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Zitax · Jan 8, 2003, 07:10 PM

U can sign Here.

KaptainKaya · Jan 8, 2003, 07:14 PM

These things never work.

curmi · Jan 8, 2003, 07:31 PM

I'm reposting this from a post I've made on the Apple support forums.

I know a lot of people who have used tabbed browsers really want tabs. I agree - tabs make things a lot easier to work with, and if you don't like them you don't have to use them.

However, I feel OS X can do something better than tabs - something more OS X like, taking advantage of OS X features that aren't available (easily) on other operating systems.

I'd like to propose instead that a "tabbed" system use a drawer with small screen shots - like in Preview. This helps you to visually see the content of the window (maybe even when it is loaded if these are dynamic).

Here is a mockup I've done:

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/.Pictu...bbedsafari.jpg

If you don't want to use tabbed browsing, don't open the drawer and it behaves like it does now.

The problem with tabs is that they only show text, where the web is both a visual and text tool. Also, they bunch up if you have a half dozen or so open - and you can't read the text anyway. You end up having to either start a new window, or add scrollbars to the tabs which is ugly and not a usual mac UI paradigm.

An interface along these lines would make Safari the most advanced browser around, and show more Apple innovation.

And I'd sign a petition for an innovative feature like this.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jan 8, 2003, 07:32 PM

Petition!? You have got to be F�cking kidding me. It is a beta and just because the first beta doesn't have tabs they come up with some loser petition???!!

krove · Jan 8, 2003, 07:35 PM

Should have seen this one coming...

Don't people realize that there are like 5 or 6 different browsers now available for OS X and not every single one has to have the same feature set! Don't like Safari, use something else!

krove · Jan 8, 2003, 07:41 PM

[edit] damn...double post

goose · Jan 8, 2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
These things never work.

Hehehe, kinda like the don't charge us for .Mac and give us free email petition....

Simon Mundy · Jan 8, 2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by curmi:
I'm reposting this from a post I've made on the Apple support forums.

I know a lot of people who have used tabbed browsers really want tabs. I agree - tabs make things a lot easier to work with, and if you don't like them you don't have to use them.

However, I feel OS X can do something better than tabs - something more OS X like, taking advantage of OS X features that aren't available (easily) on other operating systems.

I'd like to propose instead that a "tabbed" system use a drawer with small screen shots - like in Preview. This helps you to visually see the content of the window (maybe even when it is loaded if these are dynamic).

Here is a mockup I've done:

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/.Pictu...bbedsafari.jpg

If you don't want to use tabbed browsing, don't open the drawer and it behaves like it does now.

The problem with tabs is that they only show text, where the web is both a visual and text tool. Also, they bunch up if you have a half dozen or so open - and you can't read the text anyway. You end up having to either start a new window, or add scrollbars to the tabs which is ugly and not a usual mac UI paradigm.

An interface along these lines would make Safari the most advanced browser around, and show more Apple innovation.

And I'd sign a petition for an innovative feature like this.

I'm with you on that one. Those 'thumbnails' can also have the spinning cursor overlaid on them to show progress, or have the alert ! if there is a browser/javascript error and not appear 'tacked on' - it's quite a graceful solution.

You can also have as many or few as you need without the 'overcrowded tabs' syndrome that Chimera gets if you have a small monitor and 16 tabs (whether you actually need that many is a debatable point)

I'll second that for submission to Apple Feedback!

Geobunny · Jan 8, 2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by goose:
Hehehe, kinda like the don't charge us for .Mac and give us free email petition....

... and the File Meta-data petition. Yeah, that got us far, didn't it?!

I like the drawer approach btw.

OAW · Jan 8, 2003, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by curmi:
I'm reposting this from a post I've made on the Apple support forums.

I know a lot of people who have used tabbed browsers really want tabs. I agree - tabs make things a lot easier to work with, and if you don't like them you don't have to use them.

However, I feel OS X can do something better than tabs - something more OS X like, taking advantage of OS X features that aren't available (easily) on other operating systems.

