[kilechki]

Two options :

a) You are a historian of french public mentality troughout the 20h century, specialized in sports. Fame did not come, you ruminate on your wrong choice of discipline. Alcohol could help you.
b) You suffer from paranoid tendancies which produce a deep sentiment of persecution. After having eaten bad pizza in a restaurant on the riviera and for whatever reason, you hold the french people as the direct responsible for the bad quality of your TV reception. A psy could help you.

Perhaps I should do a poll.


...
I'm really sorry but I can't understand your point. As you may know, only very few french cyclists have won the Tour, and the most loved french cyclists was Poulidor, aka "l'éternel second" (as he never got to take the first place). Nationality has nothing to do with it. This is all about sport. For some, it is even better if a frenchman can win, as in every other country.

PS : the last line is a true rhetorical question. Yours is not.
"You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?"

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

The French take pride in living up to that stereotype thank you very much. Bon Jour.

And you live up to the American stereotype by not knowing how to spell "bonjour".

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Yeah, but the French (not all) hate the fact that an American can just stroll into their country and dominate their most prestigious sporting event for 7 straight years. It kills them. You can't deny that.

Yes you can. That is absolute rubbish. The French adore Armstrong. One French newspaper has gone after him, but the French consider him French. A greater percentage of the French population knows who Armstrong is and what he's done than Americans.

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

The French just hate the US.

More rubbish. There's no country that the French like more than America.

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

If Lance was from anywhere other than the US L'equipe would not be targeting him with such fervor.

Again, nonsense. The French media attacked their own rider, Richard Virenque, with just as much fervour. If it wasn't Equipe breaking this story, it simply wouldn't be reported. The reason the French media is implicated is because the French love cycling more than any other nation and because the Tour happens in France. Like any newspaper, Equipe is looking to sell papers.

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Basically the French won't be content, until a Frenchman wins the tour.

Are you saying that a Frenchman has never won the tour?

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by kilechki

Two options :

a) You are a historian of french public mentality troughout the 20h century, specialized in sports. Fame did not come, you ruminate on your wrong choice of discipline. Alcohol could help you.
b) You suffer from paranoid tendancies which produce a deep sentiment of persecution. After having eaten bad pizza in a restaurant on the riviera and for whatever reason, you hold the french people as the direct responsible for the bad quality of your TV reception. A psy could help you.

Perhaps I should do a poll.


...
I'm really sorry but I can't understand your point. As you may know, only very few french cyclists have won the Tour, and the most loved french cyclists was Poulidor, aka "l'éternel second" (as he never got to take the first place). Nationality has nothing to do with it. This is all about sport. For some, it is even better if a frenchman can win, as in every other country.

PS : the last line is a true rhetorical question. Yours is not.
"You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?"

Or option three...you are totally incorrect...as usual. I understand your point...I just don't agree with it. That kind of perspective might be asking too much of your 4 brain cells.

A rhetorical question is one that is asked "in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than elicit information." i asked you: "What's next for you?..." which if you look at the rest of post is a rhetorical question. who really cares, but just know you are worng.

I guess this is a stalemate.....have fun in New Berlin.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Isn't that pretty broadly stereotyping? It's like saying everyone with brown hair uses crack. Totally fatuous.

There are a huge number of American athletes, and the vast majority do not use drugs to enhance their performance. We hear about the few who do because that's how the news media work.

I was alluding to the fact that Greg Lemond himself questionned modern bikers 'extraodinary' physical abilities. He probably knows what he is talking about, and he is not French.......

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by villalobos

I was alluding to the fact that Greg Lemond himself questionned modern bikers 'extraodinary' physical abilities. He probably knows what he is talking about, and he is not French.......

I saw LeMond's griping as sour grapes. He had nothing but praise for Armstrong as long as his record of three TdF victories was safe. When Armstrong won number four, LeMond suddenly had things to criticize.

[Troll]

As I said to Artful Dodger, I think it is very difficult to talk about the entire nation's feelings for Lance but it's impossible, if you do think they dislike him, to say that they dislike him because he's American. Michael Schumacher is another controversial sports figure. Are we to believe that the French nation hate him too because he's German.

