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Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden (Page 2)
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besson3c
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Oct 23, 2017, 05:33 PM
 
I like you, Andi. If I created a nice garden I would let you play around in it and eat the apples in it without some douchebag snake to bug you with threats about eating the fruit, and just getting in your way like a dick.
     
Chongo  (op)
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Oct 23, 2017, 05:36 PM
 
THE one
http://www.usccb.org/bible/approved-translations/
USCCB Approved Translations of the Sacred Scriptures for Private Use and Study by Catholics
1983 - Present

The 1983 Code of Canon Law entrusts to the Apostolic See and the episcopal conferences the authority to approve translations of the Sacred Scriptures in the Latin Catholic Church (c. 825, §1). Prior to 1983, Scriptural translations could be approved by the Apostolic See or by a local ordinary within a diocese.

What follows is a complete list of the translations of the Sacred Scriptures that have received the approval of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops since 1983.

In addition to the translations listed below, any translation of the Sacred Scriptures that has received proper ecclesiastical approval ‒ namely, by the Apostolic See or a local ordinary prior to 1983, or by the Apostolic See or an episcopal conference following 1983 ‒ may be used by the Catholic faithful for private prayer and study.


Books of the New Testament, Alba House

Contemporary English Version - New Testament, First Edition, American Bible Society

Contemporary English Version - Book of Psalms, American Bible Society

Contemporary English Version - Book of Proverbs, American Bible Society

The Grail Psalter (Inclusive Language Version), G.I.A. Publications

New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE)

New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition, National Council of Churches

The Psalms, Alba House

The Psalms (New International Version) - St. Joseph Catholic Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Company

The Psalms - St. Joseph New Catholic Version, Catholic Book Publishing Company

Revised Psalms of the New American Bible (1991)

So You May Believe, A Translation of the Four Gospels, Alba House

Today's English Version, Second Edition, American Bible Society

Translation for Early Youth, A Translation of the New Testament for Children, Contemporary English Version, American Bible Society
The NABRE is used for the readings at Mass, the RSV-CE is used for RCIA classes.
     
subego
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Oct 23, 2017, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
2000-year-old game of telephone, I'm telling you.
Sorta.

The manuscripts the bulk of the NASB NT translation is based on were from 300 to 1000 A.D.
     
subego
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Oct 23, 2017, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
^ to Chongo's post:
Yes, and many interpretations. That article is full of the variations, and only you choosing to believe the one the Church says is The One makes it easy for you.



The NAS is poetic, but yes a bit cryptic. Regarding the last line "their nakedness is yours." I could assume due to patriarchy it means "of your family" but I'd like to also think it means, "yours to protect." The NIV version ends "that would dishonor you" which seems to be more about you and less about harming innocent members of your family.
The schtick of the NAS is to be as literal a translation as possible within the confines of maintaining grammatically correct English.
     
subego
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Oct 23, 2017, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It is framed that way but not loudly. Its the quietest framing in the Universe. I think it a hundred times more often than I say it. It makes me wonder if the same is true of the right. That they think it (and even know it), but they don't like it when we say it. As with numerous other things.
It leaks out unconsciously.

It's appropriately aimed at some, not at others.

The right-wing intelligentsia is for the most part completely out of touch with poor people, which causes them to apply right-wing philosophy more aggressively than appropriate.

It isn't fair for them to do that, but neither is it fair to lump them in with those who use the philosophy as cover for malice.

If the right-wing was actually as malicious as the left thinks it is, society would have fallen apart years ago.
     
besson3c
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Oct 23, 2017, 08:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It leaks out unconsciously.

It's appropriately aimed at some, not at others.

The right-wing intelligentsia is for the most part completely out of touch with poor people, which causes them to apply right-wing philosophy more aggressively than appropriate.

It isn't fair for them to do that, but neither is it fair to lump them in with those who use the philosophy as cover for malice.

If the right-wing was actually as malicious as the left thinks it is, society would have fallen apart years ago.

