[analogika]

Exactly.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Are you trying to say that you give that excess food to the starving?

I believe we do. That is when we aren't stymied by OBL backed warlords in Somalia and made sitting ducks by a UN contingency who (INTENTIONALLY???) left our Rangers sitting in the streets of Mogadishu.

Yes, I believe we also try to sell some of the excess food our hard working and technologically advanced farmers produce, when their entire crop isn't deystroyed by natural disasters and weather extremes.

And let's not get started on the Oil For Food debacle.

And PLEASE don't remind us of the other BILLIONS of dollars in aid we give away every year to different peoples and causes and nations around the world.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

No man had gone into space before Gargarin.

Maybe his flight deserves an honorable mention or a Bronze medal for being the first. But the greatest of all time????

Hardly.

BTW, we are recognizing the courage of every astronaut who volunteers to go into space. There are no guarantees. From Gagarin to the latest Shuttle 'nauts the danger is and has always been only a blink away.

Let's be clear we are measuring the greatness of the particular mission (identified by the crews names in some cases) and NOT the men or women manning the missions. So, even though the Moon landings are greater than the Gagarin flight, Yuri Gagarin's contribution to manned space flight is not in question. (and I didn't need to Google his first name)

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mojo2

And PLEASE don't remind us of the other BILLIONS of dollars in aid we give away every year to different peoples and causes and nations around the world.

No, I'm going to remind you.
Because you do good with this. No denying that.

[analogika]

btw:

NASA grounds entire shuttle fleet

Again.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by MacIntel

Honor the Russians for taking over the Eastern half of Europe, including your country, and slaughtering more people all told than the nazis? Sure, okay. Strange thing to honor though.

I believe that attitude is pervasive (based on the posts I've seen here, the things I've seen on TV and familiarity with the attitudes of a family member through marriage) throughout the German society and may help us understand the German relucatnce to support the WoT and the Iraq effort.

From what I understand, after WWII the Germans legislated and almost literally brainwashed armed aggression out of their collective minds, bodies and souls. Any future war was going to be between the Russkies and the US, which maintained a large contingency force there for decades. So, while the Germans were sleeping fitfully/peacfully in the knowledge that nuclear war was always a possibility in Europe but that if it ever did happen -- they would be the 'trip-wire' as the USSR began their push across the continent -- they had the best possible friend right there to help defend the West Germans from being crushed by the USSR. Our presence was a stabilizing one and one which permitted the Germans to expand and compound their attitudes about war from one of justified aggression in the hey day of the 3rd reich to the attitude in the years since 1945 that said, "War is bad. Peace is good."

The US seemed to say, "You keep saying that to yourselves and we'll keep you safe so you can just brew good beer, build great cars and buy stuff from us."

This they did. And because they didn't have to spend maybe as much as 10% of their GNP on self defense (they did however spend SOME on military stuff, just not as much as they would have had to without the US protection) their economy was able to grow strong and Germany became a fertile ground for progressive movements, such as the Green Party and anti-war groups.

Not that this was all bad. This attitude was music to the ears of all of Germany's neighbors who had suffered Aryan assaults twice in the 20th Century and wanted to be free of the fear of Germany conquering them ANY more.

However, like a spoiled rich kid whose Daddy works hard to provide her the nicer things in life but she takes it for granted and complains that Daddy is never home and that is why he is contemptuous, the Germans have skated since 1945 in not having to worry about their own military defense and so they developed this elitist attitude.

The attitude is that war is bad and you are bad because you wage war. If we can influence you -- the big bad USA -- to give up war, then the world will then be the PERFECT place to live and we will all be happy, yah?

What they fail to realize is they were allowed the freedom of that fantasy because we were there ready, willing and able to lay our lives on the line as a deterrent and to fight if necessary and to die in the service of freedom for others.

Honoring the Russians sounds like a Christian concept of loving your enemy and 'forgiving those who trespass against you' that goes along with a belief that stopping war and loving everyone will result in nirvana here on earth. And as sweet as the ideal is behind the sentiment I think it should be stated here (and as Kenny Rogers once sang) "Sometimes you GOTTA fight when you're a man."

For those who have never heard the song or read the lyrics the story, though a bit melodramatic, is worth reading; the message, profound.

