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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > Feedback > The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This

The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This (Page 2)
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Laminar
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Aug 31, 2017, 09:57 AM
 
we decided to aggregate the discussion of the various abuse reports and to “measure twice and cut once” (i. e. reacting to all of them after we had made up our minds). So on Shaddim's end it may seem as if we “piled on”
Sure sounds like zero minutes.

"After reviewing all of these abuse reports in the queue, we believe Shaddim should be banned."

"Okay, let's issue infractions for each post reported, and the sum total of the infractions will trigger a ban."

"You guys! He was only banned because of the infraction system and how it works! Here, let me explain it to you!"
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 31, 2017, 10:37 AM
 
A lot of minor reports might have gotten ignored if there weren't a sudden avalanche of other bad behavior that followed after. So no, there wasn't an infraction on day 1, another on day 2, a third on day 3, etc. On day 4 (or whatever) there was lots of discussion, and awaiting others opinion, so it took several more days after that for the tally to be added up.

Are you saying you'd prefer more stringent moderation? If so, watch your language, sonny.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 31, 2017, 10:41 AM
 
I think the view of posters here is pretty obvious. Don't make up for lax moderation by dropping bombs. By your own admission minor infractions were being ignored, and at the risk of irritating unpaid volunteers, I think this was motivated as much by apathy as mercy.
     
Laminar
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Aug 31, 2017, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Are you saying you'd prefer more stringent moderation? If so, watch your language, sonny.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 31, 2017, 11:08 AM
 
Wow, you guys sure have a negative view of the way we handle things. Hashing things out amongst ourselves is a lot more work than just capriciously banning people or letting the PL burn. We even put in the effort to explain our reasoning here.

Yeah, we got things going on in real life just like anyone does, significant others, babies, kids, jobs, houses, hobbies and all that, and so it sometimes takes time to deal with abuse reports and other forum-related stuff. That's not the same as apathy or ignoring things, and doing the right thing remains doing the right thing, even if it is delayed by a few days.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Sure sounds like zero minutes.

"After reviewing all of these abuse reports in the queue, we believe Shaddim should be banned."

"Okay, let's issue infractions for each post reported, and the sum total of the infractions will trigger a ban."

"You guys! He was only banned because of the infraction system and how it works! Here, let me explain it to you!"
Apart from your dramatic reading, that's exactly what I wrote in a single sentence: “we discussed the abuse reports in aggregate (as they were related) and then took action, temp banning Shaddim for a week.” Of course, we made the deliberate decision to temp ban him, and we were not surprised when the temp ban point limit was reached. We just prefer to use forum tools (= infractions) to deal with problematic members, because it leaves a “paper” trail for us that has proved valuable in the past.
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ghporter
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Aug 31, 2017, 11:30 AM
 
Just to clarify, if a member receives an infraction, he/she gets an automatic message that says basically "greetings, you've earned an infraction because of X". The automatic message is part of the infraction system, and the staff member who issues the infraction provides the rationale for the infraction - which is never "too many people complained."

In this case the situation required coordination among the entire staff to ensure we were consistent and measured in our response.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 31, 2017, 11:35 AM
 
I mean I could be wrong, maybe you guys hand out infractions every week.
     
reader50
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Aug 31, 2017, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I mean I could be wrong, maybe you guys hand out infractions every week.
I didn't know this one, so I checked the system logs for the past year. Aug 31, 2016 to Aug 31, 2017: 8 Infractions, 3 Warnings on file.

Discussion of related reports took place over a couple of weeks, in particular because they could reach a ban. But also because everyone doesn't check in daily. When we reached general agreement, I handed out the infractions.

The Captain's and besson's dings took 13 minutes according to the logs. Writing messages for each, making sure they're applied to the correct posts, followed by deleting where necessary plus direct replies. This produced a discussion vs action ratio of 1,550 to one - but I'm not sure how this compares to historic norms. As subego says, it's been a long time.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 31, 2017, 12:33 PM
 
Now that's transparency
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 31, 2017, 01:35 PM
 
1) I honestly appreciate the explanation.

2) Am I reading it correctly? CTP was not given any direct indication from the moderators his recent behavior was considered out of line until he received a pile of infractions over a very short period.
     
besson3c
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Aug 31, 2017, 02:59 PM
 
I really don't think we are going to find an infraction system that is going to make everybody happy. My infraction was definitely arguable, but I recognize that we have to do *something* that will shape the community to the sort of overall tone we are looking for, so I'm cool with it.

