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What about increasing taxes? (Page 2)
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Millennium
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Mar 4, 2005, 06:09 PM
 
Originally posted by roberto blanco:
...which doesn't even come close to justifying a disparity of resources.
That depends. Getting a little less oxygen than you need isn't going to hurt a programmer or even an athlete all that much, but it would really suck to be a scuba diver under those circumstances.
the question of course is, - "why do they want to in the first place?"
Is that relevant?
the irony of course being, that more and more resources have to be "made" artificially "scarce" (monsanto, killer-gene food etc.) to establish ownership. again,- EXACTLY the wrong thing to do.
So get seeds from another source. Monsanto is pure evil, but they are not the only supplier of seed around.
at the level of technology we have now, we really wouldn't have to worry about limited resources, if things were done right and completely rationally.
Right and completely rationally: in other words, by a computer. No human in history, nor any group of humans, has ever acted 'right and completely rationally' all the time. Our minds are capable of processing logic, but they are not bound by it, and any system by which people would be governed has to take this into account.
but then of course, there are always those that want to keep up the disparity (mostly those who'd have a lot to "lose")
Most people couldn't care less about the disparity. All they want is for their way of living -which in no case depends upon this disparity- to remain possible.
good, - then let machines do them.
Given that the technologies for these things are decades away from completion -the AI needed for a cleaning robot can be surprisngly complex- I wonder how you plan to implement that.
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roberto blanco
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Mar 6, 2005, 04:01 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium: That depends. Getting a little less oxygen than you need isn't going to hurt a programmer or even an athlete all that much, but it would really suck to be a scuba diver under those circumstances.
interesting argument, but quite a bit ot in regards to my last point. i wasn't thinking so much of particular instances, as the "natural" predisposition of living organisms not to over-consume (see my next answer for details)

Originally posted by Millennium: Is that relevant?
yes, as matter of fact it is the only thing that's relevant. the over-consumption of resources isn't natural and a really bad argument for deregulation (or regulation). it simply constitutes a imbalance caused by a sense of lack of "self worth" and the compensation thereof. when you really think about it, it's actually a by-product of a "limited resources" philosophy.

Originally posted by Millennium: So get seeds from another source. Monsanto is pure evil, but they are not the only supplier of seed around.
again, a little bit ot for what i was talking about. i am thinking of "the general direction" in which things are "moving" (privatization of otherwise "unlimited" resources) if this continues, we are really set up for a sucky future, imho.

Originally posted by Millennium: ...Our minds are capable of processing logic, but they are not bound by it, and any system by which people would be governed has to take this into account.
yes, but we haven't really tried all possible systems either. maybe things won't be perfect from one second to the other, BUT all organisms change (and so does their behavior), and i don't really believe anything is completely impossible (even if at the moment it might appear improbable)

Originally posted by Millennium: All they want is for their way of living -which in no case depends upon this disparity- to remain possible.
that is quite a "status quo" argument. life is always "possible"...the only question is "in what way"?

Originally posted by Millennium: Given that the technologies for these things are decades away from completion -the AI needed for a cleaning robot can be surprisingly complex- I wonder how you plan to implement that.
one thing that comes to mind immediately, is that with proper preparation and scaleability of the environment, homes, urban areas etc. it wouldn't even take that much advanced ai technology to implement machine driven solutions to menial jobs (cleaning, maybe even construction) you'd definitely have to build the infrastructure with this in mind though.
( Last edited by roberto blanco; Mar 6, 2005 at 04:11 AM. )

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jbartone
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Mar 8, 2005, 01:06 AM
 
Leave my money alone, commie!

Communist governments killed over 100+ million in the 20th century. No thanks. Communism should stay where it belongs, in history.
     
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Mar 15, 2005, 12:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
The major problems with this:
  • How does one determine need in a fair and equitable way?
  • How does one prevent abuses of the system, such as claiming needs which do not in fact exist?
  • Suppose that at the end of all the redistribution, there is a surplus. What happens to it? Conversely, suppose there are not enough resources to cover everyone; how does one decide whose needs go unfulfilled?
  • In a system where needs are taken care of, how does one drive achievement and prevent leeches?
  • Suppose that vital but unattractive areas of an economy (sanitation is a popular example) turn out to not be covered adequately? How does one address this problem?
This is not communism specifically. However, it is the logical conclusion of basic socialism. The result resembles communism closely because communism is a kind of socialism, and could theoretically be used to implement this kind of system. That said, it has been tried in the past, but no implementation has ever managed to solve these problems without degenerating into totalitarianism, at which point it ceases to be communist or socialist.
Well Put.

