[mkbhatia]

[sent to MacNN's general delivery mailbox]

You may already be aware of this, but if you are not, you may find it newsworthy. If you scroll through the pages of Tech Exchange in Apple's PowerBook Support site, you'll find numerous persons complaining about the quality of the latest PowerBooks' screens. The complaints generally revolve around a conspicuously bluish tint that seems to afflict them. Apple's response has been that they are looking into the matter but thus far (it has been at least a couple months now since this issue arose) nothing concrete, or even the least bit helpful, has come from them.

As an owner of a Pismo PowerBook, I performed a thorough examination of my screen and the machine as a whole. I did this mainly by comparing it with a Thinkpad 600. I have to say, to begin with, that the difference between the two machines is amazing. Not only is there a noticeably blue tint to my screen (which, however, can be alleviated slightly through ColorSync calibration), but to look at it in comparison with the ThinkPad's is like walking indoors after being out in the afternoon sun in the middle of summer. I was shocked by this.

And not only this, but the entire construction of the PowerBook instills no more confidence in Apple's quality control. I don't know if you've spent much time with this PowerBook model, but if you ever get a chance, close the clamshell and squeeze it a little. It squeaks, like a cheap toy. And a cheap toy is exactly what comes to mind when I examine it in comparison with the ThinkPad, every centimeter of which seems to have been constructed with the finest care. Even though the ThinkPad is lighter and thinner than the PowerBook, it has every appearance of being more rugged and durable. The cover doesn't give when you press down upon it, as the PowerBook's cover does; there's no squeaking; the keyboard doesn't leave any marks on the screen, even though, as I say, the ThinkPad's noticeably thinner (by the way, the ThinkPad 600 is a two-spindle machine, like the PowerBook, so this is a fair comparison); the cover latch springs shut immediately and clearly, whereas with the PowerBook, you have to double-check to see if the clambshell is shut firmly. And so on (there actually are many other features of the ThinkPad worth noting).

I'm writing this because the general consensus among the Mac publications (print and online) is that the PowerBook is second to none among notebooks. Specs-wise this may or may not be true, but in many other important respects (construction, overall quality), I think potential buyers should know that Apple leaves considerably much to be desired. It is also worth mentioning here that it is almost impossible to return an Apple product (only Outpost offers a money-back guarantee) and Apple is the only major computer company to offer only a one-year warranty for their professional-grade products. On top of this, if any one cares to investigate, Apple's customer relations track record is deplorable. To my knowledge, they are the only computer company that's ever downgraded a product line but still charged the same prices.

I think we all need to sober up about Apple.

[from Michael Suh, posted by MacNN Staff]

[This message has been edited by mkbhatia (edited 05-23-2000).]

I also have a PB2K, and it's screen is much brighter than my old PBG3. Of course, so are the iMac screens I work with. I assumed this to be an intentional effect by Apple with their new LCD screens, as it appeared to be uniform in the dozen or so laptops (iMac & PB2K) I've worked on.

I can't agree about the structural quality of the new PowerBooks though. As a Mac consultant, I've seen some doosies, but the most interesting testament to the "quality" of construction in the PB series was when a client of mine dropped his new powerbook off a 14 storey building a few weeks ago.

Surprising as this may sound, the 150 foot drop didn't kill the insides of the machine. The screen was smashed, of course, and the casing damaged severely, but the HD, RAM, and logic board remained intact and accessable.

Certainly the damage was severe, as one would suspect, but the fact that the internal structure of the 'book remaind intact is a testament to exactly how strong and stable the casing is, whether it "squeaks" or not. Don't laud or knock what you've never dropped off a balcony. You don't really know what you've got 'till it's gone.

Is Mr Suh Serious?? Is he really whining about a tiny cosmetic defects? I dont recall him complaining about general operation of powerbook other than Blueish tint.
No 1. Its a tool. Do u complain about , hmm let see, a hammer when it has a blueish tint to it? or small paint splattered over it? Many new workstations or laptops need little tweaking after purchase. No way around it. Even Mr Suh explained how he cured that "tint" problem.
No 2. Only reason for the concern about those tintish problem is when a user needs to retouch a photo or make a color correction. And, this is news to me, when does Laptop become a workstation to retouch a photo or make a color correction?
If Mr Suh wants to nit pick evry little things in life then i sugeest Mr Suh starts with himself and seek help.

[MAlan]

I agree with mkbhatia's take on the quality control matter. Unfortunately, this should have been expected. Apple went from almost going belly up to very strong financially speaking due to the tremendous demand for its iMac product. When you ramp up production that quickly quality is bound to suffer no matter how hard you may try to keep it under control.

Apple is now at a crossroads. They have been shipping large quantities of product for about 2 years now and its time to attack these quality issues and we all have to tell them that we are just not going to buy poorly made products no matter what the specs are.

Apple can either continue on this track and watch the word of mouth spread about their quality issues or they can invest in manufacturing expertise that will put some more focus on these issues...it is their choice. But I guarantee that the mac faithful will not stay around to watch their beloved company turn into a nickel and dime venture.

These issues are not just with the powerbook. The iMac DV line had issues with the screen in the corners. Their current operating system has a sound latency problem so severe that I have maintained an 8.6 partition on my machine for the sole purpose of audio recording. DVD playback is still problematic after all this time, mac OS 9.04 was problematic for many when they upgraded via the software update panel, every single computer they sell has sleep issues, and the list goes on.

I still love my DV/SE though and I enjoy the Mac OS even with all its current flaws. However, they have to start actually fixing these annoying 'new' problems that people have been putting up with for the better part of this year. The historical problems with the Mac OS...i.e. extension conflicts and the like will be fixed with OS X.

[Sean Li]

I think the points in the first post are well made - when you compare the PowerBooks' build quality to some of the Windows laptops (i.e. IBM and Sony, maybe others), they don't feel quite so solid. The screens always seem dimmer, and are not as consistent in brightness across PowerBooks of the same type.

This doesn't mean that the PowerBooks are not solid, and will not endure a lot of abuse, but it does feel like a bit of a let down when you use a ThinkPad and the keyboard doesn't flex *at all.*

Having said that, in terms of price/performance, Apple is still ahead of the pack, but they're going to have a hard time convincing the general public that the PowerBooks are faster or as fast as the leading Windows notebooks, because consumers will look at one thing above all: processor speed. And when you see 400Mhz G3 vs 700Mhz Pentium III, few people will dig deeper particularly when there is no way to definitively benchmark performance across different processors (there will always be questions about how well optimized the code for each machine is, the efficiency of the operating system, etc...)

I'd suggest that readers take a look at the specs for the new IBM ThinkPads, the A and T series. I think you'll find that Apple does have to get its act together to maintain their advances in portable technologies. They did it once with the first PowerBooks (from almost 10 years ago!), but they lapsed for a while until the G3 Series. Now PC laptops are catching up, and in a lot of cases, surpassing PowerBooks.

By the way, in response to the example about a PowerBook being dropped 150ft, you'll find that hard drive and RAM were not made by Apple. I would guess that if it were a controlled test made against other laptops, you'll find that other laptops would fare just as "well" as the PowerBook. A better test would be to drop them from, say, desk height, and see how much damage is endured.

FWIW

[active]

My comments differ slightly:

1. My Dell 3500 notebook (I own an Apple Firewire notebook, too) also results in key marks on the screen, when it has been moved around within the supplied Dell leather carrier/case. Indeed, I would say the marks are *worse* than any marks that appear on the Powerbook screen, when moved around in the same carrier/case.