I don't think they are malicious (the general population, that is, some politicians seem to be), but they seem to cling to romantic notions and perhaps have a strong emotional attachment to some of these notions (e.g. this vague notion of freedom, America exceptionalism, welfare not being necessary, the free market being the solution to everything, their weird beliefs about guns taking down tyrannical governments, etc.)
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 23, 2017, 09:34 PM
 
Theres a little malice and a lot of ignorance. There is plenty of hate, but hate isn't always as hateful as hate makes it sound. Ignorance can be hateful too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 23, 2017, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its refreshing to see someone admit it.
I didnt realize most conservative were keeping it a secret that they didnt support socialism. The accusation that Christians should donate to all for healthcare, welfare and everything else was made by paco I believe. But it doesnt matter, it's an accusation always made by non christians. We were never the ones who said we wanted to give our money to everybody or that we believed we could support the world. Thats what ya'll have been saying. It's like yall need christians/conservatives to steal from.

This makes me question the overlap between 'more devout' Christians and patriotism. It seems like they should all want to live in their own country with their own laws and not some pesky document granting freedoms to any old git.
We do have our own country and own laws. All we want is the freedom to be left alone. A country where we used to have the right to be left alone. It's just being stolen from us by liberals who think with the same philosophy I used to think with as a teenager. But sadly with too much freedom to do what you want, to have responsibility of your own money and problems - and too much prosperity, comes the dumbing of the younger generations, which leads to a dumbing down of society as a whole, which leads to the kind of psychosis where people start demanding more government; because they haven't learned over the past few thousand years what growing government always leads to. That government always promises to fix all kinds of social problems, which it never does despite being given ever more money & power.

Its odd you assume everyone receiving welfare is demanding it and is ungrateful to receive it.
The bulk of them are ungrateful & demanding. Just read through this thread. What it amounts to is the forum bullies informing us how we owe more welfare, more healthcare, more charity/generosity etc. Everywhere you look in society now days you run into liberal bullies.

Meanwhile the notion that someone might pretend to be godly and go through those various motions in order to get free stuff from the congregation is unthinkable to you?
Where did I ever say this notion didnt cross my mind. Ive talked about this before; I even brought it up in this thread. It's easier to catch a swindler infiltrating your small circle where you know them more personally than on a mass scale such as swindling the government. This is where I said we could boot them out of our club. Government can't catch swindlers as easy because it doesn't have a personal relationship with them. Government adheres strictly to laws by the letter which always allows loopholes so even if they caught the swindlers theres nothing they could do as long as the i's were dotted T's crossed.

At least we have a universal truth. Everyone hates insurance.
what about the people who want government health insurance?

Atheists are well aware of your conditional generosity thanks. Some of you are only there because of it. Sorry to break it to you.
The nice thing about freedom is you're free to start your own localized clubs with "conditional" or unconditional generosity & wealth redistribution if that's what you really believe in and dont want to associate with churches... Of course this whole fake empathy to the poor thing isn't really about helping the less fortunate. It's about defining yourselves as "less fortunate", then taking advantage of the benefits you voted in for the "less fortunate". it's about trying to get government to steal from us to give to you, so it makes sense there aren't more non religious clubs of people who help each other.

Again the vibe Im getting with phrases like "conditional generosity" is that you think conservatives and christians owe you. As if you guys cant survive without conservatives paying more taxes, and donating more to the people you think they should donate to. Why cant you just leave us alone and make your own money? Or create your own communist circle? Why the insistence that us "ignorant" conservatives; us delusional childish 'guy in the clouds belivin' christians understand your superior intellectualized philosophy so we can be forced to be a part of it, and be forced to pay for it? Cant you guys pay for this yourselves? I understand that ALL liberals have bad luck and thats why none of their ideas never work out, but the intellectual superiority of liberals, the mind crushing problem solving skills, should be able to defeat any bad luck thats thrown at them.

Again, sounds like what you really want is CSA, the Christian State of America.
Nope. Just dont want to be told we need to give money to the people you decide, the causes you think are important. Or be told we're not charitable enough. Then have people who dont believe in our religion,much less understand it, laughably try to twist our religion to use against us.

