[SirCastor]

I've been browsing some of the threads around the forums this morning, and I'm beginning to wonder if we're a little too harsh when new folks show up with a problem. Yes, they have poor punctuation. Yes, they write MAC instead of Mac. Yes, they post to the lounge instead of the proper forum. And of course there are a number of them that are really just spammers.

But I see some genuine help being sought, and half of us jump on them like vicious tigers. Are we too rough because they haven't been indoctrinated into the group?

[Cipher13]

Nothing makes up for poor grammar/punctuation. That's nothing to do with being a "noob", just being poorly educated.

Posting to the right forum is a matter of logic, and failure to do so denotes a lack thereof, which isn't acceptable in my opinion.

I'm drunk, and I can manage this. Somebody sober should be able to do far better.

[Ghoser777]

I think we should be harder. Allowing me to sneak in to the Lounge after building my post count in the other sections was one of the greatest mistakes in MacNN history.

[OldManMac]

Nah, we need to be able to feel better about ourselves, so anything goes.

[osiris]

I can't recall any recent incidents that fit your description, except for that recent spammer with the pick-up tips website. Even that was civil.

OTOH corrective treatment of Grand High Vile Acts - such as using MAC when they mean Mac - are warranted in my book, but without the namecalling and threats. Unless they really deserve it.

[chris v]

People who don't use caps or punctuation need to be called on it because it makes it impossible to understand their problem, and thus render aid.

"need help wtf my MAc isnt working whan i plug it in the internet what do i do please hope me LOL"

isn't something that can be rationally responded to with any success.

[TheoCryst]

People need to realize that the Internet isn't one giant text message. You have over 100 keys in front of you: it only takes a few extra milliseconds to capitalize the start of a sentence, and to finish with a period. There is no excuse for poor grammar and spelling beyond laziness.

So no, I don't think we're too hard. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[boots]

Originally Posted by chris v 

"need help wtf my MAc isnt working whan i plug it in the internet what do i do please hope me LOL"

isn't something that can be rationally responded to with any success.

"Sir, put the computer back in the box and ship it back to the manufacturer. There has been a serious operator error, and the only rational solution is to remove the operator from the proximity of technology."

Sounds rational to me, and I suspect it would be more successful to keep the schmucks away from computers than to arm them with just enough knowledge to be pains in the arse.

[MacosNerd]

I'd say between the folks who get all upset at seeing MAC, and the grammar nazi, I'd say whole heartidly that we are overly harsh on noobs and even forum regulars. The difference is that some of the noobs don't come back.

As for the grammar being sign of poor education, I disagree with that assessment. I admit my grammar is poor, but my education level is high. I have degree in MIS and an accounting degree, yet my grammar skills are poor to say the least. Like with lots of things in life you cannot broadly say that its poor education.

Overall these forums can be seen as a bit hostile at times. The other forums I frequent aren't as anal when a new member asks question about a MAC. In fact the question is generally answered without someone correcting the OP that its Mac and not MAC.

Finally you have the MOD/Admin wannabes telling the OP how they broke the rules and should have known better.

[Chuckit]

Is expecting people to have the consideration to communicate like a functional human being here really so unreasonable? I'm not saying to go and eliminate a newbie's family if he posts unintelligible garbage, but if somebody isn't willing to put in the effort or show us some basic consideration, I don't see why other people should feel obligated to pick up the slack for him.

For me, anyway, part of what makes these forums so good is that we have a relatively high level of quality to the posts here. Even our stupid posts are not so bad in the big picture. If we stopped expecting anything from the people who come here, the forums would go to pot and a lot of longtime posters would probably lose interest.

(Note: This is, of course, my take and not an official statement of policy by MacNN or any such nonsense.)

[chris v]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I'd say between the folks who get all upset at seeing MAC, and the grammar nazi, I'd say whole heartidly that we are overly harsh on noobs and even forum regulars. The difference is that some of the noobs don't come back.