ARTIST: Roger Bowling and Billy Edd Wheeler
TITLE: Coward of the County
Lyrics and Chords


Everyone considered him
The coward of the county
He never stood one single time
To prove the county wrong
His mama named him Tommy
But folks just called him Yella
Something always told me
They were reading Tommy wrong

/ A - / D A / - - / A E - / A - / D A / - - / E A /

Now, he was only ten years old
When his daddy died in prison
And I took care of Tommy
'Cause he was my brother's son
I still recall the final words
My brother said to Tommy
"Son my life is over
But yours has just begun"

{Refrain}
Promise me son not to do the things I've done
Walk away from trouble if you can
Now, it don't mean you're weak
If you turn the other cheek
And I hope you're old enough to understand
Son, you don't have to fight to be a man

/ A - D A / D A E - / 1st / A D E - / E7 - A - /

There's someone for everyone
And Tommy's love was Becky
In her arms he didn't have
To prove he was a man
One day while he was working
The Gatlin boys came calling
They took turns at Becky
And there were three of them

Tommy opened up the door
And saw his Becky crying
The torn dress, the shattered look
Was more than he could stand
He reached above the fireplace
Took down his daddy's picture
As the tears fell on his daddy's face
I heard these words again

{Refrain}

The Gatlin boys just laughed at him
When he walked into the bar room
One of them got up and met him
Half way 'cross the floor
Tommy turned around, they said
"Hey look old Yella's leaving"
But you could've heard a pin drop
When Tommy stopped and locked the door

Twenty years of crawling
Was bottled up inside him
He wasn't holdin' nothing back
He let 'em have it all
When Tommy left the bar room
Not a Gatlin boy was standing
He said, "This one's for Becky"
As he watched the last one fall
And I heard him say

I promised you dad not to do the things you've done
I'll walk away from trouble when I can
Now please don't think I'm weak
I couldn't turn the other cheek
Papa, I sure hope you understand
Sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man

Everyone considered him the coward of the county

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No, I'm going to remind you.
Because you do good with this. No denying that.

Good of you to recognize it, old chap!

BTW, what's with the stars and bars on the moon? I thought you were a Brit. And even though I know there are Southerners who have no other reason than pride in their Dixie heritage to (rightfully, I guess, but just barely so) justify their fondness for the Confederate flag, you are from, where? Southern England???

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Good of you to recognize it, old chap!

Praise where it's due.

Originally Posted by mojo2

BTW, what's with the stars and bars on the moon? I thought you were a Brit. And even though I know there are Southerners who have no other reason than pride in their Dixie heritage to (rightfully, I guess, but just barely so) justify their fondness for the Confederate flag, you are from, where? Southern England???

Northern England - where we put all our rednecks.
The south appeals (except the whole slavery thing). The philosophy. The women. The life. The women. The community. The women. The music. The women. (did I miss anything?).

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by hip(2)b⟡

I am watching the launch of the space shuttle right now and I am full of pride.

Yep grounded. Parts fell of during launch. Mean while 2 years and 1 billion dollars later. What if the Russians or the Europeans have to go up and bring them down.

I hear they have some crazy glue with them.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Praise where it's due.



Northern England - where we put all our rednecks.
The south appeals (except the whole slavery thing). The philosophy. The women. The life. The women. The community. The women. The music. The women. (did I miss anything?).

I think you may have omitted mention of the fine, genteel and gracious women of the South.

Especially those from the great state of Tennessee where (I was informed by one who surely would know) the women are fast and the horses are beautiful.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by analogika

*Yet another ultra-lame invocation of Godwin’s Law.*

Between that, and the usual goofy WWII revision, this thread has been good for a few laughs!

[Troll]

Originally Posted by analogika

... NASA's finally getting over one of their biggest catastrophes ...

Doesn't look they're over anything. Oops, beaten to it.

[analogika]

I hope they find that the damage isn't relevant and get back home alright.

I do believe that this idiot thread can now be safely closed, though...?

[idjeff]

Originally Posted by Darthmaul4114

did you kno during the vietnam war the US dropped over 30million cluster bombs on Laos

I don't think so Mr. Maul. Throw me a reference and I'll believe you.

[idjeff]

Originally Posted by Kristjan

Switzerland was the bank, Sweden had the iron ore Germany needed and we gave it to them instead of them invading us. Nothing to be proud about, but we were not allies.

No, I guess not, but sympathizers none the less. But hey! I love Sweden now

[idjeff]

Originally Posted by Darthmaul4114

if you are a white christian or a supreme intellectual its a country of opportunities

Lot's of idiotic statements tonight.

