[Matsu]

We swear, we curse, and we are often very, very cynical on this board. I don't know what we can say. Everything will be muddled in hysteria, rumor, and anger.

Maybe silence, silence untill the best course can be figured, maybe that is the attitude to have right now. Only we can't post blank screens as defacto moments of silence, and so instead I propose we offer some thoughts, if only to each other. Something to calm the unsteadiness. If, days hence, anyone in any way affected by the disasters of this day should find themselves here, know that we send our prayers-- our great quietness--to you.

Is Silence the only appropriate respect when all words are just a pale illusion of comfort?

Take at least our thoughts. May you have strength and courage.

[pegges]

Our hearts and minds are with the family and friends of the victims of this unspeakable act of indiscriminate terror.

The world is stunned and aghast.

[idjeff]

Prayer would be a wise thing at the moment. Atheists, well, I guess you need to do whatever you think will help.

[Bockie]

May God provide us with patience to not act without thought; with endurance to live beyond this trajedy; with strength to help one another; with love to keep the preciousness of life the focus for living.


My wife and I are giving blood as soon as we can, I urge all who can give to do so.

[nealconner]

It's enormity hasn't sunk in yet. This is a horrible, cowardly act that will result in no less than war.

My prayers are with the families of the victims.

[PowerBookDude]

May God help us all.

And may God bless America.

[Gregg]

Silence is indeed a powerful tribute. I'm sure others have noticed the TV news organizations using silence as a tribute when they break for commercials.

In July, I took my family to Oklahoma City while on vacation. As we approached the memorial, people were talking to each other, but when we decended the stairs, and walked along the grassy berm where the 168 chairs are located, no one spoke a word.

So, I will attempt to disable my "signature" line, and offer a "moment of silence" in honor of the victims of 9-11-01.

.
.
.

[SYN]

We must not be afraid, for that would be letting the people who perpetrated this horrible crime win.

We must live on and try our best to make the ones we lost proud.

My prayers go to all American People.

And yes, may God bless America.

[Earth Mk. II]

Praying is probably one of the few things we can do at this point. There's a terrible loss of life...

I just got back from a rather large and packed Mass at the National Basilica. If you've never been there, it's absolutely huge (largest RC church in the western hemisphere I believe) and it was packed.

It was good... one of the few things that made sense all day. Everything about this is so confusing right now. It's one of the good things about organized religion.

I saw my friends, and was just there with them. Not many words exchanged. Didn't need to.


peace.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Earth Mk. II ]

[VRL]

Originally posted by pegges:
<STRONG>Our hearts and minds are with the family and friends of the victims of this unspeakable act of indiscriminate terror.

The world is stunned and aghast.</STRONG>

Agree.

Likewise, our thoughts and prayers are with all the victims, families, friends. The world must unite.

[chris v]

Originally posted by idjeff:
<STRONG>Prayer would be a wise thing at the moment. Atheists, well, I guess you need to do whatever you think will help.</STRONG>

I don't think anyone's an athiest when confronted with a situation like this. So many innocent lives taken for no reason. Pray also that no more innocent lives are lost in "retaliation," and that somehow, justice prevails. I'm beginning to realize just how much this changes everything.

Yes, pray, and give blood.

peace,
CV

[MikeM32]

I saw it all from the eastward facing 2nd floor windows of my place of work here in New jersey, about 10 miles outside Manhattan.

Everything from the first crash to the second to the collapse of both buildings.

This event is unprecendented, and my prayers do go out to those involved.

But I am both sad and angry, and If it is ever determined who is responsible severe retaliation for this is absolutely mandatory. We must send a message to the world once and for all that we simply won't take this sh_t.

Mike

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by idjeff:
<STRONG>Prayer would be a wise thing at the moment. Atheists, well, I guess you need to do whatever you think will help.</STRONG>

Here's a thought, no in fact two thoughts:

1) If Usama Bin-Laden is behind this. Religion is the cause of it.
2) Where was God in all this? Sleeping?