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reader50
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Aug 31, 2017, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Am I reading it correctly? CTP was not given any direct indication from the moderators his recent behavior was considered out of line until he received a pile of infractions over a very short period.
True. However, he is an experienced member. Since 2014 and not counting the present ones: 10 prior infractions (69pts total), and 1 warning. Adding Shaddim, another 4 infractions (37pts) and 2 warnings. I think there are cautionary staff statements in the threads, though I believe they're more along the lines of staying on topic and less like warnings.

We really don't hand out many. The above stats: 8 infractions, 3 warnings for the past year is for the entire board. Circa one per month, or an average of maybe 1 infraction/warning per staff member per year.

The members also don't report a lot: approx 90 Reports in the past year, including reports of spam (maybe ~1/3). When people post "Reported!", they almost never do a report.
     
Laminar
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Aug 31, 2017, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Wow, you guys sure have a negative view of the way we handle things.
"Thing." Singular.

The police arrive at your door. Sir, do you realize we've clocked you speeding over 400 times in the past five years? We're taking you straight to jail!

Would you have continued to speed after receiving two tickets, knowing that a third ticket would mean jail time?
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 31, 2017, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
"Thing." Singular.

The police arrive at your door. Sir, do you realize we've clocked you speeding over 400 times in the past five years? We're taking you straight to jail!

Would you have continued to speed after receiving two tickets, knowing that a third ticket would mean jail time?
We are not talking about a 5-year span here nor is “so far I didn't get caught” a defense for speeding regularly. And yes, if you on normal days you are 12 km/h above the speed limit and on another 120 km/h above it, guess what, you might go to jail without warning.

Analogies aside, I think you are getting caught up in minutiae and losing sight of the bigger picture. My one-sentence summary accurately reflects what has happened. If you want to disagree with our decision to give Shaddim a mild temp ban, then that's fine. If you think he deserved a warning instead of a ban, that's ok. But then you should argue just that instead of focussing on the small squares while losing sight of the bigger picture in the process.
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Laminar
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Aug 31, 2017, 08:53 PM
 
I think the issue most are taking here is that it didn't appear that he was giving time to temper his recent actions.

And you initially characterized the ban as if it was totally out of your hands.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Because the sum total of points exceeded the limit, Shaddim was automatically temp banned.
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
While it's possible to rack up a bunch of points pretty quickly, and "suddenly" find yourself banned, in this case it was not "quick" at all. "Warnings" in the form of infraction reports were issued over a long enough period of time that nobody could have been taken by surprise by the eventual temporary ban.
Now you're saying that you decided he needed to be banned, so he was purposely given a sudden influx of infractions that would guarantee a ban.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 31, 2017, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think the issue most are taking here is that it didn't appear that he was giving time to temper his recent actions.
I'm not going to repeat myself here, I think we were perfectly clear on this: we could have left Shaddim off a warning but decided not to.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
And you initially characterized the ban as if it was totally out of your hands.
From the very first post I wrote that it was our deliberate decision to deal with the situation the way we did. You just steadfastly focus on the mechanics rather than the overarching issue, and seem to think that issuing a bunch of infractions at the same time is antithetical to the infraction point system. We are not slaves of the vBB infraction point system and we are capable of doing simple arithmetics, the infraction point system is just a tool and not an impartial arbiter — that's us.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Now you're saying that you decided he needed to be banned, so he was purposely given a sudden influx of infractions that would guarantee a ban.
I've been consistently writing just that and is what I concisely laid down in my third post in this thread (my second one was tangential, so it was my second post on Shaddim's temp ban).

I have said all I can say on the subject matter.
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subego  (op)
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Sep 1, 2017, 04:39 AM
 
The mods can run the forum however they want. It's their party.

The mods don't keep the rules a stationary target. That's fine. Both because the mods can do whatever they want, and because forums evolve. There's no criticism here.

The criticism is of the claim the target really is stationary, and it's our fault as users for not noticing.

Maybe my powers of observation are completely broken, but it's been more freewheeling around here. If the mods want to put the brakes on this, great.

I say that with no snark. If I enjoyed slapfights I'd get into them. I'd much prefer they'd stop.