2. I have a friend who owns a new Dell 5000, the ones with the XVGA (1400x1200!) screens and, quite frankly, the screen is 10x better than my Apple Powerbook...yet he paid the same amount for his Dell notebook.

Not only is the screen capable of 1400x1200 (or 1200x1024 etc), it also is incredibly clear - I really can't state this enough!


Ok, yep, the design is more square than the Apple Powerbook and even he commented that 'that Apple notebooks is well designed' (compared to his), but I'd rather have his notebook and his screen...running MacOS, than a 'better designed' notebook.

Oh, his Dell 5000 notebook is 4.1cm high, which is about the same size as the Apple Powerbook and it's around 3.3kg, which I think is lighter than the Powerbook?

I have complained about my Pismo 500 ever since I received it. Design wise I think it is far superior to any other notebook - until you touch it. Tacky, cheap, squeaky, horrible. Screen is mediocre, bluish and - yes I do use it to retouch photographs since I have parted from desktop machines ever since the first Powerbook.
But worst of all is the OS which is still not running smooth and reliable. I have clean-installed and updated it several times and still get the bomb and bus errors (a thing unheard of since 8.6). Worst of all, I cannot revert to OS 8.6, so I'm stuck with an inferior operating system which still appears to be beta. (I know that some users have no problems, but perhaps they don't use any USB devices or third-party extensions). Until they Apple resolve these issues, I cannot recommend any beginner to purchase a Mac. Only advanced users are capable of dealing with all the conflicts I encounter. I am a passionate Mac user since 1989. Thumbs down - and Windows is catching up fast!!!

All this is very interesting, and I wanted to report that I have the same problems in France.
1) Squeaking clamshell
2) keyboard marks on the screen
3) I even have squeaking screen !
4) On top, some kind of startup problem with PRAM, but I don't know if the problem is only due to the localized version of the OS or if any powerbook user can have it.

I'm quite disappointed since I am a very strong Apple fan. Even more since I expected to benefit from the new enclosure of PISMO.

I forgot all this, but now that I have it in front of me:
5) Squeaking DVD slot and battery
6) The texture around the big apple gets dirty and you can't adress the problem


[This message has been edited by mrfreeze (edited 05-23-2000).]

[Muahdib]

I think the quality of the Powerbook is excellent. I have only had mine for a couple of months, and since this is my first notebook, I can't speak from experience. I'll admit that the keys leaving marks on the screen is a bit annoying, but other than that it has been great. As to the comment that the hard drive and RAM are made by a different company and so it doesn't matter what notebook the components are in, I feel that this does not have any bearing on whether or not the parts still worked. The fact that the case of the Powerbook was able to absorb the shock of a 150 foot drop is testament to the design of the Powerbook. It doesn't matter what brand of hard drive you have. A hard drive is going to break if it is dropped by itself from such a height with out a case surrounding it, regardless of who manufactured it. The fact that the case is plastic allows for some impact absorbtion that many laptops don't have. I'll admit however that a sleek metal case is nice, and the keyboard can be a little bit "flexy" (is that a word?), but for all I get on the Powerbook the creaking is a minor annoyance only. As to the blue tint that people have been talking about, my Powerbook's color looks great. I don't have a blueish tint that I can observe. If this really is a problem then Apple certainly does need to correct it. As to the OS 9 and general operating, my Pismo has been great. The only real problem I have had is syncing my Palm which everyone seems to be having. It has been syncning well for the last few days so hopefully I have my problem solved. My Pismo is the best computer I've ever had the priviledge of owning. Hopefully my good experience will continue.

Brian


[This message has been edited by Muahdib (edited 05-23-2000).]

[Travis Grundke]

I've had my Pismo 400 for about three weeks now and although I do love it-the screen is gorgeous, I too note the minimal blueish tint to the screen.

I must agree wholeheartedly about the squeeks when closed. I was using a Thinkpad 700 series prior, and the Thinkpad had an entirely more "solid" feel to it than does my Powerbook. The Thinkpad used a very unique material on the palm-rests (same as the material Apple uses on the middle part of the exterior shell, methinks) which feels so much nicer.

The best way to compare is like this: if anyone has driven the new (1999 or 2000) model year Volkswagen Jetta, Golf and Passat you will note that the cars have a very high-quality, solid feel to them. Then hop into most GM cars and you'll note the excessive plastic, the flimsy feel of the controls and door panel materials, etc. This is the same feeling I get going from the Thinkpad to the Powerbook.

I wouldn't trade my PB for the world, but we need a far more "solid" feeling 'book, Apple!!

------------------

The thing about the bluish tint to the screen is a known issue. I don't have a Pismo, but I read somewhere on the net (macintouch?) that it is an issue with a certain batch of screens that do not operate at the standard kelvin temperature, which i believe is 5300. They operate a few hundred off, which makes it blue. Have to say--that would seem unacceptable to me. Contact Apple about it.

yeah. i have a firewire 500, i think we should stop calling it the pismo and call it the pismo stepchild, but anyways...i dont get the marks on my screen....but the plastics do feel cheap. everybody else gets the swank magnesium alloy enclosures.....we get black colored plastics. its not even black plastic, it is painted. it is really beige on the inside....(insert "no beige" sticker here) the screeen does need better resolution, especially if i'm gonna be running maya and os x on this bad brutha in a few months.....but i stuffed 640MB of ram into the beast. i dont think we can do that with a thinkpad yet.... my powerbook and a wacom and i'm kicking but and taking names. but ive had firewire problems...arrrgh... all these tradeoffs suck.

{quote] You may already be aware of this, but if you are not, you may find it newsworthy. If you scroll through the pages of Tech Exchange in Apple's PowerBook Support site, you'll find numerous persons complaining about the quality of the latest PowerBooks' screens. The complaints generally revolve around a conspicuously bluish tint that seems to afflict them. Apple's response has been that they are looking into the matter but thus far (it has been at least a couple months now since this issue arose) nothing concrete, or even the least bit helpful, has come from them. [end quote]

Interesting. Have you personally contacted Apple, and if so what was your experience -- or are you basing all this on heresy? Still, if Apple says they're looking into it, then trust that they are. Nothing much more you can do about this short of the occasional request for a status update. Additionally, at least one of the "complaints" was apparently written by a non-professional, judging by the adolescent writing skills displayed so prominently throughout the message. I tend to not put too much weight on these types of messages, and I'd be surprised if Apple didn't react similarly.

[quote] As an owner of a Pismo PowerBook, I performed a thorough examination of my screen and the machine as a whole. I did this mainly by comparing it with a Thinkpad 600. I have to say, to begin with, that the difference between the two machines is amazing. Not only is there a noticeably blue tint to my screen (which, however, can be alleviated slightly through ColorSync calibration), but to look at it in comparison with the ThinkPad's is like walking indoors after being out in the afternoon sun in the middle of summer. I was shocked by this. [end quote]

You've fixed it with ColorSync. Kudos to you! How long did you have the PowerBook before you actually did a side-by-side with your ThinkPad? Apparently it wasn't until after you read these comments. Sounds to me like you're looking a bit too hard for something to complain about.

