[MacNN Staff]

Name: Chris Franson
Timestamp: Wednesday, January 17, 2001, 10:30pm

My 1998 Powerbook G3 ("Wallstreet 2") 300MHz/14.1" display recently developed the apparently common hinge failure problem.
I was unpleasantly surprised to discover that, for a period of about 2 months, Apple *had* covered some of these failures on otherwise out of warranty Powerbooks, but they are no longer doing so. The repair is, at a minimum, $310. At Apple reseller support (I work for a VAR), I was escalated to a second tier support person who told me "[she] was the bottom line. Apple [would] not cover this." She also mentioned that Apple had brought in several Powerbooks with this problem and that they had determined that it was as a result of either abuse/misuse or wear and tear. She was unable to explain how Apple determined that opening and closing the display constituted abuse or misuse and said that it "was a bad choice of words."
I then followed up with Apple Customer Relations who also stated that it was a normal wear and tear failure and that they do not believe that it is a widespread problem. When I mentioned that the hinge problem has been widely documented on the web, and is beginning to include the "Lombard" Powerbooks, which use the same hinge mechanism, Customer Relations maintained their position that it is not widespread.
I then decided to tear down the computer to document the failure in case I decide to actually get it repaired. If I do pay the $310 repair fee, I will likely file in small claims court to recover it from Apple.
What I found was surprising. The portion of the hinge that fails is paper-thin aluminum, and it tears off under the weight of the display. The hinge itself is manufactured by a company called Reell (www.reell.com), a Minnesota based manufacturer of precision hinges and clutches. Reell sells several different models of hinges and clutches which are rated for lifetimes ranging from 10,000 cycles up to 30,000. For a computer such as mine, which is almost exactly 2 years old, that translates into 13.6 to 41.1 open/close cycles per day, every day! Even the heaviest user of a laptop could not possibly open and close the computer that many times in two years. I had then considered attempting to order replacement hinges directly from Reell, but the Reell part number has been "X"ed out of both hinges so that it is illegible. My concern is that even if these parts are replaced by Apple, they will continue to fail unless they are redesigned.
As an Apple reseller and a long time Powerbook user (this is my fifth Powerbook), Apple's denial of this problem will have a negative effect on both the buying plans of my own and that of my customers. I do not look forward to using a Wintel laptop, but Apple's continual "bury its head in the sand" customer service policies leave me no option. It's impossible to overlook just how good other PC manufacturers are when it comes to customer support. Apple needs to make this problem right for the hundreds of Powerbook G3 users with failed hinges or risk losing them all to the competition in the profitable laptop market.

[outZider]

I love the way that everyone screams, "I'm running to Wintel!" whenever something goes wrong that Apple won't fix. Let's look at it from their perspective. There are many Wallstreet-design PowerBooks out there. Only a small percentage at this point have hinge problems. Just because you saw it on the web doesn't mean everyone is having the same problem. We have 12 Wallstreets here, and none of them are having hinge issues. If I use your line of logic (I saw it, so it's happening to everyone), then Wallstreets actually have a 0% failure rate, according to my results.

It's not accurate, but I'm doing the math the same way you are.

Apple is doing what a normal business would. What should customers do? Get many people together to demand free repairs, or get that part number from Reell. How? Bug Apple. A lot. Or, contact Reell, explain your position. They just might know what you need.

Another thing you're going to have to consider is that all other companies act the same way with support. Dodge won't fix the cargo cover on my '94 Stealth for free, even though they've acknowledged the problem. Sony won't fix my '98 VCR, even though they know magnetic heads tend to be unreliable. *Stuff Happens -- Life Goes On*. It won't get any better when you move to a Wintel laptop, and you're going to have to deal with Windows on top of all of that. If Apple's support sickens you, Microsoft's will put a bullet through your head.

Have a good one.

- oZ

[Sturat]

Amazing but about a month ago, my hidge fail on my 300/14.1 that I bought a little over 2 years ago as well. I don't know how they can claim that it is a misuse or abuse item. Clearly they have a faulty clutch mech. and need to have it covered in some way. I am a heavy user in outside sales and cannot believe that it s failure constitutes a misuse item as this is what they advertise the product to do. I remember something about the "Ultimate Road Warrior's" machine...At $300+ you have to wonder is it worth fixing or moving on... They should concider a discount on a new purchase or a discount on the repair. I have afeeling it is VERY wide spread.

[henryo]

Hello, I have the same system, I have had it since it was introduced, haven't had any problems, though I have noticed that at the bottom part of the screen, the lights look uneven, this does not affect me much when my desktop appears. Its only noticeable when the machine is booting up.

I am very disappointed like you in regards Apple's Customer Service. I have really made some enemies in their Senior Customer Service Department for different issues.

I wonder if Apple will have a recall like they have done with other products, i.e. the Anniversary Mac...(Spartacus).?