This "idea" doesn't sound like communism it sounds more like socialism. Everything covered cradle to grave, no one needs to worry about anytyhing since the gov't will take care of it all.

In this type of society NO ONE would be inclined to work hard. I mean if everyone is making the same why should I work harder than the next guy to get the SAME amount of benefit? There would be no progress because no one would be inclined to make any.

The system we have now works. Many times it's the LAZY people in our society who don't want to work and want everything handed to them. This type of society would bankrupt the gov't
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Apr 2, 2005, 03:13 PM
 
Originally posted by jbartone:
Leave my money alone, commie!

Communist governments killed over 100+ million in the 20th century. No thanks. Communism should stay where it belongs, in history.
I'm not talking about communism and killing people. I'm talking about reasonably distributing resources. With a full tax resources could be distributed to where they are needed resp. where they are the most effective. One example is the SUV. Who really needs a SUV? Nobody. This is a completely unreasonable resource waster. If instead we would assign cars to people according to their needs (which means no SUVs at all) would would save a lot of oil and money. We wouldn't have to wage wars for oil which would save lives. And the saved resources could be elsewhere like healthcare. Again saving lives. My proposal would save lives!
If we continue to build our societies around greed and egoism we are going to kill this planet. It's time to think about a change!
     
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Apr 2, 2005, 03:58 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
...we would assign cars to people according to their needs...
No thank you. I think you should let people choose their own cars according to their needs. After all, who knows better, the individual or some committee/government agency?
     
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Apr 2, 2005, 07:40 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
I'm not talking about communism and killing people. I'm talking about reasonably distributing resources. With a full tax resources could be distributed to where they are needed resp. where they are the most effective. One example is the SUV. Who really needs a SUV? Nobody. This is a completely unreasonable resource waster. If instead we would assign cars to people according to their needs (which means no SUVs at all) would would save a lot of oil and money. We wouldn't have to wage wars for oil which would save lives. And the saved resources could be elsewhere like healthcare. Again saving lives. My proposal would save lives!
If we continue to build our societies around greed and egoism we are going to kill this planet. It's time to think about a change!
So wait...earlier in your argument, we have infinite resources when everybody gets what they need. But in our society of "privilege" we have now, resources are wasted by a few at such a rate that humans will become extinct in 60 years. How does that work?

What about all these lives that are going to be "saved"? Will they use more resources too? If RAILhead supported 4 more families with his extra $1.8mil, wouldn't that mean 4 more SUV's and ~16 more people gobbling up resources? He should get a tax break for decreasing the future burden on the gov't and world resources by not having kids, if anything.

Are you really serious about this idea, or is this some way to get some kind of social commentary out of wealthy members here? Try again in about 75-200 years when technology might make a capitalist utopia happen.
     
Millennium
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Apr 2, 2005, 08:00 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
I'm not talking about communism and killing people. I'm talking about reasonably distributing resources. With a full tax resources could be distributed to where they are needed resp. where they are the most effective.
You have, however, made no effort to indicate how this would be determined, how to safeguard this determination process against corruption, or how to account for individual differences, which you or your supporters appear to be completely ignoring. It is this last aspect of your idea which I personally find the most damning, though the first two alone are enough to indicate fundamental flaws in the idea.
One example is the SUV. Who really needs a SUV? Nobody.
I would disagree. in particular, I would cite the example of a doctor who lived in a climate which occasionally receives harsh conditions, but not quite often enough that there is a fast and effective service to deal with it. A real-world example would be the Washington, DC metropolitan area, which is prone to some severe winters but does not have a plowing system which can respond quickly because it's just plain not needed much of the time.

Under such a system, it is true that said doctor would not need an SUV's capabilities very often. When the doctor needs them, however, nothing else will do, and the consequences to that doctor's patients are severe indeed.
This is a completely unreasonable resource waster.
That is only your opinion, and by no means fact. Indeed, I have just provided a counterexample.
If instead we would assign cars to people according to their needs (which means no SUVs at all) would would save a lot of oil and money. We wouldn't have to wage wars for oil which would save lives.
Ah yes, this ridiculous notion that the Middle Eastern wars of the past few decades were all about oil. I suppose people can run the numbers by you till the proverbial cows come home, and you would still fail to see how they don't make sense.
And the saved resources could be elsewhere like healthcare.
Enslaving our doctors without providing them with the means to be constantly on guard and able to respond to any situation. Fascinating.
Again saving lives. My proposal would save lives!
Untrue and irrelevant even if it were. What good is life to a nation of slaves, without the freedom to give it meaning or even a nation which recognizes their status as individuals?
If we continue to build our societies around greed and egoism we are going to kill this planet.
Whereas if we cease to build our societies around achievement, merit, and individuality, we are going to kill everything that makes human life worth living.
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Apr 2, 2005, 09:49 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
If we continue to build our societies around greed and egoism we are going to kill this planet. It's time to think about a change!
Humans are NEVER going to kill the planet. We may kill the possibility for sustainable human
life on the planet but the planet will continue to take care of itself just fine if we disappear.

