.

[f1000]

China can't even invade Taiwan for crying out loud. This is just Rumsfeld softening the Chinese up for upcoming trade talks.

Look at it from China's point of view.

Ratio of Chinese to Americans:

1700 - 241 : 1
1800 - 56 : 1
1900 - 5.2 : 1
2000 - 4.5 : 1
2050 - 3.4 : 1*

The way the Chinese see it, America is Europe's expansion club that has been spreading across a continent and an ocean towards them. Today, we have fleets patrolling all the world's seas as well as islands across the Pacific right to China's doorstep. China's also had to live with our nuclear offensive capability for decades without so much as a peep. The 20 or so ICBM warheads that they have pale in comparison to our thousands of city busters.

[Warung]

It already has...

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Warung

It already has...

What a blatant piece of strident Chinese propaganda. You need to stop drinking the Commie Kool-Aid.

[SVass]

I recommend that we build a Maginot Line between us and Mexico, reinstall guns at Fort Warden, send our B-1B bombers to Taiwan/South Korea and have a battleship patrol off Taiwan. (PS-We should expand our deficit so they will loan us more money and buy more products that they make from WalMart.) sam

[zizban]

We can trade North Dakota for Taiwan.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by f1000

What a blatant piece of strident Chinese propaganda.

Muahahhaaa.

Nope. Not even propaganda, - just the sad truth. Looks like somebody's got you by the balls...

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Warung

Muahahhaaa.

Nope. Not even propaganda, - just the sad truth. Looks like somebody's got you by the balls...

Riiiiggght.

China intern ranks right up there with the Wall Street Journal, The Economist, and the New York Times in readership and respected reporting.

[cpt kangarooski]

Other than in 'Red Dawn II: Electric Boogaloo,' I doubt it.

[bubblewrap]

Why would China want to destroy it's customer base?
It would be economic suicide.

And Warung(warning, right?) My dad flew through Germany once. Didn't stop, just dropped something off.

[Cody Dawg]

Well, maybe China has enough money now.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Warung

It already has...

Got some bread?

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by f1000

China can't even invade Taiwan for crying out loud.

Quoted for emphasis.

China may have a huge military, but that doesn't mean it has an advanced military.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Got some bread?

You can't even fu<kin' read the article. Developed any linguistic skills recently? Didn't think so...

[Warung]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

And Warung(warning, right?)

No.

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

My dad flew through Germany once.

I hope he didn't get hurt too badly.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by f1000

Riiiiggght.

China intern ranks right up there with the Wall Street Journal, The Economist, and the New York Times in readership and respected reporting.

Next time you might want to adress the issue, rather than just slandering the source.

Wie es heißt, wurde Bush von der Drohung völlig überrascht, da er nicht wußte, inwieweit die US-Wirtschaft bereits von China abhängig ist.

Translation: Allegedly Bush was comletely surprised by the threat, since he hadn't been aware just how much the US economy is already dependent on China.

[Randman]

Having visited China a number of times and travelled through it, I can honestly say that most Chinese have a respect for the US. They don't like being thought of as backward peasants (it is amazing how cosmopolitan so many are) and many of them enjoy American movies and CDs, American clothing and even Yankee fast food joints such as KFC. A good number of Chinese try to learn English.

This setting up China as a jingoistic, militaristic, Orwellian society is just plain wrong. if handled right, the US doens't have to be adversarial. It's other countries in SE Asia that have fears because China has the manpower to undercut other countries when it comes to manual labor. And as it becomes stronger economically, it'll be able to compete with other nations in the region in matters such as biotechnology.

[Athens]

Could China take over the US if it wanted to, Yes, would they No.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Athens

Could China take over the US if it wanted to? No. Would it? No.

Fixed™ (for grammar and factual reasons).

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Athens

Could China take over the US if it wanted to, Yes

I actually snorted there.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Warung

You can't even fu<kin' read the article.

I can't? Funny, I remember doing so.

Developed any linguistic skills recently? Didn't think so...

Wow, talk about out of nowhere personal attacks.

And this is coming from a guy that attempted to go around a cuss filter because he couldn't think of something better to say

BTW what a AWESOME and CLEVER way of getting around the curse filter. You have not only shown the forum you are all but 15 years old, you have also shown them you cannot discuss things without reverting to silliness.

Congratulations.

You do realize the only person you are making look bad, is yourself.

Right?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Randman

Fixed™ (for grammar and factual reasons).