I'd like to propose instead that a "tabbed" system use a drawer with small screen shots - like in Preview. This helps you to visually see the content of the window (maybe even when it is loaded if these are dynamic).

Here is a mockup I've done:

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/.Pictu...bbedsafari.jpg

If you don't want to use tabbed browsing, don't open the drawer and it behaves like it does now.

The problem with tabs is that they only show text, where the web is both a visual and text tool. Also, they bunch up if you have a half dozen or so open - and you can't read the text anyway. You end up having to either start a new window, or add scrollbars to the tabs which is ugly and not a usual mac UI paradigm.

An interface along these lines would make Safari the most advanced browser around, and show more Apple innovation.

And I'd sign a petition for an innovative feature like this.

I essentially agree with you, however my suggestion would be to NOT use a drawer for this. My suggestion would be to stick with the design elements of Safari and use an inward opening pane on the right side of the screen that is accessed by a "Show All Open Webpages" button on the "Bookmarks" bar .... much like the "Show All Bookmarks button". Other than that, my idea is basically the same as yours. However, the approach I'm advocating won't result in any browser window resizing or moving to make room for a drawer.

I posted the details over on page 3 of the "Safari - Apple Branded Web Browser Discussion" forum if you are interested.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...0&pagenumber=3

OAW

ryju · Jan 8, 2003, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by krove:
Should have seen this one coming...

Don't people realize that there are like 5 or 6 different browsers now available for OS X and not every single one has to have the same feature set! Don't like Safari, use something else!

Keep in mind that alot of people want to use safari because it's FASTER than any other browser...

don't like people taking action for good ideas, don't read the posts.

Guy Incognito · Jan 8, 2003, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Petition!? You have got to be F�cking kidding me. It is a beta and just because the first beta doesn't have tabs they come up with some loser petition???!!

Agreed...this is ridiculous.

Tabbed-browsing is a feature about 1% of the browsing population use...it so happens to be the geek population that flood the forums with this crap.

Most people browse sites one at a time in one single window...and they'd probably flip out if they heard someone was able browse several webpages at once.

Why should Apple include tabs for the 1% geek population? Why should Apple destroy 3rd-party devs' chances to get a piece of the browser marketshare pie by offering tabbed-browsing as a feature alternative to Safari for the geeky multitasking and pr0n surfing population?

If Safari gets tabs...Chimera goes bye-bye. Everyone's gonna dump Chimera for Safari and Gecko developers will start a huge riot and KILL EVERYONE!

nforcer · Jan 8, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Agreed...this is ridiculous.

Tabbed-browsing is a feature about 1% of the browsing population use...it so happens to be the geek population that flood the forums with this crap.

Most people browse sites one at a time in one single window...and they'd probably flip out if they heard someone was able browse several webpages at once.

Why should Apple include tabs for the 1% geek population? Why should Apple destroy 3rd-party devs' chances to get a piece of the browser marketshare pie by offering tabbed-browsing as a feature alternative to Safari for the geeky multitasking and pr0n surfing population?

If Safari gets tabs...Chimera goes bye-bye. Everyone's gonna dump Chimera for Safari and Gecko developers will start a huge riot and KILL EVERYONE!

I'd like to know where you get your 1% statistic and other info from. In any case, Apple wanted feedback on their browser, and we are giving it to them. Like curmi suggested, perhaps tabs are not the absolute answer, but some kind of multi-page single window browsing is what a lot of users such as myself want. If you don't like the concept of browsing more than a single page in one window, then don't use it. But for those of us who want the option (tabs being one implementation of it), it is a godsend and a true timesaver.

