[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You know what the real test for intelligence is? All things being equal, burning a building to see who runs out. The iPhone would just sit there.

My iP3 got left on the dashboard in high-altitude sun for a few hours. When I came back it was (figuratively) screaming. Wonky display and temperature warning message. If it had feet I am sure it would have jumped off the dash.



The 4s would probably dial 9-1-1 and report me for cellphone endangerment.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

Looking at it from an engineer's POV, supporting the concurrent Siri/iP4s/iOS5/iCloud/10.7.2 introductions has to be somewhere between an extreme challenge and a nightmare. IMO closer to the nightmare. Hell, I have not yet even figured out what they all do.

Adding support for another (older) platform to the initial Siri introduction would have been over the top.

Meh. Sounds an awful lot like an Apple apologist excuse to me.

[Eug]

Heh. Just as some of us suspected, the 4S-only Siri spec is basically a marketing decision. The original Siri Assistant app had a more limited scope, but even ran on the iPhone 3G.

Siri Assistant

Essentially, Siri Assistant can do anything you can think to ask of it. Siri checks flight statuses and movie times. Events such as concerts, sports, or theater are available by location. I spent a good deal of time trying to figure out what Siri can’t do, and found it can even answer the most obscure of questions. (For instance, the app provided me with a list of the good spots to go apple-picking in New Jersey were as well as information on where babies come from). Siri Assistant isn’t a search engine, but it will quickly Google terms if that’s what you want. Many searches produced the results I was looking for. The one time I stumped Siri Assistant by asking for a recipe, the app apologized for not having the answer while promptly directing me to the Epicurious Website so that I could find what I wanted.



Compatible with iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad.
Requires iOS 3.0 or later

Dropped from App Store, Siri Assistant to stop working Oct. 15

People who have already downloaded Siri Assistant, however, are being informed that the app will stop performing voice-driven searches on October 15. According to a screenshot provided by a Macworld.com reader, Siri Assistant tells users, “I’ve been replaced! The new Siri is even smarter and better-looking than me, and waiting for you on the iPhone 4S. I’ll be leaving for home Oct. 15th.”

[SierraDragon]

?? And the fact that an earlier version existed proves what? We have no reason to believe the old version is identical to the iP4s version. In fact I expect the opposite. No doubt after Siri 4s is actually out some folks who ran the old Siri will compare.

[Spheric Harlot]

Apple's Siri does quite a bit more than the old version, doesn't it?

For one, it seems like more of a natural-language parsing; for another, it ties into all the system services - address book, calendars, sms, mail, etc. - at a very different level than before. Also, it deals with dialects and is multilingual (though that alone probably doesn't warrant the A5 requirement).

This is just pure speculation, but I'd assume that something that's tied into the system at a much lower level is treated with very different tolerances regarding lag or hangs than a stand-alone app.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

What is the definition of artificial intelligence?

I have a bit of background in AI. I spent some years researching it and playing around with some stuff in University.

These are the wrong questions to be asking because everything is "intelligent" in its own way. That is, how things have adapted to their environment, from rocks to us. Richard Dawkins has some good things to say about things in our world. About intelligence, evolution, biology, and the like.

The point is that humans are terribly arrogant and self-centred. So much so that they discount the value, the worth, the "intelligence" of other life-forms. Dawkins talks about what it's like to be a rock. How even small particles like atoms can stream through its porous body. What that world would be like.

No, he, nor I, don't pretend to think that a rock is "as smart" as humans, whatever the hell that means. But the rock has some value here in its own right.

Back to the question. With all this, it's not surprising that my answer, that what I see as a lot of contemporary viewpoints on this, is that machines - computers - are in their own way "intelligent". But all this has to be taken into the context of the limits of our language, the limits upon which human beings can interpret and perceive the world and themselves, and so forth.

The thing that really separates us from computers, specifically, though, is emotions. Emotions play a crucial role in semantics: meanings of things.

For instance, if someone asks you what "death" means, you'd say something like the end of life, as would Siri. However, you understand what death means in a way that Siri, or Watson, or whatever, just doesn't. That's because words to us have emotional tags associated with them which makes them deeply meaningful to us. Death is tagged with the emotion "pain", in the back of your mind you think of the loved one you lost, etc.. It all happens in an instant when the word is uttered.

Searle's Chinese Room argument covers this. However, as I've discussed, I think it's a good idea to look at everything as intelligent in its own way.