Here is some information from your own CIA

United States

Military manpower - availability:
males age 18-49: 67,742,879 (2005 est.)

Military manpower - fit for military service:
males age 18-49: NA (2005 est.)

Guess its a secret

Military manpower - reaching military age annually:
males: 2,143,873 (2005 est.)


China


Military manpower - availability:
males age 18-49: 342,956,265 (2005 est.)

Military manpower - fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 281,240,272 (2005 est.)

Military manpower - reaching military age annually:
males: 13,186,433 (2005 est.)


Forget the fit part and just go with the manpower in the 18-49 range and im combing Canada’s manpower in this as well since we wouldn’t stand by if the US was ever invaded which is 8,216,510 (2005 est.) this leaves us with some simple numbers

China = 342,956,265
USA/Canada = 75,959,389

A difference of 4 to 1 for China.

Now seriously how well do you think we would do in a full scale attack, with such numbers they would be able to invade North America, last time I checked there wasn’t a fortification along the coast like in Europe in WW2, and once here how long do u think it would take for the power grid to remain in tact, and communications and commerce, and transportation. If China could get even 50% of there forces here we would be at a ratio of 2 - 1. Sure we could Nuke mainland china to nothing, but in a real attempt we would have to deal with the invasion force and raw numbers I can’t see how we could win. Specially if the cities where invaded, it would be like weeding out ants in a house one by one unless you are ok with killing millions of your own with blanket attacks.

[GSixZero]

They couldn't take us over, we couldn't take them over.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by GSixZero

They couldn't take us over, we couldn't take them over.

No one can really take any one over, history has proved that in modern time. Examples
Germany VS Europe
Russia VS Eastern Europe
Russia VS Afgans
USA VS Korea
USA VS Vietnam
USA VS Iraq
To many African countries to bother with

But a full out war with China would leave the US and China bloody, milliions dead. In a war with China the US could be invaded with a war in the home land, im sure the US would win but I cant see it being back to normal for a decade.

[Randman]

Should read Tom Clancy's The Dragon And The Bear. The Jack Ryan stuff is dull but the last few chapters on hyperwar are great. Basic premise: China attacks Russia. US attacks China.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Athens

If China could get even 50% of there forces here we would be at a ratio of 2 - 1. Sure we could Nuke mainland china to nothing, but in a real attempt we would have to deal with the invasion force and raw numbers I can’t see how we could win. Specially if the cities where invaded, it would be like weeding out ants in a house one by one unless you are ok with killing millions of your own with blanket attacks.

There's a lot more to it than just 'getting the forces here', or counting up raw troop numbers with no regard to real world logistics. Do you have any idea what gargantuan effort it would take to mobilize, adequately equip, and re-supply a force that huge? How exactly do you think it could be done, or do you imagine that it's even possible?

From where exactly do you imagine that China would stage this attack? Regardless of troop numbers (100% useless if bogged down enroute) how do you imagine China would gain air and sea superiority? This would be essential for such an invasion.

How exactly would they transport men and equipment in such record numbers to some imaginary staging point, where the US wouldn't simply sink every troop or re-supply convoy straight out from under them? What imaginary carrier fleet or offshore airstrips are you conjuring that would allow the invasion air support in the numbers needed to directly take on the US in its own airspace?

The larger the force, the more compounded the logistics problems would become. Such a large army would need resupply lines that would break all historic records. They'd have to stretch all the way back to China, with several hops in between. And in the case of mainland China being nuked, there's ZERO chance that any force, however unwieldy, would long endure beyond that. Forget even matters of the impossible re-supply after that- you'd have the simple fact that morale would hit rock bottom.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Athens

Here is some information from your own CIA
A difference of 4 to 1 for China.

Superior military weapons and tactics can easily overcome large deficiencies in manpower. Ever heard of Napoleon? Boudicca? Ghengis Khan? Thermopylae? The Spanish conquistadors? The British Empire and its delightful Maxim gun?

Originally Posted by Athens

Now seriously how well do you think we would do in a full scale attack, with such numbers they would be able to invade North America, last time I checked there wasn’t a fortification along the coast like in Europe in WW2, and once here how long do u think it would take for the power grid to remain in tact, and communications and commerce, and transportation.

Now seriously, the last time I checked the Chinese didn't have a blue water navy, at least not one to brag about, nor did they have an air force capable of reaching the U.S. from Chinese territories.

