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Explain this to me (Page 3)
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mojo2
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Nov 15, 2005, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
4. The next time any of you simple minded people start saying internment camps could be a solution: It's alrady been tried.

Omarska

Still in denial?
I don't deny it must have been absolutely horrible. Both, the massacres and that or those internment camp(s).

But, as far as the US version of internment camp idea is concerned, IF (READ THE BIG "IF"!!!) things ever got so bad here in the USA that Muslims across the nation were being killed on sight by redneck knuckleheads and vigilantes, internment camps would be the only place they could be protected and I'm sure the US government would make the camps as decent and habitable as possible.

Here's a rather nice looking home at one of the relocation camps during WWII and this was SIXTY YEARS AGO!


I've lived in barracks and in tents, in a van and in some pretty humble dwellings. This doesn't seem too bad, actually. And if it would keep me safe from violent AQ members, sure, I'd live there. It's like the Baghdad "Green Zone." You are relatively safe inside there.



http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/9066.htm
( Last edited by mojo2; Nov 15, 2005 at 07:35 PM. )
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
mojo2
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Nov 15, 2005, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by zwiebel_
Hit an run, I guess, is your way. The fact of the matter is that I still get those Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, trying to sell me their 'way'. When was the last time a group of Muslims knocked on your door, trying to sell you Islam? In light of that, let me re-f-raze what you said: your statements are ridiculous.
Try Googling this using the quotation marks I've included here, "Mormon terrorists" and then report back here with the results. HA!

Here's ONE of the 225 results that came back.
Puurrzz
10/15/2005 1:10 PM 4 out of 199

Pt,

Can you explain why only Muslims think that Islam is a religion of peace?

Can you explain why 1.5 billion are doing nothing about the Muslim terrorists?

Can you explain why it's okay for Muslims to oppress other Muslims as well as non Muslims?

Do you know of any Mormon terrorists?

Do you think the Catholics did the right thing by cleaning out their closet of bad priests? Should Muslims do the same, clean out their closets of Muslim terrorists?

Most important question....just what should Muslims be doing to stop terrorism?

may you all get a clue
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/mess...ssionID=465176

EDIT: Here's another comment/question, same site.

Well if "all" communites have their terrorist and they are justifed because they are persecuted and oppressed then why aren't christians who are being oppressed in Dar al Islam using terrorism in their struggle to be free ?

Why aren't the christian palestians engaging in acts of martyrdom against their zionist oppressors and occupiers ?
( Last edited by mojo2; Nov 15, 2005 at 07:53 PM. )
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
Hawkeye_a
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Nov 16, 2005, 12:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by zwiebel_
Hit an run, I guess, is your way. The fact of the matter is that I still get those Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, trying to sell me their 'way'. When was the last time a group of Muslims knocked on your door, trying to sell you Islam? In light of that, let me re-f-raze what you said: your statements are ridiculous.
Ummm...not really. My opinions are primarily based on my experiences from living in the middle east, not what someone else said or what i read in news papers. So speaking on Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses...... it's called freedom of speech. thats what democracy is built on, they dont have any special priveledges that allows them to do that, anyone of any faith, race,etc can. personally i hate door knockers. So now to your question "When was the last time muslims knocked on my door?"..... i'll take that questions in a figurative way as to when/how muslims "sell" their religion....

1. In the UAE(more liberal of the muslim nations), almost on a daily basis during ramadan, there'd be a TV show, where a "person" would be talking to an audience of mostly muslims. The topic would be "why" he converted to islam or something of the such, and then bringup "contradictions" from the bible(most of which wernt true by the way). Oh....you never saw any Christians, Jews, Hindus or Budhists doing anything like that, i guess the death pentaly probably applied to non-muslims to did anything like that.

2. Citizenship(at least in the UAE) in reserved for muslims only, it's not a 'law'/'rule' but thats how it is played out. Cuase i know people who have lived there from even before the country was formed in the early 1970s, who are Christian/Hindu and have not received citizenship. So converting has some rather drastic social and economic benefits. racist ? most definately

3. If you though door knockers were annoying, try to live in a place where there's a mosque on the corner of every street, and when they all do their call to prayer on the loud speakers, it's ...... lets just say....less than melodious. So if you think door knocers are annoying, at least you have the opportunity to shut the door on them, you have that right. I wonder what would happen if non-muslims in the muslim world complained about the noise from mosques. if the hate mongering and being targets of islamic terrorists wernt enough, non muslims dont even have the freeom of speach, let alone the privacy of the air waves. So yeah, i reckon Muslims, as well as eveyone else for that mater, get to experience equality in the free world (which just so happens to have a majority of Christians) and whats even more important, the ability to vote and equal opportunity in every walk of life. Something which ,the muslim world has never had, and from the looks of it, probably will never have. encompassing racism ? yes. Anything done by the muslim population to change it ? nothing whatsoever.
     
