[ort888]

I'd like to see sane prices for RAM and HD upgrades in the BTO store.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Let me try to inject some sense into this debate.

Desktop sales are in decline. There are two reasons for this. Firstly, new desktops today are not enough of an improvement over hardware from 5 years ago to the average PC user that its worth them spending the money.
[...]
Secondly, laptops are now close enough to desktops in performance price to justify them as a replacement for an old tower.

Your arguments are true, but they don't explain why the iMac line, specifically, is the *only* line on the desktop market that is bucking the decline.

There is a third reason that IME tops the other two for the home market: laptops disappear when you're done. Portability is actually irrelevant to much of the market, especially since iPhone and iPad are becoming valid mobile options. The iMac is pretty much the only desktop that doesn't need to disappear.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Your arguments are true, but they don't explain why the iMac line, specifically, is the *only* line on the desktop market that is bucking the decline.

There is a third reason that IME tops the other two for the home market: laptops disappear when you're done. Portability is actually irrelevant to much of the market, especially since iPhone and iPad are becoming valid mobile options. The iMac is pretty much the only desktop that doesn't need to disappear.

iMacs are being used to replace Mac Pros which accounts for some of the trend, the rest I suspect is just the general growth of Apple and their market share. People are still realising that Macs are worth the extra cost more and more.

[Spheric Harlot]

I was talking about the home market, which is where Apple's target and the majority of its sales lie.

Mac Pro sales have always been minuscule, and the MPs being replaced by iMacs probably contribute very little to the trend.

[ghporter]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned yet (lots of stuff has!) but because of the complexity and difficulty in expanding the iMac platform, I'd like to see an eSATA port on the next iMac. That's about it for hardware.

But I also would like Apple to address a few software issues like "why doesn't my Mac sleep when I want it to?" and "my AirPort connection is gone when I wake up my Mac!!11!" These problems have been around for a very long time, and they seem to be deep within the guts of OS X; those two fixes would make great "improvements" in 10.7.? When they finally get the Lion bugs beaten down to just a few. (No, I haven't upgraded yet, and I'm going to wait until the sturm und drang over the bigger Lion bugs dies down.)

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I was talking about the home market, which is where Apple's target and the majority of its sales lie.

Mac Pro sales have always been minuscule, and the MPs being replaced by iMacs probably contribute very little to the trend.

OK, but sales of iMacs are going up, but are they stealing market share from Apple laptops? (Outside Athens' circle of friends obviously). I don't think they are, so it must be the general growth of Mac sales across the board driving up the iMac sales while other desktops decline.

[Athens]

Which was one of the points I was trying to say before, if Apple came out with a mid tower Desktop as a in between for the Mac Mini and Mac Pro it sales would not relate to what goes on in the PC world. The Mac world is a totally different market with different trends. Like Glenn said, the PC desktop market is saturated. You can pick up good used PC's or continue to upgrade PC's for a very long period of time. So this is reflected in sales numbers. And with corporations extending replacement cycles due to the recession desktop sales numbers have taken 2 hits. Has nothing to do with them being undesirable. Has everything to do with having a much longer use life. My main desktop PC is 5 years old. Until Battlefield 3 I had no reason to upgrade it. Now I do. This will not end up being a PC sale though. Just some parts.

Other Wish List

The more I use Ford Sync the more I wish Apple would come out with a car computer system...

[Waragainstsleep]

The problem with the mythical Mac Mid Tower is that it would cannibalise sales from other desktop Macs unless it was oddly priced. And by oddly priced I mean overpriced and then it wouldn't sell.

It has to be more than a Mac Mini, since its bigger and more versatile, and Apple isn't going to go cheaper than the Mini anyway. It has to be less than an iMac because it has no screen. This doesn't leave a lot of room to fit it in the product lineup in a way that people who wouldn't have bought a Mac before will now buy one.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm not sure the Mac Pro is getting an overhaul. Apple doesn't seem to care much about the pro market anymore.

The plot thins: Apple 'Questioning' the Future of its Mac Pro Line? - Mac Rumors

[ort888]

Yeah, I read that earlier.

If they are upset about bad sales of the Mac Pro, they have only themselves to blame. They've let the line grow completely stagnant.

[ort888]

Here's what I think they should do.

Come up with a new case design. Something way smaller. Put one version out with crazy Octo Xeons or whatever for the pros and one version with a dual core i7 for prosumers. This case would accommodate a single hard drive and have 8 RAM slots.