As for the grammar being sign of poor education, I disagree with that assessment. I admit my grammar is poor, but my education level is high. I have degree in MIS and an accounting degree, yet my grammar skills are poor to say the least. Like with lots of things in life you cannot broadly say that its poor education.

Yet your post is chock-full of capitals at the beginning of sentences, periods at their end, apostrophes in contractions, etc. I.E. it's at least intelligible.

[Sherman Homan]

Heh, heh, he said whole "heartidly".
Off with his head.

[sek929]

loL you MAC guys R sooo ruff on newbs j/k lol

[is not]

LOL

How do I do to post code? Is anything like [code] or is not? Thanks!

[Jawbone54]

[chris v]

Originally Posted by boots 

"Sir, put the computer back in the box and ship it back to the manufacturer. There has been a serious operator error, and the only rational solution is to remove the operator from the proximity of technology."

LOL AMIRITE

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by chris v 

Yet your post is chock-full of capitals at the beginning of sentences, periods at their end, apostrophes in contractions, etc. I.E. it's at least intelligible.

Thanks, but my grammar skill level is low. That doesn't mean I don't try to make a cohesive well constructed and punctuated post. Its just that I fail and there's certain grammar concepts that completely baffle me. Yet when the errors do crop up, there are people here that decide to correct my grammar. The incredulous thing is that a number of these folks who condemn me and my grammar have spelling errors. Seems hypercritical, nail me for my grammar but their posts typically have spelling errors.

The whole, complain about the speck in my eye while they have a board in theirs

[KeriVit]

Yes.

[Rumor]

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think my keyboard has 100 keys.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Thanks, but my grammar skill level is low. That doesn't mean I don't try to make a cohesive, well constructed and punctuated post — it's just that I fail, and there are certain grammar concepts that completely baffle me. Yet, when the errors do crop up, there are people here that decide to correct my grammar. The incredulous thing is that a number of the folks who condemn me and my grammar have spelling errors [of their own]. It seems hypercritical to nail me for my grammar, but their posts typically have spelling errors , too.

The whole, "complain about the speck in my eye while they have a board in theirs..."

Fixed™ (without a complete rewrite)

And I got rid of all your damn double spaces after periods, too.

[Jawbone54]

79 keys on my PowerBook.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Fixed™ (without a complete rewrite)

And I got rid of all your damn double spaces after periods, too.

But you missed "hypercritical" (hypocritical).

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But you missed "hypercritical" (hypocritical).

Sorry mate, but hypercritical really is a word -- but I'm not wagering he knew it was.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Sorry mate, but hypercritical really is a word

I know. But no way would it have fit that context.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think my keyboard has 100 keys.

It does when you use modifiers.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

And I got rid of all your damn double spaces after periods, too.

Did I miss some sarcasm, or have double spaces after periods been axed?

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

Did I miss some sarcasm, or have double spaces after periods been axed?

Yeah, we axed them when we quit using typewriters.

[Sealobo]

from my observation, some of these newbies are pretty rude and lack a sense of humor. I mean, it's okay to be rude, but not getting the jokes is unacceptable.

[boots]

^Yeah, none of the regulars are rude or lack a sense of humor.

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Yeah, we axed them when we quit using typewriters.

In who's style guide?

[Sealobo]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Yeah, we axed them when we quit using typewriters.

i once busted someone who lied about her age when she used double-space after full-stop.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Thanks, but my grammar skill level is low. That doesn't mean I don't try to make a cohesive well constructed and punctuated post. Its just that I fail and there's certain grammar concepts that completely baffle me. Yet when the errors do crop up, there are people here that decide to correct my grammar. The incredulous thing is that a number of these folks who condemn me and my grammar have spelling errors. Seems hypercritical, nail me for my grammar but their posts typically have spelling errors.