I like to get in touch with you about this powerbook issue and gather enough individuals with the same situation and do something about it.

Apple really needs us, and they need to keep us happy with their products or else they will loose our loyalty and trust.

They're hanging on a razor thin line with me.

Thanks.


[email protected]

i, too, have a powerbook g3 (wallstreet 1998) 300MHz/14.1 screen. while i wouldn't say that the hinge has "failed", i have noticed that is has become relatively flopsy while in the upright position. i use it maybe once or twice a day, maybe 4 days a week. there are plenty of older powerbooks out there that don't have this problem. i don't see how they can consider it normal wear and tear.

[henryo]

Hello.

Don't want to create a situation. I like to remain as neutral as possible. And I do understand where you're coming from. "Is life" I totally agree with on that, however to justify $3,500+ on a system that is going to fail and have Apple not do something about it, is not really a good move. Sure Apple doesn't have to do a thing about this, but would you buy another VCR from Sonny...? or another Stealth...? Is simple, we as consumers like to be treated like consumers of a company's great products. And we expect quality. "Is Life" we consumers demand quality and support. That's all. If ford sends me a card saying my clutch is defective and that I should bring it to have it replaced at no cost, then that is costumer service. Recall, it happens and is a good thing for the company. Like I said, "Apple is on a razor thin line with their costumer service. I trust and hope you understand and no need for animosity. Just a honest and peaceful reply.

Originally posted by outZider:
[B]I love the way that everyone screams, "I'm running to Wintel!" whenever something goes wrong that Apple won't fix. Let's look at it from their perspective. There are many Wallstreet-design PowerBooks out there. Only a small percentage at this point have hinge problems. Just because you saw it on the web doesn't mean everyone is having the same problem. We have 12 Wallstreets here, and none of them are having hinge issues. If I use your line of logic (I saw it, so it's happening to everyone), then Wallstreets actually have a 0% failure rate, according to my results./B]

I'm not the only one having the problem. It's not imagined, and it truly is rather widespread. Here are some references for you: http://discussions.info.apple.com/We...^[email protected]/18
(paste the above URL if it doesn't all go in one line.)
and take a look at: http://www.macfixit.com/archives/oct...#repairs-10-11
and http://www.go2mac.com/displaynews.cfm?newsid=7420
Be sure to read some of the 100+ comments attached to this article. Are you still sure the problem is made up?
As far as switching to Wintel goes, it's just a matter of not rewarding bad customer service. I can deal with the Windows issues if I must; I'd rather not, however, there aren't any other options for computer vendors.
The bigger problem is that Apple continued to use the same hinge assembly in the "Lombard" and "Pismo" Powerbooks. These too are likely to be prone to failure, probably just out of warranty like my Wallstreet.
Chris

[outZider]

*Be sure to read some of the 100+ comments attached to this article. Are you still sure the problem is made up?*

I never once stated that the problem is made up. I am, however, stating that hinge problems exist with every laptop, and switching to Dell or Gateway or Sony is NOT going to fix your problem. I use Apple products because they are some of the most reliable systems we use here. Sure, I pay a premium, but I get quality products and a superior operating system.


I stated that there needs to be a solution to the problem. One or two people fleeing to Wintel is not going to sway Apple. It takes something more.

- oZ

[clifhirtle]

98 Wallstreet Powerbook/233 here. Same problem.

I'm often hesitant to point fingers, but in this case i think the issue goes a lot deeper than one would imagine...

I just called Reel. After being transferred to 3 different associates, i proceeded to ask what i would need to provide Reel with in order to order a replacement part for an Apple Powerbook.

The response:

"I'm sorry sir, we have not recieved authorization from Apple that allows us to sell you that part. You will need to contact an authorized Apple Service Center to order your replacement part. We cannot sell them to you."

That's the biggest load of BS i've ever heard. What exactly is "Apple authorization?" If i was a regular old non-Apple owning customer, would i be able to order the part then? How exactly does a company like Reel make any money if indeed they ARE following Apple's guidelines and not selling such parts to anyone other than Apple?

In any case, i am going to try and call tomorrow and see if i can order the same part as a NON-Apple Powerbook user.

Let's have a round of guestimates: how much do you really think a pair of tiny replacement hinges costs?... $5, $10, maybe $20? I'm calling Apple later and asking. I'll post back here w/a direct quote.

- C

http://www2.linkedresources.com/teac...ook/hinge.html
also documents the problem.

Last week I sent my G3 powerbook in to have the hinges repaired for $310. It failed after 13 months. They also fixed the power input port. As an extra dividend?, they replaced the hard drive with a 12 gigabyte version and formatted it in HFS instead of HFS plus. Fortunately, prior to sending it in, I burned backup CDs so I lost no data. I also ran Plus Maker to fix the formatting.