Then come out with an array of various click on Thunderbolt cases that could be attached to the case. A RAID box, dual media drives, a PCI slot box, etc... The case would sort of look like a mini server rack, with these add on units slotting right underneath each other making the whole setup look like a cohesive unit.

That would give the people room to grow and give everyone a nice starting point for a desktop... as well as having a box for the pros with heavy needs.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

OK, but sales of iMacs are going up, but are they stealing market share from Apple laptops? (Outside Athens' circle of friends obviously). I don't think they are, so it must be the general growth of Mac sales across the board driving up the iMac sales while other desktops decline.

IOW, the desktop is indeed dying, and the only reason the iMax appears to be bucking that trend is because sales of Apple overall are increasing?

Hmm. Sounds plausible. Especially in light of the graphic in the MacRumors link above.

All the more reason for Apple never to design a fourth desktop line. Unless they replace the Mac Pro with it. But Apple doesn't invest into declining markets.

[sek929]

I've all but given up on ever seeing an affordable Mac Tower. If you aren't willing to shell out the big bucks (especially for the horridly overpriced bottom end MP) then Apple wants you to buy an iMac, limiting you in your upgrade path and selling more machines in the future.

Seems to me if they want to cull the fat from the MP line, just axe the lower end models and only sell high-end Mac Pros. If you want a fast consumer machine buy an iMac and put up with its limits.

[boy8cookie]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I've all but given up on ever seeing an affordable Mac Tower. If you aren't willing to shell out the big bucks (especially for the horridly overpriced bottom end MP) then Apple wants you to buy an iMac, limiting you in your upgrade path and selling more machines in the future.

Seems to me if they want to cull the fat from the MP line, just axe the lower end models and only sell high-end Mac Pros. If you want a fast consumer machine buy an iMac and put up with its limits.

What limits do you speak of? Thunderbolt has removed most of the limits.

---

Rumor: Apple to Put the Mac Pro Out of Its Misery

[Big Mac]

There are still limits even with Thunderbolt, like GPU upgrades. OTOH, Mac Pro GPU upgrades haven't been that great historically either.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

No, you don't: You want something "modular" and "pro":

Originally Posted by ort888 

I think they need to make a more affordable Mac Tower or finally create the mysterious xMac. Maybe thunderbolt will allow them to make some form of modular pro computer that you could buy in pieces.

I read that as a compromise position. If Apple won't make a machine with accessible insides, then maybe at least they can make something modular that you can build in pieces without sacrificing their precious tiny form factors.

See? You're already asking for two different things, because you don't actually KNOW what you want; you just know that Apple's product line means you need to compromise somewhere.

And I read this as making it personal.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

IOW, the desktop is indeed dying, and the only reason the iMax appears to be bucking that trend is because sales of Apple overall are increasing?

Thats my take on it, yes.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

What limits do you speak of? Thunderbolt has removed most of the limits.

---

Rumor: Apple to Put the Mac Pro Out of Its Misery

No it hasn't. Still up to manufacturers to build drivers for PCIe cards for that $1000.00 device to allow you to connect a PCIe card externally. Its x8 which is half the speed of a native PCIe slot. Its a external device, more clutter, more power connections. Will require use of adapters to use things like eSATA which on its own fine but being able to daisy chain stuff is going to be a nightmare if you have to use a spliter with every device. Again drivers... drivers and drivers oh did I mention$1000.00 just for a box to allow you to use PCIe cards?

[Waragainstsleep]

Its the first one. The price will come down as more of them appear. And more will appear as thunderbolt equipped Macs get more common and start to age requiring upgrades.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Seems to me if they want to cull the fat from the MP line, just axe the lower end models and only sell high-end Mac Pros. If you want a fast consumer machine buy an iMac and put up with its limits.

I'm really, really hoping that this is what happens, should they decide not to introduce new models in a redesigned case.

Having to use external boxes for expansion is irrelevant. Inelegant, but irrelevant. Having a faster PCIe bus is possibly relevant, as is the higher RAM ceiling, and the pure horsepower. Those things are relevant to the high end models, though.

Awesome would be the rumored 19" rack redesign.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Its the first one. The price will come down as more of them appear. And more will appear as thunderbolt equipped Macs get more common and start to age requiring upgrades.

I dunno. Magma have been building them for a decade (for PCMCIA and then express card), and they've always been $1500. This was never a problem, though, because that shit is rock-solid.