Didn't Jesus heal people for free? Surely he should have charged them just to teach them the value of working hard and having savings? :/
So I take it you, Paco, and besson think Jesus with unlimited healing magic is somehow comparable to a healthcare/insurance system which is dependent on actual resources, limited resources?
BTW Jesus didnt heal everyone. He could have. He could have healed everyone for all time with the snap of his fingers, but didn't. Yet you and others here think for second your philosophies line up with his.
This in itself doesn't have to be philosophically intractable, but the follow up arguments for the right involve having more personal control over how others are helped. The right expects the left to trust that they will do the right things when sharing the wealth, but as El Chup has already stated, they won't. They will only help those who agree with them and follow their rules as part of their smaller communities.
The right doesn't expect the left to "trust" we'll share wealth appropriately. This is a really messed up way of thinking... You shouldn't expect anything of others except the from the people you know in your circles. You shouldn't need our wealth to survive. Stop being so dependent on conservatives & christians wealth "sharing" for your survival. You live in the same small communities as everyone else, be nice to them, form friendships with them, take care of each other. What would you do if conservatives ceased to exist, whose wealth would you force to be "shared" with you next?
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 24, 2017, 01:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I wanted to address this. I find this silly.
Is it theft to have to pay for a speeding ticket, or a ticket for not wearing your seatbelt?
If I wasnt speeding and got a ticket (which happens) then yes. Otherwise no, it's not theft because I can choose to not pay it by not speeding.

By living in a place, you agree to the rules used to govern that place, whether or not you agree with them. If you disagree with the rules, you are free to change them democratically, or move somewhere else. Otherwise, your consent is in the form of living in that place and agreeing to abide by its rules.
Conservative are attempting to use the democratic process to change things back to the way they should be; and progressives are having an absolute trigger fit about it. The fit is even evident in other threads of this forum.

Welfare is part of the social contract. It is incredibly ironic to me that we are discussing Christian morals and some are making implications that welfare is a bad thing because it is theft. When are we going to talk about things we can do to care for our fellow men and women, like Jesus would have wanted?
You are being quite hypocritical here. For one, conservatives aren't adamant about getting rid of welfare, but it is out of control (And regardless of what you think it's most definitely NOT what Jesus would've wanted). YOU are the one who brought up welfare. I didn't start complaining about it. I just answered the question that technically it is "theft" if it's taken against people's will. Mostly Im correcting you guys on twisting bible quotes into a perversion. The bible is extremely anti-government overall.

Your statement about "living in a place... agreeing to the rules etc.".. applies more to you and progressives than to conservatives. WE didn't chose to live in a welfare state. We were largely born in a in a country with very limited welfare, and more personal freedom. People like YOU (progressives) are the one's always complaining that we don't vote for more taxes, wealth redistribution etc.. We just want our life, our country to largely remain the same politically without constant knee jerk social justice changes. Our country was more productive / efficient during past times.

The whole reason you want government wealth distribution solutions is because we've become a more impersonal society with less & looser friendships, so people are having trouble getting help from others in their community who they should be tight friends with. Who wants to do the work to be a good friend to community members though when government can just pay for everything with stolen money?

To just call welfare theft with implications that we should not be helping people with something that effectively replaces the services that welfare provides (and I'm talking about much more than Chongo's catholic hospitals), there is no way you can call yourself a Christian. Period. To say otherwise is completely delusional.
No offense but you dont know the first thing about Christianity, Jesus, or likely any religion for that matter. If you (or others) did you wouldn't be speaking in the 'footnotes' version of christianity that every atheist throws at us and act like it's news to us; ie, "Jesus is for helping all the poor, Jesus is for donating to all, Jesus is for government welfare, healthcare programs & socialism, Jesus said pay your taxes once".