The whole, complain about the speck in my eye while they have a board in theirs

Why don't you just take the time to learn the rules you consistently misuse? They are just not that hard to get a handle on MacOSNerd, I think you are highly capable of learning them, and doing so won't just benefit you in here, but it will also benefit you in life.

The whole speck in my eye argument is a flawed argument. Nobody is expecting consistent perfection in every post, but making the same basic mistakes consistently just shows a lack of awareness. In most cases, pointing this out is a simple attempt to make the poster aware of this so that he/she can make the choice to correct the problem. Why be defensive? This stuff is just not that hard, just fix it... For instance, do you know that questions need a question mark at the end to indicate a question? Really, is that hard? Does it take a lot of effort to print a question mark? Just fix it!

[besson3c]

Another thing: the whole "it's just the internet" argument... I'm convinced that that is a B.S. argument.

When one has a handle on writing properly it becomes second nature to them. They literally have to go out of their way to make mistakes. The best way to correct bad habits is not to think about correcting habits, but to correct bad habits with good ones - with coming up with new writing "defaults".

If I see a string of posts where a poster misuses too/to, they're/their/there, etc. you can almost bet it's because this person does not have a handle on these differences. There are no excuses (save English not being a native language and dyslexia), and no sense in justifying otherwise.

What kills me is that in many cases these fixes are pretty easy once you make a conscious effort to do so. Why anybody would *want* or not be bothered by sounding like half of the idiots that post YouTube comments is beyond me. Do people not take pride in their own intellect and intellectual capacity? We are all capable of getting a better handle on this stuff, it just requires a conscious decision.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by boots 

In who's style guide?

Nice one. Though that'd slip by, did ya?

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why don't you just take the time to learn the rules you consistently misuse? They are just not that hard to get a handle on MacOSNerd, I think you are highly capable of learning them, and doing so won't just benefit you in here, but it will also benefit you in life.\

I have no desire to argue this point. You seem to be the one with the problem not me. I've said it many times already but you seem to either not get it, or decide that in your passive-aggressive ways you try to irritate me.

I'll say it again so that it might finally sink in. I have issues with grammar, I readily admit that but there are reasons, to which I choose not to go explain no an internet forum. Please accept this and mind your own business. I don't need a grammar nazi telling me what I'm doing wrong as I post in a forum. The sooner you get this the better it will be

[besson3c]

Your choice dude. I can't fathom why you would spend so much time debating on this board without at least attempting to convince the person you are debating with that you are at least as smart as they are in order to manipulate the balance of the debate in your favor, but whatever...

[Big Mac]

I think we're pretty nice to noobs, for the most part. Most of us deal cheerfully with the same questions being asked again and again. Those who can hardly write an English sentence annoy me, but AFAIK that's pretty rare around here.

[boots]

Originally Posted by chris v 

Nice one. Though that'd slip by, did ya?

I can but try, good sir.

[Jawbone54]

I don't think that people are necessarily mean to most forum newbies. I think we just tend to ignore them until they've been around for a while.

When I first came around (March 2005), no one responded to any posts that I made. I would say, "Hey, that's an interesting conversation they have going. I think I'll chime in." Then I'd post, and not a soul would respond. They'd just move on to the next post.

That being said, I'm kind of glad that's the way things are around here. I guess you could say I agree with Chuckit. Without some kind of "hazing" process, the quality of conversation might deteriorate to the point that I, for one, wouldn't bother returning as often as I do.

In other words, thanks for ignoring me for a year, everyone!

[besson3c]

I don't mind newbie questions, but aside from sounding like a dumbass, not stating your problem as clearly as you can and providing as much relevant as possible so that we can begin to troubleshoot a problem is somewhat annoying, as is asking questions that could be easily answered with a forum or Google search. Not annoying enough to warrant rudeness, but it does take a little restraint (I get this with my family too, so this is not unique to this forum).

