[Scotlad82]

I am a windows user by force. My work uses windows, when I was at university they used windows at college they used windows. My friends use windows. What’s wrong with what I have just said...windows were mentioned too many times and in too many different places? Microsoft has had the market for too long now. I think its high time use consumers got a choice. Mr Joe Bloggs is none the wiser about computers the net and threat that PCs have from viruses and spy-ware etc. It's now unsafe to use a pc when you open the box. Mac OS is safe the moment you switch it on. It's pathetic what windows users need to do with weekly-recommended scans of your computer. I think that Apple should allow their OS to be run on non-apple computers. Now before you light your torches and seek me out think of the benefits that it would bring to apple, the market and to you the user.

- More choice of applications on the market for computer users. Software companies would have to cater for an increasing market.

- Apple's Brand would be more recognised than it's current status.

- Using your non apple computer wont be a pain anymore

- Users wouldn't have to worry about spy/mal/ad-ware getting into their computers.

- Apple would make more money, as they would need to licence their system to third party manufacturers.

- More people would buy Mac OS as a first choice

- The explosion of Apple I-pods has made people aware of a choice

- When buying a computer that would have Mac OS on it, then they could specify what they wanted in it.

- It would give Bill Gates well-deserved punch on the face and drop in his bank balance.

- For too long Windows users have had to suffer, "This program has committed an illegal operation...it will now shut down” OS X doesn't crash.

- Apple announced it would use Intel chips next year. This gives apple a chance to seize a market that they so need to dent.

- People should have the same choice as they have in buying a car/telephone company/broadband provider etc.

- Why should consumers have to purchase a whole new computer when they could install Mac OS and run it on their existing computer?

I know most of you in here would be saying...dumb ass windows user...what does he know...like it's going to happen. Yeah your right, I don’t know enough about Macs now, however grew up using one and was forced to use windows in my late teen years.

The EU forced Microsoft to offer alternative music programs on windows. I think they should go one further and force Apple to licence Mac OS to Non Apple computers like Dell/HP/Compaq etc. When someone buys their computer the sales man should give them a choice on what OS they want. Steve Jobs has made it clear they wont allow their OS to be written for non-apple computers. Maybe he would if he knew the amount of people who love their computers but hate windows? Oh and rumours of Windows Vista say that its a let down and nowhere near tiger.

·Do you think we should have a choice in our OS?
·Do you think Microsoft have had the market for too long?
·Does Apple think they are going to survive on the I-pod forever?
·Who out there thinks it would only be a good thing if Apple went mainstream?
·Could Apple develop a program to allow users to transfer their windows files (music/word docs/pictures etc) from Windows on to another OS installed on their computer (from one OS to another)?

The only loser in this one would be Microsoft. Whereas Apple, PC manufacturers and consumers would win.

Let me know what you think,

Regards

Scotlad

[chabig]

I think that long-term, Apple will almost certainly open the OS to all hardware. For the past several years, Apple has been out-planning, out-innovating, and out-implementing Microsoft. The fact that OS X has been running on Intel for 5 years gives you an idea about how far out they're looking. I believe Apple knows exactly what they're plans are for at least the next five years. And I'm sure that they'd like to grow their market share, and that they recognize the potential. But short term they'll need to keep it closed until the Intel-based Macs can become solid.

Chris

[PacHead]

No, Apple should not allow their OS to be installed on non Apple hardware. Apple is doing just fine as it is, I don't want the windoze user base to use the Apple OS.

[JoshuaZ]

Apple makes its money from Hardware. I think they tried this already, and it didn`t work out so well. Blah.

[bad_quote]

The majority is stupid. Let them have their inferior crappy OS. I'd rather have a company that caters to more intelligent people (IGNORING THE DAMN ONE BUTTON MOUSE!!)

[teney7]

Apple has done well for 20 years, why change now?

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by bad_quote

The majority is stupid. Let them have their inferior crappy OS. I'd rather have a company that caters to more intelligent people (IGNORING THE DAMN ONE BUTTON MOUSE!!)

Dude, just use a different mouse.

My parents, both smart people, have issues with two buttons. A lot of people do. Get over it.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

Yes. If they want to kill the Mac.