It is obvious that they have a design flaw; but, we can hope that the new powerbook does not have the problem.
Sam Vass ([email protected])

I also have the 98/300/14.1

The screen is still in an upright position, however it has about 1" play in it. The thing about it is I don't close the screen for days on end. My book will be 2 years old in Feb 2001. I would certainly join with any movement to demand Apple to fix such a defect. Why can't they make a hinge out of steel or maybe that fancy titanium?!?!?!?

the same problem exists on PC's - i have first hand experience with 2 brands that did the exact same hinge breaking thing. the manufacturer would not replace the hinges either. so switching to a pc may not solve your problem - perhaps you should buy a pc based on who makes the hinges.

[harvardtgr]

As a stats student I'm going to mention something here, you're all complaining that the problem of broken hinges is widespread. Well, here's my theory, if you ask someone to complain they will. They'll create forums complaining that their hinge is broken. A satisfied customer has no need to come to the forum and say my hinge is in perfectly good condition. They won't create a forum to compliment Apple on their hinges. It's too much trouble.

[This message has been edited by harvardtgr (edited 01-18-2001).]

[fmalloy]

I totally disagree with outZider. Apple is a company that depends highly on customer satisfaction. Seeing what little market share they have and their latest posted loss, they can hardly be arrogant at this point in time. Fixing that hinge is probably 15-20 mins. of work, and we should not have to pay $310, period.

I am so nervous about what kind of problems this wonderful new titanium PB is going to have and how its not going to be covered. I dunno - the hinge looks even flimsier...that display cable has got to be mighty thin...does that paint-over-titanium hold up?...keys look like they touch the screen...hope that G4 heat doesn't discolor the case...is Apple going to raise the bad-pixels-per-screen since its bigger?

I'll tell you a story - I'm a "friend of a friend" of a guy who remodeled Steve Jobs' kitchen, at a cost that would rival purchasing a modest home. In order not to disrupt his family, Steve demanded that all electrical work be done WITH THE POWER ON. He also bothered this friend on New Year's Day demanding that his favorite toilet (which the friend wasn't even responsible for) get fixed, even though Steve has numerous other iToilets in the house.

If I were the contractor, I'd love to say "Sorry Steve, that's a known problem and not covered by your warranty. Your shi* is normal wear-and-tear. Would you like to purchase ToiletCare?"

Wasn't it Steve who said "Good companies make mistakes. Great companies fix them"? Perhaps we should use Steve's colorful language in that recent talk with the retail stores...

As far as "one or two people fleeing to Wintel...", that's the problem - its not one or two. What's Apple's market share again?

Have any Lombard owners reported this problem? I have a 14 Month Old Lombard that is opened and closed about 4 times a day and seems fine now but am I heading towards this failure also?

[HellaOldJC]

In reality the alternative might have been to purchase an extended "Buyer Protection Plan" from Apple. Three years for $350 was what I was quoted for my Pismo PowerBook.

Now if you had that plan you would not have had to pay for such a repair.

But, assuming that the hinge problem is the only thing that would go wrong with your PowerBook, you would have still been out some 10 to 40 dollars for the Buyer Protection Plan, when compared to the actual cost of repairs.

Another point- Other computer companies have similar practices. Going to Wintel won't help your problem.

------------------
JC
------------------------------
Seek your fate, or your
fate will seek you

I am the proud owner of a Wallstreet PB (233mhz w/13" screen) and I am frustrated......

My Wallstreet's hinges totally failed in November, making the PB useless as a portable machine for the past 2 months. It had already had repairs done to fix the problem with the battery not charging. I am frustrated beyond words, as I am a teacher who travels between buildings and my PB is my mobile office which requires more support than my grandma's orthopedic hosiery! I have had 5 different conversations with Apple since mid November, each time without any success. And yet it's astonishing that my 8 year old PB160 and my 4 year old PB1400's hinges still work flawlessly after far more use than the 2 year old Wallstreet has gotten. I teach in a district where 99% of our computers are Macs and I am the resource teacher in my school district that takes care of keeping everybody's Macs running. C'mon Apple..... how about some help here.....

And to top it off, my wife's Wallstreet PB suffers from battery charging problem...... How could such a terrific machine be so plagued??

[jwbaumann]

A few points...

I posted pictures of my broken hinge
<a href="http://www2.linkedresources.com/teach/powerbook/hinge.html">http://www2.linkedresources.com/teach/powerbook/hinge.html</a>

The hinges for the 13.3 inch screen are different from the 14.1 inch screen. I don't know how the latter fail.

IMHO, if you have *ANY* free play, your hinge has already broken (and your video cable is at risk). The clutch itself is fine, but the hinge actually breaks - see the pictures.

I have spoken with Apple and have been faced with a complete brick wall. Class action lawsuit appears to be the only way to resolve this. If no one is taking names, I will. <[email protected]> I'll try to post a page to formally register your gripe soon.