[quote] And not only this, but the entire construction of the PowerBook instills no more confidence in Apple's quality control. I don't know if you've spent much time with this PowerBook model, but if you ever get a chance, close the clamshell and squeeze it a little. It squeaks, like a cheap toy. And a cheap toy is exactly what comes to mind when I examine it in comparison with the ThinkPad, every centimeter of which seems to have been constructed with the finest care. Even though the ThinkPad is lighter and thinner than the PowerBook, it has every appearance of being more rugged and durable. The cover doesn't give when you press down upon it, as the PowerBook's cover does; there's no squeaking; the keyboard doesn't leave any marks on the screen, even though, as I say, the ThinkPad's noticeably thinner (by the way, the ThinkPad 600 is a two-spindle machine, like the PowerBook, so this is a fair comparison); the cover latch springs shut immediately and clearly, whereas with the PowerBook, you have to double-check to see if the clambshell is shut firmly. And so on (there actually are many other features of the ThinkPad worth noting). [end quote]

I have spent considerable time with a few of the Pismo PBs. I think they're built pretty well. But then again, you have your opinion and I have mine. In my opinion, if you're thinking IBM cares more about the quality of your ThinkPad than Apple does about your PowerBook, think again.

I guess I don't understand why you'd want to be pressing down on your laptop, but I guess it's not my place to question how you treat your equipment. I also don't understand why you'd tell us that there are other ThinkPad features worth noting without actually noting them (I hope to GOD that ridiculous pointing device isn't one of them); sounds a bit like a promo for IBM portables. Again, I have my opinions and you have yours.

[quote] I'm writing this because the general consensus among the Mac publications (print and online) is that the PowerBook is second to none among notebooks. Specs-wise this may or may not be true, but in many other important respects (construction, overall quality), I think potential buyers should know that Apple leaves considerably much to be desired. It is also worth mentioning here that it is almost impossible to return an Apple product (only Outpost offers a money-back guarantee) and Apple is the only major computer company to offer only a one-year warranty for their professional-grade products. On top of this, if any one cares to investigate, Apple's customer relations track record is deplorable. To my knowledge, they are the only computer company that's ever downgraded a product line but still charged the same prices.

I think we all need to sober up about Apple. [end quote]

I think the publications appreciate the overall design and performance of the new PowerBooks. I don't think they've yet put them through your stringent press-down testing.

Your argument seems based solely upon personal bias. I happen to think that IBM ThinkPads leave a lot to be desired, but it's kind of up to the buyer to decide what they'd like to spend their money on. Never mind Apple products may be difficult to return. Have you ever tried to return a Dell or Gateway? I can say with confidence that Apple's warranty repair service is wonderful (personal experience). Your PowerBook is still under warranty; send it in and let Apple deal with it. Or if it pains you too much, put it out on eBay and let your IBM do the thinking for you.

Your point about the blue tint is noted; the rest seems gratuitous. You say nothing about the performance or ease-of-use of the PowerBook, in fact you mention nothing about anything you might like about it at all. Shouldn't potential buyers know about those points as well?

[I apologize if this post seems biting. It would be nice to see some more reasonable approaches to these issues than the typical knee-jerk reactions that seem to appear all too commonly.]

--
Joe Moog
Systems Administrator

I agree with Mr Moog about the "typical knee-jerk reactions that seem to appear all too commonly". It is very irritating
But still, I've seen worse, and I still support the the first post guy.
I said in my earlier post that I was not happy, and disappointed. But that doesn't change the fact that it's the best computer I've ever had (though I own a G4/500). You have to understand (and of course you do) that there is a difference between having spent "considerable time with a few of the Pismo PB" and owning one. At first i was amazed, and I still showcase it everytime I can. But when you use it every day and night, you get to experience what First Guy complained about. You realize that if you press the clamshell the WHOLE thing bends and squeaks. You notice that the size of the battery doesn't match the size of the hole designed for it and if you accidentaly press at this point (lets say you rest you rest your hand in the area), sometimes the plastic of the enclosure will go under the level of the plastics of the battery (if you get what I'm trying to say...).
So you see, I LOVE Apple, I'm perhaps the biggest French supporter ever, I defend Apple every day, but these things are really getting on my nerves after one month of intensive use.

[macbert]

I have been considering the purchase of a PB2K (pre-pismo??) and I find these personal accounts of products to be the best source of information for prospective users. I have been trying to decide between one of these and the Lombard PBG3, mostly due to the SCSI port. I have been concerned on the "blue" issue and find it refreshing that it can be fixed with Colorsync.

As far as the quality issues go, I am a certified Macintosh tech and have worked at an authorized Apple service center, performing warranty work for the masses. I understand the insanity of Apple only offering a 1 year service plan, and the problems with their call in tech support. I have worked on almost every Mac product from the PowerPC line to the second line of iMacs, and I have experienced first hand most of their "quality control" issues. I state this to show that while I love the Mac as a platform and have a "critical" understanding of Apple's warranty policy and repair procedures, i still worry about the "quality issues" and the soundness of their products. I have found no discernable pattern in the quality of Apple products and the PowerBook line has always emphasized this. I have seen a Wallstreet that survived unscathed from the dreaded "fall from the desk" and then seen the keyboard not latch properly on a similar unit, shipped with in a week of each other.

The point is that the "quality" of a product is a full process and involves every company that has a part in that laptop. If the screen is blue and the case "squeaks" then Apple is responsible but may not be directly to blame. just as a car manufacturer that sells a car with weak belts in it. Apple needs to take a "control issue" and not a "quality issue" the must demand better products from their producers and control their production methods better.

I do have a question, how many of these issues are inherited from the Lombard and how do they relate to or show the progress (or regress) of quality at Apple?

Mr. Moog,

Why on earth would I WANT something to complain about after having spent $2500? Whose comments is it precisely that are "knee-jerk"? I find it incomprehensible that anyone would take personal offense to observations one makes about certain inanimate objects; and in any case their only purpose was to reveal some things, based on personal experience, that the general Mac press seems to have passed over.

It wasn't only after I read the postings on Tech Exchange that I performed the examinations that I talk about; I went looking for the experiences of other users because I only recently acquired the ThinkPad, and I immediately noticed the differences that I talked about in my post. If I hadn't said anything about them before that is only because it is impossible, as everyone knows, to judge these things rightly unless one has a point of reference, unless one has something to compare with.

Pressing down on the PowerBook? Whatever my hand and arm can do is nothing compared with the pressures any laptop must endure if it is used as a portable system. Why, for God's sake, is this unreasonable? Do you carry your PowerBook around with a giant pair of velvet-covered padded tweezers? Knee-jerk? Who?

I challenge you to say how in God's name an argument can be free of personal bias? On the other hand, my comments wouldn't have been made at all if I hadn't seen and noticed a certain things; which is to say, the observations came before any desire to express them. Why would I wish it otherwise? I spent hard-earned money on the PowerBook; why wouldn't I want to believe that it had been spent wisely?

In other words, Mr. Moog, your points make absolutely no sense.

OK, I think the real thing is the quality of the LCD screens, not the plastic shell or keyboard marks... I have a 1999 Powerbook (Lombard), it sports Samsung LCD screen which shows yellowish tint and reduced brightness. It seems that the backlight tube has too warm light emission. It means that I CAN'T eliminate it with any Colorsync setting, the max white is always yellowish (and the brightness is questionable).

The blue tint problem seems to be similar, just to the opposite direction (even in Pismos the Samsung screens are good, and LGs has the blue tint). So this is a HARDWARE problem, you can't solve it with even 1 year Colorsync tweaking! Simply Apple has ******* quality control.

I'm gonna sell my Lombard to buy a Pismo (am I crazy?), but now I won't buy without checking the screen first! I've seen a Samsung screened Pismo, and it was correct, maybe side-by-side with an 1400x1050 pix Thinkpad I couldn't say that...

The sad thing is that Apple promotes PBs for creative professionals, and some office PC laptops show better screens... Pathetic.