[Warung]

Hell no!

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by teney7

Apple has done well for 20 years, who change now?

Are you telling everyone that Sculley did a wonderful job at Apple? If it weren't for Amelio's smart decision to acquire NeXT and bring Jobs back into the fold, do you think there would still be a Mac today?

[Randman]

No. Apple is a computer company. The OS is there to sell the computers just like the iTMS is there to sell iPods.

[Athens]

Yes they should.

[Y3a]

MS doesn't make computers, just lousy software. Allowing the PC makers a better choice of OS makes the number of problems with OS/hardware compatibility go away. More secure OS is what the business/Gov't need anyway. Sorry if all the MCSE types have to learn something other than MS windows.

[Rob van dam]

well i hope so.No more dealing with applecare

[Scotlad82]

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I agree with some of you on what your saying, however I think Dell are sweet talking apple when they new Intel Macs come out. Maybe its not that far in the future. Apple does make a lot more money from hardware, however that is not a viable long-term solution to solve the problems at apple. There is more profit expanding their market and expanding into operating systems rather than releasing a new Mac every so many months. Was it not apple that said, "Think different"? On this forum how many of you have the same computer, with the same keyboard, with the same components? Surely you guys would like more power from your computer, more choice, and more variety? I am not saying for once that apples hardware is not good, far from it. I think it’s a cut above the rest. However there is always a better one that comes out soon after. I am not an IT buff; I never have and won’t be. I just think the market should be able to choose what they want from their computer at time of purchase, why can't they have Mac OS pre installed on their dell desktop? Am pretty much anti windows and hate using my pc for that reason. I am going to buy a new Mac in the near future. I just when I do, I should also get the choice of what OS I get on the hardware at time of purchase.

[Chris O'Brien]

Scotlad, two things:

• It's iPod, not I-pod (pet hate of mine, sorry).
• You can run a flavour of Linux or BSD on your PC if you hate Windows that much. Not quite as good as OS X, but still better than Windows, IMO.

[Kerrigan]

Currently Apple and Michael Jackson are developing OS 11 which will be able to run both on Macs and on Compaqs.

[Athens]

More OS X users, more OS X development in software and hardware more demand for OS X and Macs. Why dosent every one buy only 500.00 PC? because some want quality and style. Apple can still sell Macs and OS X, they just have to price it right and limit how it can be sold. For example a deal with Dell, OS X can only be installed on high end Desktops, not low end ones.

[Eriamjh]

For Apple to sell the MacOS for PCs, it would have to develop a business model that can make it more money selling OSes than hardware. It would have to dump the hardware side of its business to make it work. They would save a bunch on HW development, but would the market be big enough for it to sustain? Would people just steal it?

If Apple sold enough iPods and such to do this, it might be viable. If Apple saw enough market potential, it might try it, but only after it decided to drop selling Macs.

I say, "No, they shouldn't. If they did, it wouldn't happen for at least five years".

Ask again after that.

[Scotlad82]

I hear about quality and style, but do you think a serious computer user is concerned if their PC matches their carpets and curtains? No, as for dell being a low end pc, I have a dell and I would say its up for a good fight. The OS thats installed on it raises an eye brow. I am gonna buy a Mac soon though. It would need to be pratical, I dont think an eMac or iMac would be pratical for me to use. Thats just my preference when using a computer. I spent alot more than £500.00 on my computer and the only complaints I have with it is the OS and amount of times I need to report an error. The hardware is pretty reliable and there has never been one issue with it. Mac's are nice to look at, however I would hardly call a Mac fashionable...its a computer, its dated abotu 6 months after you open it, this applies to PCs also. You have missed what I was trying to say. I think Mac OS should be available for you to have installed on your computer at time of purchase. Its alot harder to buy a Mac where I live, the shops force windows down your throats and make you out to be stupid as you would like to buy a Mac. There is a version of MacOSx floating around online. I was going to download it but am not going to take that risk. Its only a matter of time it makes its way on to a CD and had MACOS X for pentium/athlon users. Then Bill gates will be writing his will and Apple rules the world!!!!