Here's are some different perspectives on the French public's relationship with Lance.

http://www.velonews.com/tour2003/new...es/4719.0.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/othe...ng/4713261.stm
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...507190354.html

From the last one:
"I can't say enough good things about it (France). I genuinely love this country, the culture, the history. I don't know what else I can do," he said. "Of course, four or five people a day seem to know it all and have a lot of nasty things to say. But ultimately, I think we have a fine relationship."
Lance Armstrong

Hey, at least one Texan loves France!

[Lord Kronos]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Yeah, but the French (not all) hate the fact that an American can just stroll into their country and dominate their most prestigious sporting event for 7 straight years. It kills them. You can't deny that. France would like nothing more than to dethrown Lance. I am pointing to broader observation here. The French just hate the US. If Lance was from anywhere other than the US L'equipe would not be targeting him with such fervor. Basically the French won't be content, until a Frenchman wins the tour. Until then, everyone will be accused of some kind of cheating, but if your American you'll get extra special bashing.

What's next for you? Perhaps you'll enlighten me on the efficacy of the Maginot Line. Lance could have ridden past that with greater ease than the Germans. Please spare me a reply I'm sick of reading your dellusional ramblings.

The French love the US, they always have, they're just scared of Bush.

L'Equipe has treated French sportsmen far worse than they have Armstrong. This is a fact.

I'm sure you realise why Armstrong is under such tight scrutiny; there's a strong case against him (his cancer doesn't help) and yet he's never been caught. That leaves us with only two options. And frankly, I don't think anyone really cares, everyone seems to love the guy (including the French).

[Don Pickett]

The director of Canada's top anti-doping laboratory on Tuesday said she was "very surprised" over doping allegations raised in a four-page story in the French sports daily L'Equipe.

Doctor Christiane Ayotte, director of the Doping Control Laboratory at Montreal's Institut National de la Recherché Scientifique, said that the L'Equipe story, outlining charges that seven-time Tour de France winner had used EPO at the 1999 edition of the race, raised several important scientific and ethical questions, beginning with the assertion that France's anti-doping lab had tested frozen urine samples five years after the fact.

"I don't dispute their findings," Ayotte said. "If there's residual EPO after five years, it was properly identified. We are not that lucky here."

"We are extremely surprised that urine samples could have been tested in 2004 and have revealed the presence of EPO," Ayotte said in an interview with VeloNews on Tuesday. "EPO - in its natural state or the synthesized version - is not stable in urine, even if stored at minus 20 degrees."

More

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Surprise you are from Paris. If it wasn't for the US you'd be writing from New Berlin. Why don't you try critiquing my post with actual points, instead of trying to be funny...and failing miserably. I'm using history as an informant, as opposed to my emotions. Perhaps you'd like to speculate what shape France would be in today if D-Day never occured. Don't try to belittle the achievements of America. Truth Hurts.

This ancient history is irrelevant.

America was unable to take over Canada in 1812, and Canadians burned down the US Whitehouse. Does this have any bearing on today? No.

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, does that mean that they are all a bunch of pricks? No. Things change.

Take your hatred of the French that you try to justify with some history factoid you picked up somewhere elsewhere, please.

[typoon]

Like many have said IF they new this at least a year ago how come they didn't release it then? I think this report and test is kind of suspect to me. I would need more proof. They should test ALL his samples from 1999-2005. 1 sample from some testing agency? They don't even have an A Sample to test it against. I've read it was "used up" huh? It was used up for what? To perfect this test? Then the B Sample is now being tested and all of a sudden it shows "signs" fo EPO. Next, Lance was probably one of the most tested Cyclists on the tour since he IS the champion. Wouldn't they have found more "evidence" of EPO? I would think so.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by typoon

Lance was probably one of the most tested Cyclists on the tour since he IS the champion. Wouldn't they have found more "evidence" of EPO? I would think so.

As I understood it the testing methods are now better than they were in 1999 and that is why they could detect the EPO doping now but not back then.

[osxisfun]

> For the French, Armstrong accomplishment is far too great for them to comprhend, therefore, in their minds, he must be cheating.

