[Cipher13]

Originally posted by MikeM32:
<STRONG>I'm totally with Ca$h's original post here.

No time for worrying about waging a "safe payback" and simply taking out whoever is responsible. It's time to send back the message that we will not tolerate this kind of cr_p.

I mean going in and taking out the countries that harbor and support these terrorists, screw the innocent. They killed innocent lives on our side, now it's our turn.

I was disgusted by the footage of these people celebrating the event. These people need to die along with the rest. Women, Children whatever. This is war, and as such we need to retaliate against all those responsible, and all those who harbor or suppport this heinous act.

Mike</STRONG>

Listen to yourselves!

This shouldn't be bringing about such an absolute hatred and disrespect for life; but an appreciation for what we STILL have as first priority.

YOUR innocents are only as innocent as THEIRS!
Why are their innocent women and children different from yours?

They AREN'T.

You're saying screw the innocent - thats probably what they said; albeit, I'm sure they saw their attack as an act of revenge just as you would.

As for those celebrating - by all means; they are not the innocent however. Thats just disgusting.

HOWEVER, ask yourself, do you even know they were celebrating the attack?

Cameraman: "Hey kids! Laugh, cheer, jump! Thats the way..."

Ask yourself - upon an attack upon "them", would you not celebrate?

I know you're going to respond saying "well we didn't kill 20000 people - our reactions to their deaths would be justified". How so?

You justify killing their innocent because they killed your innocent? Thats the same kind of twisted logic that they base their hatred and attack on.

By all means kill all involved; take out the country too if necessary; but avoid the deaths of innocents. Avoid such "collateral damage" as some would call it. By "take out the country", I don't mean nuke the place, but make it a military campaign and declare war if necessary.

Their innocents and your innocents could stand on the same ground and be equal.

Don't judge the many by the few; don't generalise; listen to yourself.

Read what you just wrote.

"KILL INNOCENT WOMEN AND CHILDREN". You just said that.

I think everyone needs to chill and think about this RATIONALLY (and I know that remark will draw flames of "its not your country, its different to you" - the hell it is. I'm as involved as any of you. I have friends in Manhattan; I don't know if they're alive; it has affected me as much as any of you, so don't even think about giving me that crap).

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Cipher13 ]

[Oswald Defense Lawyer]

Any group that would celebrate in the streets over thousands of innocent strangers dying, is an EVIL group of people who have an evil belief system. I see now that THEY ARE and have been the main cause of the trouble in that corner of the world, and I see clearly the hard-headed stuborness and outright evil that the Israelis have been putting up with

Did Americans not celebrate Hiroshima?

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Oswald Defense Lawyer ]

[Millennium]

Just one thing to note about Ghandi...

Yes, he did win. But his opponents were sane people. They could comprehend the idea that peace is not cowardice, that there are more ways to solve a problem than just fighting. And that is why he won in the end; peace will always win, when it can win. But when your opponents do not desire peace, then all the peace in the world will do no good.

Clearly, the people who did this are not sane; they don't understand peaceful means. It's a great shame, but there are people who are simply like that. Nothing wrong with that belief in and of itself, but those who would turn to violence, killing thousands of totally innocent people just to make some twisted kind of point, need to be eradicated. It is not vengeance, and it is not justice. It's a matter of protecting everyone else. And it's a great shame that it must be done. But it must.

I do not say this lightly. I abhor violence, under all but the most extreme circumstances. I'd much rather see the CIA send assassins in when the culprit is found and kill just the ones responsible, rather than using heavy-handed techniques like nukes which would kill innocents along with the guilty. But that may not be possible, and if it isn't, then whatever else happens is a shame but unavoidable.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>Just one thing to note about Ghandi...