Jesus was all about helping the poor. Obviously there needs to be practical limits and constraints to make society work for everybody, but that is a separate discussion. What it boils down to is would Jesus want to help people or not, and the answer will always be yes.
No he wasn't. And no he wouldn't. If he believed in helping everyone, he would have. Jesus only helped certain people, not everybody. Jesus said "love your neighbor" not "love the world". Jesus said "go against the world". Jesus helped people who humbly asked for his help (they were healed if they had faith). He didnt just offer it to every bozo on the street nor command his followers to share the wealth with every bozo on the street.

So, unless you have some system in mind for replacing our welfare systems and the services they provide, do shut up and re-read your bibles.
I'm terribly amused that I, as practically an atheist, has to school you clowns on what the bible is about.
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
subego
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Oct 24, 2017, 04:23 AM
 


Has uncovered nakedness.
     
subego
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Oct 24, 2017, 06:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Theres a little malice and a lot of ignorance. There is plenty of hate, but hate isn't always as hateful as hate makes it sound. Ignorance can be hateful too.
Or it can just be ignorance.
     
besson3c
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Oct 24, 2017, 08:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
No he wasn't. And no he wouldn't. If he believed in helping everyone, he would have. Jesus only helped certain people, not everybody. Jesus said "love your neighbor" not "love the world". Jesus said "go against the world". Jesus helped people who humbly asked for his help (they were healed if they had faith). He didnt just offer it to every bozo on the street nor command his followers to share the wealth with every bozo on the street.
Maybe you can enlighten me what all of Paco's quotes really mean then, and when you are done with those, here is more for you to explain:

http://www.borgenmagazine.com/9-quot...help-the-poor/

Seems pretty damn clear to me. For example:

Mark 10:21-22
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, ‘You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
I can't believe I'm quoting the bible.
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 24, 2017, 11:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe you can enlighten me what all of Paco's quotes really mean then, and when you are done with those, here is more for you to explain:

http://www.borgenmagazine.com/9-quot...help-the-poor/
I already did, if you didn't read them the 1st time you wont read them the 2nd. You've already decided you're going to interpret the bible to support big government & socialism. Did you even read the article you posted? Aside from the fact it just rehashes what paco already posted, it starts with this piece of propaganda: "A major message of the New Testament and Jesus Christ is that humanity should do all that it can to help the poor. These lessons ring true especially for Americans, where many of those who advocate cuts to social spending and foreign aid also have a deep, intense connection with Jesus and Christianity."

So.... Trying to further the cause of government "social spending" again... And pretending that America still has poor people. The bible's references to "poor" are about people who don't have the most basic needs, people who are starving to death. These people today would be represented by the kind of poverty of Africa, East Timor, or Bangladesh. Who is the biggest advocate on macnn about 3rd world exploitation? el chupacabra, not our good hearted forum liberals, for they only care about themselves and are perfectly fine with an exploitative economy that benefits themselves. Very few take a knee or protest an evil that benefits thyself.

The poor man at Lazarus's gate was his neighbor, he was begging to be hired as a slave while starving to death. Therefore Lazarus should've taken care of him.

Mark 10:21-22
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, ‘You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’ When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
I can't believe I'm quoting the bible.
Wow. Look at that, it's what I've been saying all along! Jesus gave them the CHOICE. He allowed the man to walk away and keep his possessions. He didn't go to government and say take all these people's money and redistribute it. Although it would've been very easy for him to do so even in the context of his time. If the man had gone to give to the poor he wouldn't have gone off to give money to government, or to give money to poor on the other side of the country, but he would have given to people in his small community who he knew. He would choose what poor people to give to; because thats only whats natural during the time... Which is what I've been saying all along.
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
Chongo  (op)
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Oct 24, 2017, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post



I can't believe I'm quoting the bible.
Then this will blow your mind.
Matthew 25:14-30
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

The Parable of the Talents
14 “For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property;
15 to one he gave five talents,[a] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more.
17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more.
18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’
21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’
23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’
26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?
27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.[b]
30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
A talent is a measure of gold.
     