If Safari ends up being better than Chimera (and all other browsers), so be it. Apple is under no obligation to "cripple" their browser so others can succeed.

poocat · Jan 8, 2003, 10:58 PM

hi Guy.

you know what i like best about your posts? you've gone from "i don't like tabs" to "tabs break interface guidelines (they do)" to "tabs are evil" to "NO ONE WANTS TABS." i do appreciate the scalability of your rhetoric. excellent job.

but there's one flaw.

a single-window interface is BETTER than one with mulitple windows. it uses less screen real-estate, minimizes mouse time, and helps people do more things at once. have you ever minimized all your ie windows (ow? whatever) to the dock and realized that your dock now had SIX little ow windows? yes, that's bad. do the same thing with tabs... ooh, one window!

now, please, before we start this war, realize that i do understand the limits of tabs. i DON'T want tabs in safari. i want to see a coherently designed single-window browser interface. i don't care how apple does it. my immediate thought, after seeing the ease of management (and single-window mentality) brought about by the bookmarking, is to mimic that. if apple has a better solution... i'm all for it.

but to continually argue against single-window interfaces...

do you stil use audion for it's excellent playlist window?

do you use... wait. that's right. you don't like tabs.

me neither.

but they're the only solution i've been presented with...

pc.

Guy Incognito · Jan 8, 2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by nforcer:
I'd like to know where you get your 1% statistic and other info from. In any case, Apple wanted feedback on their browser, and we are giving it to them. Like curmi suggested, perhaps tabs are not the absolute answer, but some kind of multi-page single window browsing is what a lot of users such as myself want. If you don't like the concept of browsing more than a single page in one window, then don't. But for those of us who want the option (tabs being one implementation of it), it is a godsend and a true timesaver.

If Safari ends up being better than Chimera (and all other browsers), so be it. Apple is under no obligation to "cripple" their browser so others can succeed.

Ok...I agree on that last statement. In fact, I do want Apple to up the standard so that others actually work a little harder producing better apps.

And, yes, Apple would never implement tabs the way Chimera has done so. It would be a completely different implementation if they did add it. Many suggestions have cropped up in the past 6 months...I hope Omni and Apple have good ideas of their own on how to implement this.

Guy Incognito · Jan 8, 2003, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by poocat:
hi Guy.

you know what i like best about your posts? you've gone from "i don't like tabs" to "tabs break interface guidelines (they do)" to "tabs are evil" to "NO ONE WANTS TABS." i do appreciate the scalability of your rhetoric. excellent job.

Really...you love it? Thanks!

I like that about my posts too.

But seriously...you're putting words into my mouth and you're misunderstanding me.

I'm not saying 'No one wants tabs' and I've never said 'Tabs are evil' per se.

I am saying though that the majority of browsers browse site by site in one window...they don't need tabs.

I am saying that tabs in Chimera are being misused.

I'm *ALL* for a better implementation. I've said this a million times and provided graphics. Go back and look at them if you haven't. They might not be the end-all solution...but they were certainly better than the tabs in Chimera for the reasons I explained in those threads.

Again...if Apple were to implement tabs. I probably wouldn't mind, if it was implemented better than what Chimera has. But lets face it...mom and pops and little Suzy won't be using it. So why should Apple go beyond the majority that don't need it?

Has Safari become a pro app without me knowing?

mitchell_pgh · Jan 8, 2003, 11:22 PM

I like the idea AS AN OPTION

I would hate it if Apple forced it on us...

One button... bingo, all the "I must have tabs" people join in the fun.

I don't like tabs, but some can't seem to live without them, so I guess Apple should consider them.

macgyvr64 · Jan 8, 2003, 11:23 PM

Just add tabbed browsing (or that drawer idea) and put a checkbox in the prefs to turn tabs on/off.

Guy Incognito · Jan 8, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I like the idea AS AN OPTION

I would hate it if Apple forced it on us...

One button... bingo, all the "I must have tabs" people join in the fun.

I don't like tabs, but some can't seem to live without them, so I guess Apple should consider them.

Heck...they've got the little book icon in the bar for bookmarks...they could add a little broom icon for sweeping all the windows under one rug...click the broom icon and you get all the tabbed windows in a thumbnail preview format.

OAW · Jan 8, 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Heck...they've got the little book icon in the bar for bookmarks...they could add a little broom icon for sweeping all the windows under one rug...click the broom icon and you get all the tabbed windows in a thumbnail preview format.

Guy,

As usual, you and I are on the same page on this issue. I mentioned the exact same idea a few posts up. That post links to another post of mine in another thread that has all the details.

