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ntsc · Jan 12, 2002, 10:59 AM

There is a bug in Quartz window manager which causes the selected window not always the frontmost window. For example Mail, has the unfortunate habit of throwing itself in front of the user if an error dialogue bix comes up, however it is the frontmost window and it is not selected, why has Apple yet to fix this. Are they not aware of it or is this some sort this is a feature not a bug type thing?

Sine · Jan 12, 2002, 11:44 AM

Not sure here.. but can you make your sig bigger?

Xeo · Jan 12, 2002, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Sine:
Not sure here.. but can you make your sig bigger?

No crap. ntsc, please read this thread for the current sig guidelines.

graffix · Jan 12, 2002, 12:31 PM

I think this is a 'feature' of the OS, since now each window is it's own 'entity', and isn't tied to the owner application's layer (so you can layer windows from different applications, unlike OS9.x).
It appears that the system is functioning properly, though it probably would be less confusing if the error window had focus when it appeared.
I would classify this as more of a 'quirk' than a bug... OSX still has a lot of quirks to work out before it's as comfortable of a computing experience as OS9.
cheers.
g.

Oink · Jan 12, 2002, 12:37 PM

It will take a lot more for apple to admit its mistakes... Just look at the one button mice.

Millennium · Jan 12, 2002, 12:45 PM

I have seen what you are talking about, and indeed, it is very annoying. Worse, because clicking the frontmost window won't select it; you have to get at the window behind it, select that to bring it back to the front, and then select the new window again.

However, I don't think you realize just how difficult something like this probably is to fix. First off, before you can fix the problem, you have to know what it is. The window thing is not really the problem; it's actually a symptom of a problem in the code (as are all bugs in all software; what the user sees as a problem is really just a manifestation of a deeper problem in the code). And unless you can find a way that's 100% guatanteed to trigger the bug every time (I have yet to be able to do this), you can't trace it back to a particular problem.

My suggestion, for now, would be to experiment more. See if you can find a way, as I mentioned, which will always trigger the bug. Once you have that in hand, you can give it to Apple, which will then be better-equipped to handle the problem.

wallinbl · Jan 12, 2002, 01:57 PM

Yep, quite annoying. This is an issue on Windows and some Linux WMs as well.

I've often enjoyed playing find the error message on Windows. They're best when the window is opened as modal (meaning nothing else in the application can do anything at all until the window is closed). When they're modal and behind the main app window, you're screwed.

MacGorilla · Jan 12, 2002, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Oink:
It will take a lot more for apple to admit its mistakes... Just look at the one button mice.

Why is the one button mouse a mistake? For 99% of all users, the Mac OS is so easy you don't need two buttons. I came from the PC world to the Mac in 1997 and the one button mouse never bothered me; everything was so easy to do with one button!

With Mac OS X I got a two button mouse because it makes working in X Windows easier.

BTP · Jan 12, 2002, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Oink:
It will take a lot more for apple to admit its mistakes... Just look at the one button mice.

It is not a mistake, it is design. Apple could easily adopt a 2-button mouse as many have done. The 'control' key brings up the available functions. They obviously keep a single button mouse for their own reasons, likely the simplicity. Something you don't like is not necessarily a mistake.

Mactoid · Jan 12, 2002, 03:59 PM

I though that bug was fixed. It used to be very annoying, but I can't remember seeing it since 10.1.2 came out.

Oink · Jan 12, 2002, 04:01 PM

It is not a mistake, it is design. Apple could easily adopt a 2-button mouse as many have done. The 'control' key brings up the available functions. They obviously keep a single button mouse for their own reasons, likely the simplicity. Something you don't like is not necessarily a mistake.

"mistake" is a kinder word than a bug. Simplicity has not been an apple's concern in years. Just look at OS X. I am a waiting in line UI-AMATEUR. Don't believe what you were told. Stylistic eye candies are not SIMPLICITY in action. One button mouse is a stupid way to navigate. About control key as a substitute for multi buttons mouse. That's like saying DOS is perfectly sufficient, a GUI system is unnecessary.

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Oink ]

BTP · Jan 12, 2002, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Oink:


"mistake" is a kinder word than a bug. Simplicity has not been an apple's concern in years. Just look at OS X. I am a UI designer. Don't believe what you were told. Stylistic eye candies are not SIMPLICITY in action. One button mouse is a stupid way to navigate. About control key as a substitute for multi buttons mouse. That's like saying DOS is perfectly sufficient, a GUI system is unnecessary.

Mistake or bug, it can easily be changed, Apple has not chosen to done so. If it were a bug/mistake/some other word, Apple would have fixed it. No one 'told' me. It is obvious that Apple likes to keep systems simple and for those that are advanced users, it is quite simple to add a 2-button mouse.