[Y3a]

An advertising idea:

Windows=Virus magnet & Buggy

Mac OS X=NO Viruses, Almost bugless

Think of the downtime you'd be missing and the productivity gains you'd get!

[Scotlad82]

Y3a, if only apple would do the same on TV. Where I work the company brought in HP machines with XP....what a mistake they made, but hey am leaving them soon for other reasons. You know when our computers go down at work not through viruses, its cause XP is mince! I have lost count the amount of times I have had to move desks cause the computer I use has a problem with it.

[analogika]

They've been there, done that, and it VERY nearly killed them.

[tooki]

Your whole premise is that Apple "has a problem". But that's mistaken. Apple's doing better than ever, precisely because of its role as a high-end niche player.

Furthermore, a significant reason that Macs work well is that the OS is tailored to a small number of known hardware configurations. If opened to run on any PC hardware (which is still dependent on third parties to write drivers), the number of possible configurations becomes unlimited, significantly increasing the occurrence of incompatibilities.

tooki

[Scotlad82]

My argument is not the problem of apple. The market is not fair. Microsoft has for too long got the majority of it and allowing crap versions of windows to be sold. I think people should be able to have choice in their computer. Of course Mac OSX might not work with every 3rd party hardware, neither does XP. However if Apple was going to go into a more diverse market then 3rd party hardware companies would be more than able to write drivers that would make their hardware compatible with MAC OS. Open up your computer, look inside, and see most of the components that’s inside them, they are probably Pc/Mac compatible. All I am saying is let people have a choice in the OS they run on their computer.

I have sent an email to the EU consumer council to look at this issue. Steve Jobs was copied in as well. I would like to know what the EU thought of the situation. Since they kicked Bill Gates in the unmentionables and forced him to put itunes on windows. The EU has forced many companies of offer choice. The UK was forced to de-regulate the energy market allowing for consumers to choose their utility provider. Surely in the 21st century you should be able to choose what OS you run without having to purchase a new computer?

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Dude, just use a different mouse.

My parents, both smart people, have issues with two buttons. A lot of people do. Get over it.

I do. I'm just saying it seems like apple caters to the more intelligent crowd, with the exception of the stupid one button mouse.

[ghporter]

I think in the medium-term (the first five years of the new Intel-based Macs) that Apple should maintain a tight control over what hardware the OS will run on. Not only because of the potential for very bad incompatibilities, as tooki mentioned, but because they need to maintain the Mac line as separate from everything else. External design aside, the INTERNAL design of Macs-machines that "just work"-is vital to the branding process.

After that, there's no telling what's going to happen in either hardware or software, so it may as well be a new universe.

I'd personally like to be able to run Tiger (or higher) on some of the PC hardware I already have, but as has been pointed out, there are a number of good Linux distributions that give me the Unix-like underpinnings and superior interface that are halmarks of OS X, so I can certainly live with that.

[James L]

I think the OP should retitle this thread "Apple should allow Mac OS on Non Apple Computers".

It is clearly obvious that, while 90% of more of us think this would be a horrible idea, he is pretty set in his opinion.

Apple is in a great financial position. Apple makes most of that money from hardware. Apple put out the OS before for 3rd party use, and it was a tragic failure (and also one of the first things SJ stopped when he came back into the fold).

The stability of the MacOS is in part due to the tight control, and integration, between the hardware and software. Apple builds its boxes from the ground up to ensure flawless performance (well.... nothing is flawless).

If people want to use OSX, buy a Mac. Simple, really!

[Scotlad82]

You all think that it would be a horrible idea since you are all Mac users and will not be affected. Steve Jobs is a creative person, he is not a good business man though. I totally agree with ghporters comments. Give it 5 years and who knows. However James, people can not afford to continue to purchase new machines every 2 to 3 years to keep up to date. Maybe am not in such a strong financial position where I can afford to purchase a new macintosh when Jobs & co decide they would like to release a new Mac. My arguement has been about choice for us, the consumer. The guys who make it possible for these companies to operate have to realise that are newer, bigger, faster computers the way forward or is the future of operating systems reliant on cross multi-platform?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by bad_quote

I do. I'm just saying it seems like apple caters to the more intelligent crowd, with the exception of the stupid one button mouse.

