[Scott_H]

Who ever "they" may be. We don't have to declare war on a country. We can declare war on a person or group. In the past the US declared war on the Barbary pirates. So we can war with a person or group.

That is what we should do now and in the future. Any terrorist group that in the past has sent out what seemed to be a meaningless press release declaring war on the US, we will declare war on them. Any new ones? Same thing. No playing around. You want war? You get it. You have these people in your country? Take cover.

It's the only solution.

[muslimnuker]

So true. I think that, not only should we declare war on any country that has terrorists in it, we should also declare war on any country who celebrates on the death of over 10,000 americans. They also deserve to die. I've seen their happy faces on TV, and I've heard their cries for joy. You know what it is?

Jealousy.

They're jealous that they don't live here. Instead of wishing us all dead, maybe they should just apply for citizenship. But, who cares. Carpet bomb their asses.

- Ca$h

[Spectre666]

Originally posted by muslimnuker:
<STRONG>So true. I think that, not only should we declare war on any country that has terrorists in it,</STRONG>

So you're saying we should declare a civil war too? There are many, many terrorists living in the U.S.A. as we speak, and yes many of them are probably also applauding today's death of thousands of Americans.

If you ask me, the problem is just humanity. The day that mankind is entirely wiped out is the day that the earth will be a better place.

[bewebste]

Originally posted by Spectre666:
<STRONG>
If you ask me, the problem is just humanity. The day that mankind is entirely wiped out is the day that the earth will be a better place.</STRONG>

It truly pains me when I hear someone make a statement like this. Humanity is not the problem; we are not fundamentally flawed. It is only a subsection of people that are the problem, the ones we call "civilized", the ones that insist on a hierarchically structured society with a select few living the grand life on top, some who are living relatively well, and the vast majority of the rest living like pack animals at the bottom. Unfortunately, this subsection has grown in the past several millennia to comprise more that 99% of the world population.

It is only the mentality of dominance over others (other nations, other races, other genders, and other species) as a necessity for living well that needs to go, not all of humanity.

[murbot]

we should also declare war on any country who celebrates on the death of over 10,000 americans. They also deserve to die. I've seen their happy faces on TV, and I've heard their cries for joy.

I saw those people too, and it disgusted me. My immediate thoughts? I'd like to see those same people in a couple of weeks running around screaming - only this time with their ****ing arms blown off. I'll be in the streets partying and throwing candy when I see that.

[zac4mac]

Kind of ironic, I haven't had a TV for over a year but just got one Sunday.
I haven't watched this much TV since my little brother was in Desert Storm.

I don't care how it's done. A nuke would work.
Send in the SEALS from the south and Recon from the north and skin anyone found along the way.
Come in the night like a Destroying Angel and kill their first-born.

[BRussell]

The problem with declaring war is that there were probably about 25 people involved in this, and half of them are already dead.

Who do you bomb? How do you find them? How does a country declare war on 10 people?

[Face Ache]

You should send F16 jet fighters to bomb their police stations.

Oh. Someone already has.

This is a terrible, terrible thing that has occurred. But the people who did this did not do it because "the US is the greatest godamned nation on earth and they're just jealous".

That's a bit silly.

They call these people extremists for a reason. They are completely loopy about &lt;insert cause here&gt;.

Has anyone noticed that the speeches given on CNN could also be used to describe a nuclear attack? That is why it has scared the **** out of the US. Manhattan looks like a nuke hit it.

This is what the start of the end will look like, ladies and gentleman.

And what are you going to do now? Duck every time you hear a plane?

No more disaster movies for the US, that's for sure.

[- - e r i k - -]

...and why we're at it let's declare war on:

� Ca$h
� The old women who always insits on paying in minuscle cash in front of you in the line
� Microsoft
� People who are stupid
��Drivers who can't drive
� People who talk slow
� My boss
� N'Sync, Britney Spears & Christina Aguilera
� The entire hollywood movie industry
� Hypocrites
� Telephone-salesmen
� The guy who came up with the metallic QuickTime 4 interface
� PopUp-bannermakers
� Fox
� Traffic-wardens
� MPAA
� People who whistle and hums ALL THE TIME
� RIAA
� LucasArts
� People who post incomplete / poor quality MP3s on sharing networks. The guys who don't ID tag them should merely be tortured.
� The tobacco-industry
� Women who refuse to go to bed with me.
��Trolls
� People who stop thinking rational when disaster strikes

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by BRussell:
<STRONG>The problem with declaring war is that there were probably about 25 people involved in this, and half of them are already dead.