A moment of silence and heartfelt pain goes out to all of those touched by this horrible horrible incident.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>But I am both sad and angry, and If it is ever determined who is responsible severe retaliation for this is absolutely mandatory. We must send a message to the world once and for all that we simply won't take this sh_t.</STRONG>

Somehow this kind of attitude disturbs me way more than the terrorist attacks altogether.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>Here's a thought, no in fact two thoughts:

1) If Usama Bin-Laden is behind this. Religion is the cause of it.
2) Where was God in all this? Sleeping?

A moment of silence and heartfelt pain goes out to all of those touched by this horrible horrible incident.</STRONG>

Boy you are in total asshole mode tonight aren't you?

People like Bin-Laden hide behind religion. He wanted to do something (maybe) and twisted his religion to fit it.

Religion is not the cause of this. But I think in your asshole mode you can't figure that out.

[Scrod]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>Somehow this kind of attitude disturbs me way more than the terrorist attacks altogether.</STRONG>

So it disturbs you that people are upset about two 100-story office buildings being completely leveled while they were at near-full capacity? What would you suggest they do? Make friends with the terrorists? If anything, it's YOUR attitude that disturbs ME.

[VRL]

Originally posted by Scrod:
<STRONG>

So it disturbs you that people are upset about two 100-story office buildings being completely leveled while they were at near-full capacity? What would you suggest they do? Make friends with the terrorists? If anything, it's YOUR attitude that disturbs ME.</STRONG>

Amen.

These terrorists are evil, not religious or spiritual.

Innocent people have been murdered by cowards. The world will unite, and democracy and freedom will prevail.

[Scott_H]

- - e r i k - - is just some Euro trash here to wag his finger at the US.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>

Boy you are in total asshole mode tonight aren't you?

People like Bin-Laden hide behind religion. He wanted to do something (maybe) and twisted his religion to fit it.

Religion is not the cause of this. But I think in your asshole mode you can't figure that out.</STRONG>

Oh yeah, asshole mode. Funny, same thing I was thinking about you. But this is more than your general stuck-up mode (as displayed in this thread). You're angry. And rightfully so.

Let me explain something to you about religion. There are different extremeties to anything. Also in religion. It's called fanatism. And in Islam, this is ultimately displayed in hatred towards the non-believers and can lead to things like this (supposedly) Jihad. Jihad meaning holy war.

Do you really think revenge solves ANYTHING?

Let's see. We find these terrorists. And they will be found. If not the ones who did it. At least SOMEONE will be held responsible. These get caught and shot (or nuked). And what do you have? Peace? Think again. There's a cause and a effect to everything. And now you have other people angry, perhaps people with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. Things will escalate on a proportional scale. And before you know it: World War focking Three.

Now tell me what attitude scares you the most.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: - - e r i k - - ]

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>- - e r i k - - is just some Euro trash here to wag his finger at the US.</STRONG>

And as for asshole-mode (again).

Now you've pointed your finger back at Europe. Because I channeled rational thoughts through your anger. Suddenly the whole of Europe is trash. Whoa there!

Kindly read my post again. Do you think I take lightly to this tragedy?

When I watched the news I shook like a leaf in the wind. I could not believe what I was seeing. I'm not generally touched by remote incidents. But this was far too major. I honestly feel for the ones directly touched by this.

But I'm discusted, even frightened, at your blind rage. You want to nail someone for this. So bad. And it's scary.

I'm not asking you to kiss and make up with these guys. But yes, get down to their level and you're one of them. Plain and simple.

[Scott_H]

You are a ****ing moron. We will not attack their families, their cities or innocent people. We will attack them. See a terrorist camp. Kill it. Get a thread from someone, Kill them.

I didn't call all of Europe trash. Just you. **** off.

Take you platitudes and hit the road.