Think of it this way, if you were on an advanced alien planet, where death didn't exist. Where baseball didn't exist. Where cancer didn't exist. Where they perceived in 10 dimensions, their world wouldn't make much sense to you. You'd literally be like a rock, unable to understand the things around you, or even perceive them. Does that mean you're not intelligent? No, it just means that meaning, intelligence, etc. is unique and very context specific, as well as somewhat subjective.

If anyone wants to read an old paper I did on AI, just PM me.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

?? And the fact that an earlier version existed proves what? We have no reason to believe the old version is identical to the iP4s version. In fact I expect the opposite. No doubt after Siri 4s is actually out some folks who ran the old Siri will compare.

It illustrates that your suggestion that such "AI" is so complex that it's a grand feat of engineering do make it run on something as "slow" as the dual-core A5 is probably more Reality Distortion Field-induced than anything else.

Like so many other Apple decisions before this, this is likely primarily a marketing decision, not a technical one.

[Spheric Harlot]

The AI itself is done server-side, anyway, so that's likely not the discerning factor.

[fmalloy]

Originally Posted by Eug 

iMessaging has two (or more) addresses which it uses on the iPhone. The SMS phone number and the email address. These are actually partially independent.

I think this is exactly how all the "free SMS" apps all work, and Apple's really done nothing new except rolled it all into the standard Messages app, so you don't have to plead with all your friends to standardize on a third-party "Joe Blow's Free SMS" app with the annoying ads.

I think it creates some limited kind of email address to identify you (I surmise Apple uses the Apple ID emails), and you actually send the "SMS message" via email. So basically, all this iMessage/SMS is is kind of a stripped down push email client which goes to a message window that looks like SMS (in Apple's case - the same SMS app) instead of an email client. So, my theory is that it's really an email that's formatted to look like an SMS.

If so, I have no idea why it would not work on a 3G, except for the fact that they cut off the 3G from iOS 5 so you wouldn't have access to the new Messages app.

Can someone confirm my assertions? If it doesn't work this way, I'd like to know how iMessage knows how to route the message...

[fmalloy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Apple's Siri does quite a bit more than the old version, doesn't it?

This is just pure speculation, but I'd assume that something that's tied into the system at a much lower level is treated with very different tolerances regarding lag or hangs than a stand-alone app.

I have a feeling that this "requires the horsepower of a 4S and dual-core A5" is pure BS.

The phone just digitizes your speech and ships it to the server. The server does all the magical AI work and filtering and sends back the result.

This is just a way to get more people (a million the first day) to buy the 4S. Let's face it - without Siri being exclusive to the 4S, how many would have sprung for the new phone? Dual-core, better camera, yeah, yeah...Siri is the big deal, and there's no way you're getting that as a freebie software update on your iPhone 4. Apple's already giving you iOS 5...

[Eug]

Originally Posted by fmalloy 

I think this is exactly how all the "free SMS" apps all work, and Apple's really done nothing new except rolled it all into the standard Messages app, so you don't have to plead with all your friends to standardize on a third-party "Joe Blow's Free SMS" app with the annoying ads.

I think it creates some limited kind of email address to identify you (I surmise Apple uses the Apple ID emails), and you actually send the "SMS message" via email. So basically, all this iMessage/SMS is is kind of a stripped down push email client which goes to a message window that looks like SMS (in Apple's case - the same SMS app) instead of an email client. So, my theory is that it's really an email that's formatted to look like an SMS.

If so, I have no idea why it would not work on a 3G, except for the fact that they cut off the 3G from iOS 5 so you wouldn't have access to the new Messages app.

Can someone confirm my assertions? If it doesn't work this way, I'd like to know how iMessage knows how to route the message...

Not quite. One of the IDs supported by iMessaging are iPhone telephone numbers, so this is why the issue I listed before crops up, because iPads and iPod touches don't have phone numbers, and there is no option to add one either.

Also, you can use multiple different email addresses, not just the Apple ID, all linked to the same groups of devices, or not.

[The Godfather]

Another reason to not trust the cloud and software as a service. Providers change their tune on a dime and take away what was really never yours.

iTunes Match has the potential to lock you away from the matched music, if the RIAA has its way.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by fmalloy 

Let's face it - without Siri being exclusive to the 4S, how many would have sprung for the new phone?

Lots, including me. Certainly 2G and 3G users, and most of the new Sprint users (allegedly Sprint is in for 30M phones); and well-heeled folks who buy the newest just because. Even though IMO Siri does look like a game-changer, I was going to buy this version before I ever heard of Siri.