Who do you bomb? How do you find them? How does a country declare war on 10 people?</STRONG>

The US knows where the terrorist camps are. We just have to take them out. It doesn't matter if they did this today or not. They are a threat to us and that's enough. From this day forward any piss ant that pops his head up and declares "war" on the US has to be dealt with. Not with talking or diplomats. War is war.

Example: Bin Ladin say he didn�t do it but supports it. Fine. We�re at war with him then. Send in the planes. We can't take the risk to Americans. Enough is enough.

[otis52]

There are many, many terrorists living in the U.S.A. as we speak, and yes many of them are probably also applauding today's death of thousands of Americans.

Hell yeh we should kill them to "kill em all let god sort em out". If you applaud the needless death of hundereds.You should be erradicated plain and simple.....

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: otis52 ]

[rjenkinson]

Originally posted by otis52:
<STRONG>Hell yeh we should kill them to "kill em all let god sort em out". If you applaud the needless death of hundereds.You should be erradicated plain and simple.....

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: otis52 ]</STRONG>

and then what? applaud the "necessary" deaths?

-r.

[moki]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>Example: Bin Ladin say he didn�t do it but supports it. Fine. We�re at war with him then. Send in the planes. We can't take the risk to Americans. Enough is enough.</STRONG>

Agreed. It's time for the leaders to lead, the critics to recline in their sofas and criticize, and the bleeding hearts to donate blood.

I was extremely glad that Bush stated he would go after both the terrorists and the countries they reside in. We are indeed at war; it is merely a borderless war.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by otis52:
<STRONG>Hell yeh we should kill them to "kill em all let god sort em out". If you applaud the needless death of hundereds.You should be erradicated plain and simple.....</STRONG>

I first thought this post to be sarcastic. But now I'm not so sure anymore.

So, we should kill them to let God sort them out? Why should we do the dirty work for god? Surely the all-high-and-mighty could take care of this on his own. Or by gosh - he might even have prevented it...

God moves in mysterious ways

(Disclaimer: If you find this post rude and arrogant in a time like this, please concider reading my other posts for my feelings on this case)

[Oswald Defense Lawyer]

I was extremely glad that Bush stated he would go after both the terrorists and the countries they reside in. We are indeed at war; it is merely a borderless war.

So you want the US to nuke Israel?

[DBursey]

The events of yesterday, terrible and tragic as they were, have understandibly elicited outrage and a desire to strike back.

Therein lies the problem with some of the sentiments expressed here. The perpetrators have not as yet been identified. Until they are, speculation regarding the complicity of various groups serves only to advance the cause of hatred and intolerance. Perhaps this was one of the goals of the terrorists.

Further, the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden, one of the early suspects, is not known at this time. He is believed to be harbored somewhere in Afghanistan, but his exact location has eluded US authorities for years.

I have no doubt that the people responsible will be identified and punished. Until then, I hope that cool heads will prevail.

My heart goes out to the victims and to all Americans in this dark hour.

[Scott_H]

This is not a criminal matter. What happened yesterday was not a crime. Yesterday was an act of war. It's time for the US to take the war to those people that train and harbor these terrorist.

Anyone that advocates terrorist attack on the US is a target. Anyone that trains is a target. Anyone who publishes their press release declarations of war is a target.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
[QBAnyone who publishes their press release declarations of war is a target.[/QB]

You better start bombing most of mainstream American media then.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>You better start bombing most of mainstream American media then.</STRONG>

oh god you are such a ****ing asshole. Please just shut the **** up. I'm not in the mood for ****ing pricks like you today.

Please just shut the **** up.

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>You better start bombing most of mainstream American media then.</STRONG>

I don't usually find myself agreeing with Scott, but I am completely with him on this. This was an act of war. You want to declare war on America? OK, fine. Welcome to the big leagues. We have infinetly more resources than a ragtag group of extremists, and now we also have the political will to use it.