von Wrangell
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Nov 16, 2005, 07:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
2. Citizenship(at least in the UAE) in reserved for muslims only, it's not a 'law'/'rule' but thats how it is played out. Cuase i know people who have lived there from even before the country was formed in the early 1970s, who are Christian/Hindu and have not received citizenship. So converting has some rather drastic social and economic benefits. racist ? most definately
Yet you support Israel who has the same (or at least very similar laws)? Are they racist as well then? Or do they get special treatment from you?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Taliesin
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Nov 16, 2005, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
Yes, we are fully aware of what the Church did 200-500 years ago. Which is why.....repeat after me now..... we went through our reformations, the church evolved and changed. Why ? because the followers of christianity wanted teh change.
What actually happened was that the catholic church lost the long internal fight against the secular states, the violence though remained the same, it just shifted its justification and operations from religion and holy armies to nationalism and national armies.

What happened was that most europeans lost their belief in God and religion, understandable considering the long civil-war between protestant and catholic christians and slowly but surely turned toward secularism and saw it as a better mechanism to achieve their worldly goals, but did the violence stop with that development?

No, the violence even grew with the efficiency of modern propaganda, taxes, state-organsation, economy and technology. For a while Europe could deflect that violence to the outside-world in the form of colonialism, but soon the world became too small and the rival states came into conflict and so the violence returned to Europe to express itself in numerous petty wars that found their peaks in ww1 and ww2, including a huge genocide on jews.

The march of history is the march of violence or rather the march against violence, it's a fundamental part of humanity and it always finds a channel, be it religious, nationalistic, criminal or domestic.

But back on topic.

Pakistan was part of the british colony India, and it were the Brits that codified a law that declared it a capital crime, to be punished with death, to desecrate any religious symbols, scriptures or places of worship, and since Pakistan overtook most of the british law-system, when it gained independence, the law for blasphemy was also taken over, and since it resembled a similar law from the sharia-law that was developed with the help of the Hadith-collections...

Islamically speaking though, there is no justification to react to an alleged crime with another crime and espescially no justification for a mob to judge and exact punishment. In fact the Quran calls to carefully be on the guard against the devil and to suppress/restrain anger and the overly emotional reactions following thereof.

Taliesin
     
Hawkeye_a
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Nov 16, 2005, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Yet you support Israel who has the same (or at least very similar laws)? Are they racist as well then? Or do they get special treatment from you?
Yes i support Israel. And no they dont get special treatment from me. I respect their right to control and live in that region(Israel), just as i support the right for Tibet to exist under Budhists, and the Vatican to exist under Catholics and S.Arabia to exist under Muslim control.

IF Israel were to offer full citizenship to the Palestineans, they would undoubtely loose control of that area after being swamped with muslims moving into the region, and then they'd end up with conflicts like in Cyprus, Kashmir, etc, with "sepratists".

The difference ? the Jewish people built that region and Jerusalem, and in the last 50 years have developed it a lot more than the Palestineans did theirs. the UAE was a barren wasteland until the 1970s, when it was built on the back of everyone including an overwhelming majority of foreign labourers, i beleive they deserve deserve a piece of the pie.

And again with the Israel thing ? get used to it. A Jewish state deservs every right to exist in that region under Jewish control, especially after being kicked out by invading muslims. In fact, since it was the birth place of Christianity, christians probably have a great right to control that region than muslims do. Palestineans, Arabs and Muslims staking claim to jerusalem have as much right to do so as Chineeses staking claim to Mecca and Medina. Deal with it, it's such a tiny sliver of land, you cant possibly be so gready that you'd want to deny the entire Jewish people a country on their ancestoral home ? oh wait....any claim muslims around the world make on territory is justified, right ?
     
von Wrangell
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Nov 16, 2005, 10:43 AM
 