Even without Siri:

• Double the processor

• Dual auto-switching antennas

• 7x Graphics power

• 8 MP Camera, improved optics

• 1080P Video with video stabilization

• Up to 64 GB flash storage

-Allen

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I have a bit of background in AI. I spent some years researching it and playing around with some stuff in University.

That's all nice and very metaphysical. I also like how you say that Siri meets the definition of "artificial intelligence" and then turn around to say that to ask for your definition of AI is the wrong question to ask.

I know a few developers who specialize in artificial intelligence in the R&D department at SMART Technolgies'. They don't consider what they've seen of Siri to be AI.

[Eug]

Siri, I love you. (Skip to 1:33.)

The good news is that I think we have another decade or two until Skynet takes over.

[kman42]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Apple's Siri does quite a bit more than the old version, doesn't it?

For one, it seems like more of a natural-language parsing; for another, it ties into all the system services - address book, calendars, sms, mail, etc. - at a very different level than before. Also, it deals with dialects and is multilingual (though that alone probably doesn't warrant the A5 requirement).

This is just pure speculation, but I'd assume that something that's tied into the system at a much lower level is treated with very different tolerances regarding lag or hangs than a stand-alone app.

As for Siri being 4s only, it may be because they wanted limited distribution to work out the kinks of beta software running on a server. Might not be a good idea to open it up to however many milllions of iP4 users there are.

As for the new Siri doing more than the old Siri. Yes and no. I haven't seen anything about it being able to buy movie tix or make dinner reservations or check fight times. Granted, apple probably just doesn't have third party contracts in place for this stuff, but they are features that they old Siri had.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

That's all nice and very metaphysical. I also like how you say that Siri meets the definition of "artificial intelligence" and then turn around to say that to ask for your definition of AI is the wrong question to ask.

I know a few developers who specialize in artificial intelligence in the R&D department at SMART Technolgies'. They don't consider what they've seen of Siri to be AI.

Siri is not AI. Let's move along and please Eug, stop the bickering in my thread. We get your position, and thank you for chiming in.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Siri is not AI. Let's move along and please Eug, stop the bickering in my thread. We get your position, and thank you for chiming in.

Heh. Stop sulking and discuss the points made with useful counterpoints and perhaps there will be some more progress with the content around your posts. The point of a thread isn't to have everyone agree with you, no matter how brilliant you might think and claim you are.

[freudling]

Sick Siri demo, complete with its response to, "Open the pod bay doors Hal":

A conversation with Siri on the iPhone 4S - YouTube

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Sick Siri demo, complete with its response to, "Open the pod bay doors Hal":

A conversation with Siri on the iPhone 4S - YouTube

"It doesn't always work"
"Hey Dan period what's up question-mark"

Here's the fundamental problem with natural language search engines: "natural" varies greatly from person to person.

[SierraDragon]

Of course it doesn't always work. Siri seems cool but setting some kind of instant bar for it to need to jump is just wrong. There will be hiccups in this process.

Siri will of course need to evolve. Siri needs to learn each user and each user needs to learn Siri, which will take a while: weeks, not days. And Apple needs to evolve the Siri support for a few million iP4s users on a brand-new iCloud. That task is non-trivial, hardly an "Apple apologist excuse."

-Allen

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

"It doesn't always work"
"Hey Dan period what's up question-mark"

Here's the fundamental problem with natural language search engines: "natural" varies greatly from person to person.

Heh. It works like Dragon for dictation, with a wide ranging vocabulary. Except iPhone 4S may not be there yet.

[SSharon]

Does iOS 5 have alternate directions in the Maps application? All of the Siri demos show 1 of 2 or 1 of 3 alternate routes so it looks like it. Does this mean there are other useful options like avoid highways/tolls/traffic?

[The Godfather]

It is the Newton all over again. Wait for the SNL skits coming next week

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

Does iOS 5 have alternate directions in the Maps application? All of the Siri demos show 1 of 2 or 1 of 3 alternate routes so it looks like it. Does this mean there are other useful options like avoid highways/tolls/traffic?

If you watch the Macworld video linked he states that Siri is not (yet) a full-on GPS-type app as regards directions. For that as of now we need to go outside of Siri to an app.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by The Godfather 

Wait for the SNL skits coming next week

SNL skits may be the best part of Siri. If Apple is smart they will quickly integrate them into Siri, like they did the bay doors Hal response.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

If you watch the Macworld video linked he states that Siri is not (yet) a full-on GPS-type app as regards directions. For that as of now we need to go outside of Siri to an app.