[Waragainstsleep]

They were a niche product before. Now they will go mainstream.

[Athens]

I can't see them going mainstream. I see it always being a niche product.

Back to wish list

I would love to see Apple go full force into the enterprise market with Servers, VoIP desk phones, enterprise wireless, but at the same time to many of the IT field is biased against Apple and price wins almost always with Enterprise. But I think Apple could change the office setup greatly. Half of the consumer products already fit in well.

[olePigeon]

If the Mac Pro doesn't seen an update, could be a good time to introduce an expandable and affordable mini tower.

[Big Mac]

Which Apple won't do because they want to shield the iMac from internal competition/cannibalization.

[Athens]

Honestly I think it has more to do with support then cannibalization. Once you open the door to a more expandable system, some users are going to muck up things like damage to the logic board, incompatible cards and so forth. And longer use life means longer times between customers purchases.

[ort888]

Yeah, but more appealing products also means more sales. I've been wanting a new desktop for a few years now, but keep putting off the purchase because I don't like any of the compromises.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Yeah, but more appealing products also means more sales. I've been wanting a new desktop for a few years now, but keep putting off the purchase because I don't like any of the compromises.

At this point my next computer purchase (2-3 years away) will probably be a homebuilt PC unless Apple changes something. I like my iMac, but I will always want the expandability and longevity of a tower. However, I am not folding the genome or editing movies for MGM, so the current MP is complete overkill and way out of my price range.

Kind of off-topic, but how much of a difference would I see switching over my iMac to a SSD? The RAM was maxed the day I bought it so upgrading the HDD to a SSD is the only thing I could do to increase speed. Worth it?

[boy8cookie]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Kind of off-topic, but how much of a difference would I see switching over my iMac to a SSD? The RAM was maxed the day I bought it so upgrading the HDD to a SSD is the only thing I could do to increase speed. Worth it?

An SSD will probably boost your performance more than any other single piece of hardware you can buy. Well worth it, imo.

[sek929]

Thats what I thought. I'm well out of warranty so no worries there, time to research some SSDs.

[Twilly Spree]

Number one on my Cook-era wish-list is that he introduces new mid-range towers, keeps the Mac Pro, introduces Blu-ray and thus with one fell swoop gives all the tiresome and holier-than-thou Apple fanbois a collective corenary so we can get rid of them all and never have to hear one more word from them espousing how what someone wants must be stupid because Apple isn't supporting it.

I could name names in this thread, but I think we all know who I'm referring to.

[boy8cookie]

so... ruin apple just to spite apple fan boys? sounds plausible.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

An SSD will probably boost your performance more than any other single piece of hardware you can buy. Well worth it, imo.

I absolutely second this. I added a 64GB SSD to my PC and a 240GB SSD to my Dell laptop and it was by far the best performance boost I have seen. For giggles I tried putting the SSD into my Pentium 100 but the SATA card just wouldn't work in it BUT it did work in my Pentium 2 I had kicking around and was amazing how snappy Windows XP ran on it even though it was only a 266Mhz machine.

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

so... ruin apple just to spite apple fan boys? sounds plausible.

Incredible you think it would ruin Apple. Your thinking is so narrow minded. You remind me of the nay sayer's of the iPad who expected it to fail just because tablets never took off in the PC world. The money I spend on PC desktops now would just end up in Apples pockets instead of Asus and Dell.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Incredible you think it would ruin Apple. Your thinking is so narrow minded. You remind me of the nay sayer's of the iPad who expected it to fail just because tablets never took off in the PC world.

Very valid point: Just because something is failing in the industry doesn't necessarily mean that Apple can't find a completely unique and different approach to define a future market and make the product category a raving success.

In fact, that's precisely what they did when they gave you the Mac mini, and it's been a modest success.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Twilly Spree 

Number one on my Cook-era wish-list is that he introduces new mid-range towers, keeps the Mac Pro, introduces Blu-ray and thus with one fell swoop gives all the tiresome and holier-than-thou Apple fanbois a collective corenary so we can get rid of them all and never have to hear one more word from them espousing how what someone wants must be stupid because Apple isn't supporting it.

I could name names in this thread, but I think we all know who I'm referring to.

It was worth clicking through the ignore message for that.

I see you still fail to grasp the difference between "Apple would be stupid for offering that" and "you must be stupid for wanting that".

It's okay; we're here to help you understand the world, and we're prepared to deal with your growing pains as you feel the need to lash out.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Athens 

The money I spend on PC desktops now would just end up in Apples pockets instead of Asus and Dell.