You didn't answer my questions. Want another try?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Taliesin
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Nov 16, 2005, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
And again with the Israel thing ? get used to it. A Jewish state deservs every right to exist in that region under Jewish control, especially after being kicked out by invading muslims. In fact, since it was the birth place of Christianity, christians probably have a great right to control that region than muslims do. Palestineans, Arabs and Muslims staking claim to jerusalem have as much right to do so as Chineeses staking claim to Mecca and Medina. Deal with it, it's such a tiny sliver of land, you cant possibly be so gready that you'd want to deny the entire Jewish people a country on their ancestoral home ? oh wait....any claim muslims around the world make on territory is justified, right ?
I also support Israel minus Gaza, Westbank and Golan, and even understand the interest of Israel to maintain a jewish predominance in Israel with the help of discriminating laws, but that doesn't mean that you can invent history so that it suits your personal ideology:
The jews were kicked out by the pagan roman empire, and allowed back to Jerusalem by muslims, until christian crusaders conquered Jerusalem and killed muslims and jews en masse in Jerusalem. Then jews were again invited by muslims to Jerusalem and elsewhere in the islamic world, after they were persecuted and expelled by spanish christians. Sure the ottoman-empire had economic interests in granting jews a safe haven and not just out of love, but still...

Taliesin
     
zwiebel_
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Nov 16, 2005, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
Try Googling this using the quotation marks I've included here, "Mormon terrorists" and then report back here with the results. HA!
I do not know what you were referring to, but the issue was the alleged "Islamic conquest". The word terrorist never came up.
     
zwiebel_
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Nov 16, 2005, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
Ummm...not really. My opinions are primarily based on my experiences from living in the middle east, not what someone else said or what i read in news papers. So speaking on Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses...... it's called freedom of speech. thats what democracy is built on, they dont have any special priveledges that allows them to do that, anyone of any faith, race,etc can. personally i hate door knockers. So now to your question "When was the last time muslims knocked on my door?"..... i'll take that questions in a figurative way as to when/how muslims "sell" their religion....

1. In the UAE(more liberal of the muslim nations), almost on a daily basis during ramadan, there'd be a TV show, where a "person" would be talking to an audience of mostly muslims. The topic would be "why" he converted to islam or something of the such, and then bringup "contradictions" from the bible(most of which wernt true by the way). Oh....you never saw any Christians, Jews, Hindus or Budhists doing anything like that, i guess the death pentaly probably applied to non-muslims to did anything like that.

2. Citizenship(at least in the UAE) in reserved for muslims only, it's not a 'law'/'rule' but thats how it is played out. Cuase i know people who have lived there from even before the country was formed in the early 1970s, who are Christian/Hindu and have not received citizenship. So converting has some rather drastic social and economic benefits. racist ? most definately

3. If you though door knockers were annoying, try to live in a place where there's a mosque on the corner of every street, and when they all do their call to prayer on the loud speakers, it's ...... lets just say....less than melodious. So if you think door knocers are annoying, at least you have the opportunity to shut the door on them, you have that right. I wonder what would happen if non-muslims in the muslim world complained about the noise from mosques. if the hate mongering and being targets of islamic terrorists wernt enough, non muslims dont even have the freeom of speach, let alone the privacy of the air waves. So yeah, i reckon Muslims, as well as eveyone else for that mater, get to experience equality in the free world (which just so happens to have a majority of Christians) and whats even more important, the ability to vote and equal opportunity in every walk of life. Something which ,the muslim world has never had, and from the looks of it, probably will never have. encompassing racism ? yes. Anything done by the muslim population to change it ? nothing whatsoever.

All valid points. Nontheless, the question remains how middle eastern countries, their regimes, religious views, etc. translate to the people of Bosnia?
In regards to freedom of speech, during the socialist times, any negative comments directed towards the government, president, communism, etc. would have landed you on an island off the Croatian coast, smashing rocks until the end of time.
Currently, I do not see or know of any impediment of freedom of speech in Bosnia. You have to realize that Bosnian Muslims are lightyears different then middle eastern Muslims (not all), and do indeed the western view of life and family, just like the Christian population (except maybe the serbs). Off course, you'll have the fundamentalists as well, but which religion/society does not?
     
Hawkeye_a
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Nov 16, 2005, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
You didn't answer my questions. Want another try?
No they(Israelis) are not racist, im sure you have some like anywhere else, i cant vouch for every Israeli here. There are muslims and arabs living freely(according to that BBC report i brought up awhile ago) and even serving in the Israeli army, with full citizenship,etc. And no they dont get "special" treatment from me.

Taliesin, you support Israel ? isnt " Gaza, Westbank and Golan" what Israel is today ? if those were taken away, whats left ? Also, i think the fact that Israel recently pulled out of Gaza, is a step i nthe right direction, no ? And what has Hammas, Iran, etc said after that ? "Israel needs to be wiped off the map" ? please elaborate.

zwiebel_, agreed i am not criticizing Bosnia, it's still in the reconstruction phase if u ask me. but u asked about door knockers and their equivalent in the muslim world. I was also addressing the unconditional negative view of the west by some on the posters here regarding their responce to the Balkans. If the west had done nothing, they'd be bitching. when we did do something it wasnt fast enough. very pecemistic if you ask me, especially considering that no one "should" expect help if and when they want it. the fact that it was given with such an overwhelming support, albeit a bit delayed, should at least warrant some form of gratitude instead of constant criticizm.