Ah, the mouse.

No, they actually cater to the intelligent crowd in that they fully support any generic multi-button mouse you might want to hook up.

Making the single-button mouse the default (even the Mighty Mouse defaults to a single button, though it's a four-button mouse by design) ensures that developers MUST assume that the normal user has only that one button, which means that ALL important options and choices must be available via the menu bar.

In effect, it makes contextual menus non-essential, reducing them to what they should be: shortcuts.


Contrast with Windows, where idiotic context-menu-exclusive choices are rampant, requiring users to search for that one hidden option that will actually perform basic functionality, even though there is a perfectly good, almost empty menu bar at the top of the window. (PowerDVD comes to mind as just one example of myriads.)

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by PacHead

No, Apple should not allow their OS to be installed on non Apple hardware. Apple is doing just fine as it is, I don't want the windoze user base to use the Apple OS.

If they're running MacOS, how would they be Windows users?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by analogika

Contrast with Windows, where idiotic context-menu-exclusive choices are rampant, requiring users to search for that one hidden option that will actually perform basic functionality, even though there is a perfectly good, almost empty menu bar at the top of the window. (PowerDVD comes to mind as just one example of myriads.)

Excellent point! I have spent years doing a lot of heavy duty document creation on Windows machines, and have stuck with the handfull of shortcuts and menu paths I've learned to get things done, even though there are apparently thousands of ways to do all of those functions I use. From a software engineering perspective, that's not a good thing; the more ways you have to get to some particular piece of code, the more ways you have of getting things buggered up. Having one primary way, a context menu path, and perhaps ONE keyboard shortcut is much better in terms of minimizing little-used code (and potential dead ends and goobered up function calls). On a Mac, I use the menu, choose the function I want, and I get the job done.

[goMac]

Yes, they should. After the iPod starts to lose it's luster Mac OS X will be Apple's second halo product. People who know what they are doing could install Mac OS X on their PC's, and eventually switch to Apple hardware.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Scotlad82

However James, people can not afford to continue to purchase new machines every 2 to 3 years to keep up to date. Maybe am not in such a strong financial position where I can afford to purchase a new macintosh when Jobs & co decide they would like to release a new Mac. My arguement has been about choice for us, the consumer. The guys who make it possible for these companies to operate have to realise that are newer, bigger, faster computers the way forward or is the future of operating systems reliant on cross multi-platform?

Just because you want something doesn't mean that it should be done... no matter how hard you close your eyes, click your heels, and pray for it.


With regards to your theory on business, and how people cannot afford to buy a new machine every few years, two points:

The first Mac came out in 1984... 21 years ago. The points in Apple's history where they have been the most financially successful have been when the OS was only on Apple's hardware. The times when Apple has been at its worst off financially have included the time when they licensed out their OS for 3rd party machines. It was a failure.

Second point: One of the key elements to owning a Mac is the fact that you will get a significantly longer life, with higher resale value, out of a Mac then a PC. I have used Macs since 1986, and consistently have my machines for several years longer than any PC I have ever owned. There are people on this forum who are running the latest builds of OSX on old, old, machines.


Finally, you said you want choice as a consumer. You have it.... buy a Mac, or buy a PC and install one of the commercially available operating systems.

[driven]

I agree with James L's second point. I still have an iMac from 2000 running OS X. What can I do with a nearly 6 year old Intel computer?

[G Barnett]

Originally Posted by driven

I agree with James L's second point. I still have an iMac from 2000 running OS X. What can I do with a nearly 6 year old Intel computer?

You mean "what can I do with a nearly 6 year old Intel computer that doesn't involve high explosives and whipped cream," right?



G Barnett

[driven]

Originally Posted by G Barnett

You mean "what can I do with a nearly 6 year old Intel computer that doesn't involve high explosives and whipped cream," right?



G Barnett

Sweeet .......