As for domestic terrorism: please note that domestic terrorists view themselves as Patriots at war with what they see as government excesses, and most decidedly *not* with the American people. These domestic loons would have applauded the Pentagon attack, but would be angered at the destruction of an American landmark and the taking of tens of thousands of innocent American lives.

As for the argument that complicity somehow devolves to us from supporting Israel - this is such utter bullshit on so many fronts it's hardly worth talking about. These loons in the Middle East were doing exactly the same thing to the British when they were there. And they were doing it to each other beforehand (remember the Assasins? Hashish-crazed lunatics and terrorists that attacked the then-Arab power structure). What do you idiots who claim supporting Israel makes us deserve these attacks propose, anyway? That we completely cut off Israel, and that will make the terrorist threat go away? Think it through, you idiot.

We *never* have celebrated the death of even our worst enemies. And we have never celebrated the death of thousands of innocent civilians. For these people to do so amounts to a declaration of war. And what is the way of life that they're fighting for anyway? Is it represented by the Taliban? By Saudi Arabia? By the Irani clerics? That isn't Islam. Islam is a great and wonderful religion that preaches tolerance and respect for your fellow man. They represent a bastardization of Islam as bad as a heavily-armed, wife-beating, racist Fundamentallist minister represents a bastardization of Christianity.

I agree with Scott - you want to declare war on the US? Fine. But you better be ready to deal with the consequences. And consequences there will be. I have F-18 jets flying patrol over my head right now, because of these pigs. I have had to pull my kids out of daycare at the Prudential building because I FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES. If these dogs want to live like that - fine. But we won't stand for it.

An eye for an eye might leave everyone blind...but we're Americans and we can afford seeing eye dogs. Factor that into your thinking before waging war on the US. You have not seen a Jihad until America starts and ends one.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by dogzilla:
<STRONG>I agree with Scott - you want to declare war on the US? Fine. But you better be ready to deal with the consequences. And consequences there will be. I have F-18 jets flying patrol over my head right now, because of these pigs. I have had to pull my kids out of daycare at the Prudential building because I FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES. If these dogs want to live like that - fine. But we won't stand for it.</STRONG>

Oh dear. I've declared war on America now. On a bulletin board. Geez. I fear for my life.

Please point out which exact post I did that in, and I'll point you to the ones where I declare no disrespect for US or America, and even sympathy for the victims. Hell, I'll even trow in the post I declared my support by paying actual money to fund rescue operations. Just for the heck of it.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>Oh dear. I've declared war on America now. On a bulletin board. Geez. I fear for my life.</STRONG>

Your ego is showing. dogzilla wasn't talking to you at all. He was talking about terrorist groups.

Anyway, what I wanted to say:

Another reason I don't think the military can/should do anything: What was the objective of this action against the US?

With Pearl Harbor, there was a specific objective that could be understood and rationally countered with military strategy.

With this, there was no military objective that can be countered. It was done simply to harm people.

I don't think this is a job for the military. They deal with objectives like taking land, suppressing other armies, etc.

I think this is the CIA's turf. We need to dramatically increase the number of spys working on these issues, and give them a freer hand.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>I'll point you to the ones where I declare no disrespect for US or America, and even sympathy for the victims.</STRONG>

"Even" sympathy for the victims? How very big of you.

[Millennium]

We need to dramatically increase the number of spys working on these issues, and give them a freer hand.

No. Absolutely not. It is not worth giving up our freedoms. You do that, and the terrorists have won. Because in the end, that is what it's about. They want people to be oppressed, to live in terror. And every single right we give away, ostensibly to "protect" ourselves from them, only brings them that much closer to their ultimate victory.

The only way to win this game is to not play it. Yes, it means we're vulnerable. Yes, that's a shame, But if we truly want to be victorious in the face of terrorism, it is the only way.

[HeatMiser]

As far as I'm concerned, this s|-|it yesterday is the single best argument I've yet seen for the U.S. getting the hell out of the Middle East and STAYING OUT, FOR GOOD. Let Israel and Palestine sort their own s|-|it out. Worried about oil? If G.W. has to kill a couple Arctic Fox to drill a hole in Alaska that'll keep innocent U.S. citizens from being killed, I'll vote for it in a heartbeat.