Yes, he did win. But his opponents were sane people. They could comprehend the idea that peace is not cowardice, that there are more ways to solve a problem than just fighting. And that is why he won in the end; peace will always win, when it can win. But when your opponents do not desire peace, then all the peace in the world will do no good.</STRONG>

Ghandi also said you should go forward with a good example. What good is it if neither side is sane. Then all we have left is insanity. And sadly, that's where I see this situation headed.

[godzookie2k]

Ok, so sleep ignited an interesting theory.

What if all the men/people responsible for this, went down with those planes?

I mean, think about it. America wants revenge. If the NSA or whoever finds out that there IS no one to get revenge from, what would we do as a country? what would our governemnt do? Doing nothing would no doubt, to the tons of people demanding nukes, etc, seem a little weak. However would we *still* go into afganistan and bomb the hell out of them, *just* to make ourselves FEEL better? If thats the case, wouldn't the terrorists just win in that case?


dunno, just a theory/

nick

[shmerek]

If there is one nuke dropped we (the world) are all ****ed. There is no point in retribution if it means there is nobody left in the end.

[Millennium]

Ghandi also said you should go forward with a good example. What good is it if neither side is sane. Then all we have left is insanity. And sadly, that's where I see this situation headed.

I respect your pacifism. Under ordinary circumstances, I would agree with you completely. But I also believe that this is one of those exceedingly rare cases where pacifism is not realistic. You admit that the people who did this are insane. But I don't think you understand the ramifications of the breed of insanity they harbor. These people will not allow the problem to be solved by peaceful means. They will kill and kill and kill, until either they have killed everyone or they have died themselves.

Just sitting back and letting them kill us does not solve the problem. Giving up our freedoms for the sake of "security" only signals their victory, and worse, even then they will not stop; knowing that they can make our government oppress us if they kill us, they will keep killing to make the government oppress us even more. It is sad that sometimes violence is the only answer. But this has joined one of the mere handful of times in all history where it might be.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
<STRONG>Ok, so sleep ignited an interesting theory.

What if all the men/people responsible for this, went down with those planes?

I mean, think about it. America wants revenge. If the NSA or whoever finds out that there IS no one to get revenge from, what would we do as a country? what would our governemnt do? Doing nothing would no doubt, to the tons of people demanding nukes, etc, seem a little weak. However would we *still* go into afganistan and bomb the hell out of them, *just* to make ourselves FEEL better? If thats the case, wouldn't the terrorists just win in that case?</STRONG>

While this is an interesting theory, it's hardly plausible. The men behind it had to organize this from a central point. There are plenty willing to give their life "for the cause" as witnessed by countless suicide bombings in the middle east. So the leaders don't need to give theirs.

HOWEVER, there is no doubt that America will retaliate, none! Wether they find the responsible or not.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>They will kill and kill and kill, until either they have killed everyone or they have died themselves.</STRONG>

The scary thing is this seems to be the mindset of many of the americans on this board.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by shmerek:
<STRONG>

The scary thing is this seems to be the mindset of many of the americans on this board.</STRONG>

The scariest might be that this is symptomatic for the majority of americans. Even newspaper editorials screams for revenge...

[TNproud2b]

dropping a nuke does not mean the world will end!

Over 200 nukes have been detonated on the surface of the earth and we're still here!

One or two more can only help this situation.

[Kickaha]

Oppenheimer et al established fairly conclusively that a single nuke will not ignite the entire atmosphere.

Right now world opinion (with the notable, and glaring exception of China) is such that I believe we could toss nukes at the perpetrators (not the surrounding population) and be applauded.

How, when all nukes are huge massive things that destroy cities?

Because they're not. Nukes come in various sizes, from ICBM citykillers to small 'backpack' battlefield tactical weapons. The smaller ones take out a few hundred yards in diameter, with extremely low yield. Perfect for a large building or small armed camp.

But the psychological impact would be *MASSIVE*.

"Good lord, they used *NUKES*! They're *SERIOUS*!"

Make no mistake about it, this *IS* a psychological war.