Your attitude is slightly admirable but still awfully anthro-centric. Geez, to think humans could
actually ruin this planet? What heights of arrogance must you accede to in order to hold this belief.
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Apr 3, 2005, 03:43 AM
 
I would like to see 100% tax rate and everything free
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Millennium
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Apr 3, 2005, 01:08 PM
 
Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Your attitude is slightly admirable but still awfully anthro-centric. Geez, to think humans could actually ruin this planet? What heights of arrogance must you accede to in order to hold this belief.
The word is actually anthropocentric, but I agree. Destroying the actual planet, or all life thereon, is still beyond the reach of humans. That's not to say it'll never be possible -my money's on Gray Goo, a hypothetical nanomachine that does nothing but replicate itself out of whatever materials are at hand- but it's still not yet within our technological prowess. What is within our reach is destroying humanity itself, and probably a big chunk of other lifeforms as we know them, but not life itself.

Mind you, this is still a very serious problem, and the possibility is certainly a frightening one. However, it doesn't do much good to pretend that it's something it isn't. I realize that saying "humanity is going to destroy itself" doesn't sound much different from apocalyptic Christian Right wackos, but that doesn't make it necessarily wrong.
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Apr 3, 2005, 01:22 PM
 
Great! I NEED new tires for my Cessna.
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deedar
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Apr 4, 2005, 12:36 PM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
WRONG grasshopper. Why do you keep trying to pull the kid card? All it does is show you have done NO research on what you're trying to discuss. Sigh. That's why even used the $100 per month example. I can GUARANTEE that a family that WANTS to save $100 each month, CAN. How can I guarantee it? Show me their budget. Show me their bills.

But wait -- what will I do with those numbers? TELL THEM WHERE TO QUIT SPENDING! Keeeeeeee-RIPES! How dare I?!?! Am I so pompous as to state that people should -- dare I say it? -- sacrifice something to better themselves in the future? Yes, I said it. Kill me now.

This "middle-class" you speak of -- and the "lower-class" as well -- thinks they have to drive a shiny new car every four years. They think they have to have wide screen TVs. They have to have all the bells and whistles because, dadgummit, they deserve it. They use credit cards to get what they want now, and spend the next decade (or more) paying it off at 18% to 20% interest. Stupid. Period. All the money those people crap away every month could be going to savings, retirement, and to the benefit of their children.

Remember: good things come to those who wait. The problem? People in this day and age don't believe in waiting -- and that's why only 5% of us are debt free, using our income to make more money, and -- in my family's case -- living on only 70% and giving away the rest.

Maury
Alright -

I happen to know a woman who is 21, barely has a high school diploma, makes $800/month working at Safeway. She has a 1-month old child (will be going back to work in two weeks). If she has to pay for day care, that will be about $600/month (this may be zero if she is taken in by the church - for one year maximum). Her rent is $500/month. No child support for the father, she does get MediCal, food stamps and WIC. Her mother bought her a car, but she must pay for all operating costs.

Ok, genius, without the usual BS she should should have thought about this before, blah,blah, blah, enlighten us as to how she will save $100/month.
     
Shaddim
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Apr 4, 2005, 01:06 PM
 
Originally posted by deedar:
Alright -

I happen to know a woman who is 21, barely has a high school diploma, makes $800/month working at Safeway. She has a 1-month old child (will be going back to work in two weeks). If she has to pay for day care, that will be about $600/month (this may be zero if she is taken in by the church - for one year maximum). Her rent is $500/month. No child support for the father, she does get MediCal, food stamps and WIC. Her mother bought her a car, but she must pay for all operating costs.

Ok, genius, without the usual BS she should should have thought about this before, blah,blah, blah, enlighten us as to how she will save $100/month.
She needs to move back in with her parents, get an educational grant, and go to college or a vocational school.

Also, she needs to hire a good attorney and get the deadbeat dad to pay child support. The kid is his responsibility too.
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Millennium
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Apr 4, 2005, 01:25 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
She needs to move back in with her parents, get an educational grant, and go to college or a vocational school.