[macupdate]

Regardless of what people are posting, Mike Suh had some good points. Apple should work to fix the blueish tint in the screen as well as the mechanical design of the 'book' so it doesn't leave keymark impressions on the screen.

-J www.macupdate.com

PB2K - I own one, have extensively worked with two others, and none show the signs people have complained about. Not that they, any more than any other computer, are without their problems.

I haven't seen the "noticable blue tint," though I don't and won't use any of the machines for color correction or design/presentation work. I hook up a 2nd monitor for that, and do the work on it. Two active monitors is one of the nicer features of the new PB.

One client's machine did have the dreaded "I'm crashing and I don't know why" syndrome. I reformatted & reinstalled the OS, programs, and carefully checked the extensions (he likes his internet and palm toys). Turned out to be a horribly corrupted Palm issue which was affecting the Finder after waking from sleep. Complicated, invisible problem solved. So long as I didn't install legacy extensions or active background apps (old versions of HotSync, &c.) he's had no further problems.

I do have a screen problem on my powerbook (an ugly green line), but it's the sort of thing that I know happens on LCD screens, and it is completely covered under warantee. No big deal.

The other machine has had no problems whatsoever after configuration. Admittedly, I am overprotective of the Macs in my care, and I am very, very thorough when I prepare a system and install the necessary programs. But hey, I'm a Mac service provider. That's what I do. Maybe my experience is different from the "average user." After 6 years of computer design and tech work, I do have a lot of peculiar habits designed to get the most, if not necessarily the most convenient, use out of my powerbooks (this is my third).

Well, I don't know anything about electronics quality control. Nor do I know anything about line assembly, detailed microelectronics, or any of the other details of industrial construction. I fix and maintain computer systems for graphic designers, music engineers, and small businesses. Apple's products have consistantly been more convenient, longer lasting, and easier to configure and use than any other system, especially if I need to integrate them into a network of any sort.

Whether it squeaks or not (which none of the PB2K's in my care do), whether the casing sits perfectly (again, not consistent with my experience), or it's hard to close (strike three), the PB2K is really an excellent machine - fast, powerful, impressive.

And if I need to color correct, I can hook it up to a second monitor and use both the LCD and the 2nd monitor to work on. Frankly, it wouldn't matter to me if my Word98 document looked slightly blue-tinted on screen.

Oh, and NO ONE makes an LCD which is recommeded for color correction for paper output. Not Apple, not compaq, not IBM, not SUN. No one. Even the 22" cinema display, arguably the best LCD flat-panel on the market, isn't recommended for print-matching. Use the 21" ColorSync monitor for that. You can hook it up to your PB2K.

Originally posted by Sean Li:
Having said that, in terms of price/performance, Apple is still ahead of the pack, but they're going to have a hard time convincing the general public that the PowerBooks are faster or as fast as the leading Windows notebooks, because consumers will look at one thing above all: processor speed. And when you see 400Mhz G3 vs 700Mhz Pentium III, few people will dig deeper particularly when there is no way to definitively benchmark performance across different processors (there will always be questions about how well optimized the code for each machine is, the efficiency of the operating system, etc...)

The simplest answer to this is to ask people to visibly compare the performance of the PIII laptop to a PIII desktop, then do the same with an iMac DV and a PB2K/400. Oh, and did we mention battery life?

Regarding the blue tint on screen, I feel that it is a hardware problem and thus covered by warranty - and also please note that Mr Suh was not able to *fix* the problem with ColorSync, only "slightly alleviate".

For those who feel Apple is losing ground to the Wintel world, take a good long look at the Airport technology. Apple build the antennae into the chassis to give excellent range; with a PC Card solution you have limited range and a blocky little attachment that will break off rather easily. It is *very* useful to be able to set up a wireless network in about 10 minutes, and then set your laptop down in the nearest available space. In three months of operation, I have yet to have a problem with an Airport network (which includes two iBooks and an iMac DV, plus the rest of our wired network).

[madbard]

I've been reading with interest the problems with the Powerbook Firewire (aka Powerbook 2000 aka Pismo) here http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Foru...ML/000430.html as well as those at Apple's own Tech Exchange http://discuss.info.apple.com/boards...Topic?Openview

It *seems* like long-time power users of Macs and Powerbooks are quite disappointed with aspects of the new Powerbook. However, new users seem to be happy (and I count myself among a new Powerbook user, although an Mac user since 1985). Which makes me wonder how the iBooks are fairing. Is Apple doing a better job of quality control and system integration with the iBooks because they are by-and-large going to newbie users? And has Apple dropped the ball big-time with the Powerbook Firewire or is it that expectations are relatively higher?

I guess this is more of a "psychology of consumers" question as opposed to actual technical concerns.


(topic edited to make url's clickable)

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 05-23-2000).]

I, too, am irked though not seriously inconvenienced by the key marks on the screen of our month-old PowerBook (FireWire) 500. I have no other complaints, however.

I backed up the drive on the Wallstreet this machine replaced using Retrospect, the VST FireWire card, and a VST pocket FireWire drive. I then plugged the cable and drive into the new machine, and restored everything except the System Folder. After restoring a couple of extensions and control panels (e.g. Restrospect Client) and a whole bunch of preference files and printer descriptions --- everything worked exactly as it had on the Wallstreet.... except faster, and I can run more apps at once with the 384 Mbyte of memory in the FireWire PB. Oh yeah, the battery lasts a heck of a lot longer, and the machine is lighter, too.

Can anyone say it's that simple to migrate from one Windows laptop to another? I've never found it so.

The Wallstreet went to a colleague who trashed hers (first the screen, then the power connector). Frankly, I think the FireWire PB is better built, based on the limited experience I have so far. And it has USB ports, FireWire ports, and an AirPort card. That's a lot of features without a single PC card. The ThinkPad T20's features are quite similar; it has no FireWire option, but it does have the Ultra Port. Looks like a toss-up to me. If you like Windows, that one pound difference in weight probably makes the T20 look great; if you don't like fighting your operating system, the FireWire ports on the PB probably look like killer features.

I am currently looking into the Powerbook 2000 models and find comments from current OWNERS of them very useful in determining personal satisfaction, experience, and after-sale quality/fi/finish/etc. I do NOT find comments such as Mr Moog's psychoanalysis of other posters' comments useful or even appropriate. Are we all so Apple-brainwashed to refuse to accept that Apple may be having quality control issues?

I current own a Wallstreet PB. Yes, it is significantly heavier and significantly slower than the newer models, but it also has a MUCH more solid and sturdy feel than the Lombard OR Pismo models. There's no screen/body flex, the DVD drive is smooth metal rather than cheap plastic, and the PC card slots auto eject cards at the touch of a button rather than manually via 2 seperate buttons.

I ALSO own an iBook SE and in response to the previous question on iBook Q/A, i believe they are ALSO lacking. Let's talk about dirt coming in between the clear plastics after <1 month of use, a CD drive that does not fit smooth into the unit, a mouse design that makes it almost impossible to avoid moving the cursor while typing, and an annoying tendency to wake up from sleep b/c of the excessive flex in the plastics/lid that causes the keys to be depressed - oh and then it never goes to sleep again, just wakes, sleeps, wakes, sleeps, etc, etc.

Apple has issues with Q/A - it is an issue with a LOT more than just the PowerBooks.