The other weapon of sheer fear that we have in our arsenal is covert assassination, which is currently blocked by Congressional decree. I believe it is time to lift that ban.

We should use any and every weapon we have, as appropriate.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Kickaha ]

[iKevin]

Go MuslimNuker Go! I totally agree. Their entire culture is based on violence and hatred....and it must be stopped!

Also, I'd like to point out something here. Have you noticed how the trouble makers haven't started any crap in Israel today or yesterday?.....#1 reason, they know Israel is looking for a reason to finally get rid of the troublesome bastards.

[Millennium]

By shmerek:

The scary thing is this seems to be the mindset of many of the americans on this board

By Erik:

The scariest might be that this is symptomatic for the majority of americans. Even newspaper editorials screams for revenge...

I very much doubt this. Most Americans only want the guilty to be brought to justice. There are some out there who want to kill those who celebrated; they are a minority (I certainly don't want to kill them, though I lost the last of my sympathy for those who would celebrate the deaths of countless innocents). And only the biggest lunatics want to start leveling nations with no reason. Sadly, they're the ones who are attracting all the attention, because few Americans with views contrary to this are posting, for reasons I do not claim to understand.

I've already stated my views. I want peace. But that cannot be, or this will only happen again. Now we have bin Laden denying involvement; I say he should still be investigated (we already have reason to extradite him anyway, for the bombings of several embassies in previous incidents), but for now, let's consider other possibilities as well.

People assume too much, by assuming this was even a religious group. It could have been any number of people; so many had motives, though we would certainly hope most would never go through with such a terrible thing. You could say anti-globalization groups did it, and that's why they hit Wall Street. Or you could say the WTO did it, to cover up their meetings (which are happenning now). You could say that rather than a religious group, an anti-religion group did it, knowing religion would be blamed and hoping to see it outlawed. Heck; along those lines it could even have been a rival of bin Laden's, knowing he would be blamed (and what better way to take out a rival than to sic the U.S. military on them?) It could have been the government, knowing the people will approve if they grant themselves more Big Brother powers after this. It could have been anti-gun-control groups, out to prove that you don't even need guns to do terrible damage (not a single one of the hijackers had a gun; all of them used knives or box-cutters). It could have been Microsoft, trying to take out Sun, which has offices in the WTC. It could have been Red Hat, trying to save their tanking stock by disrupting the markets. It could have been anyone.

The point is, almost everyone had a motive. But there's a huge difference between motive and guilt. The person or people responsible for this need to be found, and they should pay dearly for what they have done. But until we have found the guilty party, it may be fun to fantasize about the terrible things that can be done to them, but it would be inappropriate to act on them.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>...I'm merely stating that this talk of revenge is an act of blind anger....</STRONG>

It's not revenge you euro-trash ***** . It's protection. See a terrorist camp? Destroy it. Threaten the US? Kill them. This is war. It's that simple.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>dropping a nuke does not mean the world will end!

Over 200 nukes have been detonated on the surface of the earth and we're still here!

One or two more can only help this situation.</STRONG>

How many of those 200 or 2000 or whatever have been dropped on major cities?

Just cause this hunk of rock is here doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things - just ask Japan...

If you use nukes with serious intent, so will "they", and then the rest.

China, Russia, North Korea, Pakistan, Iran, India, and so forth...

How many of those countries would be responsible with them, once given justification to use them? Heh, "responsible".
The justification being "he started it!"

The thing is, how many of those countries have capable delivery platforms? How many functional SS-18's does Russia have prepped? How many of those do NK have? China only has SRBM's and MRBM's... no ICBM's, thank God.

These nuclear attacks would be terrorist like kamikaze missions. A la "The Peacemaker"...

If nukes are used with intent, God help us all...

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>

It's not revenge you euro-trash ***** . It's protection. See a terrorist camp? Destroy it. Threaten the US? Kill them. This is war. It's that simple.</STRONG>

Dude, be nice. No need for racist personal insults. You wanna be called a redneck or a hillbilly?