I'm so glad most americans do not post idiocy like you did in the posts of yours in this thread...

Quit embarrasing this country.

[ambush]

Originally Posted by budster101

Sour grapes. Nothing to see here. The French, they are bitter like their chocolate... as usual.

Yes. But this Ad Hominem rhetoric does not work when you want to prove you're not doped.

I was in France just yesterday and read the special issue of L'Équipe. The labs are 100% positive there are traces of EPO in his blood (or whatever the acronym is in English).

[ambush]

For those who don't know l'Équipe, they're so harsh when it comes to doping -- even with people from their own country.

[baw]

He ought to just return for an 8th Tour. "In yo face, b*#@%!."

[budster101]

Even the French riders are saying lay off, it is not proveable.

[Kevin]

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by ambush

For those who don't know l'Équipe, they're so harsh when it comes to doping -- even with people from their own country.

wow, thanks for posting. you've really added a lot to this thread. so authoritative!

[besson3c]

The proof is in the pudding:

[ambush]

Even the French riders are saying lay off, it is not proveable.

Actually, the reaction is mixed. Some people say it's too early to take a position, some bash him, some trust him.

Also: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proveable .

[Eug Wanker]

"I am very worried about the circumstances about the way such information might have been leaked," Ayotte said. "We are fully allowed - and it is our duty - to investigate samples to make sure that if there is an adverse finding, it is properly reported. In this case, however, the director of the laboratory acknowledges that it cannot be deemed a doping offense because 1) the athlete has retired and 2) he is placed in a situation where there is now way to have the sample re-tested or verified."

"It seems to me," Ayotte continued, "that this whole thing is breach of the WADA code. We are supposed to work confidentially until such time that we can confirm a result. By no means does this mean that we sweep a result under the carpet, but it has to meet a certain set of requirements."

Ayotte said that the lab itself isn't facing questions in the matter.

"It isn't the lab that has the critical bit of information - the link between the code on the sample and the name of the athlete," she noted. "We only get a code at these WADA labs. Someone else must have supplied the paper with the names and their respective codes. So, to me, this whole thing raises a number of questions. I'm worried, because I have a great deal of respect for my colleagues in Paris. I am concerned that they did not cover their backs before being dragged into a very public issue of this kind."

[budster101]

They have to go back to 1999 to even have a clue? What a joke. Don't these people have lives? Oh wait, they do, they are just bitter...

[absolut78]

The fact that this story is such an issue just goes to show how much faith we put in the media... especially the source of the story. They (L'Equipe) have been after Armstrong ever since he started wining, why whould we take their word considering they have so much to do with the TdF itself. Samples from 1999... wow, 6 years of piss just sitting around, no way can a test on the sample be called effective.

What about the following years when Lance was tested repeatedly? Did he just need drugs for the one year and that was it? Come on people, this story is just bad jouurnalism and that is all.

As far as the French hating Americans - get a clue. That is such a bad stereotype it isn't fuunny any more. I am sure that if a European country won an event that was considered 'American' we would give them some grief in the press. If you ever have the chance to sit with the French at a sporting event, or even the Germans or English or even Italians, you will see that they are as passionate about sports as we are sometimes. One news agency doesn't speak for an entire nation - not when most other news stories written on Lance were very favourable.

[Lancer409]

Originally Posted by Millennium

This is someone of exceptional natural ability. He happens to be American. I do not see what the big deal is.

Interestingly enough, while he may have a freakishly large heart, insane lung capacity and longer than normal thigh bornes? he still wouldnt have won the tdf 7 in a row if it WASNT for cancer. the cancer (glad he made it through) HELPED his performance by altering his physique. That being said... 7 wins .. wow

[Lancer409]

Originally Posted by Kevin

is this jpg some fad or trend? i mean, i dont 'nn like i used to but geez. now i see this pic everywhere...

[Troll]

Originally Posted by absolut78

They (L'Equipe) have been after Armstrong ever since he started wining,

Whining or winning?

If the latter, d-uh. How many papers do you know that write about the losers in sport?