[wlonh]

ok, if you are talking iBooks now...

i have a blueberry rev.A iBook... no dirt, no poor fit as regards the CD tray, no glitches with sleep...

and a mouse does not come with the iBook, i believe the poster meant 'trackpad' and i have had no issues with that either, it is by far the best trackpad i've used

i have always been satisfied with Apple products and their quality though i do suspect that there have been some glaring issues...

oh, and my iBook was purchased back in November, i think

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 05-23-2000).]

[mr100percent]

Same here with my iBook.

Didn't Steve Jobs do a big overhaul with the Q/A team? I thought I heard how production undergoes multiple tests to find the best way to make the Powerbook with no flaws.

After replacing my november iBook with a new one in January, there are some minor differences, such as the battery shape. Something tells me that a couple developer cycles brought this on.

[Don Pickett]

For the record:

New Pismo 500. Sent back to Apple for defective I/O board. Four days, excellent tech support, all free of charge. Only other problems caused by extension conflict from MAcally mouse - removed the extensions and no more problems.

I love the machine - it's fast, stable, and, so far, strong. I haul it around in my messenger bag with no problems. I built a carrying case out of bubble rap, with velcro to hold it closed, to protect it, but for me that was common sense I would do that with ANY laptop.

I find people's comments on the blue-tinted screens somewhat confusing. They're probably two reasons for this: 1) If the blue-tint problem being reported is severe, then I am not suffering from it. There may be a slight blue tint to my screen, I have yet to see a LCD screen on any portable machine that was as good as a CRT. 2) From my experience, including running a drum scanner for a year, I never trust a monitor, even a well-calibrated monitor, without some sort of matchprint or other, high-end digital proof. I don't care how good your monitor is, you will never be able to see light shades yellow, cyan or magenta very well, merely because of the limitations of reproducing the CMYK color space on an RGB device. I was taught, and continue to practice, that a well-calibrated monitor (and by this I mean one calibrated with a Colortron, or other dedicated calibrating tool) can give you a good approximation of the relative color relationships, but will _never_ be good enough to sign off on. You _always_ get a matchprint if you want to be sure.

This may be due to expectations, both mine and others. When I replaced my desktop machine with my current Pismo, I didn't expect the display to match a CRT, which is why I kept my old monitor. When in Photoshop I use the Info palette, and then get a proof made for me. On the other hand, perhaps there's a LCD screen out there somewhere that will make me changemy mind. Haven't seen it yet.

As for Apple's QC problems, I posted on it a lot on the Powerbook forum, and I don't feel like repeating here. The Clif NOtes version is this - I think Apple, and the entire industry, is at a turning point. More and more success in the computer industry will come to be like success in other industries, where making consumers choose among similar poducts is about managing image. The upside to this is that no one manages image better than Apple. The downside is that Apple may lose track of what the Macfailthful buy the products for - technology and reliability.

Like I said on the Powerbook forum - let's hope Apple figures it out and stays righteous.

Don

I do have to admit, that after working customer service at CompUSA, I have never seen a powerbook returned. After nine months, I have seen Wintel hardware's hard drives crash, speakers not working because wires are not connected, ACTUAL motherboards cracked from computers that had NEVER been opened.

Yeah, these tiny things on Powerbooks may seem a little on the annoying side, but have you ever seen a Wintel laptop survive a submersion in water, accidental coffee spills, or (dread) a 5 foot drop from the kitchen table? I think not. What little things on the outside are definately made up on the inside. Apple's quality has never been second best. Stop complaining.

NOW WERE TALKING ABOUT IbOOKS? i like 'em. i like the trackpad on the iBooks better than on my firewire_500. its really cool. i like the sturdy feel of the iBook too. i actually would have gotten an iBook se if it had a 14 inch screen and firewire...and a larger hardrive and could hold a gig of ram. either wich way. the machines can be setup to do work. i dont have that marks in my screen for the keyboard problem, but i can imagine being pissed off that i have it after i paid a dump truck of cash to get anything. it always hurts to see your shiny new toy with blemishes.... pride of ownership. yay. it hurts me . i am an apple lovin guy, i started buying my machines around the clone era, actually my powerbook is my first apple branded mac, my others are all power computing....and i think that it is really cool. now i just need the software to really do it for me. i hope maya runs on my powerbook pushing os X allright. i know that its a lot to ask, but hell, why not?
wow. i just did the little press down thing on my book, anbd it does squeak. oh well, i can still f* around with a video file in commotion and make something look nice. yeah, i do dig the magnesium alloy bodies...but i said that in my last post. i guess apple wanted to sell me a powerbook now, then dangle that g4 and new plastics carrot in from of my face, knowing that i would be a sucker and sell some of my apple stock just so i could buy another one of thier machine. well, maybe i'll wait for one to fall off a truck, or be a cool guy and work really hard and buy myself another one.... (what can i say, i'm greedy) its the same reason i want 512MB sodimms in there and not the puny 256mb sticks...
aw, who am i kidding, i still do most of my real work on my pc running windows 2000....just because it is stable and runs all of the apps i need on the mac, plus maya. i am glad that apple is getting jiggy with it. maybe i wont have to buy another dual 750PIII system w/ m512 mb of ram and a 3dlabs gvx1 for $2500 bucks..... especially if apple makes a quad g4 and 3dlabs makes drivers for the gvx1 and apple drops thier prices even lower.....and i buty all of my ram form coast to coast.....heheh.

yeah. i'm eating it. i dont like that there are so many little quicks about the OS's and the hardware, but i live with it. gotta suppor tthe home team, y'know. go apple. viva la mac! if you dont like yourt 'book so much, you can give it to me and i'll use that biatch till it falls appart...then i'll fix it and make it a part of an aftereffects renderfarm.....then when its old and tired in the year 2015, i'll use it to burn cd's os something. maybe hook it up to the house and use it to control the lights..... i dunno. i would like better firewire drivers though. i constantly crash my pb when playing back a movie off a ads firewire drive....that sucks...and i was hoping to use my pb as my mobile recording studio in cunjunction with tascams new usb input mixer midi thing.....oh well, we'll see when it arrives. i'll tell you if it just sucks or rocks the [planet..

ok. i'm done for now.

Apple does NOT care
The only thing they care is PROFIT, everything should be as cheap as possible, cheap plastic cases, dimmed LCD display, stinky logic board, over heated CPU, TOSHIBA(OMG) hard disk...
It's funny that people still think Apple has anything to do with this quality thing. All iBook/PowerBooks are OEM product from Taiwan, from some notorious PC manufacturer, you think they care about Apple's quality? Remember 5300?
I had problems with my 1400 before, Apple didn't fix it in a whole year, the PMU/green light of death problem even killed my PCMCIA, the one year warranty is a big joke.
Yes I did contact AppleCare, I wrote to Steve himself about the quality problem, but I never heard from them, so I know Apple does NOT care.

[Sean Li]

Originally posted by Daniel:
The simplest answer to this is to ask people to visibly compare the performance of the PIII laptop to a PIII desktop, then do the same with an iMac DV and a PB2K/400. Oh, and did we mention battery life?

I wouldn't want to do that test with the certitude that the Macs will come out ahead. The top PIII desktops will come out ahead of the iMacs, and the PIII laptops will be at least equal. There's some applications that will run significantly faster, and there are applications that are simply not available on the Mac. There's very few that are available on Mac, but not on Windows.

And in terms of battery life, some of the new ThinkPads have been tested at more than 4 hours.

Don't get me wrong, I think the PowerBooks are still some of the best notebooks available, in spite of general quality look and feel issues. Whether they can survive a drop, or coffee spills, or whatever is irrelevant when someone is shopping and comparing a solid feeling ThinkPad to a creaky PowerBook, no matter how fast the machine is.