[Jawbone54]

I'm glad I'm not your mother.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by boots 

^Yeah, none of the regulars are rude or lack a sense of humor.


In who's style guide?

Well, you could just check the MLA if you're a college student. I think the MLA killed it way back in 90s. Or, you could just do a search. Maybe you're too young to remember typesetting?

[Faust]

Dyslexia, dysgraphia, aphasia, non-English mother-tonque ... there are so many reasons why someone might not be able to write in such a way that might be expected of them by some. Poor grammar and spelling do not necessarily indicate poor education or laziness, or the lack of being smart. I wonder what makes people think that way. Lack of education, perhaps? I am not talking about people who use capital letters exclusively or those who really are just lazy.

[besson3c]

Faust,

Unless that person makes him/herself known that they are afflicted with one of those conditions or that English isn't their first language (and the latter is usually self-evident), it is natural to make assumptions and form impressions whether you are talking about real life or a forum like this. We are all responsible for the impressions that we give (bad and good), and it is perfectly natural for people to react in accordance to the impression that has been formed.

In my opinion, if you are creating the impression that you are too lazy to correct your glaring writing problems (either by stating outwardly that you don't care, or blowing off people pointing out the problems), you lack a sense of pride in yourself and the impression that you create.

I don't understand how even though this board is overflowing with political incorrectness, so many are politically correct and passive about this sort of stuff. Let's face it, the vast majority of the time, these sorts of problems are due to laziness. Why should we not form impressions and judge accordingly?

The worst of it is that figuring out the differences to these sort of things is simply *not* that hard. Most of us are absolutely capable of putting in the time to learn this stuff, it's not rocket science.

[Faust]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a dislike for bad grammar and spelling. I love language when applied in a beautiful manner. I merely think that it is too easy to just equate bad grammar/spelling with the level of a person's intellect. I would agree with the notion that a large percentage of people have simply forgotten how to write (and perhaps how to speak) or simply never bothered to learn their own language properly. I just think it's absurd to generalize.

Edit: To the question at hand: Yes, I do find that there is a lot of hostility going on. A novice user has most likely not been introduced to the general humour or etiquette that are characteristic to these forums. Some of the responses by a few veteran users do come off as being a little pert at times.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by TheoCryst 

People need to realize that the Internet isn't one giant text message. You have over 100 keys in front of you: it only takes a few extra milliseconds to capitalize the start of a sentence, and to finish with a period. There is no excuse for poor grammar and spelling beyond laziness.

I knew it! I had suspected Apple were screwing me, but I didn't have proof until now. My iBook has 77 keys. What the hell happened to the other 25-odd? That's what I'd like to know!

You're right about the internet not being a giant text message. There really is no excuse for not making at least some effort to use capitalisation, punctuation and full words. I'm near-obsessive compulsive when it comes to my spelling and grammar (a hangover from studying literature), but I don't ream someone just because they used a semicolon incorrectly, or they type "there" instead of "their"; these are genuine mistakes, and I know a lot of incredibly intelligent people who make these mistakes unintentionally.

Unfortunately, it seems that a general disregard for the English language is becoming increasingly widespread. One of my friends teaches English at a secondary school, and she gets essays turned in full of "txt speek", and is frequently asked why it's not acceptable. Either through laziness, poor education or a lack of interest, people are becoming increasingly prone to using "txt" outside of the context in which it is intended for use. (In the interest of complete disclosure, I should say that I don't use txt speak even when I send an SMS; I just can't bring myself to do it.)

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

And I got rid of all your damn double spaces after periods, too.

I didn't realise that had gone out the window. I did Office and Information Studies (AKA Secretarial Studies in a more honest time) when I was at school, and they taught us to put a double-space after a full-stop. It's a habit that I've never managed to rid myself of, and one that went unremarked-upon throughout my entire tertiary education. In all honesty, I actually quite like it.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

When one has a handle on writing properly it becomes second nature to them. They literally have to go out of their way to make mistakes. The best way to correct bad habits is not to think about correcting habits, but to correct bad habits with good ones - with coming up with new writing "defaults".