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Oct 24, 2017, 11:53 AM
 
From Luke.
Luke 19:11-27
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

The Parable of the Ten Pounds
11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately.
12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive kingly power[a] and then return.
13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten pounds,[b] and said to them, ‘Trade with these till I come.’
14 But his citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’
15 When he returned, having received the kingly power,[c] he commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by trading.
16 The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your pound has made ten pounds more.’
17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your pound has made five pounds.’
19 And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’
20 Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your pound, which I kept laid away in a napkin;
21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you did not sow.’
22 He said to him, ‘I will condemn you out of your own mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow?
23 Why then did you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have collected it with interest?’
24 And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the pound from him, and give it to him who has the ten pounds.’
25 (And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten pounds!’)
26 ‘I tell you, that to every one who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’”
     
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Oct 24, 2017, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post


Wow. Look at that, it's what I've been saying all along! Jesus gave them the CHOICE. He allowed the man to walk away and keep his possessions. He didn't go to government and say take all these people's money and redistribute it. Although it would've been very easy for him to do so even in the context of his time. If the man had gone to give to the poor he wouldn't have gone off to give money to government, or to give money to poor on the other side of the country, but he would have given to people in his small community who he knew. He would choose what poor people to give to; because thats only whats natural during the time... Which is what I've been saying all along.
He told him to give to the poor, not to the government. It was also about his attachment to his possessions.
     
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Oct 24, 2017, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
!!!really?!!!

Has uncovered nakedness.
This looks like the work of the infamous Mohamed video director.
     
besson3c
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Oct 24, 2017, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Wow. Look at that, it's what I've been saying all along! Jesus gave them the CHOICE. He allowed the man to walk away and keep his possessions. He didn't go to government and say take all these people's money and redistribute it. Although it would've been very easy for him to do so even in the context of his time. If the man had gone to give to the poor he wouldn't have gone off to give money to government, or to give money to poor on the other side of the country, but he would have given to people in his small community who he knew. He would choose what poor people to give to; because thats only whats natural during the time... Which is what I've been saying all along.
The democratic government that would have existed at year 0, or whatever the hell time period this was?

This is a twisted and demented interpretation, and you know it. Look at the overall sentiment of all of these quotes, not some sort of semantic/quasi-legal interpretation. The overall sentiment is that there is never a time when Jesus would not want what is best for the poor. Whether the poor are aided through a modern government or whatever power/organizational structure that would have existed back then, the objective is to care for the poor as best we can.

Again, until you can come up with a better system for caring for the poor, these weird rationalizations of yours will not fly with me.
     
besson3c
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Oct 24, 2017, 12:39 PM
 
Chongo: I'm not interested in trying to out-bible you, I shouldn't have even went down that path of quoting verses - I should have known it would invite squabbling over interpretations. I don't really care about the bible, I'm just trying to say that if you really, REALLY in your heart of hearts think that Jesus would not want us to do as much as we can via whatever means to help the poor, then this is exactly why Christianity has lost its way and moral high ground.

Cause it's plainly ****ing obvious that Jesus is all about helping the poor. I mean, duh?
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 24, 2017, 01:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Then this will blow your mind.
I'm not sure if the moral of the story is to invest wisely, or not to insult your boss.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 24, 2017, 02:42 PM
 
I'm not well versed in 'interpretations' but I thought 'render unto Caesar' kind of negates the taxes are theft thing
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2017, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I didnt realize most conservative were keeping it a secret that they didnt support socialism. The accusation that Christians should donate to all for healthcare, welfare and everything else was made by paco I believe. But it doesnt matter, it's an accusation always made by non christians. We were never the ones who said we wanted to give our money to everybody or that we believed we could support the world. Thats what ya'll have been saying. It's like yall need christians/conservatives to steal from.

The refreshing part is that you admit you only help out those who meet your conditions. A fair, structured welfare system has to help anyone and everyone who needs it without infringing on their freedoms (for example freedom of religion).