The passengers applaud turning the boat around. They arch their eyebrow at the claim the boat was moving in that direction the whole time.
( Last edited by subego; Sep 1, 2017 at 05:14 AM. )
     
And.reg
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Sep 1, 2017, 07:38 AM
 
From what I've seen on many popular internet forums, Mods get as much respect as county officials. Some who look deep into the issue with the crowd and come up with balanced guidelines and incorporate feedback get a little more positive aura than officials who setup the rules and then enforce them. Heck, I was a mod on a big forum (not a Mac site, but trust me the site got heavy traffic) back in the day, and no matter what I did, or didn't do, someone had a complaint. Either way, cyclical questioning is not really going to offset their reputation, and when done in public, rather than PM, kindles more noise.
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ghporter
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Sep 2, 2017, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think the issue most are taking here is that it didn't appear that he was giving time to temper his recent actions.
<snip>
Now you're saying that you decided he needed to be banned, so he was purposely given a sudden influx of infractions that would guarantee a ban.
The infractions didn't all pile up at once, and there was plenty of time for him to see that his behavior was unacceptable. Your perception in a Monday morning quarterback role isn't giving us credit for trying to deescalate things without resorting to heavy handed actions.

We decided that his behavior warranted infractions, NOT that "he needed to be banned." We discussed what types of infractions, and did not conspire to pile on tons of them to get him banned. We could have just banned him totally, but that is not how we do things, and I think most of the folks who have been around a while know that.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 2, 2017, 05:28 PM
 
The following question was asked:

"Am I reading it correctly? CTP was not given any direct indication from the moderators his recent behavior was considered out of line until he received a pile of infractions over a very short period."

The reply was this reading was "true".

There is no Monday morning quarterbacking going on. We are operating on the information we've been given, and it is not consistent.
     
Chongo
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Sep 2, 2017, 10:14 PM
 
Intended effect or not, Shaddim has shaken the dust off his virtual feet.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego  (op)
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Sep 3, 2017, 02:07 PM
 
I obviously can't speak to anyone's intent, but neither can I call it an unexpected result.
     
sek929
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Sep 5, 2017, 07:42 PM
 
A one-week temp ban is enough to make him leave forever? Bit dramatic ya think?
     
Chongo
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Sep 5, 2017, 07:49 PM
 
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
sek929
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Sep 5, 2017, 08:08 PM
 
You reap what you sow. Most take a ban in stride and use it as an opportunity to self evaluate and change the way they behave. I guess he wasn't interested in either.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 6, 2017, 09:57 AM
 
What ever will we do with less disingenuous arguments and name calling in the PL?
     
Laminar
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Sep 6, 2017, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by oreocookie View Post
i've been consistently writing just that and is what i concisely laid down in my third post in this thread (my second one was tangential, so it was my second post on shaddim's temp ban).
I know but then Glenn comes in and completely disagrees with you again.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
the infractions didn't all pile up at once, and there was plenty of time for him to see that his behavior was unacceptable.
     
Chongo
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Sep 6, 2017, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What ever will we do with less disingenuous arguments and name calling in the PL?
Be careful, he may come back.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 6, 2017, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Be careful, he may come back.
And?
     
besson3c
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Sep 6, 2017, 10:30 PM
 
Hey mods, what really happened to Abe?
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 8, 2017, 11:12 AM
 
You didn't hear it from me, but a little bird said he was fitted for cement shoes.
     
Snow-i
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Sep 8, 2017, 07:17 PM
 
I don't understand the point of using any kind of system when the # of active members in the forbidden city can be counted on two hands. Infractions? Really? Like what's the point? That system was for managing hundreds and thousands of users. Not 8.

This place has been dead for years. Those few of us who are still around are here for each other, and ya'll should be the stewards of our community not some police force locking people up arbitrarily. We're quite capable of managing ourselves. We literally just lost 12.5% of the PWL, and for what? What did these infractions accomplish?

Not that I defend the behavior seen from some of those in the PWL - emotions can run high. But it really just seems juvenile, petty, and quite frankly silly at this stage in the game. Since we've all been posting intimately for quite a few years now, how could we not address any issues directly and without bouncing a large percentage of our userbase?

As for how much time ya'll spent deliberating - did anyone think to reach out to CTP directly about it? Or were these long and labouious discussions ex parte? A simple "hey dude cool it" would likely have accomplished your goals far better than a ban would have.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 8, 2017, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
We're quite capable of managing ourselves.
Its not like PL members haven't told Shaddim about the bullshit he's pulling for the past year or so. What's his motivation to improve his behavior? Participants recourse if he doesn't?
     
Snow-i
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Sep 8, 2017, 08:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Its not like PL members haven't told Shaddim about the bullshit he's pulling for the past year or so. What's his motivation to improve his behavior? Participants recourse if he doesn't?
Why does his behavior need to "improve"? Was it dissuading new members from joining the discussions? Should we figure out how to improve the behavior of the other 3-4 members posting the same kinds of constant bullshit? What is the point?