I agree with that, and I think I fall into the above category. I genuinely have to think before I can start making serious errors in anything I write, and I think it's because the right way of doing things has become default.

If I see a string of posts where a poster misuses too/to, they're/their/there, etc. you can almost bet it's because this person does not have a handle on these differences. There are no excuses (save English not being a native language and dyslexia), and no sense in justifying otherwise.

I think you're being slightly harsh here, though. It does bother me when I come across these errors, but some people are not linguistically minded, and such differences are hard for them to remember, let alone implement all the time. The amount of times I've seen stray apostrophes is beyond count, but I make a point of just ignoring them. If I didn't, I'd end up spending about three-quarters of my life (both in reality and virtually) lecturing people about exactly why "DVDs" does not have an apostrophe. It would make me appear a sanctimonious ass, and I'm not sure my blood-pressure would be healthy either.

All in all, I agree with the general consensus of this thread: if someone makes an effort to appear lucid and coherent, then I'm willing to forgive them their mistakes, like writing CD's or MAC. If they can't even spare the effort to write something somewhat approaching standard English, then I have no time for them.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Faust 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a dislike for bad grammar and spelling. I love language when applied in a beautiful manner. I merely think that it is too easy to just equate bad grammar/spelling with the level of a person's intellect. I would agree with the notion that a large percentage of people have simply forgotten how to write (and perhaps how to speak) or simply never bothered to learn their own language properly. I just think it's absurd to generalize.

This kind of equating and calculation goes on all the time whether it is in the context of good grammar or otherwise, and will continue to happen. Stop and count how many assumptions are formed around here about just about anything, there is no end to it.

This is inescapable because this is a text only medium. All we have to go by is text, so if you want to make a favorable impression, learn to write in a way that doesn't make you sound like a dumbass.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by Faust 

Some of the responses by a few veteran users do come off as being a little pert at times.

Okay, so I know I just spouted off about how I don't want to be a sanctimonious ass, but I thought that comment really needed to be preserved for posterity in case you noticed it and corrected it.

My apologies, but I really couldn't resist.

Edit: And after a quick look at the Dictionary in OSX, I now look like a total ass. I didn't realise that "pert" could also mean "impudent".

[besson3c]

Koraltov: I don't think I'm being harsh when what I said is qualified (as I tried to do) and the mistakes in question are *consistent* and particular errors. I'm not sure I buy the whole "linguistic minded" argument either. I don't have an English background, and I know many others that don't either yet have figured out these basic grammatical rules.

Like anything, a certain amount of skill can be learned... Perhaps being linguistic minded makes this come more naturally, but I still maintain that anybody with a functioning brain and no obvious disadvantage can figure out the differences between "your" and "you're". I just don't think it is that hard - certainly no harder than figuring out how to use your computer well enough to register and post here

[boots]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Well, you could just check the MLA if you're a college student. I think the MLA killed it way back in 90s. Or, you could just do a search. Maybe you're too young to remember typesetting?

Nope, they didn't kill it. But the reason for one space being accepted is because of justification, not because two spaces is stylistically wrong. If it's not justified or type set, two spaces are fine.

[0157988944]

I respond to anyone who I can understand without trying hard.

I don't respond to people who write blocks of text; not paragraphs, mind you, just huge chunks. I also get frustrated with people who get pissed off at being told they've done something wrong when they came here asking for help.

I am in favor of taking out the family of anyone who comes in here saying "MAC." Why? Because if they are saying MAC then it's pretty clear that they have not really done much in the way of trying to figure out the problem for themselves. Plus the fact that "Mac" non-capitalized is written on practically everything you see when you get a new computer, on every Mac website and all over these forums. If they can't see that, it's unlikely they'll be able to follow troubleshooting directions or what have you.