Also, she needs to hire a good attorney and get the deadbeat dad to pay child support. The kid is his responsibility too.
Getting a good attorney who'll do this sort of thing pro bono is going to be difficult. However, I do agree that she needs to go after the deadbeat dad. The police might be able to direct her to someone who can help her as far as this goes.
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deedar
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Apr 4, 2005, 03:23 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
She needs to move back in with her parents, get an educational grant, and go to college or a vocational school.

Also, she needs to hire a good attorney and get the deadbeat dad to pay child support. The kid is his responsibility too.
She NEEDS to??? Her father is institutionalized and her mother won't take her back. College is out of the question (trust me) and without help with the baby, vocational school isn't an option. As far as daddy goes, he will probably step up to the plate at some point, but since he is a minimum wage-earner as well, his pockets are quite shallow. She will be lucky to get 200/month. In any event, that's several months out because legal paternity has not been established and the process takes some time.

HIRE a good attorney? Are you kidding?

This is a real situation, BTW, I'm not making this up.
     
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Apr 4, 2005, 03:53 PM
 
Originally posted by deedar:
Alright -

I happen to know a woman who is 21, barely has a high school diploma, makes $800/month working at Safeway. She has a 1-month old child (will be going back to work in two weeks). If she has to pay for day care, that will be about $600/month (this may be zero if she is taken in by the church - for one year maximum). Her rent is $500/month. No child support for the father, she does get MediCal, food stamps and WIC. Her mother bought her a car, but she must pay for all operating costs.

Ok, genius, without the usual BS she should should have thought about this before, blah,blah, blah, enlighten us as to how she will save $100/month.
Hey wow -- old threads come back to life after all!

That said -- genius -- I need to see her budget numbers to see where she's spending her money. You simply listed two or three quite ambiguous items with no real check-book documented payments. That's no good. I need to see numbers. I need to know where she's spending her money. Give me that, and I'll give you $100.

Of course, if your monthly income number is correct, she's only bringing in $9,600 a year, so if she wanted to retire making $20,000 a year -- which would be a hefty quality of life increase in her case -- she'd only need to invest around $71.50 for 40 years.

Get me her numbers, her budget, and I'll help her out. If she doesn't have a written budget, she needs to get one so that she knows where every single penny goes.

I'm being 110% serious and legit, deedar -- get me her numbers and I'll do whatever I can to give her a plan (for free, of course). I do this all the time, and unfortunately, her situation is all too familiar within our counseling circle. PM with her details if she want me to have a go at it.

Maury
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Shaddim
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:09 PM
 
Originally posted by deedar:
She NEEDS to??? Her father is institutionalized and her mother won't take her back. College is out of the question (trust me) and without help with the baby, vocational school isn't an option. As far as daddy goes, he will probably step up to the plate at some point, but since he is a minimum wage-earner as well, his pockets are quite shallow. She will be lucky to get 200/month. In any event, that's several months out because legal paternity has not been established and the process takes some time.

HIRE a good attorney? Are you kidding?

This is a real situation, BTW, I'm not making this up.
Wow, what a s#itty mom. Ok, she needs to move in with some friends to share rent, etc.. Work part time and go to vocational school, she can still get state assistance while working part-time and going to school. Also, if she's religious, it wouldn't hurt to approach a church and see if they have daycare, food bank, and financial assistance programs. If she's that far below to poverty level, the salvation army and rescue ministries will help her out.
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Millennium
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Apr 5, 2005, 01:04 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Wow, what a s#itty mom.
Quite possibly. At the same time, it is not impossible for there to be a good reason behind this refusal to take her back in, provided she's working to get back on her feet. I don't claim to know what such a reason might be, but they do exist sometimes. Conversely -perhaps even more likely- there might be a good reason for the daughter not to go back.

Either way, that door is apparently closed, and it does little good to dwell on it. Fortunately, that is not the only route out of this; many other doors remain open.
Ok, she needs to move in with some friends to share rent, etc..
Assuming that she is in the same locale as deedar, odds are that she's already doing this. If not, though, then you're right; she should. Pooling of resources and all that.

She should still go after the deadbeat dad as well. Pro-bono lawyers can be difficult to find, but it isn't impossible, particularly in deadbeat-dad cases. Everybody hates deadbeat dads. To say that even deedar's $200/month estimate wouldn't be helpful is utter foolishness. If nothing else, it provides for RAILhead's $100/month savings figure right there, plus an extra $100/month which can go directly towards improving this woman's lifestyle and that of her child. This may not seem like a lot of money to deedar, but to someone in her situation it's likely to mean a great deal. A week's worth of food -and healthy food at that- can be bought with that kind of money.
Work part time and go to vocational school, she can still get state assistance while working part-time and going to school.
Agreed. Deedar says that college is out, and I'm reading an undercurrent behind his words that there are academic issues involved in this. That doesn't close the door as tightly as deedar might believe; it is said that there is a college out there for everyone, and with the astounding variety out there this may even be true. However, we'll assume that it's not, and that the college route is closed to her. Once again, however, that is only one door closed out of many possibilities.