Part of quality control is that the machines should all be consistently good. I think we've seen here that there is quite a bit of variance in quality in PowerBooks.

Also, I have also seen that Windows laptops now have better screens than PowerBooks, brighter, and with better resolution.

If anyone has a direct line to Steve Jobs and the PowerBook team, perhaps they should forward this thread to them - it might affect the development of the PowerBook G4

quote from penandpaper:

And if I need to color correct, I can hook it up to a second monitor and use both the LCD and the 2nd monitor to work on. Frankly, it wouldn't matter to me if my Word98 document looked slightly blue-tinted on screen. Oh, and NO ONE makes an LCD which is recommeded for color correction for paper output. Not Apple, not compaq, not IBM, not SUN. No one. Even the 22" cinema display, arguably the best LCD flat-panel on the market, isn't recommended for print-matching. Use the 21" ColorSync monitor for that. You can hook it up to your PB2K.

------------------------------------------------
No one told that somebody wants to use Powerbooks for prepress color work. What we are talking about is that some defective PowerBook screens (yellow tint, blue tint) are below any quality standard for a 2500-3500USD branded computer, they are much worse than any office PC laptops with lower price, and much worse than the good ones from the same Powerbook series. So you have 3500USD to see your Word98 documents in blue? Nice to you. OK, no prepress, no DTP, but we can talk about digital video and web work, can't we?

---------------------------------
quote from Apple:

As a creative professional, you?ve noticed the increasing emphasis on desktop movies. That?s why the new PowerBook comes with the power you need to capture, edit and deliver digital video content for broadcast, the web or for professional-quality presentations. [..] And with an ultrasharp, 14.1-inch TFT active-matrix display, the ATI RAGE Mobility 128 video controller and 8 megabytes of video memory, the PowerBook lets you do it all and see it all with exceptional clarity?in millions of colors.

-------------------
No comment.

I must say, I never noticed how blue my Pismo's LCD was until I connected it to an external monitor for the first time. A good example is the "Quantum Foam" backdrop I use occasionally. On my Pismo the backdrop appears blue and on my Sony monitor its purple. Quite a difference. Playing with ColourSync does help, but it really cant fix the problem.

However, I dont use my PowerBook for any mission critical colour work and it doesnt even bother me. What DOES bother me is that nobody has even considered the price factor in all this. The IBM Thinkpad 600 series the original poster mentioned starts at a price of $2700. That's for a rather pathetic 400 mhz PIII with a 13.1" LCD and no DVD. A system comparable to my 400mhz Pismo will set you back a whopping $3200. That's for a 400mhz PIII (I would argue that a 400mhz G3 is way faster than a 400mhz PIII, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt), 10gb hd and 2x DVD. Not only does this machine have a smaller screen, but it lacks the video editing capability of the PowerBook. Battery life isnt mentioned on the website, but you can probably bet your life it wont last as long as energizer-bunny Pismo.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that in order to make the price of the PowerBook affordable, Apple has obviously had to made a few sacrifices. And if that means that the case creaks a little when I carry it around, because the cheaper plastics saved me $700, allowed me to make home movies, let me do it all on a larger screen, faster and on a superior OS, then I say thank you Apple.

Of course this argument doesnt work so well on the $3500 500mhz version, but I dont have one of those and I say if you've got that much cash to spend on a PowerBook then you shouldnt complain, because you're far richer than me

As another 2k Powerbook owner, I gotta say I haven't experienced a lot of the issues identified by other users. No blueish screen, don't find the clamshell "flexible" or "fragile." Yeah, the case seems like it's made outta cheap plastik, but other than that...

I've also gotta mention the fact that OS9 runs like a dream, although the constant updaters from Apple aren't exactly confidence inspiring.

I upgraded to the machine from a Toshiba Tecra 8000, which is supposed to be a very good PC laptop. Quite frankly, there ain't no comparision between what Apple are doing now and their PC counterparts. Although the PC did seem a little more rugged, it constantly crashed and froze. Very few freezes on my new PB, make me a happy bunny.

antoniostrijdom,

You can buy a ThinkPad A20m 700MHz, 14,1" TFT, 12GB HDD for 2800USD, but... Nobody wants to buy a PC, I just want to buy a Powerbook with standard quality screen and with correct repair policy, if the screen is defected. IMHO, bad screen is the worst sacrifice for a smaller(?) price, especially for an Apple machine "for creative industry".

[Paul Huang]

Some facts to consider regarding flat panel (TFT) screens.

1. It takes at least 15 minutes to reach full brightness, regardless of brand.

2. Apple's current supplier makes the WORST TFT panel in the industry. In the old days (3400, 1400, and 20th Anniversary models), Sharp and Toshiba provided the screens and they were far superior.

3. Color deviation can only be compared accurately under 5,000 Kelvin environment. Most users in the United States view their monitors under incandescent light (light bulb or candle light), which is around 3,400 Kelvin. Even if the screen is neutral, it will seem blue. Remember that color and value contrast can greatly skew your perception.

4. Toshiba has been a pioneer in TFT screen. Just place any notebook next to a Toshiba TFT screen and you will see the difference.

5. Apple's G3 PB screens all have a greenish/yellowish (ironically, most people observe the complement of yellow, which is blue) cast that is not correctable.

I have been holding on to my PB 1400C just because the PB G3's screen is unacceptably dark compared to the 1400C's. I understand that smaller screens are generally brighter (inverse square law of light intensity).

[seanyepez]

I too notice the PowerBook's inferior plastic quality.

When I had my Sony VAIO Z505S SuperSlim Pro notebook, it was the most sturdy-feeling notebook I had ever owned. When I traded it for my PowerBook, I was ever-regretful in the aesthetics category, because the PowerBook's case is a scratch-attractor. The Sony VAIO's magnesium alloy casing was much more resistant to scratches and dents relative to the PowerBooks.

I'm with you on the LCD area. The LCD on the Sony, albeit smaller (12.1-inch XGA TFT), was much higher quality. White was really, white. This is probably due to the XBRITE technology on the LCD, whatever that was. Also, I have dead pixels on my PowerBook screen, whereas on my old VAIO, I had none. A friend has a similar experience with his Sony VAIO XG-19. Though this is off-topic, I have a 15-inch flat panel display from ViewSonic (VG150), and it has not one dead pixel.

I will rush out to the store and buy Apple's new notebook (whatever it is, no matter the cost ) when they build the PowerBook within a magnesium alloy enclosure. Purple is good for a notebook's color, too.

[seanyepez]

Oh, yeah. I forgot...

I'll go and buy one when they build the PowerBook around a metal case and they establish a zero-tolerance policy for dead pixels. A Sony VAIO XBRITE caliber screen for perfect white is appealing too...

Complaining definitely has its place. We can�t elicit change without informing Apple about problems. The one thing that does really bug me is the screen marks from the keyboard. That warrants some kind of remedy from Apple. I would like my plastic screen shield replaced and at least then I could prevent it from happening again with a cloth. A more permanent fix would be appreciated.

I can�t say the rest of these claims have troubled me. I think there seems to be enough people upset about them that they need to be addressed before their next laptop. Apple still makes the best "widget" as we�ve heard Mr. Jobs say, because they make the whole "widget". I don�t want a better Windows laptop. I don�t care how much better it is. I work with windows machines because I have to. I work with my Mac because I want to.