OAW

Superchicken · Jan 9, 2003, 12:16 AM

I like tabbed but the thing is. Apple has intentionally made safari like iTunes and iPhoto and iMovie and iDVD... need I go on?
hence instead of tabs they will do something smarter.
Look at the side of your iTunes main window. See that? Play lists.
Think of playlists for the web. Get it?
What would be the most likely is a built into window side bar. Probably however not open by default, you'd have to click it open and then click add new tab, but why call it a tab? They'd probably come up with some name that's weird like uhh.
instance or session or... I dono maybe they'll just have a plus button and be done with it... or call it a pane or something... kinda poke fun at how bit of a pain tabbed browser users can be when they don't get a tab system

I'm acctually surprized iChat isn't layed out more like Proteus can be where you have a drawer with the names and junk, and one window where they're all in. Anyway PERSONALLY, I'm waiting for them to brush metalize Mail.app and for them to deliver a one window interface to iChat... I think iChat with the .mac fiasco hasn't been as big of a hit as it coulda been.
I think version 2 will be spiffy.
Another thing... anyone else think that iChat, Mail, and Surfari are gona get the same treatment as the iLife apps?

Hi I'm Ben · Jan 9, 2003, 12:34 AM

i wanna wet my shorts because a browser doesn't have tabs.

mishap · Jan 9, 2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
I like tabbed but the thing is. Apple has intentionally made safari like iTunes and iPhoto and iMovie and iDVD... need I go on?
hence instead of tabs they will do something smarter.
Look at the side of your iTunes main window. See that? Play lists.
Think of playlists for the web. Get it?
What would be the most likely is a built into window side bar. Probably however not open by default, you'd have to click it open and then click add new tab, but why call it a tab? They'd probably come up with some name that's weird like uhh.
instance or session or... I dono maybe they'll just have a plus button and be done with it... or call it a pane or something... kinda poke fun at how bit of a pain tabbed browser users can be when they don't get a tab system

Safari is beautiful as it is...this will completely ruin the streamline interface.

if they are to add tabs... it needs to be minimal

Mac Guru · Jan 9, 2003, 01:43 AM

What I love is people act like they can't live without a browser that has tabbed browsing... What did you do before tabbed browsing? You lived fine then correct? What would make it so vile and horrid to live without them again?

Mac Guru

sideus · Jan 9, 2003, 01:48 AM

Agreed. I tried to use tabbed browsing, just didn't fit in with my "browsing style". I found the tabs annoying.

"Bow down to the Tab-Browsing God"

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jan 9, 2003, 01:59 AM

I love tabs but I dont' think Chimera does them well. I want tabs in safari more then anything else but a petition is really dumb.

Miniryu · Jan 9, 2003, 02:35 AM

drawers SUCK! I don't understand what eveyone loves about them. They are ugly, take up far too much room, and are slow to open/close. Safari's Bookmark window is a much better solution. This would be a worth implementation of the tab idea.

wataru · Jan 9, 2003, 02:45 AM

You all may be anti-tab, but I want tabs in Safari. If I don't get them then I'll just keep using Chimera.

Ooh, scary, wataru won't use Safari! I'm sure Apple's quaking in their boots.

But seriously, I love tabs (I have no problem with Chimera's implementation) and I want them in Safari.

nobodybutme · Jan 9, 2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Mac Guru:
What I love is people act like they can't live without a browser that has tabbed browsing... What did you do before tabbed browsing? You lived fine then correct? What would make it so vile and horrid to live without them again?

Mac Guru

That is a totally asinine comment. Tabs can be a time saver and a convenience. Will I not use Safari because of it? Well...for work, yeah. Safari will be used for browsing, Mozilla will be used for work. Your work habits are not mine. Use what you want. Mozilla has better JS support and tabbed browsing. That's a big plus for my daily activities. Tabs would be a step closer for me to use it more. Better JavaScript support(yes, I hit bugs in Safari), would probably make me only open Mozilla for testing.

khufuu · Jan 9, 2003, 03:07 AM

Aren't tabs kind of like the new 'snap back' feature in Safari. The beauty of the tabs is that you can snap back many times and it very visual. I see tabs as being a very successful way to implement this. Or am I mis-understanding how/what snap back is?