This is what I was talking about. AppleInsider | Inside IOS 5: new Maps features The alternate map directions.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

"It doesn't always work"
"Hey Dan period what's up question-mark"

Here's the fundamental problem with natural language search engines: "natural" varies greatly from person to person.

This is speech-to-text recognition... not Siri. You have to say period and new line, etc. because none of the recognition software interprets intonation in the way needed for it to understand when to insert punctuation marks.

[mr100percent]

I used the iPhone 3G when iOS 4 came out. It was slooooow. Painfully slow, watch the youtube videos and you'll wince. Lots of complaints. I did use Siri Assistant on it and it was painful. Since the iOS Siri has a drastically bigger feature set, it would probably be just as slow. Apple didn't let the 3G run background apps, partly for marketing and partly because it would be sucky and Apple doesn't put out low-quality stuff.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mr100percent 

I used the iPhone 3G when iOS 4 came out. It was slooooow. Painfully slow, watch the youtube videos and you'll wince.

Yeah, the videos do make it look like the 3G is slow for Siri... which isn't a big surprise since the 3G is slow in general even with iOS 4. (One of the main reasons I upgraded to the 4 from the 3G was because of the speed of the 3G in general, but esp. for web browsing.) However, the videos do also show that part of the delay is due to the thinking and data retrieval part, which are actually not done by the iPhone. (It was done by Siri's AI servers, which have now become Apple's AI servers for the iPhone 4S.) Also important to note is the fact that the iPhone 4 is roughly 50% faster than the 3G, and runs iOS 5 nicely too. (iOS 5 is not supported on the 3G.)

[mserv2001]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Sick Siri demo, complete with its response to, "Open the pod bay doors Hal":

A conversation with Siri on the iPhone 4S - YouTube

Curious why Siri will read back Text messages but won't read eMail messages back.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

This is speech-to-text recognition... not Siri.

That's *all* Siri is. A speech recognition engine that feeds into a search engine. Everything that Siri does can already be done through Google, with the exception of the natural language recognition (which appears to be weak).

show me restaurants nearby - Google Search

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Eug 

As for my point about not being able to use iMessaging because it's device dependent, that's absolutely true. If you try sending a pic to an iPhone 3G user, you can't because iMessaging isn't active. The pic icon is present, but it's greyed out, because only SMS messages are available. Most of my messaging contacts don't have iPhone 4 series phones, which means I can't use iMessaging with them.

Are you saying that if you send a pic through iMessage to an iPhone that isn't running iOS 5 it won't just be sent through as an MMS? That doesn't sound right, though I guess I'll have a chance to try it myself and find out shortly.

edit: Quotation fail

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

That's *all* Siri is. A speech recognition engine that feeds into a search engine.

I disagree. It is way more than "A speech recognition engine that feeds into a search engine" even though of course Siri does do that.

Siri: schedule a meeting with SallySue on Tuesday at 10 AM at 1200 McHenry, Modesto.

- Set an alarm to remind me when I get close.

And it happens. That is NOT just "A speech recognition engine that feeds into a search engine."

It will take 6 months before we get up to speed with Siri and Siri gets up to speed with us, but clearly Siri is hella more that just "A speech recognition engine that feeds into a search engine."

Everything that Siri does can already be done through Google...

Yeah, right. After a month with Siri sit down with Android/Google and Siri and put them both through their paces - including more than just search.

-Allen

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

That's *all* Siri is. A speech recognition engine that feeds into a search engine. Everything that Siri does can already be done through Google, with the exception of the natural language recognition (which appears to be weak).

The crux is the context sensitivity. Being able to ask "Will I need an umbrella today?" and get a weather report is one thing, and being able to follow that up with "What about Chicago?", rather than "What's the weather like in Chicago?" is pretty cool.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

That's *all* Siri is. A speech recognition engine that feeds into a search engine. Everything that Siri does can already be done through Google, with the exception of the natural language recognition (which appears to be weak).

show me restaurants nearby - Google Search

You've missed the point. Apple is using Nuance and licensing their speech recognition for us with Siri. This is modular: Apple can swap it for something else like their own whenever they want.

What my point is was about speech-to-text recognition, not merely speech recognition. This has nothing to do with Siri. Nuance's engine is system wide, working in Notes and other Apps transforming your speech into text. This functionality is independent of Siri. You have to say things like QUESTION MARK etc. To punctuate your text when speaking.