Try some more diplomacy and tact and you'll be much better recieved :|

Theres no need for this damn infighting. Its pathetic. Did either of you two fighting hit NYC? No? Do either of you condone it? No? Well you're on the same damn side. Get a grip.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>

It's not revenge you euro-trash ***** . It's protection. See a terrorist camp? Destroy it. Threaten the US? Kill them. This is war. It's that simple.</STRONG>

Sh�t man... you need to get off Counter-Strike and UT for some time.

This is no game you know. There is no war...yet.

Go fire off some guys in Team Arena and pretend they're terrorists to vent your anger. Declaring war on anything and everyone merely suggesting that you might not be in your right mind right now, just isn't the way.

Keep cool.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by iKevin:
<STRONG>Go MuslimNuker Go! I totally agree. Their entire culture is based on violence and hatred....and it must be stopped!</STRONG>

Oh. And what better way to stop them by using... violence and hatred! Ta-ta-ta! That'll show them for sure!

[TommyLeeRoth]

scott_h

At least "euro trash" don't go bombing middle-eastern countries over matters that do no concern them, then bitch and moan when someone decides to seek a little revenge.

America has had this coming to them for a very long time.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by TommyLeeRoth:
<STRONG>scott_h

At least "euro trash" don't go bombing middle-eastern countries over matters that do no concern them, then bitch and moan when someone decides to seek a little revenge.

America has had this coming to them for a very long time.</STRONG>

Yea. Blame us. **** you.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>Sh�t man... you need to get off Counter-Strike and UT for some time.

This is no game you know. There is no war...yet.

Go fire off some guys in Team Arena and pretend they're terrorists to vent your anger. Declaring war on anything and everyone merely suggesting that you might not be in your right mind right now, just isn't the way.

Keep cool.</STRONG>

You think this is some kind of joke? Could be 10,000 poeple died yesterday. Don't you get that? Yes it is war. A new kind of war. Time to take the war to them rather than them taking it to us. We know where the camps are. We know where the threats come from. Time to take them out.

[Millennium]

At least "euro trash" don't go bombing middle-eastern countries over matters that do no concern them, then bitch and moan when someone decides to seek a little revenge.

Oh, I love this.

When the US goes into a country to defend its interests or those of its allies (as in Kuwait), we're bullying. But when we don't, we're "not doing our social responsibility to the world."

Could you make up your minds, please?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>Theres no need for this damn infighting. Its pathetic. Did either of you two fighting hit NYC? No? Do either of you condone it? No? Well you're on the same damn side. Get a grip.</STRONG>

It's called difference of opinion ciph. This is a serious matter, and if we can't get a resonable voice to oppose all the "let's kill them all" attitude around here, why should either of us care.

This isn't the matter wether or not we condone terrorists attacks. Because obviously none of us do. Obviously Scott_H has been seriously disturbed by this incident and in a fit of paranoia he thinks everyone is out to get him. As long as their not americans, they're either euro-trash, losers (like Ghandi) or terrorists. And by God, we should nuke'em all!

[TommyLeeRoth]

Nice to see you can handle the truth scott. Get your head out of your unjustifiably patriotic arse and have a good long think about the facts.

[TommyLeeRoth]

Millennium:

When a country attempts to "defend its interests or those of its allies", it usually means that they're bombing the crap out of some country. You expect people that have had US supported wars waged against them to NOT be pissed off? If only the US didn't try to act like world police this most recent incident most probably would not have happened.

[chrisford]

Scott_h

i think i can understand some of your anger, but bear in mind you're a mod here : how can you expect to enforce any sort of civility within these boards when you're seen to be making some of the most appalling, antagonistic remarks?

whatever you're feelings are, try to put them across with at least a modicum of respect for the other contributors. or reconsider your position as a moderator.

chrisford

[iKevin]

--erik-- , So what do you propose? You seem to be all against Military action. Do you just want to sit back, bar up your windows and cower in fear? I don't know how you guys deal with evil in your country, but in America find it and kill it.