It's quite obvious the intent of this was the ban, but veiled inside of a long disused system in order to give all 7 of us left some feeling like it was a procedural inevitability. I'm just not sure who the dog and pony show is for, because it certainly isn't fooling anyone considering half of the remaining PWL has posted in this thread. Dude's been posting here for decades.
     
besson3c
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Sep 9, 2017, 04:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Why does his behavior need to "improve"? Was it dissuading new members from joining the discussions? Should we figure out how to improve the behavior of the other 3-4 members posting the same kinds of constant bullshit? What is the point?

It's quite obvious the intent of this was the ban, but veiled inside of a long disused system in order to give all 7 of us left some feeling like it was a procedural inevitability. I'm just not sure who the dog and pony show is for, because it certainly isn't fooling anyone considering half of the remaining PWL has posted in this thread. Dude's been posting here for decades.

I agree.

I found his style of toying with people, playing devil's advocate, always needing to be right, moving goalposts, etc. to be extremely annoying, but I know you guys find me annoying at times too (I'm pretty sure Final Dakar hates my guts), and I find Badkosh's and Chongo's whole global warming denial schtick and knee-jerking vilification of all things liberal annoying too.

However, tolerating each other and our annoying things we have going on is necessary for these sorts of discussions. This can be via the ignore feature, or just learning what battles are worth waging. I mean, nobody is going to make Badkosh an Obama lover or me to decide that scientists are not to be trusted. I'm still working on learning this, I've wasted a ton of time having it out with people here.

We also can't transform this place to be ideal for everybody by obsessing over the rules.
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 9, 2017, 06:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Why does his behavior need to "improve"? Was it dissuading new members from joining the discussions? Should we figure out how to improve the behavior of the other 3-4 members posting the same kinds of constant bullshit? What is the point?
Ah, so "We're quite capable of managing ourselves" was a red herring, and what you're really saying is you don't see a problem with his behavior.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
It's quite obvious the intent of this was the ban, but veiled inside of a long disused system in order to give all 7 of us left some feeling like it was a procedural inevitability. I'm just not sure who the dog and pony show is for, because it certainly isn't fooling anyone considering half of the remaining PWL has posted in this thread.
So what do you think the point of it was?


Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Dude's been posting here for decades.
This is utterly irrelevant.
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 11, 2017, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
A simple "hey dude cool it" would likely have accomplished your goals far better than a ban would have.
Not to my experience, no.
     
ghporter
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Sep 11, 2017, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I know but then Glenn comes in and completely disagrees with you again.
I did not disagree. My statement was more general, and did not address Oreo's specific interactions with Capn. There were warnings and messages and clear information that his behavior was not acceptable. Oreo's specific interactions with him were at the point at which Capn was accelerating and ramping up how unacceptable his posting was, after other staff members had tried to get him to tone things down.

Come on, folks. We ARE pretty laid back about moderating discussions here, even in the PWL. And for the most part, members take our less severe guidance (nudges like PMs that aren't part of the infraction system, etc.) and rein themselves back. This was not one of those situations. It was protracted and extreme. Capn demonstrated a pattern of unacceptable behavior and he seemed to ignore staff members' actions to deescalate and moderate his behavior.

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OreoCookie
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Sep 11, 2017, 11:04 PM
 
And let me add that the number of active members is by no means an argument that we should accept bad behavior for the fear of losing members. Doing what you think is right should not be contingent on expedience. I think humanity is better off without posts that were generated in response to trolling. Plus, a lot of people have left the PL in particular because of the prevalent lack of civility.
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Snow-i
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Sep 13, 2017, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Ah, so "We're quite capable of managing ourselves" was a red herring, and what you're really saying is you don't see a problem with his behavior.
We are quite capable. Do you disagree?

I do see problems with his behavior, and I see problems with other people's behavior. What is the goal of this ban? For the PWL to become anything other than what it's been for the last 10 years? State the objective. RIght the now the objective seems to be more self centered about what you want it to look like and less "for the good of the [what little is left of the] community".

So what do you think the point of it was?
Honestly? An axe to grind. You can tell by the vain attempt to give it some sort of legitimacy by using the infraction system as opposed to just being direct and honest about the intentions.

This is utterly irrelevant.
I guess all those new members will start flocking in now that he's gone than, eh?
     
Snow-i
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Sep 13, 2017, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Not to my experience, no.
Did you try?
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 13, 2017, 01:21 PM
 
I said my experience.