Except when you spend your money with Asus and Dell, they make hardly any profit whatsoever. Even if Tim Cool has a lobotomy and introduces an expandable Mini Tower just for you, its going to cost as mush as the Asus and the Dell put together, and probably be less powerful than either.

Originally Posted by ort888 

I'd like to see sane prices for RAM and HD upgrades in the BTO store.

I don't care too much about the RAM, as I'm happy for Apple to make the extra profits on people who don't want to install it themselves. It's the hard to replace stuff (like HDs in some models) that I wish were cheaper.

[ort888]

How about this wacky idea that will never happen but really should.

Let us buy our Macs with no RAM installed.

The first thing I do is take the RAM out and replace it. On every Mac I buy. It then goes into a drawer.

What a waste. Both financially and environmentally.

(I know full well that this will never happen in a million years, but it's nice to dream)

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Except when you spend your money with Asus and Dell, they make hardly any profit whatsoever. Even if Tim Cool has a lobotomy and introduces an expandable Mini Tower just for you, its going to cost as mush as the Asus and the Dell put together, and probably be less powerful than either.

You know if a midtower from Apple was double the price of a tower from Dell I would still pay it. Just like we pay twice as much for the Macbooks and iMacs.... Why would it be any different for a mid tower?

[Twilly Spree]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It was worth clicking through the ignore message for that.

I see you still fail to grasp the difference between "Apple would be stupid for offering that" and "you must be stupid for wanting that".

It's okay; we're here to help you understand the world, and we're prepared to deal with your growing pains as you feel the need to lash out.

Aw shucks, if it isn't the Grand Titan of the Dominion himself telling little 'ol me that I can't grasp how his sect has it right and I just don't geddit.

I reckoned, you being the kool-aid distributor-in-chief in these parts, would respond with some tired diatribe and vitriol, as the most blinded are known to react with when confronted with facts and reality.

Now I'm sure Apple will do fine in the foreseeable future, despite people like you, but damn it would be a prettier world if there were no braindead fanbois who synchronize every opinion with how they think the world should be and present their opinions and anecdotes as facts.

The fact is Apple will discontinue the Mac Pro, but it isn't because it isn't profitable - it's just because Apple is and was and always will be a very limited company. Limited in vision, execution and support. It can do one thing at a time, no more, no matter how large it grows.

The Mac market is growing, even Apple acknowledges this, though they neither understand why nor care particularly. They're focused on the iOS, a market they're losing fast to Android and soon Windows. Mentioning it is doubtless pissing on your parade, but shucks, I don't care.

One doesn't need to be Nostradamus to see Apple is quietly winding down the Mac side of the company, but one needs to be endowed with the talents of Baghdad Bob to explain it as a good thing. That's where you come in.

It's not that the Mac Pro isn't profitable for Apple, it's just that Apple doesn't care either way. That's why they don't innovate with the Mac Pro, don't advertise it, don't update it and continue to sell 2010 technology at 2010 prices in 2011 and probably 2012.

Nobody wants to buy that. And Apple will have its self-fulfilling prophecy, that nobody wants big iron desktops. While the truth is: nobody want's their old and stuffy, overpriced desktops, when the competition is so much better.

[boy8cookie]

Sonnet - Thunderbolt Storage, Adapters & Expansion Boxes

More options. Thunderbolt replaces Xserve.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Twilly Spree 

Aw shucks, if it isn't the Grand Titan of the Dominion himself telling little 'ol me that I can't grasp how his sect has it right and I just don't geddit.

I reckoned, you being the kool-aid distributor-in-chief in these parts, would respond with some tired diatribe and vitriol, as the most blinded are known to react with when confronted with facts and reality.

Now I'm sure Apple will do fine in the foreseeable future, despite people like you, but damn it would be a prettier world if there were no braindead fanbois who synchronize every opinion with how they think the world should be and present their opinions and anecdotes as facts.

The fact is Apple will discontinue the Mac Pro, but it isn't because it isn't profitable - it's just because Apple is and was and always will be a very limited company. Limited in vision, execution and support. It can do one thing at a time, no more, no matter how large it grows.

The Mac market is growing, even Apple acknowledges this, though they neither understand why nor care particularly. They're focused on the iOS, a market they're losing fast to Android and soon Windows. Mentioning it is doubtless pissing on your parade, but shucks, I don't care.