No more U.S.-brokered peace treaties between Israel and Palestine. Nada. Did anyone catch the short interview with Colin Powell this morning...I forget which channel. After stating that the evidence in this case points strongly towards bin Laden's band of nutbags, the interviewer asked how Powell--as the man who most recently worked to create peace between Israel and Palestine--felt about yesterday's actions. His response was chilling, and profoundly saddening.

Sure, let's go after bin Laden now and take care of him once and for all. That's fine. I'm all for it. But don't forget that his entire organization is made up of cells of fanatics all over the world, each one of which is perfectly capable of carrying on without bin Laden at the helm. Anyone familiar with the Hydra? Anyone remember Obi-Wan kenobi's last words to Darth Vader? This is how it'll work.

I realize that there are very powerful political interests in this country that see to it that the U.S. stays involved in negotiations with Israel and Palestine, but *I* say it's time to let them stand or fall on their own.

No more U.S. lives wasted for the sake of someone else's religious war! Enough.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: HeatMiser ]

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>Oh dear. I've declared war on America now. On a bulletin board. Geez. I fear for my life.</STRONG>

"Oh dear"? Do you really talk like that in real life?

FInd a brown paper bag. Sit down. Breathe deeply into it for a minute. Better now?

OK, now here is something that you and the entire world needs to understand. Take this to heart, because it is an important lesson:

Americans have a huge number of military, financial, economic, and political resources. When you kill tens of thousands of Americans and destroy a landmark American structure, you will find that Americans will be unhappy. They will use the aforementioned resources in ways that may you unhappy. This is most likely because killing tens of thousands of Americans makes Americans unhappy, and they will be eager to share that unhappiness with you.

Got it? It may not be admirable, or "right" (whatever *that* means), or honorable, but it *is* the way that things are.

And all this talk of Ghandi is utter bullshit. Ghandi's strategy worked because his opponents viewed him as a human being. Terrorists (and those who cheer their actions) view Americans as infidels who have no right to live. Indeed, they beleive that killing us automatically gains them entry into heaven.

So what do you propose we do to end their attacks? Go on hunger strike? Take long marches? Abandon support for the Israelis? Tell them we love them? This will suddenly make them slap their foreheads and say "Geez - our religious beliefs are completely wrong! These guys are just like us! We better stop blowing up pizza parlors full of children and flying airplanes into their buildings straightaway!"

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>No. Absolutely not. It is not worth giving up our freedoms.</STRONG>

Increasing our counter-terrorism operations does not reduce our freedoms.

HeatMiser: If the terrorists have any objective, it's just what you suggest - to have the US out of the world. We need to continue to be engaged, IMO. The world is a better place with the US actively engaged.

This is what the US-blamers say: "it's your fault. if you didn't meddle in the Middle East, you wouldn't be targets." That's true. But I'd rather be actively engaged and targeted because of it, than withdraw.

[oriak]

Hate is not conquered by hate, but with love!


Bush: please, please don't begin World War III

[Millennium]

Increasing our counter-terrorism operations does not reduce our freedoms.

You think that's how it'll be done? Hardly. The government thinks more along the lines of banning encryption, abridging free speech in myriad ways, increasing warrantless wiretaps, and crap like that. We've seen it before, in Clinton's time, and we'll hear cries for it again. God forbid they'd actually work to attack the root of the problem, rather than just its symptoms.

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by oriak:
<STRONG>Bush: please, please don't begin World War III</STRONG>

This idea needs to be debunked ASAFP. There will be no "WWIII." No country in the world is going to openly stand behind what happened yesterday.

The U.S. need barely flex its little finger to be able to retaliate for this attack. Send in a couple aircraft carriers, a couple destroyers, and systematically bomb Afghanistan and any other suspected terrorist hideout with a couple hundred sorties a day for a couple weeks. 24/7. Get those few operatives we do have in these places to work as hard as they can to locate bin Laden and his cronies. The U.S. has lots of money, lots of bombs, and lots of time.

Any U.S. military response is likely to be highly surgical and precise, not some carpet bombing run over the whole of the Middle East. Don't worry about WWIII, and forget any of this Nostradamus s|-|it, too.