BTW, does anyone know how to start Chimera with several tabs each with a different 'home' page when you initially launch the program?

I would love to launch the program with four tabs; each having a different source of news. You know, one tab for cnn, one of NY Times, another for BBC etc...

nobodybutme · Jan 9, 2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by khufuu:
I would love to launch the program with four tabs; each having a different source of news. You know, one tab for cnn, one of NY Times, another for BBC etc...

This is was Mozilla 1.2 does. You can bookmark a group of tabs and also set a group of tabs as a start page. This is what makes it so convenient. Creating a bookmark for a group of tabs for a specific topic is extremely convenient.

MickS · Jan 9, 2003, 09:20 AM

Wouldn't the tab's have to be brushed metal to keep with the look and feel

I'd rather have Apple look at other ways to solve the problem addressed by tabs than just implement them. Look at what they did to the bookmarks.

Guy Incognito · 10:06 AM

Originally posted by OAW:
Guy,

As usual, you and I are on the same page on this issue. I mentioned the exact same idea a few posts up. That post links to another post of mine in another thread that has all the details.

OAW

Couldn't find it.

But here are other ideas.

Because Safari is so damn fast, the pages wouldn't need to be cached (but still could be for those on dial up).

But here's where I think the best solution lies (but I still see some problems with it...but I'll be finding a solution to that soon enough)...

Everytime you type in a new URL address or click a new bookmark link or click a link using some key-combo, Safari would take the page you were on and store it in the 'tabbed-page-browser'.

You wouldn't have to click anything to create a tab. Safari would automatically store the page for you in the tabbed-page-browser.

Here are two problems that are undoubtedly going to crop up from the usual crowd:

Q1 - "Your so-called 'tabbed-page-browser' requires two clicks and is waaaay out of reach...are you stupid?"

A - No, I'm not stupid. Yes, it would take two clicks...clicking the 'broom' icon (can be any icon to represent a grouping of windows), and then selecting from the thumbnails of webpages the one you want. Two-clicks...yeah...but could display way more info using a thumbnail and URL than tabs ever could just using the sometimes non-descriptive page title truncated into a small tab.

Q2 - "Well...what if I don't want to tab a certain page? If I start writing a new address, Safari is going to tab the page I was just on. I don't want that, it'll clutter the tabbed-page-browser with pages I don't want. Have you really thought this through Guy, you moron?"

A - Yes, a little. There are a few solutions I can think of...some elegant, some not.

Sol#1: To tab a page cmd-return after typing the URL could tab the page you are on. A normal return wouldn't. Or vice-versa. Same with links and bookmarks...holding cmd while clicking a bookmark could create a tab of the page you are on. A normal click wouldn't. Or vice-versa. (note that the cmd key combo is *an example*)...to those that wouldn't use this, the 'broom' icon on the bookmark bar would be toggleable just like 'Address Book' and 'Rendezvous' bookmarks are toggleable.

Sol#2: Snap back could have a buddy...a tab-this-page icon. (This would come with a key-combo too.)

Ilja · Jan 9, 2003, 10:48 AM

What's all these fuzz about: Obviously you have users who like it and users who don't. I'm sure that if it would be implemented it would be an option, so you could turn it off... So everybody's happy

Not having tabbed windows is for me the one and only reason not to use Safari yet, if it would support it I would use it period.

khufuu · Jan 9, 2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by nobodybutme:
This is was Mozilla 1.2 does. You can bookmark a group of tabs and also set a group of tabs as a start page. This is what makes it so convenient. Creating a bookmark for a group of tabs for a specific topic is extremely convenient.

Way cool. I've been using Chimera exclusively since this past September when I moved off of Moz. I didn't really 'get' tabs at that time and thought that they'd just be a waste of time. I've changed my mind since then.

khufuu · Jan 9, 2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by MickS:
I'd rather have Apple look at other ways to solve the problem addressed by tabs than just implement them. Look at what they did to the bookmarks.