[Sarge]

Originally posted by fmalloy:
I totally disagree with outZider. Apple is a company that depends highly on customer satisfaction. Seeing what little market share they have and their latest posted loss, they can hardly be arrogant at this point in time. Fixing that hinge is probably 15-20 mins. of work, and we should not have to pay $310, period.

I am so nervous about what kind of problems this wonderful new titanium PB is going to have and how its not going to be covered. I dunno - the hinge looks even flimsier...that display cable has got to be mighty thin...does that paint-over-titanium hold up?...keys look like they touch the screen...hope that G4 heat doesn't discolor the case...is Apple going to raise the bad-pixels-per-screen since its bigger?

I'll tell you a story - I'm a "friend of a friend" of a guy who remodeled Steve Jobs' kitchen, at a cost that would rival purchasing a modest home. In order not to disrupt his family, Steve demanded that all electrical work be done WITH THE POWER ON. He also bothered this friend on New Year's Day demanding that his favorite toilet (which the friend wasn't even responsible for) get fixed, even though Steve has numerous other iToilets in the house.

This is no big deal to a competent electrician and is not really even unsafe. We used to work on 480 3 phase power live when I was in the mines in Colorado.

Also maybe Steve asked your friend to do the plumbing thing because he was impressed with his other work. Good people are hard to find. Sounds like a business opportunity to me. If it was me I would want to keep my rich clients "very" happy. Word of mouth and all that you know.

As far as hinges go, well my Wallstreet 300 is getting a little loose and beyond a certain angle the screen will drop flat. As long as I keep it in a upright position I have about 30 degrees of play before it drops flat otherwise it works fine for me. $310 bucks sounds a little over the top to me unless you get some extras like the other fellow reported like a new hard drive and fixes to anything else thats wrong which in all likely hood will happen without you asking.

Also anyone contemplating running off to a Wintel laptop over this issue better stop and think about it. The reliability and operability issues with most of these puppies is beyond belief. You sometimes have to wonder how they can even sell this stuff legally. And it's not just a Windows issue. Anyone who uses MacOS can learn to get by with Windows - if they have to. It's just that Wintel laptops are in a word basically crap. And if you think Mac Powerbooks are expensive, try pricing out a high end IBM thinkpad - $8K. Believe me, there ain't 8000 dollars worth of quality in that thing.

just my 2 cents

I would like to add a few comments after reading through this thread. First, my understanding is an AppleCare Extended Warranty does NOT cover the hinge repair since Apple considers this a "wear-and-tear" issue. Second, having slop in the hinges does not, in my opinion, mean anything is broken. My Wallstreet had 3/4" play from day one and has not changed in two years. I also have read many reports on the Apple discussion boards expressing the same observation.

Some Suggestions for Power book users:

Though I only have a Desktop system, I have heard about this problem before and have read most of the posts on the subject on this site and others.

With that in mind, I suggest the following:

1) Become an Entrepreneur: Contact the company that was mentioned in an earlier post and try to buy a WHOLE CASE of the hinge pieces. Then, take a Saturday afternoon, fix your laptop with one set, document how you did it complete with illustrations, and sell HINGE SETS PLUS INSTRUCTIONS FOR A DO IT YOURSELF FIX over the Internet. You could probabaly charge $10 to $15 bucks per set as an UNAUTHORIZED solution provider!

2) Check out www.xlr8yourmac.com and do a search on this topic: I remember finding a link here from a guy who has championed the replacement cause for quite some time. He has his own site and has recently got his Powerbook repaired (I beleive). He has also been providing Powerbook users with his customer complaint number so that the Apple rep can reference it and see that these can and have been fixed for free. Other Apple powerbook users have used this method and have posted their numbers as well.

3) Flood Apple with e-mails and phone calls demanding (in a nice and professional way)to speak with a supervisor regarding this issue. Be firm and extremely persistent. I had a $350 gripe with Apple over another issue that eventually (after quite some time) got resolved using this method. Be polite, but persistant.

4) Demand that Apple makes the hinge available for those wanting to purchase it separatley. Demand they take it off the "restriceted to consumer list" at the plant where the hinge is made.


I hope these suggestions help you in your quests...


-Jim Harper <><

[dbergstrom]

I have a 14.1" Wallstreet and have had a good amount of play since day 1, too (about 5-10 degrees). However, now I treat the hinge like glass, never sure what's going to break it.

As for fleeing to Wintel - go too Apple.com and look at the picture comparing the thickness of the TiBook to the VAIO. The VAIO's parts fit together so poorly, it looks like it was made from old parts that Apple discards after fixing somebody's PowerBook.

The fact of the matter is that any laptop (except the iBook) is engineered to within an inch of its life. When the goal is thin and light, compromises ae made. In almost anything, rugged = bulky (iBook, weatherproof digital cameras, Sony "Sports" walkmans and radios).