[anarkisst]

I talked to my uncle (85 years old) who enlisted in World War II after Pearl Harbor. Jesus, he had to fight in line to get there. So many of us as Americans then KNEW who the enemy was and he said that we do now!
My uncle;

"Anyone who we have knowledge of who harbors, finances and promotes these criminals are responsible, Art. And in WWII even though the enemy hid within the innocent lives of their country men. We as "freedom fighters" knew that their penalty was death and the cost of those innocent lives were great...we had to send the message...and we should do this now!"

"Retribution here in this situation deals with killing some innocent lives (think Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki) and done quickly (as we all know that war today is this way and will always be)."

"Art, we have to retaliate now before the anger subsides...because in today's world, it seems we see and talk too much about it. These are acts of barbarism. Barbarians don't listen...they'll continue to attack. We have to retaliate now!"

The "soldiers" who have died yesterday were the soldiers of today's world war...firemen, EMT, and policemen...and the innocents who had NO idea what was going to happen to them! The enemy and the ones who harbor them should understand this too. Hopefully, the smart ones will get out of the line of fire in our vengance.

We should not be "pussies" here and now. We have to strike back. This attack proves this.

My correspondence with friends in NYC too has been amazing...More or less I sent an email to a dozen friends I knew in the NYC area and thankfully all returned the message...here's one...and this is for the Canadians who have been helpful in this situation...
"This is a great E-mail that I received that will make you all proud to be
Americans... �It made me feel alot better...
Take Care...
Brian
Hey all, I hope everyone is doing ok, I know I'm a bit shaken. �I just
received this and it seemed oddly fitting in light of recent events.
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, no less, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. �What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as
printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? �Why does
no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You
talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy,
and you find men on the moon -not once, but several times and safely home
again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to
look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. �They are here on our
streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both
are still broke. �I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the
help of other people in trouble. �Can you name me even one time when someone
else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help
even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!

[HeatMiser]

Originally posted by BRussell:
<STRONG>HeatMiser: If the terrorists have any objective, it's just what you suggest - to have the US out of the world. We need to continue to be engaged, IMO. The world is a better place with the US actively engaged.

This is what the US-blamers say: "it's your fault. if you didn't meddle in the Middle East, you wouldn't be targets." That's true. But I'd rather be actively engaged and targeted because of it, than withdraw.</STRONG>

To what end? Why stay engaged there? What we're dealing with there IS NOT a political process. In fact, it seems to me it's exactly why the U.S. has an internal policy of separating church and state. To think that Colin Powell or Jimmy Carter are going to hop a plane to somewhere and suddenly put an end to thousands of years of religious strife is a pipe dream, and the attacks on the United States yesterday prove this, I believe.

I agree that the U.S. needs to stay engaged in countries where there are political struggles going on over freedom and human rights, but there is no way to broker peace between two groups of people who believe that God's given them the deed to a piece of land. No way. Want proof?
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/ame...ack/index.html

[mrfrost]

Erik, if I were you I'd shut up.
Not that I do or don't agree with you but this is not the time I guess.
I am still shocked about this whole affair but reading some of the the posts in this and previous threads have made me think twice about what I'm posting. It is absolutely not possible to get a sane reaction from anyone at this point.
I have no doubt that now I will also be flamed at for whatever reason but I'm not planning to respond.

I just hope as much people as possible are ok and that we all will wake up from this nightmare soon.

Good luck to everyone

[TNproud2b]

"but there is no way to broker peace between two groups of people who believe that God's given them the deed to a piece of land. No way."

take the land from them. problem solved.

next.

[christ]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>

oh god you are such a ****ing asshole. Please just shut the **** up. I'm not in the mood for ****ing pricks like you today.

Please just shut the **** up.</STRONG>

Nice level-headed moderating, as we expect from you.

You want to nuke something, _anything_ to make you feel better. You better be very careful about what you do at this point, because the scariest thing about this whole sick venture is that it looks virtually impossible to stop a repeat, especially now that someone has shown it to be possible. Revenge is all well and good, and might even make you feel better, but for God's sake don't just start nuking indisciminately anyone that you don't like. This way lies MAD.

[anarkisst]

Originally posted by christ:
<STRONG>

Nice level-headed moderating, as we expect from you.