Um.. what did they do to bookmarks?

Producer · Jan 9, 2003, 10:59 AM

I want some kind a tab functionality too...if you don't like tabs you wont even know there there so it will take away nothing to those that don't use them...

Also for some reason safari is slow on banking sites including etrade..chimera kicks booty at it..

invisibleX · Jan 9, 2003, 11:26 AM

I am sooo glad none of you work for Apple.

If there is a demand for tabs Apple will most certainly implement them in its own manner.

Hey Superchic[k]en, you know we both live in the same city?

dfiler · Jan 9, 2003, 01:59 PM

Where's the anti-tab petition? I'll sign it.

Seriously, there are very good reasons why tabs should not be included by apple even if Safari were defaulted to tab-less behavior. I have yet to see a tab implementation that doesn't break the direct manipulation metaphor. MS Window's overloaded behavior of the window controls routinely trip up non-geeks. Many will never be able to distinguish between MDI and document level controls.

Tabs are equally useful in web browsing as they are in any other application. The concept of tabs has been around a long time and apple has deliberately chosen not to use them. If tabbed, document-window interfaces were prolific; the Mac's ease of use would be ruined. Its not just by chance that pallets and windows are different in appearance and behavior. It also isn't chance that documents are almost always in a one to one relationship with windows. This consciously and subconsciously reinforces the association of a document and all interface elements with real world objects. The value of the one to one ratio of window level controls to a document should not be underestimated.

What's next? Tabbed finder windows? Tabbed file icons? Tabs have been responsible for some of the worst interface paradigms around. Case in point, what happens in a multi-paned preference window when you change a setting and then go to another tab without first clicking OK, Cancel, Save, Close, or Apply? The whole concept of tabbed preferences is very dangerous. Modifications either commit upon tab switching or the OK, Apply and Cancel buttons effect more than what is visible on the screen. Apple is aware of the necessary evils of tabs and has done some amazing things in System Preferences. Many of the preferences force you to commit to or cancel changes prior to going to another tab.

This is an excellent place to let third parties provide a feature that is beneficial to a small minority of users. Rather than Apple contributing to a dangerous interface trend, I hope they will leave it up to the system tweakers.

OAW · Jan 9, 2003, 02:07 PM

Guy,

The following is a repost from the other thread that you weren't able to find ....

"This is my suggestion on how Safari should implement "tabbed" browsing ... simply follow the design element of the "Bookmarks" screen!

Background

When you click the bookmarks button in the "Bookmarks" bar it instantly opens up the bookmarks screen on top of the current page. That page has a "Collections" list and a "Bookmarks" list. Safari shoud handle "tabs" or "single-window browsing" in the same way! Having said that ...

"Single Window Browsing" Approach

1. There should be a "Show All Open Webpages" button in the "Bookmarks Bar". Perhaps on the far right. Clicking this button should toggle on or off a pane that contains an "Open Webpages" list .... coming inward (please don't use a drawer for this!) from the right-hand side (less mousing since most people are right handed). However, the currently displayed webpage should still be visible in the left "pane" ... only at a smaller width.

2. The width of the pane should be resizable, and it should remember the last width it was set to.

3. The "Open Webpages" list shoud display the web icon (as do the bookmarks) as well as the page title of all open web pages. Alternatively, a thumbnail of the page (a la Preview) can be displayed instead of the web icon as well as the page title ... but only if it doesn't impact the speed. The currently displayed webpage should be selected in the list. Clicking on the icon/thumbnail in the list switches the currently displayed webpage. It's a vertical list, so there shouldn't be any readability issues when many pages are open as there is in the horizontal approach of tabs.

4. The icons in the "Open Webpages" list should have contextual menus like "Open page in new window", "Close page", etc. For a littly "eye candy", the user should be able to drag an icon out of the list and outside of the browser window to close a page as well ... perhaps with a nice little "poof" effect!