Our society -particularly the intelligentsia, but the rest as well- has begun to stigmatize the trades. However, they should not be discounted: blue-collar work is not glamorous, but a skilled laborer of any stripe can be quite successful. Consider, for example, plumbing: it is not the cleanest of jobs, despite the fact that most of the work is indoors. Take a good look at the next bill you get from a plumber, however; it's true that not all of this will go to the actual person, but much if not most of it will. Acquiring skill in a trade takes time, of course, but even in an apprenticeship she stands to make more than she does now.
Also, if she's religious, it wouldn't hurt to approach a church and see if they have daycare, food bank, and financial assistance programs. If she's that far below to poverty level, the salvation army and rescue ministries will help her out.
Although most of the successful private charitable organizations have a basis in one religion or another, not all of them do.

Our society does not inherently prevent people from falling into misfortune, but that is an impossible dream for any society, and there's a shortage of volunteers among the divine. It does not even try to do this, for the most part, because most failed attempts at curing this problem would only make things worse. But what our society can do -indeed, something it is very good at- is to provide escape routes from desperate situations such as the one you describe. Its only real failing as far as that goes is that the paths are not always obvious.
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badidea
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Apr 5, 2005, 09:03 AM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
I'm being 110% serious...
Proof enough that you don't know anything about numbers!



oh and on topic:

the idea is nice but does NOT work!
Why?
Because it would only work if everybody would participate!
How do you want to achieve this?
Build a wall and shoot everybody who tries to escape...

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I am 100% behind capitalism but only if we also care for those who are not able to keep up with the fight - yes, there will always be a few who profitate illegally, that's what we have to deal with)
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Apr 5, 2005, 09:16 AM
 
Originally posted by badidea:
Proof enough that you don't know anything about numbers!

oh and on topic:

the idea is nice but does NOT work!
Why?
Because it would only work if everybody would participate!
How do you want to achieve this?
Build a wall and shoot everybody who tries to escape...

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(I am 100% behind capitalism but only if we also care for those who are not able to keep up with the fight - yes, there will always be a few who profitate illegally, that's what we have to deal with)
I don't know what idea you're referring to, but yes, sticking to a financial plan requires the individual to actually give a rat's arse and want to go through with it. Sadly, most people don't stick with a program and they fail themselves. This is why such a small number of people actually have any real "financial peace" and why marketing credit is one of the biggest business in the world -- especially in America -- today.

But again, for every "sob" story given, I have a success story with pretty much the same numbers -- so attaining financial peace and stability can be done, if the person/family wants it bad enough.

Maury
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That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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badidea
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Apr 5, 2005, 09:38 AM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
I don't know what idea you're referring to...
The original idea this thread was about.
It's a nice idea that could make this world a better place, it just doesn't work! Humans are individuals and egoists - we are no Borgs!
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Shaddim
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Apr 5, 2005, 09:56 AM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
This is why such a small number of people actually have any real "financial peace" and why marketing credit is one of the biggest business in the world -- especially in America -- today.
You a Dave Ramsey fan?
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:14 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
You a Dave Ramsey fan?
Yes, I'm one of his Certified Financial Counsellors, and most of the financial planning we do we do via his processes -- along with those of Burkett. I've been implementing his plan into peoples lives for a long, long time -- and it works. It's no get rich quick scheme, it's not fast, it's not easy -- but it works if you're willing to do it.

Are you "fan" a well?

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Shaddim
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
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Apr 5, 2005, 10:30 AM
 
Originally posted by RAILhead:
Yes, I'm one of his Certified Financial Counsellors, and most of the financial planning we do we do via his processes -- along with those of Burkett. I've been implementing his plan into peoples lives for a long, long time -- and it works. It's no get rich quick scheme, it's not fast, it's not easy -- but it works if you're willing to do it.

Are you "fan" a well?

Maury
Thought so. Yeah, I went to one of his seminars many years ago, it inspired me to get my financial life sorted out. I've been completely debt free for years now, and I'm never going back.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
RAILhead
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: USA
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Apr 5, 2005, 05:04 PM
 
...still waiting on those numbers, deedar...

Maury
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
 
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