Cheers
     
von Wrangell
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Nov 16, 2005, 10:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
No they(Israelis) are not racist, im sure you have some like anywhere else, i cant vouch for every Israeli here. There are muslims and arabs living freely(according to that BBC report i brought up awhile ago) and even serving in the Israeli army, with full citizenship,etc. And no they dont get "special" treatment from me.
You said above: "Citizenship(at least in the UAE) in reserved for muslims only, it's not a 'law'/'rule' but thats how it is played out. ...... So converting has some rather drastic social and economic benefits. racist ? most definately"

This is very much similar to how it is in Israel. A Jew gets financial and social help in moving to Israel no matter where he is from. I on the other hand would most likely not even be allowed to move to Israel. Isn't that just as racist?
Taliesin, you support Israel ? isnt " Gaza, Westbank and Golan" what Israel is today ? if those were taken away, whats left ? Also, i think the fact that Israel recently pulled out of Gaza, is a step i nthe right direction, no ? And what has Hammas, Iran, etc said after that ? "Israel needs to be wiped off the map" ? please elaborate.
1. What is "Hammas"?
2. Study a map for once. Without Gaze, the West Bank and Golan Israel would have what they originally got. They'd actually still have more than they originally got.

the fact that it was given with such an overwhelming support, albeit a bit delayed, should at least warrant some form of gratitude instead of constant criticizm.

Cheers
It was not overwhelming. And it was more than "a bit delayed". And the UN troops who were there from early on did not have the authority to help as much as was needed. I have to ask. How much do you know about the Balkan wars?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Hawkeye_a
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Nov 17, 2005, 05:00 AM
 
Well, with citizenship and social help im sure thats thew ay it works out. i know Jewish ppl are obligated to serve in the israeli army,etc. And it is a 'safe haven' for Jews. If by that you mean racist, then yeah. but dont you think you should be more concerned with racism in the muslim world, seeing as how you are muslim ? I mean.... you/we should be changing our own socieites for the better, right ? i can point to the muslim world and criticize them, but what good is that if the U.S./Australia werejust as bad. If they were, id strive to change that personally.

But as a muslim, you complaining about israel is rather....hypocritical given the racist nature of policies and governments in the muslim world. But as faras israel supporting jewish people.....i dontthink they have banned the possibility of christians/muslims becoming citizens, am i right ? compare that to...S.Arabia ?

1. Hammas ? I hate to generalize...but theyre lumped together with AQ, JI,etc to me. terrorists, trouble makers, murderers.
2. Really ? well i dont know the paticulars of that region (since its constantly changing ) but i did live in Amman, Jordan just across the way. But as far as Israel, i think they should have what they originally got, as well as Jerusalem. Apart from that nether the israelis or palestineans need to fight for land. if u ask me, once that is established, a "peace process" can begin. but with groups like hamms wantingto push the israelis out completely, i dont think peace can be acheived. anyway....

As far as the balkans...how much do i know ? i dont know the names and dates of it all. But i do know the conflict spans centuries if not millenia between Chrisendom and the Muslim world. And in recent history, due to the hanes crimes of the non-muslim side, the US and EU responded appropriately to a criminal and his regime who operated on our side of the fence. Milocevich and his regime are through, hes in court.....what say you about the "delayed" responce towards hammas, AQ and JI ? seems like thats a couple of decades too late eh ?

Oh and i do support the statehood of Palestine.
     