5. The pane itself should have a brushed metal border as is used in the Bookmarks window with a "+" button at the bottom that when clicked, adds a new generic web icon to the "Open Webpages" list with a title of "Blank Page" ....displays a blank webpage ... and positions the cursor in the URL bar.

Of course, since the "Show All Open Pages" button is a toggle, using it or not is totally up to the user.

What do you think?

OAW

Edit: Since a picture is worth a thousand words, maybe one of you Photoshop experts can mock this up and post it here?"

Guy Incognito · Jan 9, 2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by dfiler:
Where's the anti-tab petition? I'll sign it.

Seriously, there are very good reasons why tabs should not be included by apple even if Safari were defaulted to tab-less behavior. I have yet to see a tab implementation that doesn't break the direct manipulation metaphor. MS Window's overloaded behavior of the window controls routinely trip up non-geeks. Many will never be able to distinguish between MDI and document level controls.

Tabs are equally useful in web browsing as they are in any other application. The concept of tabs has been around a long time and apple has deliberately chosen not to use them. If tabbed, document-window interfaces were prolific; the Mac's ease of use would be ruined. Its not just by chance that pallets and windows are different in appearance and behavior. It also isn't chance that documents are almost always in a one to one relationship with windows. This consciously and subconsciously reinforces the association of a document and all interface elements with real world objects. The value of the one to one ratio of window level controls to a document should not be underestimated.

What's next? Tabbed finder windows? Tabbed file icons? Tabs have been responsible for some of the worst interface paradigms around. Case in point, what happens in a multi-paned preference window when you change a setting and then go to another tab without first clicking OK, Cancel, Save, Close, or Apply? The whole concept of tabbed preferences is very dangerous. Modifications either commit upon tab switching or the OK, Apply and Cancel buttons effect more than what is visible on the screen. Apple is aware of the necessary evils of tabs and has done some amazing things in System Preferences. Many of the preferences force you to commit to or cancel changes prior to going to another tab.

This is an excellent place to let third parties provide a feature that is beneficial to a small minority of users. Rather than Apple contributing to a dangerous interface trend, I hope they will leave it up to the system tweakers.

Whoa...best explanation ever! I wish I could have said that. And as eloquently.

You've made my day...can I safekeep a copy of this for future references? I think it might help me explain some of my points better. The credit will be given to you...don't worry.

Guy Incognito · Jan 9, 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by OAW:

What do you think?

Thanks...those are really good ideas you've got there.

That would work for me and I'd probably use that method.

simonmartin · Jan 9, 2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by curmi:
I'd like to propose instead that a "tabbed" system use a drawer with small screen shots - like in Preview. This helps you to visually see the content of the window (maybe even when it is loaded if these are dynamic).

Here is a mockup I've done:

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/.Pictu...bbedsafari.jpg

I think this looks like an excellent idea, although I think I would prefer Mozilla style tabs.

Another approach might be to have a click-and-hold contextual menu which gives an option of opening the link in a page *in the Dock*. There the page could load, out of the way with no screen clutter at all. Then cmd-click on the icon in the dock to swap it for the active one or just click to have it join the active one. I think that could work...

I hate the having to hit the control key to get a page to open in a new window BTW. It's unnescessary. In Mozilla I click and hold, wait for the contextual menu and do what I need to do. Having to access the keyboard every two minutes is a pain when you have a cup of coffee in your other hand, worse still if the baby is on your knee... This is *my* major gripe.

Simon
London Uk

lookmark · Jan 9, 2003, 02:40 PM

While the Safari team figures out the incredibly tricky issue of how to do multiple page browsing in a single window right -- if it even can and should be done -- I think Apple should continue to:

1. Introduce innvoative improvements to browsing, such as SnapBack,

and

2. Improve OS X's window management, which is (as much discussed) currently a bit weak and can and should be much better. There's little doubt that #2 is coming late this year in the major OS X upgrade.