[Rickag]

Michael Jennings
"Basically, Jesus Christ's idea of not returning violence with violence means that we can protect ourselves, but that any response must be the true minimum necessary to achieve security."

simonjames

"Turning the other cheek means you'll just get slapped again".

I'm not sure if Michael Jennings was refering to the often quoted statement about turning the other cheek, but this is one of the most misunderstood statements in the Bible.

It was an insult to be back hand slapped in the face. People were never to look at the Romans and Israel elite in the face. What turning the other cheek was meant to convey was "an ACT OF DEFIANCE" to existing authority and to look them in the eye. It was intended to show a resolve to remove them from power and return the country to the inhabitants. Jesus was not a pacifist and was considered a rebel inciting the population to eventually overthrow existing power.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by iKevin:
<STRONG>--erik-- , So what do you propose? You seem to be all against Military action. Do you just want to sit back, bar up your windows and cower in fear? I don't know how you guys deal with evil in your country, but in America find it and kill it.</STRONG>

And this doesn't worry you one bit? Do you really think you can just retaliate and that will be it? Take the situation in the middle east. Take the situation in Northern Ireland. Those are both "unsolvable" conflicts that's lasted for god-knows-how-long. Now take that, apply it to the world, your dear America, and take into account all the mass-destruction weapons that are availible NOT ONLY to you, but to the "enemy". Let's face it. No one will win. Ever.

[shmerek]

For all the blood mongers out there maybe you should take a closer look at the situation with Israel and the Palestininians. It is a constant cycle of attacks and retribution and vice versa. Do you really want the US to get involved in the same sort of cycle? What is needed is a calculated precise response and just because I am saying these words don't label me some sort of anti-american/eurotrash or whatever. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that this could be ended with the heavy bombing of one country/city/target. Depending on the response this could be the beginning of something far worse than anyone has imagined.

[Miami]

that's it. i quit the lounge. seems like it's populated by waco-driven idiots. your hate doesn't do any good to this disaster.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Miami ]

[TommyLeeRoth]

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

[zac4mac]

I don't condone civilian attacks.

IF:
1) Bin Laden is solidly linked to this, he and his organization needs to be completely eliminated.
2) Afghanistan helped, the whole country should suffer.

THEN:
1) Find Bin Laden and kill him and his followers.
2) Inform the city of Kabul to evacuate.
3) Turn Kabul into a glowing ashtray as a warning.

[Millennium]

What is needed is a calculated precise response and just because I am saying these words don't label me some sort of anti-american/eurotrash or whatever.

Far from it; that is exactly the type of response that should be used. I, for one, would love nothing more than to see the government find the guilty party, then send in assassins with orders to kill only those specific people, sparing absolutely all others. Or find some other means of capturing them, with no outside fatalities.

However, that's impossible at this point. Namely because it's illegal for the US to do that, by our own laws. Now granted, Congress made this law and Congress can legislate in an exception, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it happen. But until it does, your ideal is pretty much impossible.

[Judge_Fire]

We have tasted the blood and heat of vengeance, which keeps numerous nations and cultures in it's vicious cycle, decade after decade. Malaysia, Middle East, Northern Ireland, Indonesia, the Hutus and Tutsis, the Chechens and Russians...

If the US now retaliated causing massive civilian casualties, then the cycle would just pick up speed. More generations of people would grow up taught to hate the USA, the butcherer of innocent civilians, and their immoral Asian, Jew and European allies. Scores of volunteers would happily die attempting to get that nuke delivered to your and my front door.

I'm all for action. This needs to be countered. With force.

There's just this dilemma, 1 vs. 2.

1: It is said, that the long term aim of terrorist actions against the US are meant to make it withdraw from Israel, or any other area where it or NATO, or the UN, for that matter, holds an 'unwanted' presence or interest.