In my opinion these are very small issues (except the screen scratches). I can change the tint of my screen (which has not disturbed me). I am next to my 500Pizmo right now and I�m trying to make it squeak and I can�t. As for lockups or bombs I have not had any. Besides Photoshop 5.5, Quark 4.1 , Acrobat, Sound Jam, a few games, VST firewire HD drivers, VST Zip drivers, Microsoft Office and IE 5, everything else is as it came. Maybe they need to get rid of a few of those third party extensions.

Don�t get me wrong. I cant argue with the number of responses I see that are not in favor of Pismo. I think Apple is the best, and part of being the best is addressing the problems of the majority or the minority (whichever the case may be)

I can only urge people with complaints to make sure Apple hears all of this. We are an important part of making these products better.

Maybe the Powerbook screens are generally worse than other manufacturers' screens, maybe not. This extreme yellow-blue color tint and dim brightness problem probably effects only the minority, but the LCD screen is the most expensive part of these machines (cca. 1000USD). I guess that Apple will never confess officially these defects, because to swap the screen just in 1000 Powerbooks would cost 1M USD...

ig

According to the IBM website that model doesn't include DVD, the cheapest model that includes DVD is $3800. Admittedly it has a 15" screen, but still.

Anyway the point of my post wasnt the LCD issue, it was about the cheap feeling plastic case and how, if Apple had splashed out on an all new aluminium and chrome case, not only would the materials be more expensive, but they'd also have to change the manufacturing process from the Lombard, which would have made the PowerBook needlessly expensive.

I love my Pismo 400. I have had some experience with the keys marking the screen, but a proper cleaning with an LCD cleaner takes care of it.

I did have a dead spot on my screen, about the size of 5 or 6 pixels. I didn't want to deal with Tech Support, so I brought it to my local authorized service dealer. They facilitated getting the PB to Apple and back to me. I had it back in my hands with a new screen in one week!

Complaints may be valid, and Apple is not perfect. But how many of you people experiencing problems have gotten the problems looked at?

[monickels]

Good screens on Windows machines? Where?

I just went shopping with a friend for a good Windows laptop and nine out of ten laptops had horrible screens: some of them weren't even active matrix. Many were head-on views only. The great-looking screens we saw were attached to machines that otherwise fell short:

Computers from Dell, Sony and IBM we saw, some without Ethernet ports (had to pay extra for a PC card with a ridiculous dongle), some without CD-ROM drives (extra). Some were Windows 98 only: updating to Windows 2000, we were told, wasn't possible until certain drivers were available. There were tiny trackpads, the annoying nipple/clit IBM navigating device in the way on the keyboard (bad for a touch typist).

The Windows computers may have been sturdy, but they were bulky, too, shaped like reams of paper or the Oxford English Dictionary.

And then the usual tricks: slow RPM hard drives (when you could find out how fast they were at all), no video-out ports, low VRAM, only 32 or 64MB of RAM installed (yes, I know Apple does this too, and I hate it), even tiny hard drives.

Blech. I'll take a light, slim Pismo, please.

Just want to add my experience to the pile that I have just read through. I'm suprised that it took this long for this issue to come to light. I spent almost $4000 on my "Pismo" and it was bad out of the box. I'm writing this message with a newly installed motherboard in my creaky machine. When I pulled my Pismo out of the box straight from Apple, it told me that it was January 1904. In the first weeks of use, the thing would decide sporadically to jump back in time. After much hassle, I was able to get a new motherboard from Apple. We'll see if my y2k ready machine will stay in the y2k now.
When you compare the construction of my $4000 Pismo to any of the iBooks, it is depressing. The iBook is far superior in solidity of feel. Why does a machine that costs twice as much feel (and flex) like a photo dummy instead of a real computer?

I will also agree that the screen is dim and bluish. Apple bills this machine as a video production studio that is portable. Hmm, I wonder how many serious DV projects are going to get finished on this thing. Nobody expects an LCD to be color critical, but please, can't it be in the ballpark for contrast and brightness?

I do agree that my Pismo is the first Powerbook that legitimately has the power of a desktop system. When you race a G4/450Mhz using Media Cleaner Pro to crunch video/audio, you'll be suprised to find that the Pismo 400 is only about 20% slower than the G4! It also has no problem playing DV files in Premiere with no dropped frames.

Apple--PLEASE give me a metal exterior and a better screen for this smokin' machine!!!

Just want to add my experience to the pile that I have just read through. I'm suprised that it took this long for this issue to come to light. I spent almost $4000 on my "Pismo" and it was bad out of the box. I'm writing this message with a newly installed motherboard in my creaky machine. When I pulled my Pismo out of the box straight from Apple, it told me that it was January 1904. In the first weeks of use, the thing would decide sporadically to jump back in time. After much hassle, I was able to get a new motherboard from Apple. We'll see if my y2k ready machine will stay in the y2k now.
When you compare the construction of my $4000 Pismo to any of the iBooks, it is depressing. The iBook is far superior in solidity of feel. Why does a machine that costs twice as much feel (and flex) like a photo dummy instead of a real computer?

I will also agree that the screen is dim and bluish. Apple bills this machine as a video production studio that is portable. Hmm, I wonder how many serious DV projects are going to get finished on this thing. Nobody expects an LCD to be color critical, but please, can't it be in the ballpark for contrast and brightness?

I do agree that my Pismo is the first Powerbook that legitimately has the power of a desktop system. When you race a G4/450Mhz using Media Cleaner Pro to crunch video/audio, you'll be suprised to find that the Pismo 400 is only about 20% slower than the G4! It also has no problem playing DV files in Premiere with no dropped frames.

Apple--PLEASE give me a metal exterior and a better screen for this smokin' machine!!!

[This message has been edited by mkbhatia (edited 05-24-2000).]

[Dispiacere]

Well folks, there is no such thing as a perfect machine. I have the VAIO and a Pismo 500, each with their own flaws and strongpoints. The weak points for the Pismo is the screen and the silly marks that show on the screen ...caused by the flexing of the screen cover. Also you will not see that happen much unless you keep it in spaces where pressure is applied on to the top. As for claims of 150 ft drops, single feats of luck should not be an endorsement for build quality. Let's face it, Apple is trying to make money selling a good product and it is doing well. Once the people out there begin to realize that the quality has dropped, sales will fall and Apple will be forced to act. But imho, Apple is about the OS first.
PC products have more competition and so are pushed to better quality in terms of screens etc. We are stuck with Apple products for Apple OS and so we have to put up with Apple's growing ineptitude to quality. So a dim bluish screen and perceived fragility is the price I pay for buying the OS..say isn't this a monopoly? think the DOJ will split apple or force licencing again?

[MacNZ]

Gidday all you Powerbook knockers,

My dad has had his Pismo for a month now. I would have to say, in my long experience with macs, this powerbook is the best by miles, and it should be for the price. I also believe it at least equals any PC laptops out there.

I know what people mean when they say the powerbook isn't totally solid, however, I believe some people are going too far. The Powerbook seems just as solid as a new batch of thinkpads my school bought recently. In fact, I found the Thinkpad I tested an ergonomic nightmare. When directing a school play I used my powerbook backstage (heaps of knocks but no damage) whilst the rest of the tech crew managed to completely wreck two thinkpads in various ways.

My physics teacher uses a Wallstreet/233 which he purchased when they first came out. Apart from being terribly stylish, he has thrashed the hell out of that powerbook with not a single problem at all. His utilisation of that machine has to be about 15 hours a day and still no problems.