[idjeff]

Originally Posted by analogika

btw:

NASA grounds entire shuttle fleet

Again.

Wow, I guess we're going to lose this "shuttle race" thing to....oh yeah...I forgot, nobody else has one...

[idjeff]

Anyway you cut it, the US is made up of peoples from EVERY country and region of this planet. All you US bashers out there can blame your own roots if you're dissatisfied.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by mojo2

... the Moon landings are greater than the Gagarin flight...

Why??? Please explain!

[idjeff]

Originally Posted by badidea

Why??? Please explain!

Try landing on a bullet one million miles away.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Honoring the Russians sounds like a Christian concept of loving your enemy...

I was talking about WWII! Germany was evil back then, not the Russians! The Russians gave a lot more than anybody else to defeat evil Germany!
The cold war is something completely different!!

[Darthmaul4114]

Originally Posted by idjeff

I don't think so Mr. Maul. Throw me a reference and I'll believe you.

shows you just how ignorant americans are.
here's an article i had, i don't have a scanner so just took a picture of it. it's still legible so enjoy.
oh by the way I was wrong, it was 90 million bombs....30 million of which still scatter the laotian landscape.....have a good read

heres another good read. you might want to check the film out too.
enjoy

don't even try to deny or defend that

[shabbasuraj]

Originally Posted by hip(2)b⟡

I am watching the launch of the space shuttle right now and I am full of pride.

Space. What a waste of money and time.

[DBursey]

Kudos to NASA for getting the old boat back into orbit. A shame this will be the last launch for the shuttle.

Kudos to Canadian technology for our continuing effort to keep the shuttle aloft, including our latest contribution, the OBSS. Similar Canadian technology has been employed on the ISS.

America certainly is a great country. I suppose modesty might've precluded my mention of Canada's consistency in placing at or near the top of each UN survey on these kind of things.

[hip(2)b⟡]

Yeah, good for NASA sending up a space shuttle that now they say is unsafe.



I'm no longer full of pride. I'm worried about the astronauts getting back safely at this point.

I started a thread about this very same subject here.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by hip(2)b⟡

I am watching the launch of the space shuttle right now and I am full of pride.

The United States of America is the greatest country in the world, period. First in human rights, first in space exploration, first in computer science, first in medical research...the list goes on and on.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Oh thanks for the good laugh really. The US was FAR from the first for human rights. Just look back at the 60s and ask any blacks that lived though those years they will tell you. Space Exploration thats a iffy to, Russia was right there with ya guys. Computer Science maybe I have to do some research in that but I doubt that. Medical research nope. But hey your young so reality will hit you one day

[Athens]

Originally Posted by hip(2)b⟡

Now that you mention Caddyshack there is another first:

FIRST IN MOVIEMAKING. We ARE the history of film!

Canada had you beat in the 20's for moving making.

And currently India puts out 3 times as many movies as the US.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

While you're being so proud of your Space Shuttle, keep in mind, Canada plays a large part in your space exploration

And just to be a little more correct, let's just say North America is the best continent in the world.

I could stomach that ... well almost

[Moderator]

Let's just end this debate..because the fact is....anywhere where you can get sick and your government will sit back and watch you die without lifting a finger....cannot be the best place in the world to live. Case closed.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by idjeff

I don't think so Mr. Maul. Throw me a reference and I'll believe you.

Although it was to be neutral, a growing American and North Vietnamese military presence in the country increasingly drew Laos into the second Indochina war (1954-75). For nearly a decade, Laos was subjected to extremely heavy bombing as the U.S. sought to destroy the portion of the Ho Chi Minh Trail that passed through eastern Laos.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2770.htm

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Moderator

Let's just end this debate..because the fact is....anywhere where you can get sick and your government will sit back and watch you die without lifting a finger....cannot be the best place in the world to live. Case closed.

I thought Americans, even the ones that cant afford medical got treated?

[budster101]

Why would the "Governement lift a finger?" It's a law already that Emergency Health Care is not biased based on your ability to pay the bill. It says so on a plaque in each ER in the USA. How do I know this? I know Doctors, Nurses, Paramedics and Firemen... and I've been in a few ERs for various reasons.

This has been brought up before in the great, Canada / USA healthcare debate...