If war broke out between the U.S. and China as of today, the only thing the Chinese could do is wait for us to tire of pummeling their civilization into dust.

Originally Posted by Athens

If China could get even 50% of there forces here we would be at a ratio of 2 - 1. Sure we could Nuke mainland china to nothing, but in a real attempt we would have to deal with the invasion force and raw numbers I can’t see how we could win. Specially if the cities where invaded, it would be like weeding out ants in a house one by one unless you are ok with killing millions of your own with blanket attacks.

We can nuke China into oblivion in 1 hour. Unless the Chinese can teleport their troops to the U.S. mainland, most Chinese troops would die in their barracks in a blinding flash of light. There is simply no way for the Chinese to sneak a ten million man invasion force into North America unnoticed in 2005.

Need I remind you that in the past 50 years it's been the U.S. that's brought the battle to China's doorstep and not the other way around? In any case, even if the Chinese could invade the U.S., why should they? That would be worse than us trying to invade Iran, a country that also happens to be far weaker than us. The U.S. is the third most populous country in the world.

If I were a Chinaman bent on conquest, I'd invade Australia and CANADA.

[Randman]

Who needs war these days when simple economics is far more effective?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

There's a lot more to it than just 'getting the forces here', or counting up raw troop numbers with no regard to real world logistics. Do you have any idea what gargantuan effort it would take to mobilize, adequately equip, and re-supply a force that huge? How exactly do you think it could be done, or do you imagine that it's even possible?

From where exactly do you imagine that China would stage this attack? Regardless of troop numbers (100% useless if bogged down enroute) how do you imagine China would gain air and sea superiority? This would be essential for such an invasion.

How exactly would they transport men and equipment in such record numbers to some imaginary staging point, where the US wouldn't simply sink every troop or re-supply convoy straight out from under them? What imaginary carrier fleet or offshore airstrips are you conjuring that would allow the invasion air support in the numbers needed to directly take on the US in its own airspace?

The larger the force, the more compounded the logistics problems would become. Such a large army would need resupply lines that would break all historic records. They'd have to stretch all the way back to China, with several hops in between. And in the case of mainland China being nuked, there's ZERO chance that any force, however unwieldy, would long endure beyond that. Forget even matters of the impossible re-supply after that- you'd have the simple fact that morale would hit rock bottom.

I dont know perhaps 100 retrofited super tankers, instead of cargo, troops, tanks and weapons, with 10 ships docking in each major city for the first wave, as a surprise attack oh and retrofitted 747's into bombers so while those ships are unloading there trojen horse cargo power grids, communication networks are bombed, sure they wouldnt have long to accomplish this part but if done right the entire west coast could be nocked out in little as 5 minutes. Secondary wave of course would have no problem getting on shore since most of the major west coast cities would be takin, the key here would be a fleet to protect the second wave of main supplies and troops. Air superiority would be the major problem, that would have to come in much later since it would be to easy to spot as part of a first or second wave. But Anti Air Craft guns and missles in the first and second waves would allow for some cover, and it wouldnt be super easy to take out the targets since they would be in the cover of the major west coast cities. This is just one plosable way.

And for resuply im sure there is enough gas and food in the captured cities to do just fine, perhaps ammo would be the only real issue.

[Randman]

Do you know how big the Pacific is? A fleet that big (which no country has) wouldn't get within 1,000 miles of Hawaii, much less the mainland, before US subs would pounce.

There's a big reason (two actually) why there was only 1 attack on US soil (and that was Hawaii in a sneak attack) in World War I and II combined, the Atlantic and Pacific.

Air superiority? The US would win easily.

And don't forget the US could stage launches from Thailand, Singapore, Australia, Japan and even Taiwan.

In a conflict between nations, no country on Earth would defeat the US. Not even close. It's the smaller guerrilla-type battles, the terrorist attacks that are harder to stymie and cope with.

Besides, any country would bankrupt itself trying to match the US in an arms build-up. Why do you think the Soviet Union fell?

Study some history and military history and then come back with a plausible argument.

[DBursey]

China, albeit an emerging regional power, has no real blue-water capabilities and (ballistic missle forces notwithstanding) no logistically feasible means of military force projection. Sheer numerical forces of manpower may or may not constitute an adequate potential defense for the sino homeland, but are rather useless when it comes to modern force projection beyond Chinese borders and coastlines.