To convince the western countries to not care about the attrocities against the innocent people of Afghanistan, or bioweapon manufacturing of Iraq, for example.

To go home scared and whimpering in the face of an enemy that cannot be crushed by supreme firepower.

Giving up now is admitting the terrorists' victory.

2: But as said above, unleashing the beast of war would just sink everyone deeper into the abyss. Most likely, loose networks of terrorists couldn't even be hit. You would be risking WWIII, when N. Korea, China, or Pakistan, or India decide to have an opinion.

So. All I can think of is a massive field operation, a huge show of power that silences anyone witnessing it without so much as touching the innocent.

Absolute Power, Absolute Control and Discipline.

Deploying tens of thousands of fully equipped units to search, pinpoint and eliminate and/or contain any known suspects, or their affiliates, or open supporters of these methods.

All this with a huge, full international presence, so no one would be mistaken it's only the Americans, who are involved. It's the f***in rest of the world coming after them. NY is the most international city on the planet, WTC was one of it's most international buildings. And the victims were civilians.

Maybe it's not humanly possible. Military presence creates huge tension and probably things would just escalate out of hand and you'd be back in point 1.

But I think that is the balance that needs to be maintained. No defeat, but no impotent blind rage, either.

J

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Judge_Fire ]

[iKevin]

No Erik....We will win. I'm not sure of you and your countrymen(not meaning that degrading) but Americans have a unbreaking resolve. We will prevail. And what we hope to accomplish is to let the world know, a strike on us will be so costly it's not worth it.....Hence military action.

At one point in this world people were told to make treaties with Nazi Germany because they were so powerful a confrontation couldn't be won....we see where that lead.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by TommyLeeRoth:
<STRONG>scott_h

At least "euro trash" don't go bombing middle-eastern countries over matters that do no concern them, then bitch and moan when someone decides to seek a little revenge.

America has had this coming to them for a very long time.</STRONG>

The US does way too much of playing mommy to the rest of the world. Acting like a big social worker.

However, in the case of Kuwait, we were protecting our interests and were supported by the Saudis and Kuwaities.

Going further back, we saved Europe (twice). I think the people of France are generally thankful.

NOBODY had this coming. This is horrible.

[anarkisst]

Well, Ive been going through all the threads and reading (excluding some and Scotth) the utter bullsh!t these poosies have to say...you know...I would guess that most of you only were born to see the Gulf "War" and really don't know hwat THIS is all about. It's an attack on USA, our freedom and innocent lives...and if one of those were one of your loved ones on a cell phone saying that they love you and will miss you you may have a different opinion...but probably not.

I guess we'll all have to suffer the real consiquences of this as we'll all go through a lengthly investigation, trial and life sentences imposed on who we believe who purpitrated this ACT OF WAR.

Again I'll post this message I recieved from a friend in NYC....

This is a great E-mail that I received that will make you all proud to be
Americans... It made me feel alot better...

Take Care...
Brian

Hey all, I hope everyone is doing ok, I know I'm a bit shaken. I just
received this and it seemed oddly fitting in light of recent events.


TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, no less, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as
printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does
no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You
talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy,
and you find men on the moon -not once, but several times and safely home
again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to
look at.

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our
streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both
are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the
help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone
else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help
even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

ME? Find them...hunt them down and kill them.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

All you people whining about 'peace' need to do a little growing up for once. Get a clue: we HAD peace, up until yesterday when total @ssholes chose to attack innocent civilians for whatever insane reason.

Once we track down those that are responcible, their ration of 'peace' on this earth gets REVOKED! 'Peace' is something decent civilized people earn. Terrorist jackass nations haven't earned any, and spend way too much time disrupting it for millions of people world wide. It's time to recognize, and declare a state of WAR against all known terrorist states.