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
We do have our own country and own laws.
No you don't. The US was not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded specifically on secular values otherwise you would have no freedom religion at all, which is what you require in order for your model to work.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
All we want is the freedom to be left alone. A country where we used to have the right to be left alone. It's just being stolen from us by liberals who think with the same philosophy I used to think with as a teenager. But sadly with too much freedom to do what you want, to have responsibility of your own money and problems - and too much prosperity, comes the dumbing of the younger generations, which leads to a dumbing down of society as a whole, which leads to the kind of psychosis where people start demanding more government; because they haven't learned over the past few thousand years what growing government always leads to. That government always promises to fix all kinds of social problems, which it never does despite being given ever more money & power.
I'm inclined to believe its more a case of getting jaded, intolerant, insular and selfish as you get older. The complete opposite.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The bulk of them are ungrateful & demanding. Just read through this thread. What it amounts to is the forum bullies informing us how we owe more welfare, more healthcare, more charity/generosity etc. Everywhere you look in society now days you run into liberal bullies.
This is just ignorant bullshit no doubt acquired from ignorant bullshit sources.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Where did I ever say this notion didnt cross my mind. Ive talked about this before; I even brought it up in this thread. It's easier to catch a swindler infiltrating your small circle where you know them more personally than on a mass scale such as swindling the government. This is where I said we could boot them out of our club. Government can't catch swindlers as easy because it doesn't have a personal relationship with them. Government adheres strictly to laws by the letter which always allows loopholes so even if they caught the swindlers theres nothing they could do as long as the i's were dotted T's crossed.
Great, so not being content with having your own rules, you want to reduce your limited Christian welfare to essentially people who your local religious leaders happen to like, or more realistically people who do what they are told in exchange for the help. This is akin to prostitution, slavery and/or tyranny. It is utterly without conscience.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
what about the people who want government health insurance?
People want affordable healthcare. No one likes insurance.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The nice thing about freedom is you're free to start your own localized clubs with "conditional" or unconditional generosity & wealth redistribution if that's what you really believe in and dont want to associate with churches... Of course this whole fake empathy to the poor thing isn't really about helping the less fortunate. It's about defining yourselves as "less fortunate", then taking advantage of the benefits you voted in for the "less fortunate". it's about trying to get government to steal from us to give to you, so it makes sense there aren't more non religious clubs of people who help each other.
What you don't seem to understand is that society affords you the opportunities to succeed and profit within it. Therefore you owe society and society in turn owes its citizens for every sacrifice they make and every risk they take. Society needs people, some families have kids with very expensive health conditions and disabilities. They took a risk fulfilling a need and got screwed for it. Just one perspective on one example. Moreno in the past than now, for one person to succeed, they had to exploit countless others. Think the mill owners and the six year olds working under the machines, or the mine owners and the kids working in the smallest tunnels. Then they get black lung and the owner says "Tough shit, its not my fault you got ill, you should have saved the pittance I paid you for a doctor." He gets rich off their backs, they get screwed again. This is why taxation and welfare exists. You will never successfully justify being selfish, greedy, insular, and inconsiderate.

Your system is open to horrifying abuse. You'd end up buying votes for even more tax breaks and even less workers rights. Somewhere between feudalism and the industrial revolution. Ah the good old days. Its time to evolve and catch up to the 21st century instead of harking backwards to a time it was even easier to screw your fellow man.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Again the vibe Im getting with phrases like "conditional generosity" is that you think conservatives and christians owe you. As if you guys cant survive without conservatives paying more taxes, and donating more to the people you think they should donate to. Why cant you just leave us alone and make your own money? Or create your own communist circle? Why the insistence that us "ignorant" conservatives; us delusional childish 'guy in the clouds belivin' christians understand your superior intellectualized philosophy so we can be forced to be a part of it, and be forced to pay for it? Cant you guys pay for this yourselves? I understand that ALL liberals have bad luck and thats why none of their ideas never work out, but the intellectual superiority of liberals, the mind crushing problem solving skills, should be able to defeat any bad luck thats thrown at them.
This sounds like you think everyone with money is a conservative. I'm sure Silicon Valley has some ideas about that.