Agree with all your points, just thought it was worth reinforcing that. If you saw what Equipe writes about Schumi ... especially now that a Renault is leading the championship.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

I guess this is a stalemate.....have fun in New Berlin.

You really are an idiot.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

As I understood it the testing methods are now better than they were in 1999 and that is why they could detect the EPO doping now but not back then.

I understand that. What I meant was as the years have gone on the testing has gotten better. Don't you think if he was doping they would have found something?

Lance is/was the most tested cyclist if not Athlete in the World. Don't you think they would have found something from the hundreds if not thousands of tests he's had over the past 7 years? I would think so. According to his book they were able to test for drugs anytime of day anytime they wanted. Since that was the case I think they would have found something. This is just a witch hunt by L'Equipe against Armstrong to find something that might stick and try and bring him down.

1 set of Samples from 6 years ago? hmmmm Sounds kinda suspect to me. Let's have them test ALL the samples til the present time and see what they find. IF it IS proven in more than one sample then I will change my position on Lance. Until then He's still innocent in my book and is still the greatest Tour Champion in history.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

You really are an idiot.

Can't play well with others? Not mature enough to avoid the namecalling?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Can't play well with others? Not mature enough to avoid the namecalling?

Get over it already. Artful Dodger made xenophobic remarks both towards first the French and then the Germans. Which makes him an idiot in my opinion. You may feel free to disagree.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Get over it already. Artful Dodger made xenophobic remarks both towards first the French and then the Germans. Which makes him an idiot in my opinion. You may feel free to disagree.

Still no excuse to resort to that stupidity, it only drags you down, not him. Grow up.

[typoon]

Here is Lance's Statement from an Exclusive Media Q&A he had yesterday. Source- thepaceline.com

by Dan Osipow
Speaking to a small group of reporters from a hotel in Washington, DC, following a rousing affair at the Silver Spring, MD, headquarters of the Discovery Channel, where he was congratulated for his latest Tour de France victory by a throng of employees from his team's title sponsor, Lance Armstrong defended himself against the latest accusations by the French media, first reported in the sports daily, L'Equipe, yesterday.

Each reporter on the call had the opportunity to ask a question of Lance.

Comment on today's comments by Tour de France director Jean-Marie Leblanc:

"Like everybody, I was surprised. I actually spoke to Jean-Marie yesterday for about 30 minutes and he didn't say any of that stuff to me personally, so to wake up and read them this morning, I was caught a little bit off guard. But to say that I've fooled the fans is preposterous. I've been doing this a long time. We have not just one year of only 'B' samples to say I've fooled the fans, we have seven years of 'A' and 'B' samples and they're all negative. There's never been EPO in there. There's never been steroids in there. So to say after there are a few 'B' samples left around, and by the way, we can't prove if your right or wrong, you cannot defend yourself, to then to say you've wronged the fans and fooled the fans is absolutely unfair."

What was your impression following your phone call with Jean-Marie:

"I asked him to put himself in my position. We all know the history here. You know my history with the French. You know my history with the French media, the French Ministry of Sport, the organizers, the labs, the prosecutors, the police, etc. It has been a witch hunt. That was not just a catch phrase to put in the press release to be at the headline. I think all of us are smart enough to know that this has been going on for a long time, close to a decade.

So I asked him to put himself in my shoes. You give a guy a death sentence or you give him a permanent black eye or a serious blow to his reputation and whatever legacy he has, but you don't give him a 'B' sample or don't even give him a 'C' sample to test and confirm, or deny, there was EPO there. When I explained it like that, he was very understanding on the phone. I will say the comments that are rolling out now were said before he and I spoke because I caught him late at night and he gave the interview that was rolling today yesterday midday his time. When I hung up the phone, I said, 'look, you've got my phone number, my email address. If you've got any questions or concerns, you call me 24 hours a day, any time, any where, I'm here.'"