Originally posted by brahmservo:
i, too, have a powerbook g3 (wallstreet 1998) 300MHz/14.1 screen. while i wouldn't say that the hinge has "failed", i have noticed that is has become relatively flopsy while in the upright position. i use it maybe once or twice a day, maybe 4 days a week. there are plenty of older powerbooks out there that don't have this problem. i don't see how they can consider it normal wear and tear.

Very likely one side has failed. This is how the problem usually happens. One hinge goes, puts extra weight on the other hinge and it goes soon after. This is apparently a very common problem.

I have a 1998 Wallstreet 233 MHz PowerBook. I have used it every day of the week since I bought it new in 1998. I'd say I open and close it at LEAST 4 times a day. I do quite a bit of outside sales and use my powerbook extensively.

The hinges on my powerbook work just fine. That's right, not a hint of a problem - ever. Am I to understand that I have the ONLY PowerBook that does not have a hinge problem? Or mayby I'm one of the few PowerBook owners who closes the machine before lifting it (as apposed to lifting it by the screen, perhaps?)

I've had my powerbook for over 2 years. I'd have bought a new one last year, but I was waiting for the PowerBook G4s to come out. You have to admit that two years is a long time in computer years. If you're really using your computer for business, you have to plan on buying a new one at least every two years. (That old powerbook just doesn't get any faster with age!)

So, quit yer belly-aching, ye swabs! Shell out the $300 bucks and get that old clunker fixed, or shell out $2500 bucks for a new machine!

one two year old bronze perfect condition.

one one year old pismo perfect condition

both machines are used everyday and transported 4 - 5 times a week. we also put them to sleep by closing the lid. if there are 100 posts out there that deal with this half of those are probably the same person complaining more than once. of the few hundred thousand of these machines out there i would expect some faliures. if apple were to warranty every product for life they would not have made it.

Not to really rub it in either, but how many of these people who have 2 year old PowerBook have AppleCare? My computer is covered for 3 years if the hinges go out, it costs me nothing but a week's time. Apple's warranty is for 1 year. It was 1 year when you bought it, what's the surprise that something is failing outside that time and Apple not wanting to cover it for free. You all chose to NOT get the extended warranty because you bet that you wouldn't need it, now you do and you are complaining. You cannot have it both ways. Why should you get the repair for free when you didn't pay for AppleCare and I did. If you get a free repair, then Apple should refund my AppleCare.

Unless something has changed, a local service provider MIGHT be able to fix it for less than the $300 if they can work on PowerBooks. The price you quote sounds like a fixed depot repair price.

For the record, mine currently has about 1" of freeplay, but is sturdy outside of that. I have about 11 months to get it fixed...

Stealthy have no broblem on Wall Street PowerBook. . . have no problem on other Wall Street PowerBook . .. Stealthy must ask question to self . . . do these users know how to open PowerBook??? Me seen how people grab front of PowerBook and jerk the lid open putting stress on neck of powerBook .. . bad bad bad. Dont blame Apple for stupid user use of PowerBook. . .

stupid users,
-StealthyKiller

(a) It's in Apple's best interests to keep customers enthusiastic. Positive treatment creates and reinforces loyalty, and loyalty is the (so far) unshakeable spine that has kept Apple from collapsing under the weight of its own slips, of Microsoft's dominance, and of a hostile marketplace. Superior customer service is Apple's best policy--but they seem more intent on milking users than buttering them up.

(b) At a certain point, consumers have to expect that complicated designs yield to age, wear and tear, and the stresses that afflict an intricate design with particular relentlessness. Would one rather have one's old PB back for $350, or spend $1,500 or more for a new one (that will inevitably decay, too)?

(c) My Lombard is 18 months old. The screen shows very little (if any) play. I am chewing my fingernails, because I stretched my budget to get this one. Much as I'd like a TiBook, I won't be able to upgrade, only repair.

I had the failure happen on my Wallstreet 1 (a 250/14.1) after about 10 months... It went back and forth to apple 3 times before I got it fixed. Now my lombard screen is what I would call "a bit loose"... I have spoken to apple about it and they are less than willing to look at it, let alone repair it.

Apple is less than stellar with customer support and service. It has been that was for years... It's too bad. They make great products, they are not willing however to step up and address issues with those products. The list is long and this hinge issue is only the latest. Cube plastics, cube switches, G4 switches, whatever...

My company is switching all of us to wintel machines with no room for argument either.... I must say while I like the Mac (heck I was an apple employee for a big chunk of my career) the customer service is enough to make one batty. Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to wintel I go... not really by choice, but I am not screaming either...