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>And as for asshole-mode (again).

Now you've pointed your finger back at Europe. Because I channeled rational thoughts through your anger. Suddenly the whole of Europe is trash. Whoa there!

Kindly read my post again. Do you think I take lightly to this tragedy?

When I watched the news I shook like a leaf in the wind. I could not believe what I was seeing. I'm not generally touched by remote incidents. But this was far too major. I honestly feel for the ones directly touched by this.

But I'm discusted, even frightened, at your blind rage. You want to nail someone for this. So bad. And it's scary.

I'm not asking you to kiss and make up with these guys. But yes, get down to their level and you're one of them. Plain and simple.</STRONG>

[/LIST]

[VRL]

erik - your attitude scares me most. If you allow such murderous acts to go unpunished, the terrorism will most certainly continue. Maybe Norway will be next?

Perhaps it's easy to turn the other cheek when your spouse/child/friends are not among the thousands that have been murdered.

And remember, you live in a "peaceful" Europe, thanks in part to Americans.

Again, our thoughts and prayers to all the victims, families, friends. May justice be appropriate, and swift.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>You are a ****ing moron. We will not attack their families, their cities or innocent people. We will attack them. See a terrorist camp. Kill it. Get a thread from someone, Kill them.

I didn't call all of Europe trash. Just you. **** off.

Take you platitudes and hit the road</STRONG>

Why you have earned your blue stars here, I don't know, but you sure as hell didn't earn them for your eloquentness.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by VRL:
<STRONG>erik - your attitude scares me most. If you allow such murderous acts to go unpunished, the terrorism will most certainly continue. Maybe Norway will be next?</STRONG>

That's totally irrational. Listen to my arguments again.

Originally posted by VRL:
<STRONG>Perhaps it's easy to turn the other cheek when your spouse/child/friends are not among the thousands that have been murdered.</STRONG>

Yes it is. And that's how it should be too. It's to easy to let anger get ahold of you. Didn't you ever see Star Wars? It's that simple. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to war. War leads to death of innocents.

There is nothing I can do to prevent this from happening. America is set on revenge. The posts I've seen here only confirms this to be the general attitude. Some are even targeting Europe for chrissakes.
Take out one terrorist and there are four to avenge him. It's simple math. You just can't get to all of them. And most certainly not without hurting innocents. It's the same with death penalty. Do you really think it has a preventive effect? Think again. Crime is unchanged.

<STRONG>And remember, you live in a "peaceful" Europe, thanks in part to Americans.</STRONG>

This post will again imply that I have something against America. I don't.
Also, the role of America as the "world police" is greatly exaggerated.

AND I should add, I live in a peaceful (this is relative) no thanks to Germany.

<STRONG>Again, our thoughts and prayers to all the victims, families, friends. May justice be appropriate, and swift.</STRONG>

Finally something we can agree on.

I've opened a can of worms here, and it's good. Perhaps some discussion can calm some of you down. Or even make you stop for a second and think.

[VRL]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing."

Taking cheap shots at Germans (as a whole) or any group of people for that matter, is childish and inappropriate. And BTW, just because someone lives in Germany doesn't necessarily mean they approved of the holocaust, or participated. (Also, many foreign-born people make their home in Germany/Europe.)

What is necessary is JUSTICE for the thousands of innocent people who were murdered by a group of cowards. If we all adopted your attitude (erik), we would all eventually become victims of one sort or another. If you doubt terrorism/murder would continue or even increase, you are truly ignorant. History shows that it does. Or have you forgotten Lockerbie, the USS Cole, consulates in Africa, etc? (And not just Americans are killed in such attacks.)

Not once did I claim that America is "world police". Americans have been instrumental in defeating evil/saving human lives. That is a fact.
No one is targeting Europe (except maybe terrorists). Today, there have already been bomb threats in Germany.