Talk about how this has hurt your reputation and what that means to the causes you represent:

"We haven't seen anything. We haven't seen any damage. The partners and sponsors that I've been involved with for a long time immediately wrote back letters of support. They're smart enough to understand the situation and they can look at this thing objectively, as they have for six or seven years, so nobody has questioned it or been concerned. Just today, we spent the entire day at Discovery. We had a great reception, talked to the employees, this was already planned before this came out, but nonetheless we had a great day. Yesterday, I spent half the day with PowerBar doing stuff for them and they've been great. Everybody along the way is fine. Again, I think they're taking a very objective view of the science, of the history here with the French, they're taking into consideration the four or five anti doping experts around the world that have gone on the record and said this is crazy. We've not had anybody pull out."

What can you say to the cancer community that consider you a hero/role model:

"I will not waiver at all from my statement that I've always said - I've never taken performance enhancing drugs. This is not proof of that. Yeah, you have a major story that was put out by L'Equipe but when you start to break it down, you say, OK, how did that happen? Then you look at the science behind it - almost everybody says 'well, that's not possible.' You start to look at the ethics behind it and say, 'Well, if it was possible, why is it then in the newspaper?' Ethically, how can you put a guy's name or prosecute a guy like that when he has no defense?

I will tell you two things, and I don't know how involved WADA was in this affair, but I know two pieces of the WADA code that are very important. Number one, if an athlete only has one sample left, it is strictly mandated that that sample must always remain anonymous. If any WADA accredited laboratory wants to use that sample, for experimentation, or scientific research, they must have the approval of the athlete. So right there, you have two serious violations of the new WADA code. Now, I don't need to tell you guys that Chatenay-Malabry is one of the main WADA labs in the world."

Continued in next thread

[typoon]

When and how did you first hear of this and did you know the samples existed?

"I found out Monday afternoon. Look, they have samples of Eddy Merckx in laboratories, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they have my samples. We knew that they had the samples in 2000, we offered to give them over. Clearly they've tested all of my samples since then to the highest degree. So, yeah, of course they have the samples - but I can tell you, when I gave those samples, there was not EPO in those samples, I guarantee you that."

What's the most objectionable thing about this affair?

"Where to start, where to start...I don't know. It's been a long love-hate relationship between myself and the French and I don't know what would encourage somebody to do something like this or even think about doing something like this. But I think when you couple the fact we don't know how long the samples were stored properly, if they were ever stored properly, you couple the questions from some of the leaders in that field as to whether or not you can ever test for that five, six years later.

L'Equipe has changed their position towards cycling, I think, in the last 6-12 months and they've taken a very aggressive, sensational approach. Obviously, this is great business for them. Unfortunately, I'm caught in the cross hairs. As we know, it could be potentially a much deeper issue between the UCI and the Tour de France with regards to the ProTour. It could be a much deeper issue with regards to certain people and their votes towards who won the Olympic bid for summer of 2012, etc., etc. This thing could go on and on. At the end of the day, it's up to most people, and you guys lead the people, it's up to you guys, to talk about the science behind it and is this a possibility or not?"

What do you think about the timing of this?

"I suppose they would have much preferred to have done this either at the start of the Tour or in the middle of the Tour and for whatever reason, they were delayed. That's the peak season for them in terms of selling papers. At the end of the day, that's what I think this is all about. This is an opportunity to sell a ton of papers. You devote an entire front page for days after days after days. You give it four of five pages of absolutely biased reporting and it sells."

Is this the lowest point for you in terms of your career, other than the cancer. Where does this rank?

"Absolutely not. Truth on my side, I know what happened and what I have, this is not the only six or eight or 10 samples ever given. You're talking about 300 samples. If you can show me another athlete that's been more drug tested in his life, please do. And you know what? People are going to come along and compare this to Rafeal Palmeiro or somebody else, well guess what? I've got two things to say to that - 'A' and a 'B' sample. You either defend yourself or you don't. And in this situation...how could I defend myself in this position other than say this is absolutely crazy? They talk about six samples being positive. As we all can go back and do the math from 1999, there were more samples given than that. Where did they all go? And who are the other athletes? Why is it just me? If your going to name one guy, aren't you naming the other 15 that they reportedly found? Does that sound fishy?"

Have you considered any legal action?