If you are referring to Terri Schiavo, then that is different, it was not emergency medical care, and she was pronounced by a Doctor to be treated different than a normal patient that would recover with treatment. It was a Doctor's call in the end, not the Government. The Doctor's testimony, etc.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by Darthmaul4114

did you kno during the vietnam war the US dropped over 30million cluster bombs on Laos even though we never declared war against them? they weren't even doing anything, it was just a "precaution" so that communism wouldn't spread. worse than that, only 33% of the cluster bombs exploded on impact, so for the last 30 years there have been 20 million bombs lying idle all over the landscape until some innocent Laotian walks over it, or hits it with a hoe while farming and then...well you know. 2000 kids die a year because of them, and all the US is doing to help is giving them like 10 grand a year.

if you call that first in human rights......i dont know what the hell is wrong with you

Wasn't "a precaution" at all. The Ho Chi Minh Trail ran through Laos, the North Vietnamese crossed the border to bring supplies down south, thinking they were safe because they were in the jungles of another country.

BTW, there haven't been 30 million cluster bombs built in the history of the device. What you mean is "bomblets" - the little ones inside that are the size of hand grenades.

Way to (attempt to) rewrite history, tho.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

Yep grounded. Parts fell of during launch. Mean while 2 years and 1 billion dollars later. What if the Russians or the Europeans have to go up and bring them down.

I hear they have some crazy glue with them.

"Parts" didn't fall off, some insulation came off the external fuel tanks, I mean, the shuttle is an amazing thing. The most amazing thing about them is that they ALL don't blow up. I mean, here you have a multi-billion dollar machine, built of billions of parts, all supplied by the lowest possible bidder, yet it has a better safety record than any other transportation project in the history of mankind - and still people bitch. It has failed twice since 1981 - allbeit spectacular failures - but no one else has built a successful reusable orbiter.

The shuttle itself was not damaged and is performing flawlessly as of this morning's news.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

yet it has a better safety record than any other transportation project in the history of mankind - and still people bitch. It has failed twice since 1981

*cough*
Concorde.
Only failed once yet did quite a few more runs than the shuttle.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by Athens

Canada had you beat in the 20's for moving making.

And currently India puts out 3 times as many movies as the US.

There are more cockroaches in the world than humans, does that make them better?

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by Doofy

*cough*
Concorde.
Only failed once yet did quite a few more runs than the shuttle.

Was grounded for structural repairs 16 times, however.

Another spectacular failing that colored an entire fleet, as with the Space Shuttle.

No one seems to remember the multitude of safe, uneventful missions of both Concorde and the Space Shuttle, just the failures.

Sad, really.

[budster101]

Quantity does not mean Quality.

Cranking them out on a weekly basis is not something necessarily to be proud of, but why are you arguing this point regarding what makes America the Greatest? The question isn't is America the MOST is it?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by budster101

Quantity does not mean Quality.

Cranking them out on a weekly basis is not something necessarily to be proud of, but why are you arguing this point regarding what makes America the Greatest? The question isn't is America the MOST is it?

Macrobat was stating that the shuttle has "a better safety record than any other transportation project in the history of mankind". I was merely correcting him, as the shuttle has had two major failures while Concorde has had only one (despite being in more frequent use).

Not arguing that the shuttle isn't a great achievement, because it is.

And us Brits even tell you how large to make it!
(there's an interesting text out there somewhere which reckons the size of the shuttle is related to British railroad track size)

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

no one else has built a successful reusable orbiter.

First of all, that's not true. The Russians BUILT a reusable orbiter.

That aside, the reason no one else has built a reusable orbiter is that a reusable orbiter is a dumb idea.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And us Brits even tell you how large to make it!
(there's an interesting text out there somewhere which reckons the size of the shuttle is related to British railroad track size)

Actually, the Roman Empire can take credit for that. It's the size of two Roman Chariot horses arses' that determines the size of Shuttle bits.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Troll

Actually, the Roman Empire can take credit for that. It's the size of two Roman Chariot horses arses' that determines the size of Shuttle bits.

Good catch. It's been a while since I've read that text file.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by Troll

First of all, that's not true. The Russians BUILT a reusable orbiter.

That aside, the reason no one else has built a reusable orbiter is that a reusable orbiter is a dumb idea.