Shame on those who are encouraging cowardice and/or indifference.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: VRL ]

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by VRL:
<STRONG>Taking cheap shots at Germans (as a whole) or any group of people for that matter, is childish and inappropriate. And BTW, just because someone lives in Germany doesn't necessarily mean they approved of the holocaust, or participated. (Also, many foreign-born people make their home in Germany/Europe.)</STRONG>

You've proven my point. I rest my case.

[jarinteractive]

I thought we were expressing prayers, etc. not hatred toward each other. it's bad enough that you always are arguing, please don't argue in a thread devoted to prayer, though.

JARinteractive

[VRL]

Actually, I and no American (or German for that matter) that I know is unfairly condemning an "entire group". What is expected is justice. Sec of State Powell and many others are making this very clear, and I agree completely. Furthermore, if a country sanctions this attack (e.g., harbors those involved), they are an enemy of not only the U.S., but of all civilization, I agree. Such terrorists/countries are saying it's okay to murder civilians, and then hide behind others (innocent civilians) in their own countries. Very disturbing, and something no person should tolerate.

eric - you seem to be the only person (in this thread) labeling it as "religious" in nature (generalizations), and making derogatory comments about God, about Germany, etc. It seems you are just trying to start arguments, or maybe taunt Americans, Germans ... or anyone else that responds to you. You have nothing productive to do?

Have you no real empathy or understanding for those who have been victimized/attacked? Don't you have the capacity to understand the grief process? I certainly do.

[VRL]

Originally posted by jarinteractive:
<STRONG>I thought we were expressing prayers, etc. not hatred toward each other. it's bad enough that you always are arguing, please don't argue in a thread devoted to prayer, though.

JARinteractive</STRONG>

You are right. My apologies.

[Millennium]

Let me explain something to you about religion. There are different extremeties to anything. Also in religion. It's called fanatism. And in Islam, this is ultimately displayed in hatred towards the non-believers and can lead to things like this (supposedly) Jihad. Jihad meaning holy war.

Sorry to butt in, but the word jihad does not mean holy war. It means "struggle." That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, it's not even supposed to include war; that was made up by a few psychos who think they can get their way by blowing up buildings.

In fact, they are getting their way. This is not a war against our people; it's a war against our way of life. The people are only, to use another famous terrorist's words, "collateral damage." Every time we give up a basic right for the sake of "security" against these monsters, they win. In a poll taken yesterday that makes me ashamed to be American, two-thirds of the respondents said they would give up basic rights, like free speech and freedom from unreasonable searches, if it meant being protected from terrorists. But this is what they want. In the end, they want us to be like them: oppressed and unfree. And we play right into their gore-stained hands when we give up our rights.

That's the sickest part about this game: the only winning move is not to play.

[EDIT: I really hate UBBCode sometimes...]

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Millennium ]

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by VRL:
<STRONG>Have you no real empathy or understanding for those who have been victimized/attacked? Don't you have the capacity to understand the grief process? I certainly do.</STRONG>

Yes, actually I have. But it saddens me to see the mindless rage, bloodthirst and hatred that this situation has sparked. You would also known if you had read my original post that all my sympathies goes out to those directly affected by this incident.

I don't blame this on religion, but this is (most likely) the case.

As for derogatory comments about god, this by definition is null and void. I can mock non-existing forces as much as different belief-systems can hate eachothers. If this turns out to be an act of Bin Laden, it IS an act of Jihad, the holy war against America. Tell me that religion has nothing to do with it? Please...

I don't generalize and say all religious people (damn near the whole world) are terrorist madmen. I'm saying that everyone is prejudiced. And religion channels it. That's how simple it is.