If you still insist that this is a bug/mistake, report it to Apple.

dogzilla · Jan 12, 2002, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Oink:


"mistake" is a kinder word than a bug. Simplicity has not been an apple's concern in years. Just look at OS X. I am a UI designer. Don't believe what you were told. Stylistic eye candies are not SIMPLICITY in action. One button mouse is a stupid way to navigate. About control key as a substitute for multi buttons mouse. That's like saying DOS is perfectly sufficient, a GUI system is unnecessary.

You're an UI designer? For who? I'm curious as to what company beleives that added complexity = "not stupid". If a single button mouse works (as it does for the overwhelming majority of people using MacOS 9 and MacOS X), why would you change the UI to require two- or three- button mice? If you really want a multi-button mouse....buy one. They're available pretty cheap for the Mac.

And have you ever *used* a multibutton interface on a laptop? Can you honestly tell me that that is easier?

That's like saying DOS is perfectly sufficient, a GUI system is unnecessary.

Yes, that's right. It's *exactly* like that.

Oink · Jan 12, 2002, 07:34 PM

I'm curious as to what company beleives that added complexity = "not stupid"

Huuh?

And have you ever *used* a multibutton interface on a laptop? Can you honestly tell me that that is easier?

The input method on a laptop is flawed, not because of multiple buttons or not. The problem can easily be solved by using a mouse or touch screen, to mention a few possible remedies.

And I think we are way off the topics.

---
simplicity is a one button keyboard.

Developer · Jan 12, 2002, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Oink:

The input method on a laptop is flawed, not because of multiple buttons or not. The problem can easily be solved by using a mouse or touch screen, to mention a few possible remedies.

Ok, so please tell me how you would implement multiple buttons on a touch screen?

benh57 · Jan 12, 2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Oink:


"mistake" is a kinder word than a bug. Simplicity has not been an apple's concern in years. Just look at OS X. I am a UI designer. Don't believe what you were told. Stylistic eye candies are not SIMPLICITY in action. One button mouse is a stupid way to navigate. About control key as a substitute for multi buttons mouse. That's like saying DOS is perfectly sufficient, a GUI system is unnecessary.

If you were really a professional UI designer, you would know that most PC users have no idea what the right mouse button does, and would never think to click it and get a popup menu. Any features you put in there are effectively hidden to them.

As someone stated on another thread, when explaining a task to a PC user, when he says "right click on..." they usually reply "I thought you said this was simple???"

For myself, i think it is great UI. But most users - no. one button is fine.

-B

Buzz Lightbeer · Jan 12, 2002, 08:40 PM

��
Quartz?

Quartz is the imaging system.

Surely you mean a bug in the Window Manager... Maybe when you filed this bug at http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/ and talked about Quartz, the bug administrators didn't know what you were on about and that's why it never got fixed!

Oink · Jan 12, 2002, 09:04 PM

If you were really a professional UI designer, you would know that most PC users have no idea what the right mouse button does, and would never think to click it and get a popup menu. Any features you put in there are effectively hidden to them.

As someone stated on another thread, when explaining a task to a PC user, when he says "right click on..." they usually reply "I thought you said this was simple???"

For myself, i think it is great UI. But most users - no. one button is fine.

Regarding your point. May be car makers should eliminate the blinkers because clearly most drivers don't use them.

Yammer, yammer. Let's stop this already. Clearly you have convinced me that you are a professional, in the ocean of professionals.

HA HA HA
--------
Amateur out.

MasonMcD · Jan 12, 2002, 09:22 PM

Oink, you are the one who waved his credentials around, as if that flies around here. A lot of folks have issues with Tog's and Jef Raskin's point of view, so what makes you think some no name UI designer has any credibility here?

Obviously, X-Window, XP, most "real-world metaphor" software, etc. were "designed" by someone. And they would be the last ones I would ask for advice on matters UI, schooling and credentials be damned.

Oink · Jan 12, 2002, 09:33 PM

I obviously have waved my fake credentials around. I am an amateur. Thank you, and my apologies to all you REAL professionals.

one more post count. Just like ff points

MasonMcD · Jan 12, 2002, 09:58 PM

Fake or genuine, you still have no standing without some concrete and novel development of your criticisms. One button mouse gripes? Geez, alert the media.

Boondoggle · Jan 12, 2002, 10:11 PM

I am a UI designer

Yeah well get in line, Nobody cares. I guess Apple is only at 5% market share because of all the frustration with the one button mouse. What kind of a fool would base a $1000+ purchasing decision on the number of mouse buttons when you can get just about any mouse you want?

lame.

edddeduck · Jan 12, 2002, 10:30 PM

Oink Chill out dude just coz you are a GUI designer means exactly SH1T amongst people on this board esp if you act so high and mighty like ...

and I quote..