One doesn't need to be Nostradamus to see Apple is quietly winding down the Mac side of the company, but one needs to be endowed with the talents of Baghdad Bob to explain it as a good thing. That's where you come in.

It's not that the Mac Pro isn't profitable for Apple, it's just that Apple doesn't care either way. That's why they don't innovate with the Mac Pro, don't advertise it, don't update it and continue to sell 2010 technology at 2010 prices in 2011 and probably 2012.

Nobody wants to buy that. And Apple will have its self-fulfilling prophecy, that nobody wants big iron desktops. While the truth is: nobody want's their old and stuffy, overpriced desktops, when the competition is so much better.

I'm quoting this for posterity.

That's totally awesome.

I think I'm taking you permanently off ignore.

[Hash]

I think that Jobs, Cook and Ive and Co have done well with 4 lines of Macs and had great success with 4 lines of iPods and 4 lines of iPhones and 4 lines of iPads. Surely, simplicity really helps to organize production better, marketing is simpler and cost control is much easier.

Now, I just don't understand why Apple doesn't use its success model in tablets and smartphones to its desktop line? As far as I remember, form factor of desktops hasn't changed for 4-5 years, while for iPhone you have already 3 generations of new form factor and design in 4 years. Notebooks also being updated regularly.

Maybe Ive doesn't like desktops?? He designed such beauty as B&W El capitano case, G5 metal case and thats it in 10 years? Come on

[Spheric Harlot]

The Mac mini was completely revised last year, the iMac has changed twice since 2006, while the MacBook Pros were essentially unchanged from the preceding PowerBooks and kept that design going for five years until 2008.

I don't think you can divine a definite trend other than that the Mac Pro has not been redesigned in a long time. Arguably, the target market for the Mac Pro couldn't give two shits. They appreciate beauty and solidity, but insofar as they buy tools, not fashion accessories.

[11011001]

Originally Posted by Twilly Spree 

...

Nobody wants to buy that. And Apple will have its self-fulfilling prophecy, that nobody wants big iron desktops. While the truth is: nobody want's their old and stuffy, overpriced desktops, when the competition is so much better.

Given their focus on iOS, the biggest reason that I see for keeping the Mac Pro around is for the developers of and for that platform.

[boy8cookie]

Originally Posted by 11011001 

Given their focus on iOS, the biggest reason that I see for keeping the Mac Pro around is for the developers of and for that platform.

iOS development doesn't need anything that a Mac Pro offers exclusively.

[11011001]

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

iOS development doesn't need anything that a Mac Pro offers exclusively.

Some applications take a long time to build, why are you confused?

Originally Posted by 11011001 

Given their focus on iOS, the biggest reason that I see for keeping the Mac Pro around is for the developers of and for that platform.

Not really. Some developers who are ditching Mac Pros for Mac minis for distributed builds. The economics of the Mac Pro just don't add up anymore in this case.

Our office stopped doing distributed builds altogether because the quad-core i7s in our MacBook Pros are fast enough.

[11011001]

The project that I work on includes a lot of Objective-C++. Compiling everything from scratch, which happens more often than one might expect, can take several minutes on a 12-core Mac Pro. Add in external dependencies, for which we have the code, and the total build time is over 15 minutes. Additionally if the machine doesn't have enough RAM, regardless of the processor count, this can take more than 30 minutes. A single Mac Pro can beat a small cluster of minis dedicated to distributed builds. The point is, there are many developers for which a Mac Pro really helps, but may not be essential, and that largely depends on the project.

The things that help development:
- dual CPUs
- 8 RAM slots
- upgradeable GPUs
- multi-monitor setups that can't be had with an iMac or MacBook Pro.
- easily accessible drive bays for things like SSDs, and RAID

[boy8cookie]

Originally Posted by 11011001 

The things that help development:
- dual CPUs*
- 8 RAM slots**
- upgradeable GPUs***
- multi-monitor setups that can't be had with an iMac or MacBook Pro.****
- easily accessible drive bays for things like SSDs, and RAID*****

*both the iMac and Mac Mini have multi CPU options
**8 RAM slots only help if they're filled, you can get up to 32GB of RAM in an iMac
*** not sure how this helps development, elaborate?
**** please tell me what multi monitor setup you're running that my iMac cannot.
***** External enclosures are better choices for RAIDs, far and away. Then it no longer matters what it's connected to.

Point is, Mac Pro is outdated, depreciated and not worth the money. As of thunderbolt, the mac pro is obsolete.