"Right now, we're considering all our options. As you all know, we have a few cases going on. We're on top of those, we're confident we're going to win those, we're absolutely going to win those. Do we want another one? Who do you take action against in this case? Is it WADA? Is it the Ministry? Is it L'Equipe? Is it the laboratory? Who is it? They're all at fault there. Ultimately, yeah, if you do have a trial you get to the bottom of it and you find out who sabotaged the process and you find out who leaked the details. But, in the meantime, it costs you a million, a million and a half dollars, costs you a couple years of your life. But guess what guys? I've got a lot of things I can do with a million and a half dollars that are a lot better than this and I've got a lot things better to do with two years of my life than deal with this. So ultimately, I'm going to have to ask myself that question."

[malvolio]

All you folks who make such a fuss about the US saving France's bacon in the past should just remember that without the French, we 'Muricans would still be part of the British Empire.

[budster101]

Good point. But, in a way, the French then saved themselves in WWII, by saving us before hand.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by budster101

Good point. But, in a way, the French then saved themselves in WWII, by saving us before hand.

I guess the French should thank the Brits for having been a pain in the European ass for centuries now, huh?

[stefls]

Man, even if Lance used EPO back in 1999 (as probably almost ALL other cyclists did at that time) and not any more afterwards, he still is a phenomenal sportsman .
Furthermore, I think it is about time for a massive exchange programme to let Europeans experience the US and vice versa. That will get rid of this generalising rubbish talk. I want to go

[ambush]

Americans who really love Armstrong can at least say without a doubt that their idol wasn't the only person using performance-enhancing drugs.

Conclusion of this fiasco? Tests are *so* not useful. Most of today's pro-level athletes will always use new drugs that can't be found in tests, etc. Sad truth.

[Lancer409]

ignore. i cant believe i just pulled a half day repost

[JoshuaZ]

Let the man be. The reason he kept winning is so obvious. He only has one testicle. That makes him more aerodynamic. Duh.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by ambush

Americans who really love Armstrong can at least say without a doubt that their idol wasn't the only person using performance-enhancing drugs.

Conclusion of this fiasco? Tests are *so* not useful. Most of today's pro-level athletes will always use new drugs that can't be found in tests, etc. Sad truth.

So you mean to tell me that His obession with the tour and his hard work have nothing to do with it. He just takes the drugs and he's just able to win the big race. Lance's only training was for the tour. He worked harder than ANYONE on the circuit at winning the tour. When the course is announced he rides the course then he trains on the course several more times a year. He works at getting the most out of the technolgy available to him. Yup that has nothing to do with it. It's all about the drugs.

I wonder if "The Great one" doped because he couldn't be that good. It can't be from all his hard work. nope that just doesn't happen.

[mr. burns]

all i wanna say is: i told you so.

[Pendergast]

Somehow, with the increase of performance we see year after year, the likelihood that better drugs are used to help athletes is also increasing. I don't know if Armstrong used any, but I figure it is possible. Yet, until it is proven true, I will go with the idea that he is clean.

Realistically, we cannot do better than that.

But speculating is one of these activities where doping is not helpful, yet one of the most entertaining, as we all know.

[villalobos]

It seems tht more people 'in the business' believes Lance used EPO after all.

http://news.lycos.co.uk/sport/050905...fbkxk.xml.html

None other than the president of the WADA. Oh and he is not french, in case some of you wondered....

[baw]

World Anti Doping Agency, .

[sminch]

Do some research on why Lance is so good... for instance his VO2 max is only bested by one other athlete who is not even a cyclist. He also does not produce but a fraction of lactic acid when his legs are fatiqued hence his hill climbing is amazing.

crikey, could your argument be any more circular? he doesn't need to juice to improve his stats because his stats are high? wtf?

sminch (who isn't arguing whether lance juiced or not, but is just pointing out the extraordinary crapness of your reasoning)

[jcadam]

most elite athletes take drugs. It is not to give themselves a competitive advantage anymore, it is what is necessary simply to compete, because everyone is doing it.

[budster101]

I'm glad to see people BELIEVE he did something... I believe a lot of things, as do many others.
So many people believe in God... must be true. Right?