I respect that people feel the need to believe in something bigger than themselves. But let's face it, this power didn't intervene. And prayer won't help the victims. Blood will, and money. I paid. Will you?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>
Sorry to butt in, but the word jihad does not mean holy war. It means "struggle." That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, it's not even supposed to include war; that was made up by a few psychos who think they can get their way by blowing up buildings.</STRONG>

Obviously you didn't click my link. It's all explained there, including all the different meanings of the word in different dictionaries as well as to islamic scholars.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>In fact, they are getting their way. This is not a war against our people; it's a war against our way of life. The people are only, to use another famous terrorist's words, "collateral damage." Every time we give up a basic right for the sake of "security" against these monsters, they win. In a poll taken yesterday that makes me ashamed to be American, two-thirds of the respondents said they would give up basic rights, like free speech and freedom from unreasonable searches, if it meant being protected from terrorists. But this is what they want. In the end, they want us to be like them: oppressed and unfree. And we play right into their gore-stained hands when we give up our rights.

That's the sickest part about this game: the only winning move is not to play.</STRONG>

That's the most intelligent comment I've heard from you so far. Thanks millennium

[theolein]

Hey erik: Drop it. People are hurting. I come from South Africa where many thousands of people died in the struggle to end apartheid. I am white so I was supposed to be one of the oppressors , and to top it all, white friends of mine died in the war in Namibia which carried on from 1965 till 1989, a lot longer than vietnam. But I left because I couldn't stand the violence and the hatred of other races. People hurt when people die and if it happened in that park in Oslo near to the center and someone you loved was killed you would feel differently.

Enough about that.

-------my prayer-------
Dear Lord , please ease the paths of all the souls who came to you yesterday.
Please ease the pain of those who remain behind and calm their suffering.
Please show those will act in these days a way that brings peace and harmony and end this circle of hatred.

Ahmen.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>Hey erik: Drop it. People are hurting. &lt;snip&gt; People hurt when people die and if it happened in that park in Oslo near to the center and someone you loved was killed you would feel differently.</STRONG>

Why is it that everyone suddenly thinks I'm either out to start a war with america or being indifferent about thousand of victims here? I put my money where my mouth is, do you?

My "agenda", if there is one, is to calm down the war-mongers around here. Notably one of the moderators. I'm sorry if I took some stabs at religion at the same time. It was uncalled for and I'm sorry. Keep praying if that helps you.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: - - e r i k - - ]

[sek929]

Not responding to anybody in this post.

Get off your kness, forget about your god, and go make yourself useful. Give blood, donates some money to relief efforts, etc....

I don't say god bless America, I say Americans bless America.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by sek929:
<STRONG>Not responding to anybody in this post.

Get off your kness, forget about your god, and go make yourself useful. Give blood, donates some money to relief efforts, etc....

I don't say god bless America, I say Americans bless America.</STRONG>

Amen.

[mrfrost]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>- - e r i k - - is just some Euro trash here to wag his finger at the US.</STRONG>

Just making this stupid remark my 500th post.

This is not "U.S. vs Non U.S."

[buon working]

back on track...

I think the "Our Father" is a very good prayer at this time. I can give blood, give money, give support, and give prayers all at the same time.

the shorter version:

Our Father
Who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thine will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil

Amen.

[murbot]

I agree - if there is something you can do, do it. Donate blood, money, yourself.

It amazes me how someone says "I just got out of there, must have been by the grace of god."

If there was a god to "grace" the people of NY, those ****ing planes wouldn't have hit those towers. Or those assholes wouldn't have gotten on those planes.

If it makes you feel better to pray, do it. I'd rather do something useful myself, to actually help those affected.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: murbot ]

[anarkisst]

Originally posted by idjeff:
<STRONG>Prayer would be a wise thing at the moment. Atheists, well, I guess you need to do whatever you think will help.</STRONG>

Yeah, I did the "human" thing...donated blood. I felt soooo much better and now I hope others do this too...whatever your beliefs are.

[Voice of America]

Please God protect our military men and women as the rid the planet of this menace.

[Monique]

God please give strength to the survivors trapped in the buildings to go on until the rescuers can get to them.

And please God bestow your blessings on the innocent lives who were cut short.