I have a G3 Wallstreet, 2 years old. Mechanically it is strictly garbage.
has not seen the battery in the battery slot ( left ) for over a year. Hinges are starting to exhibit same looseness as others describe. On a couple of occasions I have needed to lay the display back a little over the normal viewing position. It was after this that the hinges started to be a problem. I must say, this has been my only machine for the time I have had it. But with the care it has had, a reasonably well designed piece of equipment would yet be in very good operating condition !

sam

My PB 266 hinge failed after about 10 months. Last month, the screen finally broke the power connector circuit board. Battery charging has failed. 3 power supplies have failed. If this were an automotive product it would be recalled and vilified. Just because a few morons out there haven't had problems isn't a reason to belittle those that have had problems - they are about as bright as a smoker that claims "I don't have cancer - so what's the problem!"

A year ago I tried to find out if the battery problem were common - didn't get any response. I see now that that problem is also widespread. When problems occur with great frequency, these are design flaws and Apple needs to recognize them. A $3500 product should not fail after 2 years service. If Apple believes that there products are only good for a 2 year life, they should market them that way.

My hinge is shattered, obviously a design flaw. The battery problem is obviously a design flaw. The reason Apple WON'T fix the problems are exactly because they are widespread. Bad Business!

When my first PB266 failed after less than 30 days, Apple quickly sent me another one, as I am sure they didn't want bad publicity about processor failure so soon after a products unveiling. That is the proper way to deal with problems.

Unfortunately, Apple does not want us to fix these old machines - they want us to buy new Titaniums. DO they not realize that resale value is a vital element to a products initial value. At least allow us to trade in broken machines for new ones. Would anyone purchase a Titanium if you knew it would be scrap metal in 2 years? (at least titanium gets more than 40 cents pound).

I want my machine fixed so I can sell it and get a Titanium, a machine I have been long waiting for. But I want a machine that will last and a company that will stand behind there product, especially when they screw up!

I have three WallStreet PBs that all exhibit the same problem. Hinges busted out on all three. Two of my clients have PBs with these problems, and my *FATHER* has this problem with his WallStreet, although he's in Central America right now, so to fix it, since there's no Apple presence down there, I have to *fly way the hell down there* and swap out PBs with him.

My Apple dealer didn't know jack about this, which concerns me a wee bit. Anyway, I've already sold all of my useless WallStreet systems and am anxiously awaiting the Titanium PB. No chance in hell I'll be buying a PC, as this is the type of behaviour is commonplace in that market.

Sometimes it sucks to like something so much you're willing to look past obvious problems with it just to have the opportunity to use it.

-Chilton

I have about 1" play in my G3/266. Unfortunately, my serial number has rubbed off so I would have difficulty joining any formal action. I called Apple about this and they told me that the serial number rubbing off is also a common problem (having to do with heat).

I love apple products, but I don't feel I "owe them" anything. If there was a formal action to have this repaired, then I would join it. If there isn't, then when and if my hinges break the rest of the way, I will shell out the bucks to have them fixed.

Like the other guy who pointed this out, I am Apple's little bitch b/c I'm simply not willing to deal with Windows or Linux. They're just a business, like any other business. And they've got me.

Mike from Ann Arbor

[ctt1wbw]

I have a G3 PowerBook 266, that's a Wallstreet I think. I have had it for almost 2 years now. I am on that thing almost every day. I have had not one single problem with the hinge or the monitor or the battery or anything. Maybe I got the 'book that was made on a Wednesday or something after the tech got laid the previous night. Maybe some 'books that were made on a Friday before a three day weekend are having problems. All I know is I am using that PowerBook all the time. No problemas...

150 people have already signed up for some sort of group complaint.
register your dead/dying/repaired powerbook at:
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kenao/unhinged/join.html

more links about the powerbook design flaw: http://www.ews.uiuc.edu/~ewwhite/clutch.html http://www2.linkedresources.com/teac...ook/hinge.html http://www.go2mac.com/feedback.cfm?newsID=7420 http://www.macnn.com/news.php?id=1658 http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~kenao/u...d/updates.html http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Foru...ML/001115.html