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Scotlad82

1. My argument is not the problem of apple. The market is not fair. Microsoft has for too long got the majority of it and allowing crap versions of windows to be sold. I think people should be able to have choice in their computer. Of course Mac OSX might not work with every 3rd party hardware, neither does XP. However if Apple was going to go into a more diverse market then 3rd party hardware companies would be more than able to write drivers that would make their hardware compatible with MAC OS. Open up your computer, look inside, and see most of the components that’s inside them, they are probably Pc/Mac compatible. All I am saying is let people have a choice in the OS they run on their computer.

2. I have sent an email to the EU consumer council to look at this issue. Steve Jobs was copied in as well. I would like to know what the EU thought of the situation. Since they kicked Bill Gates in the unmentionables and forced him to put itunes on windows. The EU has forced many companies of offer choice. The UK was forced to de-regulate the energy market allowing for consumers to choose their utility provider. Surely in the 21st century you should be able to choose what OS you run without having to purchase a new computer?

1. Your logic is flawed. Yes, many components in a Mac (RAM, storage devices, GPUs) also are available on PCs. The reverse, however, is not true: there are many devices that exist for PC only. Furthermore, these are not the only components: disk interfaces, and above all motherboard chipsets vary wildly, and require very tight support in the OS. The fact is that opening up Mac OS to a wider range of hardware would have a destabilizing effect to some degree.

Also, I guess you weren't around when NeXTstep and OpenStep were available on Intel hardware? Yeah, NeXT stopped selling its own machines and instead just sold the OS to run on standard 486 PCs. It ran well -- on a very limited set of hardware. Despite the fact that it ran on commodity hardware, component developers did not flock to NeXT and write drivers for it. Driver support began and remained sparse.

Further evidence that hardware developers will not jump on the opportunity to write drivers is Linux: the hardware developers almost never write Linux drivers for their devices. (Almost all device drivers on Linux have been reverse-engineered, a time consuming and error-prone process.)

The fact is, most hardware developers simply want to sell to the biggest market, and that's Windows, and that won't change any time soon, regardless of whether Mac OS runs on non-Apple hardware or not.

2. Electricity is a commodity (every product is the same, regardless of vendor); operating systems are not equivalent. Every watt-hour of electricity is identical, whether it be made from burning coal, gas, nuclear, or hydroelectric. Operating systems are not interchangeable, each one is a distinct product to meet different needs. I don't see any reason why Apple should be forced to undermine its own business and sell its OS for other machines. Similarly, I don't see any reason why MS shouldn't be allowed to make an OS that runs only on MS-branded machines. MS just hasn't chosen to do so, and that's fine, too.



As for your claims of "consumer choice" -- you HAVE that consumer choice now. You can buy a Wintel machine, or you can buy a Mac.

tooki

[milhous]

if the move were ever made to offer mac os x on non-apple computers, apple would at the very least have to force the other computer manufacturers to go through a rigid and strict hardware validation process. the last thing you need is to have a bunch of people running os x on crappy machines like hp pavilions and compaq presarios that crash all the time, and then blame apple for the bad experience for which they're not responsible for.

for apple to lose such goodwill even when it's of no fault of their own would be detrimental.

The EU forcing Apple to license to other manufacturers? You've got to be kidding me. That's when Apple pulls out of the EMEA market completely.

[tooki]

Yep. Total user experience is a HUGE key component to the value of the Mac. Said total experience requires a high level of control over the hardware environment.

tooki

[ReggieX]

Originally Posted by Scotlad82

I am a windows user by force. My work uses windows, when I was at university they used windows at college they used windows. My friends use windows.

My work uses Windows, and a lot of my friends use Windows. It certainly doesn't mean I have to.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by tooki

Yep. Total user experience is a HUGE key component to the value of the Mac. Said total experience requires a high level of control over the hardware environment.

tooki

Of course the iPod/Windows integration is not top notch. But what that does is drive people to the Mac/iPod integration. In the same way the more loose PC/OS X integration could drive people to the Mac/OS X integration.