The other experience I had with PC laptops recently was at the hospital where my father works. He uses his powerbook (pismo) there whilst I used to help out using a powerbook 190. We had no probs, even when networking the next door university's varied mac network. However, as soon as the hospital bought a whole lot of new compaq laptops to run on their NT network chaos broke out. My father got one and despite it's bad looks, the machine completely died within 48 hours. The hospital spent the next two weeks trying to sort out major problems including no fewer than 35 major compaq laptop probs.

My last experience with PC laptops was with a Toshiba Tecra from a top New Zealand defence officials office. It looked good, seemed to run smoothly until the hard drive totally crashed and had to be replaced.

So there's my experiences. I also believe there is not a laptop more stylish than the powerbook out there. I also like the TFT screen better than that of the Compaq and IBM machines although the Toshiba was admittedly a fine machine. For every unhappy powerbook user I'd bet there'd be at least twice as many extremely happy ones.

So don't knock the Pismo, and hopefully Apple will come out with an even finer machine for all you critics in New York.

[qnc]

Hi guys sorry for all you that are dissapointed with your Powerbook FW Y2k aka pismo. I am happy with mine. I totally crashed it the first day and then rather embarasingly when i was trying to show to off to a Viaro user. Howerver when I learned how to use it and set the correct date and time and not crash it with imaptience It blows away the competion. I have Virtual PC for thoes PC only software!! The Mac OS is just brilliant , its so easy to use, the scripting is a God send . The screen is lovely And the DVD is cool. The viaro crashed when Point break went in. In the end the windows have a long way to go: they have to drop thier price ( for a comparible computing power they have to pay �1000 more) their weight (14" viario's are more expensive i got my PB400 with 192 RAM for � 1,680 beat that) their rubbish OS so slow so complcated *.la la ) and all those rubbish games. Apple isn't perfect , they could do a few things better, but what they got is georgeous and they are improving much more than the windows. Thoes thievies started by copying Apple and still do with watered down systems that don't work together.

Yes its flexible (some might say squeaky) and yes there are marks on the screen. I am not convinced about this blue tint thing. But lets be honest The PBFW is the best laptop on the planet and the windows have a lot of stuff to do sure put a 750 PIII in one even add your DVD. give yourself little gismo to store the MP3 from the web. But you know you'll want what I got. what else will Apple bring out for you to copy?

Apple the orginal and still the best!!!!

From all the "sour grapes" in this forum, you'd think the new Pismo is a lemon - I suspect that several of you are PeeCee "lurkers," trying to steer helpless newbies away from the superior Mac format!

I recently got my Pismo 500 (384 RAM), trading up from my 2-year old Wallstreet 292 (which was a wonderful, powerful, flawless laptop, but I "need" the extra speed, USB, firewire, and graphics card for "gaming on the go!"), and I am simply awed by this machine! The fit and finish is flawless, the construction is solid (BTW, I've never heard anyone complaing about "squeaks"), everything fits together tightly, it's so much lighter and thinner than my Wallstreet that it's become a pleasure to carry, and the screen is PERFECT, with no "blue-tint," even brighter than my old 'Book!

Setup was simple, and I was on the internet within 5 minutes of opening the box, with absolutely no crashes or freezes of any sort! (Of course, I don't load up on cheesey sharewares by 3rd parties that cause most of the extension conflicts, crashes, etc. - if you must add all the garbage, don't complain about the problems!)

I've had 4 separate desktop Macs, since my first IIci in the late 80's, and I've seen massive increases in quality steadily, but especially since Mr. Jobs came back! (My G4 Sawtooth is incredible, and I wouldn't trade it for ANY of the PeeCee makers' wares!). This is my 3rd PowerBook, and I am simply awed by the quality, speed and finish of this unit! Other than waiting for IBM to make the SOI version of the G4 to go mobile, this unit is the PERFECT laptop, running the very best OS available!

Anyone having concerns about potential purchasing of a Pismo, should talk directly to someone who has, and uses, one currently - as I said, I suspect that some of this forum's posts are intentionally misleading. If you want to hear about PowerBook quality, go to Power Book Zone, and ask Doug Landry to give you some feedback on this, as he and many of his associates have used ALL the recent Mac laptop choices over the past few years.

Cheers!

iBorg,

For your information, I've owned more than 20 Macs, including at least one PowerBook from every generation except the 5300. Why would you be compelled to "suspect" anything? If you love your PowerBook, good for you. I, and others here, are merely making some observations that others might find useful.

It is absolutely incomprehensible to me that some people are driven to react personally to comments made about tools.

[tycheung]

Granted, I am making my comments after looking only at floor model of the PB G3 "Pismo/Firewire" but I think some of the complaints here have merit. I am considering replacing my old PowerComputer machine with a laptop in about 6 or 7 months, and I want my new Mac to be the laptop equivalent to a MagLite, not a ShopRite flashlight.

I was pretty impressed when I saw the new WallStreet form factor with the black plastic and the large (for the time) LCD's. When I looked at the PB G3, I wasn't so impressed. The keyboard looked a little cheap to me, and some of the keys didn't seem to fit or were stuck (which sparked off some bad memories about a horrible PB 180c keyboard which was too cheap and stiff to be usable). Next to this was the DV SE iBook, with immaculate white keys which made the PB G3 look like the econo-laptop. Not so good. The screen also didn't look very bright. My friend had a generic Wintel laptop build in Taiwan somewhere, but they must have thrown in a super high quality LCD because his computer's screen was at least a third brighter that this PB G3. Hopefully, this was due to the unit being a floor model, but it didn't exactly give me a cozy feeling. On the iMacs and Yosemites, the polycarbonate panels don't exactly fit together perfectly. From what I've seen and heard, Apple QA has been slacking as of late. It wasn't perfect pre-Jobs, but was definitely better than, say, Compaq, but I thought it had an upswing with the new administration. Now, it seems to have dipped. I hope those guys in Taiwan or Baja aren't using leftover Pokemon plastics...

I'm sure Apple could easily field a G3 or G4 laptop with similar specs to the current Pismo (G3 or G4, Firewire/USB, Rage 128/AGP, etc,) with a spiffy new aluminum/chrome case and top notch screen for less that $4,000. Don't VAIO's run about $3000-3500 nowadays?

Somebody said that Apple's TFT supplier sucked - is this Samsung? Apple either owns a small stake in Samsung or has a big deal with them, so they are probably stuck with Samsung for the immediate future. But, their 15 inch LCD display has been pretty impressive in quality, and from what I've heard, so has the 22" cinema display. One could think they could bring their laptops, which have a way larger customer base, up to the same specs.

Anyway, as a last word don't look down on ThinkPads or VAIO's- they are among the best laptops in the industry IN TERMS OF CHASSIS DESIGN. The most exciting events in the past year or two in laptops, to me, were the super thin full size ThinkPads, the Butterfly Keyboard, the aluminum/super thin VAIO's, and the small Windows CE laptop with the flippable screen (forgot the name - I think Sharp was selling it). I think Apple should take a note of what works with these machines and make sure that their next PB design reflects these ideas. They should also TAKE CAREFUL NOTE of the burgeoning handheld/Palm/Windows CE and the wireless/digital cell phone markets, as these are going to be the flashy tech industries along with the laptops in the next few years. The PC industry is relatively uninteresting in comparison, and Apple's schtick has always been flashy and newfangled. I hope that the new management hasn't retained any of the "Not Invented Here" mindset of the earlier Scully and Spindler administrations.


Anyway, looking forward to the PB 2001 (maybe the real Pismo casing will show up this time...I have a feeling that with the PB Firewire, when they decided to use the old casing instead of the new one, they didn't really think too much about the design)