PB 400 Pismo; Lime, Strawberry, Blueberry, Grape, Tangerine iMac DV 400's Rev D; PM G3 B&W 350 o/c to 450; iBook Blueberry Rev A;
I have briefly scanned over all these posts about wintel, hinges, whining, etc. I'm sure everyone who is contemplating buying a wintel is primarily thinking about the $$$savings, not to be a windows user. If that is why, then they would have gotten virtual PC and been fine with it. If my hinge is going to fail (which it is in the process of doing by the way) after only seven months, I would have bought a wintel hottop and saved a few hundred bucks in the process. I mean, Windows is basically s***, but you can't really shop around for laptop mac clones anymore, can you? So quit P****** all over wintel, as some have stated, they are only companies out to make money as well! A computer is a computer, anyone who hates Macs or Windows or whathaveyou, they are only lookinf for something to focus their anger at anyways from their own personal life. I love computers of all kinds, even calculators! To bad there isn't an OS as stable as a calculators, but I digress. Has anyone even pondered whether apple used the same hinge in the iBook? They must not, they opted for a WORSE version of the hinge. ALL iBooks I have seen can't hold their own weight after 20 degrees past their TDC. Even mine! And that is from day one. My Pismo, after 7 months of ownership, has 2" of play in it already. I think that is quite too soon, and to discover that apple is using the same hinge as previous models of powerbook bafffles me. If in turn I find out that apple used the same type of hinge in their buy here/pay here metal powerbook, then indeed this pismo is the last hottop from apple I shall buy. I cannot justify spending 3500 for a laptop that will not "hold it's weight". I'm not fond of buying a wintel laptop either, but maybe I can lug one of my imacs back and forth to work. But how will I coordinate my outfits to go with their colors, I don't know. And for all of those that have a "rusty hinge" as I do with their powerbooks, I can make u rest assured that apple will not fix them for free ever! How come? Ask any simple iBook owner, as myself, about the first disappoint they found with it. After their many discussions forums on apples own site about a SOUND IN port, they decided to change colors and add firewire, AND STILL NO SOUND IN PORT. I've had that peice of junk opened up many times, there is room for it! But no! Let's make everyone by a USB converter. And with the new metal powerbook, if I actually did buy one and use it for the same amount of time I have used my powerbook, it would look as good as a car involved in a head on collision with a dump truck stuck on a train track at 8 in the morning, and the 8:05 train is a runnin' early! And as for iBooks, finding there was no OBVIOUS feature of a sound in port, it was like meeting on old high school friend you had not seen in twenty years, and then finding out they had a sex change operation, you just don't know what to do

[Dispiacere]

With every manufacturer, there is a tolerance in production for "bad" products, say 1-5% even.For every 1000 power books there are probably 10-50 pbs which are badly built. Maybe even higher, due to the different manufacturers involved like Reel, Samsung, LG etc.
Does Apple have a responsibility to cover defects? YES!
But how long should they cover it for? 1 year is the warranty, 2 years if you buy it with a credit card that has extended warranties, or 3 years extended services contracts like Applecare etc. The problem is nobody likes the fact that a machine breaks down, but they do. If Apple wants to keep customers happy, then they should bend the rules a little. And in America, we have shown companies that we will not stand for ridiculous policies. Remember Appleshare 6.1 upgrade Apple wanted to charge for? FInally they reneged. But that didn't cost them that much. How about the G4 Cube cracks? Would cost them millions to fix that? Did anyone think that maybe that's why sales on down at Apple:the lack of customer satisfaction over that issue?
Also Apple users in general are the most loyal bunch of customers around. Even with crappy customer service and sometimes shakey products, they still come back for more.
I boycotted Apple for dumping clones. That lasted for 2 years. And I purchase over 15 computers (desktops) and 3-4 laptops at a time. I bought the AGP G4 DPs (and have had a few problems which were taken care of) and pismos only because it finally was worth more than the NT systems we were replacing. I finally bought Apple again only for merit and the fact that my VAR has done very well in fixing everything for me quickly and with no pain. No product is perfect! no company is perfect! If you feel so strongly, start a lawsuit and see where you go. Maybe you'll get that call from Steve, wanting the whole thing just to go away.
DO SOMETHING MORE THAN COMPLAIN ON THE BOARDS! REVOLUTION!!

[mehtajr]

Originally posted by shaggy314:
Not to really rub it in either, but how many of these people who have 2 year old PowerBook have AppleCare? My computer is covered for 3 years if the hinges go out, it costs me nothing but a week's time. Apple's warranty is for 1 year. It was 1 year when you bought it, what's the surprise that something is failing outside that time and Apple not wanting to cover it for free. You all chose to NOT get the extended warranty because you bet that you wouldn't need it, now you do and you are complaining. You cannot have it both ways. Why should you get the repair for free when you didn't pay for AppleCare and I did. If you get a free repair, then Apple should refund my AppleCare.

The minor detail you've overlooked is that Apple has told us that these are cases of normal wear and tear. Normal wear and tear _is not covered_ by warranty. Apple's been refusing to fix these problems under the 1 yr warranty, and, needless to say, AppleCare as well.

As to my PBG3 (actually, 2 PBG3s), it's been an utter lemon.

I bought a new machine Christmas of 1998. It lasted three weeks before the hinges cut the display cable, causing the screen to fail. Apple, in a good display of support that affirmed my wisdom in picking their product, shipped me a new PowerBook overnight in return for my agreement to send back the broken one for engineering review.

PowerBook #2 has led a longer but less charmed life. First, the damn serial number wears off the bottom of the machine. Good luck getting anything fixed beyond that point. Hey guys, stupid question here I know, but how damned hard would it be to put a serial number sticker INSIDE THE COMPUTER?!

Anyway, a few months later, the hard drive fails (refuses to read/write to certain sectors, despite several low-level formats, zeroing all data on the drive, etc.). Call Apple... "that's normal behavior," I'm told. It's normal for the drive to fail and make the machine useless?! I end up paying over $300 to replace the hard drive after being stone-walled by Apple (my dealer refused to even tell me what kind of tool I needed to change the drives... I had to go ask the service people at the local PC DEALER to figure it out).