I use tabbed browsing in OS 9, so I recognize both its advantages *and* problems, but Safari isn't the be-all end-all geek solution. It should focus on making browsing easy, fast, and standards-compliant. Tabbed browsing, for all the love showered upon it, has some serious UI and complexity issues and needs to be considered carefully before being slapped on.

lookmark · Jan 9, 2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by simonmartin:

Another approach might be to have a click-and-hold contextual menu which gives an option of opening the link in a page *in the Dock*. There the page could load, out of the way with no screen clutter at all. Then cmd-click on the icon in the dock to swap it for the active one or just click to have it join the active one.

I like this idea a lot, although command-click is pretty much standard across Mac browsers and should always open in a new window.

Command-option-click, perhaps?

This, plus new/improved window mgmt ideas in 10.3, just might be really quite useful.

OAW · Jan 9, 2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Thanks...those are really good ideas you've got there.

That would work for me and I'd probably use that method.

Well then get off your lazy ass and mock it up for the viewing audience!

Just kidding of course, but it would be nice if someone could post a picture of what you and I are talking about so everyone can see why it would be much better than "tabs".

OAW

lookmark · Jan 9, 2003, 02:55 PM

re OAW's "page pane" solution:

I've been in the process of mocking something like this up (well before Safari's release), so if I have some time I'll try to finish it up real soon.

dfiler summed it up really well, though... as soon as you have a single window containing multiple pages you start getting into MDI territory and a lot of clunky, weird Windows-like behavior.

That's why I'm not yet convinced that tabbed browsing is truly (uh-oh) Mac-like.

But I'm also seduced by just how useful multipage browsing in a single window can be, in practice...

Xeo · Jan 9, 2003, 03:10 PM

On the "playlists for the Web" idea, is there a browser which has a "playlist" or something where you can click a button and all your favorite check-em-every-5-minutes websites open up? This, in some tabbed (or whatever implementation) window would allow easy cycling through all your favorite news sites.

I'm pretty sure I've seen 3rd party apps which will open all the sites for you, but is there a browser which does it built-in?

It'd be a nice feature in Safari.

OAW · Jan 9, 2003, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Xeo:
On the "playlists for the Web" idea, is there a browser which has a "playlist" or something where you can click a button and all your favorite check-em-every-5-minutes websites open up? This, in some tabbed (or whatever implementation) window would allow easy cycling through all your favorite news sites.

I'm pretty sure I've seen 3rd party apps which will open all the sites for you, but is there a browser which does it built-in?

It'd be a nice feature in Safari.

This could easily be implemented in my "Open Webpages" pane idea by using the existing Bookmarks functionality. All Safari would need is a capability to add a Bookmark that referenced multiple sites.

OAW

nobodybutme · Jan 9, 2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by dfiler:

...

Tabs are equally useful in web browsing as they are in any other application. The concept of tabs has been around a long time and apple has deliberately chosen not to use them.

um..I believe I've seen a few Apple apps with tabs. Project Builder, Interface Builder, Sharing preferences, Quicktime preferences, Network Utility, etc. I may have misunderstood your point.

What's next? Tabbed finder windows? Tabbed file icons? Tabs have been responsible for some of the worst interface paradigms around. Case in point, what happens in a multi-paned preference window when you change a setting and then go to another tab without first clicking OK, Cancel, Save, Close, or Apply? The whole concept of tabbed preferences is very dangerous.

I partially agree with you. The result of actions in preferences can be ambiguous for some people. Although a tabbed finder would be damn handy at times.

Your reasoning assumes that the user has no idea about the context of a browser window. With preferences its confusing since it seems like the preference panel seems to be all one context, one entity, which may or may not be the case. Which, like you said, may or may not affect other things. Each tab may require its own acceptance actions as you stated.

I really don't think ambiguous context is a problem with tabbed browsing since it's obvious that the context is different per page. This is because:

1) Most folks realize that pages are different (different URL, different look

), and
2) the creation of a new tab is a manual process with a seemingly obvious initial context and post-action context, which is the same . It's the same page, same everything. It's just organized a little.

Honestly, I'm not sure who bitch-slapped you with a tabbed window, but they aren't the spawn of satan. Now, I'm going to click onto a different tab, because I have work to do.