Ergo, the larger the hypothetically converted supertanker troop carrier fleet, the greater the propensity to form new reef homes for aquatic denizens of the Taiwan straits.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by Warung

No.



I hope he didn't get hurt too badly.

Came home just fine.
Taught me to fly.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Randman

Who needs war these days when simple economics is far more effective?

While you are right, this forum is full of people with the "we'll blow 'em to shreds cuz we're the good ol' USA" mentality.

Their posts are quite comical, though I can't always decide which theme music should be put behind them...I was thinking about the music that is played whenever the Empire and Darth Vader are in the scene in a Star Wars movies.

However, it is the greatest adult game of "my daddy can beat up your daddy" that I have seen in a while, and if it makes them feel better about themselves than so be it.

This thread is a moot point anyway. People are quite right in saying that China would be unable to invade and occupy the US, but it has FAR more to do with the logistics than it does the military strength of either nation. This is also the reason that the US could never invade and occupy China.

I am not even sure why people spend so much time on topics like these?

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by DBursey

China, albeit an emerging regional power, has no real blue-water capabilities and (ballistic missle forces notwithstanding) no logistically feasible means of military force projection. Sheer numerical forces of manpower may or may not constitute an adequate potential defense for the sino homeland, but are rather useless when it comes to modern force projection beyond Chinese borders and coastlines.

Ergo, the larger the hypothetically converted supertanker troop carrier fleet, the greater the propensity to form new reef homes for aquatic denizens of the Taiwan straits.

And then China would win the War over Best Scuba Diving Resorts.

That's worth a serious thought...

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by James L

While you are right, this forum is full of people with the "we'll blow 'em to shreds cuz we're the good ol' USA" mentality.

Their posts are quite comical, though I can't always decide which theme music should be put behind them...I was thinking about the music that is played whenever the Empire and Darth Vader are in the scene in a Star Wars movies.

However, it is the greatest adult game of "my daddy can beat up your daddy" that I have seen in a while, and if it makes them feel better about themselves than so be it.

This thread is a moot point anyway. People are quite right in saying that China would be unable to invade and occupy the US, but it has FAR more to do with the logistics than it does the military strength of either nation. This is also the reason that the US could never invade and occupy China.

I am not even sure why people spend so much time on topics like these?

With all due respect, why did you bother?

[f1000]

Originally Posted by James L

While you are right, this forum is full of people with the "we'll blow 'em to shreds cuz we're the good ol' USA" mentality.

What do you expect us to do in the face of a massive invasion - give the maurauders hugs?

This forum is full of people who get antsy everytime someone points out an American advantage or its right to defend itself.

Originally Posted by James L

However, it is the greatest adult game of "my daddy can beat up your daddy" that I have seen in a while, and if it makes them feel better about themselves than so be it.

The problem is that there are idiotic malcontents who really do need to be dissuaded from engaging in fantastic and ultimately futile paramilitary adventures, be it against the U.S. or some other government.

The loons who attacked the U.S. on 9/11 truly thought that their deaths would be the opening salvo in a Muslim uprising against the U.S. The only thing they caused was the deaths of a few thousand American civilians AND a tightening of America's grip on the Middle East. Oh, and possibly the deaths of over a million Afghans and Iraqis in the years to come.

I think it's better to disabuse people of dangerous notions from the outset than it is to keep quiet and let their adolescent fantasy bubbles grow into nationalistic suicide.

[Zimphire]

You'd have thought people would have the sense not to mess with us after WWII

But noooooooooooo some people never learn.

[zizban]

Though I am peaceful and antiwar, if anyone invaded my country, I would fight to the death to defend it. I think every American would. A war in a distant land is one thing, having an invader attacking Los Angeles is quite another.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Congratulations.

You do realize the only person you are making look bad, is yourself.

Right?

Wrong!

[Zimphire]

Boy, you sure told me!

You are about as effective as a debater as he is.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

I can't? Funny, I remember doing so.

Aber verstanden haste nix, oder?

Originally Posted by Zimphire

BTW what a AWESOME and CLEVER way of blah blah

You do realize the only person you are making look bad, is yourself. Blah blah blah

[James L]

Originally Posted by f1000

What do you expect us to do in the face of a massive invasion - give the maurauders hugs?

This forum is full of people who get antsy everytime someone points out an American advantage or its right to defend itself.



The problem is that there are idiotic malcontents who really do need to be dissuaded from engaging in fantastic and ultimately futile paramilitary adventures, be it against the U.S. or some other government.