What part of the word "successful" has you confused? Baran never flew, not once. The one example of it ever built is a testbed, like the Enterprise was, and was never intended to go into space, just as Enterprise never did, Columbia was the first. There's those nasty "facts" biting you in the ass again, huh? And, a reusable orbiter happens to be the first step on the road to interplanetary travel, instead of generating more and more throwaway crap that floats around in space due to one-time-use orbiters that leave pieces of themselves up there, and cost billions to produce one at a time. Not to mention that the Space Shuttle has 10 times the delivery capacity than any one-timer, can deliver multiple orbital devices in one launch as opposed to one per, and is the ONLY vehicle that can successfully build and resupply a space station.

*Edit* Forgot to mention that the Space Shuttle is the only vehicle capable of retrieving any malfunctioning satellite and returning it to Earth for repair, or performing said repairs while in orbit.

Yeah, some dumb idea.

[MacIntel]

Originally Posted by badidea

I was talking about WWII! Germany was evil back then, not the Russians! The Russians gave a lot more than anybody else to defeat evil Germany!
The cold war is something completely different!!

The Russians made a pact with 'evil' Germany, and were only psudeo-Allies because they got burned in their pact. Soviet actions during WWII, other than defending themselves against their former pact-mates, were all-around pretty rotten. The seeds of the Cold War were planted during WWII. The two aren't so easily seperated.

The Russians deserve credit for their part in defeating Germany, but 'honored'? Their actions, motives, and conquests overshadow anything 'honorable'.

This thread was effectively over when the stock Hitler comparisons were made and Goodwin's law went into effect.

[budster101]

The Russian Winter and Lack of Supplies did the way too young and inexperienced German Troops and that is ALL. Nothing more.

Hitler made a tactical mistake by attacking Russia and fighting a losing war at two fronts... he ended up sending soldiers that were way too young just for shear numbers as a last ditch effort to make something happen...

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by budster101

Why would the "Governement lift a finger?" It's a law already that Emergency Health Care is not biased based on your ability to pay the bill. It says so on a plaque in each ER in the USA. How do I know this? I know Doctors, Nurses, Paramedics and Firemen... and I've been in a few ERs for various reasons.

Fair enough, emergency healthcare...thats great. Let me ask you, if a guy goes deaf, and can't afford a hearing aid, which would help him hear...would the US government help a good American citizen out?

Because, if its THE best place to live, then things like that will matter to the average joe.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy

*cough*
Concorde.
Only failed once yet did quite a few more runs than the shuttle.

The elevator has a better safty record

2 out of 7 is not a good record. How many thousands of 747's have been built and compare that to how many have crashed. Or compare how many flights all 747's have had in its life time and compare that to the shuttle then do the % I bet u the 747 will come out ahead.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

There are more cockroaches in the world than humans, does that make them better?

If 200 million Americans said American movies are better and if 400 million East Indians said Indian movies are better, does that mean Indian movies are better because more people say they are? Im sure Indian movies are great to Indians and American movies are great for westerners. Point is who dishes out more movies, and has a larger movie industry. That honor goes to India.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by budster101

The Russian Winter and Lack of Supplies did the way too young and inexperienced German Troops and that is ALL. Nothing more.

Hitler made a tactical mistake by attacking Russia and fighting a losing war at two fronts... he ended up sending soldiers that were way too young just for shear numbers as a last ditch effort to make something happen...

Um you forgot that the Russians burnt down the towns to prevent the Germans from getting supplies, that also did the germans in. Also after that mistake, Russa was in a position to take over Germany on its own from that point on. It was the Russians who go to Berlin first.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Athens

The elevator has a better safty record

2 out of 7 is not a good record. How many thousands of 747's have been built and compare that to how many have crashed. Or compare how many flights all 747's have had in its life time and compare that to the shuttle then do the % I bet u the 747 will come out ahead.

Excuse me if I point out something that may have escaped your attention.

The trip to, from and within the unforgiving environment of space is much more dangerous than flying anywhere on earth in a 747 or a Concorde.

Furthermore, the Shuttle is designed to be a working vehicle, carrying, deploying, repairing, capturing and securing rather large and cumbersome and highly sensitive multi-million dollar payloads while providing EVERY THING needed to support life for 7 highly trained Astronaut mission specialists for several weeks at a time.

This is one of THE most electronically and mechanically complex machines ever built. If anyone else could do it, they would have.

It's a quarter century old and needs to be replaced, but it is still a marvel which deserves to be viewed with some amount of awe.

If there were no Shuttle each trip to space would require the use of a "one-use throwaway" rocket vehicle and it wouldn't be able to carry NEARLY as much or do as much as the Shuttle.

That is CLEARLY a point in the USA column.