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Nope. Just dont want to be told we need to give money to the people you decide, the causes you think are important. Or be told we're not charitable enough. Then have people who dont believe in our religion,much less understand it, laughably try to twist our religion to use against us.
You want to have your cake and eat it. Its called greed and its supposed to be one of your deadly sins isn't it?


Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
So I take it you, Paco, and besson think Jesus with unlimited healing magic is somehow comparable to a healthcare/insurance system which is dependent on actual resources, limited resources?
BTW Jesus didnt heal everyone. He could have. He could have healed everyone for all time with the snap of his fingers, but didn't. Yet you and others here think for second your philosophies line up with his.
I think he's a work of fiction. His healing abilities were for sure. :/

Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The right doesn't expect the left to "trust" we'll share wealth appropriately. This is a really messed up way of thinking... You shouldn't expect anything of others except the from the people you know in your circles. You shouldn't need our wealth to survive. Stop being so dependent on conservatives & christians wealth "sharing" for your survival. You live in the same small communities as everyone else, be nice to them, form friendships with them, take care of each other. What would you do if conservatives ceased to exist, whose wealth would you force to be "shared" with you next?
You want to legislate opportunities for localised corruption where you all want to be that one guy in old Westerns who owns most of the town, the bank, the saloon etc and everyone else has to do as he says or they get run out of town because he pays for the sheriffs too. What a despicable ambition. Not very Christian at all.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Oct 24, 2017, 07:24 PM
 
Chongo and El Chup: if Jesus showed up in this thread and demanded that you poop your pants, would you? I mean, if he could prove with absolutely no uncertainty that he was actually Jesus, no games - the real deal.

I would, because in part I would be incredibly surprised as a non-believer so much so that I would do it in awe and fear. In fact, I would probably do a better job at it because of the fear since I'm not moral like you. But then, if he was Jesus and loves everybody he would probably say "nah, it's okay you don't really have to poop your pants, I just wanted to boss you around for a minute" and then we'd both have a good laugh that I nearly did it.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2017, 07:47 PM
 
A lovely moral example of the sorts of things Christians get up to when they are left alone.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-u...y-child-brides

Because its not abuse if you marry them. Even afterwards.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2017, 07:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Or it can just be ignorance.
Are the KKK just ignorant? No hate at all?

Theres plenty of hate going around on all sides but I feel like hating people for being greedy, for oppressing others, for persecuting others is not the same as hating people just because they are different or because they like sharing more than you do.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2017, 08:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I already did, if you didn't read them the 1st time you wont read them the 2nd. You've already decided you're going to interpret the bible to support big government & socialism.
Its not about the bible supporting big government or socialism really, its that big government and socialism are the only mechanisms that can be trusted to implement the levels of care and generosity that the bible teaches.

I feel like someone who was found half starved and feverish on Amish land would be fed and cared for until he was well, then sent merrily on his way. They might not build him a house and give him land to tend, but they will make him well again and treat him with courtesy and basic respect regardless of his race, religion or political affiliations. Your version implies that as soon as its discovered he's not a Christian, he can go starve and die, that he'd be dumped on the road at the border of your land and left to fend for himself.

A decent welfare system should provide everyone with basic healthcare and food. There is an argument that any country that can afford it should also provide housing of some kind too, otherwise health is likely to suffer before long and getting or keeping a job without an address and access to clean clothes and a shower is nigh on impossible.

Welfare can be done in such a way that its temporary, fair, provides rehabilitation and just gets people back on their feet without being open to abuse, it just so happens that no government I've seen yet seems to know how to do that. It doesn't help that a typically lefty version of welfare seems to involve free everything with no questions ever asked and a typical right wing version involves taking anyone with a stubbed toe out the back and shooting them.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 24, 2017, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Are the KKK just ignorant? No hate at all?
I was talking about the people who aren't "always as hateful as hate makes it sound".

Presumably, this group does not include the KKK.
     
el chupacabra
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Oct 26, 2017, 01:42 AM
 
Things Im reminded of when liberals constantly call conservatives ignorant



wish I had a dime for every time... I swear I'd donate half of it to the tried & true socialist solutions party of the United States.
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
 
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