You want to nuke something, _anything_ to make you feel better. You better be very careful about what you do at this point, because the scariest thing about this whole sick venture is that it looks virtually impossible to stop a repeat, especially now that someone has shown it to be possible. Revenge is all well and good, and might even make you feel better, but for God's sake don't just start nuking indisciminately anyone that you don't like. This way lies MAD.</STRONG>

Hmmmmmm. "christ"... I got an idea...let's get the "Solders of God" and seek and destoy all the Muslim infidels....oooops...been done already back with them Crusaders and all...

i'm not for nuking either (stupid) but retaliation IS needed.

Just heard on the news that sources within the FBI may have enough evidence already to arrest suspects involved from cars and material they discovered at the cars found at the airports where the terrorist hijacked the planes....good...I hope.

[finboy]

The only thing that the perpetrators of this will understand is force. In the former Soviet Union, they dealt with hijackers and other terrorists by exterminating them -- they took their cue from Israel. Once someone was identified as a terrorist (or instigator/facilitator) their entire family was assassinated, sometimes quietly, sometimes not. Everyone. That worked well, and prevented recruitment by terrorist groups.

That's the kind of national resolve we're going to have to muster to avoid this kind of thing in the future. Our motto must be "Sh*t comes back tenfold." The real problem here is that the former administration didn't effectively deal with Usama Bin Laden. Whether he did it or not, the fact that he got away with Kenya and Tanzania set the stage for others to challenge the US. He should have been brought to this country years ago and tried for terrorism and/or war crimes.

Scott's right when he says this is war. In war, the normal rules don't apply. Obviously.

[christ]

Originally posted by anarkisst:
<STRONG>

Hmmmmmm. "christ"... I got an idea...let's get the "Solders of God" and seek and destoy all the Muslim infidels....oooops...been done already back with them Crusaders and all...

i'm not for nuking either (stupid) but retaliation IS needed.

Just heard on the news that sources within the FBI may have enough evidence already to arrest suspects involved from cars and material they discovered at the cars found at the airports where the terrorist hijacked the planes....good...I hope.</STRONG>

The unfortunate thing is that it is entirely possible that the perps here were a small band of 20-30 people, and catching and then killing that few people will not assuage Scott (and others of his ilk)'s blood lust. It is no longer important to some who did this, but 'who can we hit as a demonstration of our grief'.

This is scary stuff.

If you start hitting people that you have real or imagined grievances against under cover of this tragedy, then you risk opening the door to ever increasing revenge attacks. My advice to you is to not start picking on folk that share a religion with someone you don't like. The next thing is picking on folk that share a colour with someone you don't like, or gender, or hair colour, or .....

By all means express grief by letting off steam in fora like these, but don't make the mistake of believing that this constitutes a safe way to design foreign policy.

By the way, my name is Chris. T., and I don't have any Soldiers of God that I know about, and even less do I have any 'Solders'.

Calm down.

Find the perps.

Kill the perps.

Find a way to stop it happening again (that doesn't involve complete global annihilation)

Get over it.

It is the only way to survive.

[Voice of America]

If the people of the world want to be safe from US attacks on known terrorist then they need to act now. All over the world people in the countries that harbor these terrorist need to hunt down those that would use their country as a shield. They need to hunt down these terrorist and toss them into the street. Force them out of the cities. Expel then from their country.

The war the US is in now is not a war with the populations around the world. It's a war with known terrorist. We will strike where these terrorist are. If they are not in your city you have no reason to fear the US. If they are then act now and expel them.

It is in your own hands. Do what is right.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Voice of America ]

[christ]

Originally posted by Voice of America:
<STRONG>If the people of the world want to be safe from US attacks on known terrorist then they need to act now. All over the world people in the countries that harbor these terrorist need to hunt down those that would use their country as a shield. They need to hunt down these terrorist and toss them into the street. Force them out of the cities. Expel then from their country.

The war the US is in now is not a war with the populations around the world. It's a war with known terrorist. We will strike where these terrorist are. If they are not in your city you have no reason to fear the US. If they are then act now and expel them.

It is in your own hands. Do what is right.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Voice of America ]</STRONG>

Hunt down? how?

Expel? again - how?