"mistake" is a kinder word than a bug. Simplicity has not been an apple's concern in years. Just look at OS X. I am a UI designer. Don't believe what you were told. Stylistic eye candies are not SIMPLICITY in action. One button mouse is a stupid way to navigate. About control key as a substitute for multi buttons mouse.

This style of writing saying about a one button mouse being "stupid" etc you are asking for it. You are basically calling everyone who does not believe in your idea/way stupid..

IMHO a GIU designer esp for a company like apple is looking to please the 5th to 95th percentile (Basic GUI/HCI rules).

Most people know apple has been prodominatly in two markets New/Novice home user and Power users (Now this is basically the whole spectum of users from new through to pro).

By creating a machine that is very easy to use but having greater speed and options if needed is the key to success. For example a OS with 2 button support but no 2 button mice shipping. 2 button mice are not needed but are more a tool for more advanced users to have more speed. A pro user will not often have a custom (none apple mouse) and use the second mouse button on this.

Now apple has made GUI mistakes in the past, now and in the future as well. If you do not want to be flamed don't be as agressive with your posts also ALOT of people who post here are "pro's"

To name a few the Guy who wrote/writes apple script.

The guy who was lead coder on Macromedia products like Dreamweaver

The president of Ambrosia Software

I could go on.... None of these guys use their "fame" to tell use what to think they like everyone else try to discuss topics not call people names.

And they in turn might start to respect your ideas for what they are not what you are...

Oh that bug is annoying but I cannot 100% it at the moment..

Cheers Edd

[EDIT] UBB was not working... [EDIT}

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: edddeduck ]

Oink · Jan 12, 2002, 10:32 PM

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Oink ]

Drizzt · Jan 12, 2002, 11:20 PM

Just to remind you my software designing classes.

"A user MUST NOT need to use the second mouse button to use the software. All functions must be easily accessible via interface elements (like buttons and menus). The contextual menu is an extension of the menu bar, where the elements shown are in relation with the item/object clicked. You are not forced to code it but encouraged."

This class was teached to me there's less than a year ago, by a guy that worked some years for Microsoft.. but choose to go away (I wonder why...). He was teaching us with official documents from the government describing the UI Standards. I was one of the best in my classes... (I really liked it

)

Now if you read between the lines...

Contextual menus are not mandatory, but useful. Nowhere they say that it must be implemented, nor there is a forced way to implement/use it (like a 2nd mouse button).

But a thing I remember that stressed me..

"The menu bar must be attached to the window..." -- hu?!

It really is in there you know.. but I don't really "see" the positive difference between attached and detached.. I believe attached is better since it suggests the developer not to use the menu bar for every possible reason, and to make an interface with commonly used functions easily available (like a button bar).

Back to topic : Yes it's disturbing.. but might be usefull on multi monitor systems..

ntsc · Jan 13, 2002, 09:56 AM

Just to kinda pull this thread back to the original topic.

Does anyone actually know why this bug in the Window Manger occurs?

And could someone clarify the difference between the Window manager and Quartz, since I always thought they were the same thing...

BTW i have always found one mouse button sufficient however i understand that if you are used to a certain way of working which includes a second mouse button and/or scroll wheel its very hard to give these up.

Xeo: i hope that my sig now follows the appropriate guidelines, i never read that particular thread perhaps this should have been e-mailed to everybody.

Developer · Jan 13, 2002, 10:07 AM

Does anyone actually know why this bug in the Window Manger occurs?

I don't think it's a bug in the Window Manager.

I believe the problem is that Mail uses notification alerts (or however they might be called in Cocoa). You remember those yellow notification alerts in OS 9? They used to be in the foreground without switching the active application. Under OS X they behave the same but they have the normal dialog appearance.

I guess it hasn't been fixed yet because Apple hasn't figured out yet how to handle those notification alerts.

ervier · Jan 13, 2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by edddeduck:
2 button mice are not needed but are more a tool for more advanced users to have more speed. A pro user will not often have a custom (none apple mouse) and use the second mouse button on this.

I am an advanced user, and I come from a windows environment. I'm used to the two-button mouse, and at first I thought the one-button mouse was stupid. Then I got RSI, although not really bad. After recovering I bought a G4, with the big mouse. I like it, and you know why? You can rest your entire hand on the mouse, and it doesn't matter with which finger you press to click. This mouse is easier, and causes less strain on the hands. I would rather use this mouse on a pc!

Xeo · Jan 13, 2002, 12:57 PM

Thank you ntsc for following sig guidelines. Many people are not nearly as cooperative as you were.

Now, about this thread. I have received complaints about it and in my book that clearly calls for the thread to be done away with. Also, a very large percentage of it is completely off topic.

So, if you'd like to continue the Quartz discussion, please start a new thread. This one has so little information about it that it's just not worth it.