The loons who attacked the U.S. on 9/11 truly thought that their deaths would be the opening salvo in a Muslim uprising against the U.S. The only thing they caused was the deaths of a few thousand American civilians AND a tightening of America's grip on the Middle East. Oh, and possibly the deaths of over a million Afghans and Iraqis in the years to come.

I think it's better to disabuse people of dangerous notions from the outset than it is to keep quiet and let their adolescent fantasy bubbles grow into nationalistic suicide.

I am not referring to the legitimate use of military power to defend a nation, nor to any comment you made f1000... I am referring to the select people on this forum who love making the good ol' boy comments about how they will "rain death on the insolants... blah blah blah."

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Warung

Aber verstanden haste nix, oder?

I understood it as well

You know, I am sure glad I know other nice, polite Germans. Else I would think were all rude and obnoxious.

How old are you? 12?

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

How old are you? 12?

[As if that would matter anyway...]

[Zimphire]

That's what I thought.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by James L

I am not referring to the legitimate use of military power to defend a nation, nor to any comment you made f1000... I am referring to the select people on this forum who love making the good ol' boy comments about how they will "rain death on the insolants... blah blah blah."

Understood. I make judicious use of the Ignore feature myself.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Athens

I dont know perhaps 100 retrofited super tankers, instead of cargo, troops, tanks and weapons, with 10 ships docking in each major city for the first wave, as a surprise attack

Where to even start? 10 ships? That's hardly enough to take an entire city! For comparison, the Normandy invasion force was comprised of thousands of ships and aircraft. That was just for one invasion point along one small area of French coastline. You’re talking about invading an ENTIRE 1,000+ mile coastline! This even assumes anyone would ever allow these fleets anywhere near our coasts without sinking them on sight.

You might want to consult a map; all west coast cities north of San Francisco are not located on the shore. Your imaginary forces would get trapped behind coastal mountain ranges. Or trapped and sunk in narrow straits trying to get to places like Seattle. The number of vehicles needed to transport so many troops inland would need another entire invasion fleet to carry them. Unless by some magic they had secured the highways inland, they'd be easy pickings trying to motor inland along easily predictable routes.

oh and retrofitted 747's into bombers so while those ships are unloading there trojen horse cargo power grids, communication networks are bombed, sure they wouldnt have long to accomplish this part but if done right the entire west coast could be nocked out in little as 5 minutes.

This ‘strategy’ wouldn't even be effective if it were still the late 1940's, let alone 2005. A 747 compared to virtually any military aircraft, is a slow, lumbering behemoth that would be shot out of the sky as if it were standing still. They wouldn't make effective bombers. Any bomber that could even stand a ghost of a chance at making it to its target would have to be supersonic, with incredible stealth capabilities. Not to mention a fleet of radar and communications jamming aircraft would have to precede it. Such aircraft would have to have an offshore base close to the US, as range is simply not unlimited. (Where exactly do you imagine this would be?) Bomber fleets against major western cities is a WWII vintage idea, long outdated. The ICBM has rendered them obsolete.

Secondary wave of course would have no problem getting on shore since most of the major west coast cities would be takin

If, by some miracle, a first wave managed to sneak in without being sunk and then by some other miracle, manage to actually be effective, any second wave most certainly would be sunk. Again, you seem to think it's the 1950's and that we don't have surveillance systems, satellites, submarines, advanced aircraft, air to surface missiles, etc. etc. Transporting the huge number of invasion forces for your scenario simply couldn't be done in secret against a modern nation in the year 2005.

Anyway, as has been pointed out, China couldn't invade the US, nor could the US invade China. Either side would have to be suicidal to attempt it. Imagining either scenario being at all plausible is folly.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

The number of vehicles needed to transport so many troops inland would need another entire invasion fleet to carry them.

Obviously, they are moving those vehicles here by stealth:

SHANGHAI, China - Are Americans ready to buy cut-rate Chinese cars?

A little-known Chinese automaker bets the answer is yes and is gearing up to manufacture and ship huge numbers of low-cost sedans and SUVs to the United States within two years.

[nredman]

Originally Posted by zizban

We can trade North Dakota for Taiwan.

my parents would be pissed

[James L]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Obviously, they are moving those vehicles here by stealth:

LOL!! Brilliant!


Though, you realize that this means that Japan and Germany must be in on the invasion also.