Later, the sound card fails (the sound out port quits working). After a week long run-around with Apple Support, they finally fix the damn thing after determining that the machine is still under warranty (and threatening to charge me anyway if they couldn't turn it up in their records). Sorry I didn't have the sales paperwork guys, but there was none. Remember, that whole "3 week" fiasco?

Finally, about 18 months into PowerBook #2's life, the hinges break with a sickening "CRACK." Had I been smart and called Apple then (in July), my machine likely might've been repaired for free (Apple was in a giving mood and authorizing free repairs up until 12/15/2000). Instead, I didn't have time and muddled along with my new "proptop." Until, a few months later, the busted hinges cut the display cable. AGAIN. Causing screen failuer. AGAIN.

That's a failed screen on two PBG3s. I contact Apple on a Friday afternoon (12/15/2000), they call me back on Monday evening. The party line: no more free repairs. Why the free repairs to begin with? According to the guy I talked to at Apple Customer Relations, *all* of the machines fixed for free had been authorized in order to gather machines for an engineering survey, which had just been completed, that shows that the machines aren't failing "in a high enough proportion to the number of units sold" for this to be a free fix.

Wait a minute. This sound like the Ford Pinto to anyone else? Hedging your bets based on the number of units, even though you know that there admittedly ARE a significant number of failures?

Of course, I also confront them with the fact that machines were authorized for free repairs on Friday afternoon (the same day I contacted them). So, they're telling me with a straight face that the owners of these machines were overnighted boxes, returned their computers, and had them thoroughly reviewed by engineering. Then, a report was prepared to management, which handed down the no repairs edict to Apple Support. OVER ONE WEEKEND.

I know a bald-faced lie when I hear one.

As a supporter of the Mac for over 10 years (my family currently owns 6 Macs, with countless more that have been put out to pasture over the years), this is a slap in the face. This machine is a replacement for a defective computer... which failed in a similar manner. Now I should pay $310 to make it functional again? For what, so the hinges can break again in 18 months (as Apple has taken no action to change or improve the design)?

No thanks. I'll keep my WallStreet paperweight until either someone sues or Apple quietly admits that this was a defective product (Performas? Spartacus Macs? PowerBook 5300s? Bueller? Bueller?).

Then I'll start seriously looking at other manufacturers. If I'm going to get lousy quality products, I sure as hell am not going to pay a $1,000 premium for them.

Finally gave up on Apple fixing this problem. A post on one of the other forums on this problem (there are a lot of them!) mentioned a place in Phoenix (where I live by coincidence) that was replacing hinges, PB Parts. http://www.pbparts.com

My machine is fixed, 24 hour turnaround (they even picked up and delivered), with new engineered hinges by pbparts. They also fixed my power supply board, which had solder cracked at the connector, which prevented my machine from working at all. Total repair - $75 (I am local, so as an experiment they replaced only one hinge, the other hopefully will be OK with the new right hinge, which is the one that usually fails initially)

They also fixed a second 266 Wallstreet that I had been told had a bad motherboard. It was actually a bad keyboard - total repair cost with new keyboard - $120. Estimate from Apple $$$$!

PBparts are also fixing power supplies, although I will first try to fix my own, as I have 3 bad ones. Seems the wires break off at the connector - another engineering design flaw by Apple. (a ten cent problem that forces you to spend another $90 on a replacement supply. I'm starting to think they engineer the obsolescence in _THINK DIFFERENT_ - but a responsible American company would never do that, RIGHT?)

I was ecstatic with the repairs. Last week BOTH my machines were down and I was forced to use my son's 5500, thinking I would have to come up with $1300 to get the PB's repaired at Apple's estimate - almost their current market value. I now have working 2 PB's, one in nearly new condition (2 for 1 Ti anyone?). Wish I had found out earlier - I was miserable for the month without a working PB - .

Screw APPLE on their $300 hinge repair. Do it cheap and fast. Save your receipt, maybe we will win a class action settlement yet. It is a design flaw - and they shouldn't make money off of it.

A genetic $300 repair would about destroy the used PB market. $40 to $80 isn't bad though - it gives a decent machine with a great screen new life.

[email protected]

everyone knows apple users are all unhinged anyways, whats the problem?

Apple has finally authorized 3rd party replacement of these parts. Tekserve in NYC ( http://www.tekserve.com )just did mine at $55/clutch + $90 labor, and they did it WHILE I WAITED -- no 5 day turnaround via Airborne Express. Costs more than PBPARTS, but I couldn't aford to be without my PB more than an hour! Those not in NYC, check your friendly local Apple dealer.

Perhaps Apple is feeling overwhelmed by the number of these repairs converging at their repair center?