We've known for years there are terrorist nations that harbor and sponsor these people, and it's PAST TIME to hold them responcible for the actions committed by the people they sponsor. We need to go into whereever we know there are terrorist training camps, and take them all out. We need to demand that @sshole nations like Afganistan stop hiding people like Ben Laden, and if they don't comply, march in with whatever force needed and take control of the situation ourselves. I don't personally believe in the slaughter of innocent civilians, even in a terrorist nation, but if some occurs as the result of war, place the blame where it should be: on the currupt governments of the places that are bringing down all this crap on their own people, as they've been doing for years.

Stop blaming US foreign policy for everything. US foreign policy has never been anywhere near as bad as historic European Imperialism. These people don't hate us because we've conquered them, as the British or French actually did. They don't deserve any consideration in dictating what our foreign policies are. The truth is, they,like many people in this world, are just jealous of the American way of life, and too many spend thier wasted excuses for lives trying to bring us down to thier miserable levels.

You same nutjob 'peaceniks' would have been sitting around whining "Let's reason with the Nazis... wahhh! Stop all this wanting to beat them in war! Wahhhh! Can't we all just get along with people like Adolph?! "

No, we can't. What you people want would never bring about peace. You don't even know what 'peace' is, if you think it's giving in to the whims of dictators and terrorists.

[abo]

Originally posted by zac4mac:
<STRONG>I don't condone civilian attacks.

IF:
Afghanistan helped, the whole country should suffer.</STRONG>

I'm afraid this would only follow if Afghanistan were a democracy. You can't punish the people for the crimes of its leaders if the people had little to do with the decision who were their leaders.

If it is Bin Laden, what America is justified in doing is going into Afghanistan and eliminating the Afghan leadership.

[scottiB]

I was watching BBC-America's coverage to get a more global (i.e., non-American) perspective. An expert on bin Laden mentioned that, if he did mastermind this, it was a attack, not on the U.S., but against Western civilization. The Saudi Bin Laden, ironically a multi-millionare who received riches through capitalism, I would imagine, was upset (for lack of a better word) with the Americans taking over his homeland during the Gulf War--fighting Arabia's fight for it. He's not concerned with Palestine. He's concerned with maintaining a pristine, Muslim state in accordance with Allah. Bin Laden feels that the West is infringing on that plan.

I would imagine if, through the course of history, the U.K., France, Australia, etc., was the dominant power of democratic capitalism in the 20th century, planes would be chopping down Big Ben, The Eiffel Tower, the Syndey Opera House, etc.

Now, to non-Americans, if this were to happen in your countries, can you honestly say you would be not screaming for vengeance? In a time of peace, let's wipe out around 10,000+ of your populations and hear your civility.

Please, lay off the "Amercia had this coming" schtick. The West is entwined. Trade is entwined. Capitalism is entwined. If Amercia had it coming, all have it coming, and I don't wish this nightmare on anyone.

The only person to blame is the sick bastard who dreamt the attack. Which given a locked room, a Louisville Slugger baseball bat, and ten minutes, I would happily dispatch.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Oswald Defense Lawyer:
<STRONG>

Did Americans not celebrate Hiroshima?

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Oswald Defense Lawyer ]</STRONG>

Get a grip you little priss.

American celebrated the END of WWII (just as your nation did you blatant HYPOCRIT). Hiroshima was an act of war, against a nation we were at war WITH for the past 4 years, and against a nation that had attacked us first.

Also, after Japan surrendered, did we go in and enslave them? No, in fact we were the FIRST ones in with aid, medical care, etc, and proceeded to offer as much aid as we could to our former enemies. I might add, we did the same in Europe. Many German civilians admitted they might have starved, were it not for the mercy of the US... not YOUR prissy little nation.

I realize you obviously don't know much about history, but Japan even became our ally. Even after being in a brutal war with them, in which there were many events that could have stirred up total hatred, we didn't stomp them out of existance. We helped them rebuild and become an even stronger nation.