And Siri itself is a hell of a lot more than what you've described as others have pointed out to you. Not the least of which because it handles natural language and utilizes non-Google indexes and knowledgebases like Wolfram Alpha.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by gradient 

Are you saying that if you send a pic through iMessage to an iPhone that isn't running iOS 5 it won't just be sent through as an MMS? That doesn't sound right, though I guess I'll have a chance to try it myself and find out shortly.

edit: Quotation fail

I just sent a picture via MMS from iOS5 to iOS4. The SMS went through but the image didn't. Yet.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The crux is the context sensitivity. Being able to ask "Will I need an umbrella today?" and get a weather report is one thing, and being able to follow that up with "What about Chicago?", rather than "What's the weather like in Chicago?" is pretty cool.

Agreed. Only, that didn't work when he tried to demo it.

[Wiskedjak]

Well, it's good to know that the Reality Distortion Field was able to survive Steve's passing.

[Spheric Harlot]

In the absence of first-hand experience, what the hell do you expect? We only have a few - overwhelmingly positive - reviews and Apple's promo material and demos.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

In the absence of first-hand experience, what the hell do you expect? We only have a few - overwhelmingly positive - reviews and Apple's promo material and demos.

I never believe Apple's demos for obvious reasons. The 3rd party previews suggest there are some glitches, but that said, it still works better than I was expecting. The speech recognition seems mostly to work even without speech training, and across different accents relatively well.

As for the AI logic, there does need to be some work to be done, but given that the AI servers are remote, it does work better than might be expected with say a local PC with regular updates.

I also wonder how much data is being transferred back and forth. My guess is not a lot, but I don't know. The biggest question is how the voice is handled. Is the actual voice file being transmitted back, or is it interpreted on the phone (and that would require some compute speed) and then the translation transmitted back? If the former, that could add up quickly for 3G data plans, but if the latter then not so much.

Speaking of 3G data plans in iOS 5: For iCloud, one of the things I've done is shut off document transfers via 3G. I'll let others be the guinea pigs first. eg. I don't have Keynote on my iPad, but if I did use the iPad for Keynote, I could see it adding up quickly, since I often have presentations over 25 MB. (My presentations are usually mostly based off images.)

[Spheric Harlot]

It's known that the voice recognition is done by Dragon on the iPhone itself, so the data sent in for interpretation is a sentence of ASCII text, at most.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It's known that the voice recognition is done by Dragon on the iPhone itself, so the data sent in for interpretation is a sentence of ASCII text, at most.

Heh. I guess that explains my observation that it seems to work just like Dragon.

Nonetheless it does work a bit better than expected across differing accents. With the (older) Dragon versions I'm used to, it usually handles standard US & Canadian accents fine, but starts to trip up with certain other accents. For example, someone with an Indian accent might have initial problems until s/he trained the software.

I would be interested to see someone with say an Indian or Chinese or Eastern European accent for English try Siri to see how well it works. The previews I've seen so far have had native North American or British English speakers. However, the Macworld guy did use a Yoda accent and grammar and that worked fine too.

[angelmb]

So, iOS 5 is being released today. Says intego.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

So, iOS 5 is being released today. Says intego.

Apple did say the 12th.

I tried downloading Find My Friends on my iPhone, but got an alert saying I need to update to iOS5 first. I'll have to wait until the weekend to really test out iOS5. Not a bad thing since there are always a few bugs to work out.

[Waragainstsleep]

I was able to download Find My Friends. Sadly I have no friends

Incidentally, Find My iPhone does not even load before it crashes.

Also got Airport Utility, very handy.

[Brien]

When I updated to the GM my battery life went to hell. I went from 100% to 6% in 9 hours, and the phone would run very warm all day, even if it was just hangin' out in my pocket. Hopefully another restore will help.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by Brien 

When I updated to the GM my battery life went to hell. I went from 100% to 6% in 9 hours, and the phone would run very warm all day, even if it was just hangin' out in my pocket. Hopefully another restore will help.

What was running in the background? Maybe an app from a third party needs to be updated?

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I just sent a picture via MMS from iOS5 to iOS4. The SMS went through but the image didn't. Yet.

Yikes, hopefully that's just a bug. I can't believe that they would intentionally remove the ability to send MMS messages to devices not running iOS5 (which is certainly the majority).

[TETENAL]

What is the default second home screen on iPhone under iOS 5? Does anyone have a screenshot.

I assume the stocks app and utilities folder moved to the second screen. How are they organized by default?