That means I tried, and was blown off, ignored, etc.
     
Snow-i
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Sep 13, 2017, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
And let me add that the number of active members is by no means an argument that we should accept bad behavior for the fear of losing members. Doing what you think is right should not be contingent on expedience. I think humanity is better off without posts that were generated in response to trolling. Plus, a lot of people have left the PL in particular because of the prevalent lack of civility.
Yes, better to have a perfect community with no members than the one that actually exists on the forums. There's a practical reality here that you are not accounting for which dominates the participation in what's left of the forums.

Careful here - what's best for humanity is not necessarily what's best for our community, and you're not going to save the world by targeting members of the PWL you don't like and justifying it by singling out specific members then hiding behind "rules" that you don't apply to anyone but your target. If you were really interested in not accepting bad behavior in the PWL, you need about another 3-5 bans to be true to your stated objective.
     
Snow-i
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Sep 13, 2017, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I said my experience.

That means I tried, and was blown off, ignored, etc.
In this instance? Or in the past?
     
Snow-i
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Sep 13, 2017, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I did not disagree. My statement was more general, and did not address Oreo's specific interactions with Capn. There were warnings and messages and clear information that his behavior was not acceptable. Oreo's specific interactions with him were at the point at which Capn was accelerating and ramping up how unacceptable his posting was, after other staff members had tried to get him to tone things down.

Come on, folks. We ARE pretty laid back about moderating discussions here, even in the PWL. And for the most part, members take our less severe guidance (nudges like PMs that aren't part of the infraction system, etc.) and rein themselves back. This was not one of those situations. It was protracted and extreme. Capn demonstrated a pattern of unacceptable behavior and he seemed to ignore staff members' actions to deescalate and moderate his behavior.
This is a far more reasonable explanation. Did the infractions come all at once or as the unacceptable posts came in?
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 13, 2017, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
In this instance? Or in the past?
Yes, yer honor.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 13, 2017, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Yes, better to have a perfect community with no members than the one that actually exists on the forums. There's a practical reality here that you are not accounting for which dominates the participation in what's left of the forums.
I don't think anyone would describe the PL as a “perfect” community. Nor do I agree that we have to accept a member who is trolling and happens to post a lot.
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
… and you're not going to save the world by targeting members of the PWL you don't like and justifying it by singling out specific members then hiding behind "rules" that you don't apply to anyone but your target. If you were really interested in not accepting bad behavior in the PWL, you need about another 3-5 bans to be true to your stated objective.
We do not base our decisions on whether or not we like or agree with somebody, but by how they carry themselves in our forums. Shaddim was not unfairly “singled out” for his opinions. Can you think of a reason where you were chastised by a staff member outside of the PL because of the political opinions you hold? This insinuation comes up every single time someone gets banned for his behavior in the PL, even when half of the active mods were of the same political stripe as the member in question. If you troll other members for fun, if you regularly insult other members, then you shouldn't be surprised if your behavior has repercussions.

Regarding “3-5 others do it, too”: if you think other members's posts are inappropriate, report them. In any case, it is not an argument for letting bad behavior slide.
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The Final Dakar
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Sep 13, 2017, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
We are quite capable. Do you disagree?
Yes. What is it you think could be done, realistically?

I guess all those new members will start flocking in now that he's gone than, eh?
This is a hilarious straw man. Punishing bad behavior doesn't hinge on membership numbers.
     
ghporter
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Sep 13, 2017, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
This is a far more reasonable explanation. Did the infractions come all at once or as the unacceptable posts came in?
Once a member's specific post has an infraction, we don't add more to that post. The unacceptable posts not only continued, but from my point of view they accelerated. So each new, unacceptable post earned Capn more infractions.

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Cap'n Tightpants
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Sep 14, 2017, 03:14 AM
 
Okay, now that I'm back from running all over the damned storm-torn country and had a good night's sleep, let's talk about this.

Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I said my experience.

That means I tried, and was blown off, ignored, etc.
Are you lying? Because I've received zero PMs from you (actually, there was one back around 2005, I think it was regarding cats) or anyone, until the infractions piled in all at once, resulting in the ban. Or are you talking about when you puffed-up your chest and tried to use mod "authority" to push me around in a basic political conversation? Because I don't remember any public warnings, either. Feel free to post that warning here, I gladly wave my privacy rights w/ you regarding PMs, just to get to the bottom of this.

Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
In this instance? Or in the past?
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Yes, yer honor.
Evidence?
( Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Sep 14, 2017 at 04:26 AM. )
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