von Wrangell
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Nov 17, 2005, 07:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
Well, with citizenship and social help im sure thats thew ay it works out. i know Jewish ppl are obligated to serve in the israeli army,etc. And it is a 'safe haven' for Jews. If by that you mean racist, then yeah. but dont you think you should be more concerned with racism in the muslim world, seeing as how you are muslim ? I mean.... you/we should be changing our own socieites for the better, right ? i can point to the muslim world and criticize them, but what good is that if the U.S./Australia werejust as bad. If they were, id strive to change that personally.
Ahhhh, the hypocrisy....
But as a muslim, you complaining about israel is rather....hypocritical given the racist nature of policies and governments in the muslim world. But as faras israel supporting jewish people.....i dontthink they have banned the possibility of christians/muslims becoming citizens, am i right ? compare that to...S.Arabia ?
Why is it hypocritical? Do you know if I do anything about racism in the Muslim world? And why is it hypocritical of me to point out that another nations does almost the exact same thing you are blasting a Muslim nation for?
1. Hammas ? I hate to generalize...but theyre lumped together with AQ, JI,etc to me. terrorists, trouble makers, murderers.
Oh, you mean Hamas. Got it.
2. Really ? well i dont know the paticulars of that region (since its constantly changing ) but i did live in Amman, Jordan just across the way. But as far as Israel, i think they should have what they originally got, as well as Jerusalem. Apart from that nether the israelis or palestineans need to fight for land. if u ask me, once that is established, a "peace process" can begin. but with groups like hamms wantingto push the israelis out completely, i dont think peace can be acheived. anyway....
If you had said split Jerusalem or put it under international jurisdiction I'd have agreed with you.
As far as the balkans...how much do i know ? i dont know the names and dates of it all. But i do know the conflict spans centuries if not millenia between Chrisendom and the Muslim world. And in recent history, due to the hanes crimes of the non-muslim side, the US and EU responded appropriately to a criminal and his regime who operated on our side of the fence. Milocevich and his regime are through, hes in court.....what say you about the "delayed" responce towards hammas, AQ and JI ? seems like thats a couple of decades too late eh ?
Wrong. First of it's impossible for it to "span millenia". Neither Christianity nor Islam is that old. Second the conflict was played by the Serbs as a conflict between Christianity and Islam. Unfortunately for them the Christian Croats didn't agree because they both fought for their independence as well as helped the Bosniaks. So, keep believing the myth created by Milosevic as an excuse to kill the Bosniaks. Keep trying to blame the victims of an attempted genocide.

The EU and US didn't respond appropriately. zwiebel has shown you that. I saw their response with my own eyes and it wasn't approprate to what was happening. They responded when they couldn't do anything else and responded at the latest possible time. The genocide and ethnic cleansing had already begun a long time ago. So the next time you want to blame the victims like you've done in the past, read up on the "names and dates of it all". Because blindly defending someone just because he's a Christian makes you just as bad as those who blindly defend AQ, Hamas etc.
Oh and i do support the statehood of Palestine.
Elaborate please.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Taliesin
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Nov 17, 2005, 07:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Taliesin, you support Israel ? isnt " Gaza, Westbank and Golan" what Israel is today ? if those were taken away, whats left ? Also, i think the fact that Israel recently pulled out of Gaza, is a step i nthe right direction, no ? And what has Hammas, Iran, etc said after that ? "Israel needs to be wiped off the map" ? please elaborate.
Eventhough I view the creation of Israel as illegal and immoral and criminal, and I have a lot of criticism against Israel's treatment of arabs (jewish and even more muslim) in Israel but much more regarding the palestinians in Gaza and Westbank, I support the idea of an Israel within the boundaries of pre-67 and sympathise with the nostalgic idea of jews having a state where they can rule over themselves, but Gaza, Westbank and Golan are occupied areas and not part of Israel and have to be let into freedom.

Gaza's withdrawal was indeed a step in the right direction, if it isn't just a maneuver to try to hold onto the Westbank. In order to make that step worthwhile Israel has to open the borders of Gaza for export-import-trade and to allow a port and airport to be build and independently managed... Otherwise it would just be a prison.

Iran's president just repeated what was Iran's longterm-foreign-policy-goal since the revolution and Hamas, like every radical group has a maximum goal, but lately Hamas seems to be more inclined to compromise. Radical groups usually tend to gain major support if the situation of the masses is hard and unbearable, and they lose support when the situation betters significantly and if a workable perspective and alternative is offered.
That's why radical groups try to provoce the enemy to lose their restraint and to hit back disproportionately, and that's why Israel has to be sensible and continue the peace-process despite the provocations, but currently it's doing the opposite, calling the palestinian authority to achive the impossible and to dismantle the militias, eventhough Israel knows quite well that the palestinian authority has not enough structure and power to do so, without causing a civil-war.

The right way to go about it would be to help the palestinian to build up a secular state and to continue the peace-process and to work toward a functioning palestinian economy... until the palestinian state is strong enough to rein in the militias and to offer the fighters positions in the military and police, off course only after thorough instruction and secular education and controlled so that no shadow-structures develop...


Taliesin
     
Doofy
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Nov 17, 2005, 07:51 AM
 
vW: Your sig seems unislamic.
What's this "we" business? I thought the only guy in a position to judge anything was an "I" in your religion. Or are Simon Cowell and Sharon Osbourne going to be drafted in to help or something?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
 
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