If you think the same bands of @ssholes that celebrated a random act of terrorism by a bunch of nameless cowards--not a battle in an already declared war--would be ones that anyone in NYC would want to rely on for mercy after the fact, you're dreaming!

Yes, those people are evil. And thier act of wickedness-- celebrating the deaths of perfect strangers in a random cowardly act is evil.

Us beating Japan in a declared war, with both sides knowing the score is hardly the same thing as COWARDS who slaughter innocents. Who don't even have the guts or honor to stand up and declare war, but sneak around like children, and pull the nastiest, most dispicable acts behind everyone's back. If you think those are the same things, you're just as crazy as the terrorists are.

[TommyLeeRoth]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
<STRONG>The truth is, they,like many people in this world, are just jealous of the American way of life, and too many spend thier wasted excuses for lives trying to bring us down to thier miserable levels.</STRONG>

Yea sure, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure they all want to be fat McDonalds-eating MTV-watching morons.

[TNproud2b]

Originally posted by abo:
<STRONG>

I'm afraid this would only follow if Afghanistan were a democracy. You can't punish the people for the crimes of its leaders if the people had little to do with the decision who were their leaders.

If it is Bin Laden, what America is justified in doing is going into Afghanistan and eliminating the Afghan leadership.</STRONG>

I haven't checked, but it wouldn't be the first time innocent civilians were killed because of something stupid their government did. (insert rolleyes smiley here)

I don't know anyone that would lose sleep over the US bombing Afghanistan into a glassy crater. Regardless of whether or not the rest of the world agrees with it.

You want some? take a number, we'll get to you in a minute.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by TommyLeeRoth:
<STRONG>

Yea sure, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure they all want to be fat McDonalds-eating MTV-watching morons.</STRONG>

If they didn't, then let's see them STOP coming here. And actually a lot of people come here from various sh*tholes around the world, and become JUST that.

[sek929]

Originally posted by TommyLeeRoth:
<STRONG>

Yea sure, keep telling yourself that. I'm sure they all want to be fat McDonalds-eating MTV-watching morons.</STRONG>

I'm not fat, I rarely watch MTV and I'm more than likely far more intelligent than you.

I forgot who said it but for all you out-of-countriers.....just imagine the one thing of pride and patriotism in your lives being destroyed by a faceless assailant. Then see how you would like to deal with the situation.

We have stood idly by for far to many years, there is a time for action and that should have been after the first bombimg and if we take no action or weak action now I can only imagine what the next assault will be like. Time to be the world power US, please make us proud to live here again...because this is a blow beneath the belt that noone will soon recover from.

[anarkisst]

Originally posted by TNproud2b:
<STRONG>
You want some? take a number, we'll get to you in a minute.</STRONG>

HAAHAHAH! THAT WAS GOOD!

By the way...the FBI has already arrested dozens of potential suspects being interviewed as I write this. Looks like these terrorists were just as stupid as the others who tried the last WTC bombing. Good, the investigation is moving swiftly and surely...and eventually (I hope) will lead to a bullet in the head of Osama bin Laden and his idiots.

Or, give me that bat....

[TommyLeeRoth]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
<STRONG>

If they didn't, then let's see them STOP coming here. And actually a lot of people come here from various sh*tholes around the world, and become JUST that.</STRONG>

Most of them leave their country because of war, not because they love America so much they want to live there. I doubt they care where they end up, as long as they're safe.

[TNproud2b]

Originally posted by TommyLeeRoth:
<STRONG>

Most of them leave their country because of war, not because they love America so much they want to live there. I doubt they care where they end up, as long as they're safe.</STRONG>

So, just out of curiousity...

do you want me to book the seat beside jeffhot?

This could get expensive, but it's the least I can do for my country.

*edit: the American Express Rewards Points are just icing on the cake. I knda like the night vision goggles for 38,000 points*

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: TNproud2b ]