This appears to be a call to vigilantes everywhere to exercise all of theirr grievances, real or imagined, against anyone. All that is needed is 'I thought that they looked like a terrorist, or might have been harbouring someone that might have been a terrorist, or ...'

You presumably want all terrorists killed except those that you agree with (in which case you will call them 'freedom fighters' and arm them and support them, in the interests of 'freedom, truth, justice and the American way') until you stop agreeing with them.

This is dangerous ground you wish to tread - don't go there.

[3.1416]

The government thinks more along the lines of banning encryption, abridging free speech in myriad ways, increasing warrantless wiretaps, and crap like that.

That's probably true, and I will firmly oppose that. However, there are other steps that should be taken immediately that do not limit the freedom of American citizens. For example, one of the more inane policies implemented in the past few years was that any foreign agents recruited by the CIA had to have "clean" human rights records. If you're trying to infiltrate a terrorist group, the people who are going to be able to gain access to it are not going to be Sunday School teachers. We have greatly reduced our human intelligence assets, instead trying to rely on high-tech measures like Echelon. As a result, our government doesn't know where Osama bin Laden is, even though several Western journalists have been able to interview him in person. (No, I'm not saying he's definitely behind these attacks, just pointing out our poor intelligence capabilities). Rather than trying to get involved in every regional conflict around the world, we should concentrate on identifying and preventing threats to our nation and its citizens, as we have clearly failed to do in this case.

[scottiB]

Well, the terrorists now have NATO after them.
-----------

BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- NATO, for the first time ever, has invoked the part of its charter that allows retaliation for any attack against one of its members.

The organization invoked Article Five in support of the United States one day after terrorists destroyed New York's World Trade Center and damaged the Pentagon.

The decision opens the way for NATO military and logistic support to any U.S. retaliation.

In Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell said the statement would allow a possible collective response once the U.S. has identified who was responsible for the attacks.

-------

The Afghans are probably feeling a bit queasy in giving Bin Laden asylum. He's going to find his stuff on the porch and the lock changed one day.

[simifilm]

Can someone explain me what "declaring war" means in this case?

I really don't understand that. Besides that no one knows at the moment who commited this terrible terror attacks I don't see what "declaring war" would actually mean. Does this mean that you just nuke anyone who could be responsible for it. Or that you don't care about juristic procedures? That you take in account the killing of innocent people? If any of this question can be answered with yes I wouldn't really see the difference between this terror act and the so called war. Of course "they started first" and these acts where completely inhumane and evil, but IMO the ultimate difference between a democratic state and a bunch of terrorists is, that the first follows certain rules. If you answer them with their own methods you have already lost.

Sorry, but this is my deepest belief.

[mr. natural]

Originally posted by finboy:
The only thing that the perpetrators of this will understand is force. In the former Soviet Union, they dealt with hijackers and other terrorists by exterminating them -- they took their cue from Israel. Once someone was identified as a terrorist (or instigator/facilitator) their entire family was assassinated, sometimes quietly, sometimes not. Everyone. That worked well, and prevented recruitment by terrorist groups.

None of the above is as easy as suggested. These terrorists are not living in our country (or territory over which we have control). It has been suggested that two of the hijackers were from the United Arab Emirates. Whatever - they may have come from Suadi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Palistine, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc. - how does anyone propose we sashay into another sovereign state and assassinate the entire family? We don't and we can't. And if we dared try very few if any of our special military operatives would make it out alive; besides exciting more young and restless throughout the middle east to offer themselves up for suicide attacks against the infidels.

We are at war with these terrorists but there is no simple way to eradicate this threat. Get real. Very few people on this flora are thinking with their heads. These terrorists are everywhere in the middle east. Of course we will strike back where warranted, but an indiscriminate campaign of counter-terrorism will only breed more unknown terrorists.

This is a war that will be long, bloody and surprising. Welcome to the 21st century and the face of modern war.

One does hope that our response is measured and specific, albeit hellish too. But don't kid yourself that we can do this without sustaining a lot more dead inflicted on our shore or elsewhere we inject our manned forces.

I'm just thankful they didn't think to plow a jet into a nuclear power plant. We are and remain vulnerable to immense catastrophe.

What a frigging mess.