[Scotlad82]

I think I have put the cat amongst the pigeons haven't I? I agree with what you are saying. Apple can pull out of the EU market should it ever happen, which we all know wont, but Apple are not that dumb to pull out of a market with a population of 330 million. I agree with the hardware issues, yeah there would be some, but its not rocket science to write drivers/software for these components? I personally dont think it would bring down the performance of MacOS and why you concerned it should work fine on an apple mac. This debate could go on and on, there is not a right or wrong answer. Apple will continue to do apple OS, however we all know there is a version of MACOS X for the pc floating around online. It shown to be very popular. I think Apple would be mad not to branch out into the windows market. Its a ruthless market and one thats been dominated for too long by some geek who has enough money to give each person in the world £7 or is it $7? Well am going to end it here. Yous can continue this one, I need to do overtime if I want a new apple mac for xmas.

[tooki]

No, writing drivers isn't rocket science, but it costs lots of money, and requires cooperation from the hardware developer. Many of them are committed to being MS-only.

As for "branching out" -- experience has shown that it would first cannibalize Apple's own market. Apple makes money selling hardware, not Mac OS, so it's in Apple's best interests to make Mac OS a driver for Apple hardware sales.

tooki

[mdc]

see? the final sentence of your, one long paragraph, ". . . I need to do overtime if I want an new apple mac for xmas."

you made the choice. the choice was out there for you to make. you want a mac, and you want mac os. so you made the choice to go buy one.

everyone has said choice. do they want a pc running windows, or do they want a mac running mac os. it's not a difficult decision, not everyone knows the answers for both sides, not everyone knows about both sides, but the knowledge is out there for people. if they want to make the decision they can.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by tooki

No, writing drivers isn't rocket science, but it costs lots of money, and requires cooperation from the hardware developer. Many of them are committed to being MS-only.

As for "branching out" -- experience has shown that it would first cannibalize Apple's own market. Apple makes money selling hardware, not Mac OS, so it's in Apple's best interests to make Mac OS a driver for Apple hardware sales.

tooki

Well, a little birdie told me that Mac OS X supports everything on a machine surprisingly like the PC on my desk, which is made up of very odd components.

What a lot of Mac people don't know is the PC world is very standardized these days. You only have two major kinds of audio protocols (aside from Soundblaster, but most people have built in audio these days). Both the Radeon and GeForce cards have universal drivers, motherboards have standard BIOS's, there are standard chipsets on boards to control I/O. I/O PCI cards have standards. The only things really not standardized is RAID... an.... ummmm... RAID?

Honestly judging from reports everyone's and their grandmother's PC's seem to work great with Mac OS X. People have even put together unofficial drivers for NVidia cards for Mac OS X x86 (graphics cards are the only thing that don't work yet, and even then they will still display an image, just no acceleration).

[driven]

Originally Posted by tooki

As for your claims of "consumer choice" -- you HAVE that consumer choice now. You can buy a Wintel machine, or you can buy a Mac.

tooki

I want a Ford with a Chevy motor.

[Scotlad82]

If people are gonna buy new computers soon as they are sick of XP. All am saying is a Mac OS that will run on an intel machine would allow apple to attract so many more customers. Then when they decide to buy a whole new computer they will be more open to the idea of a new computer. Who is to say that if apple did write an OS for non apple computers it would be Mac OS x, they might want to start them on a different version that is similar to tiger but written for a non apple computer? Let's face it who would rather spend £100 on a new OS than pay £800 for a new computer? The costs of making a computer are higher than making an OS. But there is still a profit there. Apple could also test it on a Dell who are keen to get MacOS. If it take 30 people to purchase an OS to make up the cost of one Imac then yes apple would be loose money. I am not saying apple discontinue their lines of computers I am saying market expansion and market penetration. Apple could make a fortune if they did this and surely the PC companies would be interested if there was a demand. Yous are being biased as you are Mac Users. Imagine a world were viruses on the net are a thing of the past, where your kids arent being subjected to pop up ads to nasty websites. The Macintosh is the way forward for the net and the user. People are going to walk with their feet, dont let microsoft make anymore money let apple make it with a universal OS. I know what you are going to say, "if they want a mac then they can buy one" Yeah they can but as I have been reminded Mac OS wont run on PCs due to compatibility, true, but if a PC Mac OS was launched then that problem wouldnt affect mac os users would it?

[teszeract]

Of course they should. With limited support, naturally.

[Scotlad82]

well gomac I guess your post has shut them all up.