Originally posted by murbot:
<STRONG>

I saw those people too, and it disgusted me. My immediate thoughts? I'd like to see those same people in a couple of weeks running around screaming - only this time with their ****ing arms blown off. I'll be in the streets partying and throwing candy when I see that.</STRONG>

These people see their arms blown off and their families killed every day and have for several years. Jealous or not, who cares? Does their opinion matter to you? Why do they deserve to die?

Does a whole countrry deserve to die because a few horrible people are from there? Isn't that the same way of thinking that the terrorists carry?

[iNub]

I really don't know how I feel about this revenge stuff. Until yesterday, I was one of those "America sucks because we're all capitalist pigs" kind of people, while I ate my fast food and watched my big screen TV. This has put things into perspective for me now. I've been seeing only the bad things about America, and really it's not the government that I was seeing, but the government that I was pointing at. Sure, there's corporate greed, but that's human nature. Seeing that Gordon Sinclair newscast reminded me of what America stands for. We do not want other people to be just like us, like so many people think. I see our international efforts as an outreach to the people that are suffering; not to change them, but to make living better for them.

Yeah, America absorbs a lot of flak from people we help. Much like me recently, they don't know how good they have it. We go to Israel to help these people and what do they do but cheer when thousands of us die? They don't know how hard it will be to survive when our infidel soldiers aren't taking the bullets from guns that would otherwise be aimed at them.

Right now, I do feel exactly what our president has describe as "quiet, unyielding anger." I am inwardly very angry and frustrated about this, because I know I can do little or nothing to "get them back," as it were. The most I can do, from here, is to donate blood and offer my prayers. I am not religious, but it's times like this that we need a higher power. This is too much.

I want so badly to see the people responsible for this punished. Do I want them to die? Probably not, that would be an honor to them. I want to see them degraded and dehumanized beyond anything that has ever been seen. I want to put them in stocks in front of the new Twin Towers I know we will have. I want to see them hurt for every life they took. I want their god to not exist. I want the sun to stop shining on their world. I want to see them cry.

But it doesn't matter what I want. I am part of something that is bigger than me, and this whole is definitely greater than the sum of its parts. We all want something out of this. We need to look for the positive in all this. When we are able to see past this, when it is all said and done, we will emerge victorious. America will step out from the dust and smoke that others have created for us, and we will be tempered and greater than ever before.

[christ]

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>...It's time for the US to take the war to those people that train and harbor these terrorist.
</STRONG>

Nice one Scott - it turns out that these terrorists were trained to fly the jets that they hijacked in the US. Knee jerk reactions like yours, if followed up without consideration, are going to lead to Dubya bombing Jeb. This is not sane. Like in everything else you do, you need to stop, take a deep breath, and THINK before you act. Actions have consequences, and you need to be sure that you understand these consequences before you do something, or encourage someone else to do something, that will be regretted later.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by BRussell:
<STRONG>"Even" sympathy for the victims? How very big of you.</STRONG>

For the love of Bob... Oh never mind...

[Scotttheking]

Yeah, America absorbs a lot of flak from people we help. Much like me recently, they don't know how good they have it. We go to Israel to help these people and what do they do but cheer when thousands of us die? They don't know how hard it will be to survive when our infidel soldiers aren't taking the bullets from guns that would otherwise be aimed at them

The people cheering AREN'T Israelis. Would you care to explain that comment in more detail? I'm not sure I understand it fully.

Nice one Scott - it turns out that these terrorists were trained to fly the jets that they hijacked in the US. Knee jerk reactions like yours, if followed up without consideration, are going to lead to Dubya bombing Jeb. This is not sane. Like in everything else you do, you need to stop, take a deep breath, and THINK before you act. Actions have consequences, and you need to be sure that you understand these consequences before you do something, or encourage someone else to do something, that will be regretted later.

Hehe, I though of that one on Tuesday.

Ok Bush, start your bombing.

[iNub]

The people cheering AREN'T Israelis. Would you care to explain that comment in more detail? I'm not sure I understand it fully.

My apologies, I was under the mistaken impression that we were in Israel backing the Palestines, not the Isrealies (sp). They are in Israel, aren't they? I hadn't paid any attention to this before yesterday.

Again, sorry. I guess you could just say I was ignorant.