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RIP Dreams of a 27” Apple Silicon iMac
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Thorzdad
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Nov 6, 2023, 01:50 PM
 
Apple confirms that it has no plans to update the 27” iMac with Apple Silicon.

Users of 27-inch Intel Macs should either move to the 24-inch iMac or to the M2 Pro Mac mini or the Mac Studio if they need more performance.
     
subego
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Nov 6, 2023, 01:56 PM
 
The latter will be me at some point. My iMac is getting pretty creaky.

I've already set up two M1 Mini plus 27” LG 5K rigs for people who needed to upgrade now but couldn’t give up the 27”
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 6, 2023, 08:37 PM
 
People seem to be expecting a 32" at some point instead but that rumour has been around for some time and I can't imagine why Apple would struggle to pull it off fairly quickly if they wanted to.
I'm not sure we'll see another iMac Pro though. Pros have the Mac Pro, Mac Studio and XDR displays.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 7, 2023, 01:25 PM
 
dammit. I really don't want a 24" screen, but I suppose I can buy a mini and hook it up to the old 2013 imac as a monitor... somehow.

the imac is near end of life/space/would like teh snappy, so I cannot wait much longer for 32" mythical beast.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254745144
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 7, 2023, 02:05 PM
 
The fact they made all imacs never have a video input signal is retarded. Think of all those beautiful displays getting trashed because the hardware connected to them is out of date. So dumb.
     
OAW
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Nov 7, 2023, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
People seem to be expecting a 32" at some point instead but that rumour has been around for some time and I can't imagine why Apple would struggle to pull it off fairly quickly if they wanted to.
I'm not sure we'll see another iMac Pro though. Pros have the Mac Pro, Mac Studio and XDR displays.
I question if there is enough of a market for a 32" all-in-one for Apple to devote the resources to it. Especially since they have already ruled out a 27" version.

OAW
     
dav
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Nov 8, 2023, 09:58 AM
 
My 2011 27" iMac is still chugging along, I guess next up will be a Mac Studio, when I get around to it.
one post closer to five stars
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 8, 2023, 12:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
The fact they made all imacs never have a video input signal is retarded. Think of all those beautiful displays getting trashed because the hardware connected to them is out of date. So dumb.
so, it can't be a monitor? Damn.
     
subego
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Nov 8, 2023, 01:28 PM
 
On one hand, I find that irritating.

On the other, mine will be around 10 years old when I retire it, so it’s probably time for a new monitor anyways, preferably 10-bit.
     
Laminar
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Nov 8, 2023, 03:47 PM
 
The older iMacs worked in Target Display Mode, but the 5K iMacs can't use that. You can, however, get a driver board to make the LCD work with some hackery.

https://ohmypizza.com/2023/04/conver...nal-5k-display
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 8, 2023, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
On one hand, I find that irritating.

On the other, mine will be around 10 years old when I retire it, so it’s probably time for a new monitor anyways, preferably 10-bit.
10? My iMac hit 14 years old this year.
     
subego
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Nov 8, 2023, 05:29 PM
 
I could drag it out much, much longer if I wasn’t doing 4K video.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 9, 2023, 08:32 AM
 
For sure. I just do print ads and occasional photo editing/retouching, and the old iMac still does the job without complaint.
     
Demonhood
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Nov 9, 2023, 12:16 PM
 
Have ended up replacing almost all of our 27" iMacs with Mac Studios at this point. Similar price for the Max flavor. Hoping they last as long as these guys do. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 9, 2023, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I could drag it out much, much longer if I wasn’t doing 4K video.
Youtube used to have a thing where you could see what percentage was viewed on a desktop, phone, tv, etc. I forget the metric but it's like 80-90% viewed on a phone. I don't think 4k is worth it, imho.
     
subego
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Nov 9, 2023, 01:03 PM
 
You are absolutely correct that 4K isn’t going to help much in terms of viewing, but it is absolutely beneficial to processing and effects work.

I’m sure you’ve drawn/sketched something big and then reduced it. Same idea.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 9, 2023, 02:50 PM
 
mac mini $2299
  • Apple M2 Pro with 10‑core CPU, 16-core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine
  • 32GB unified memory
  • 2TB SSD storage
  • Gigabit Ethernet
  • Four Thunderbolt 4 ports, HDMI port, two USB‑A ports, headphone jack
Studio Display - Standard glass - Tilt-adjustable stand $1599
applecare $150
___________
$4,299.94

ouch

mac studio: $2599
  • Apple M2 Max with 12‑core CPU, 30‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine
  • 32GB unified memory
  • 2TB SSD storage
  • Front: Two USB-C ports, one SDXC card slot
  • Back: Four Thunderbolt 4 ports, two USB-A ports, one HDMI port, one 10Gb Ethernet port, one 3.5 mm headphone jack
  • Accessory Kit
Studio Display - Standard glass - Tilt-adjustable stand $1599
applecare $169
__________

$4,639.94

well I can see why they're not selling a 27" imac for $3000
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Nov 9, 2023 at 04:12 PM. )
     
subego
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Nov 9, 2023, 03:53 PM
 
ProTip: don’t bother with AppleCare on a desktop. It will be the extremely rare exception where problems don’t make themselves evident before the standard warranty is up. Knock on wood, but it’s never happened to me or anyone I know.

Now, laptops, phone, iPad? Absolute necessity.
     
Laminar
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Nov 9, 2023, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
well I can see why they're not selling a 27" imac for $3000
Are you saying that it wouldn't be profitable for them because you believe the individual component cost would be too high, or are you saying that if they offered that option it would undermine the huge margins they're pulling on the current solution?
     
subego
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Nov 10, 2023, 02:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Studio Display - Standard glass - Tilt-adjustable stand
Just a note that the LG 27” Tbolt 5K I’ve been setting people up with as the iMac monitor substitute is under a grand on Amazon. No 10-bit.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07XV9NQSJ
( Last edited by subego; Nov 10, 2023 at 03:08 AM. )
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 10, 2023, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
the huge margins they're pulling on the current solution?
this

One of my work monitors is an LG, and it's ok, but oddly the color on the imac is better, even after fiddling with color settings and such. Calibration is a lost art.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 10, 2023, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Calibration is a lost art.
Nobody cares anymore. Go ask a commercial printer how many files they get from “designers” that are sRGB, and not CMYK. Or, getting brochures built entirely in Photoshop at screen resolution, thanks to every small-business owner arming themselves with an Adobe subscription. Hell, go ask a random supposedly professional printer and see if you can even get a bespoke ICC color profile for their press.

Nobody cares. And even the ones that might care aren’t willing to pay for it.
     
subego
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Nov 10, 2023, 01:28 PM
 
I admit, I stopped bothering, but at least I use CMYK for print.

Most of the time.
     
reader50
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Nov 10, 2023, 02:00 PM
 
I used to calibrate my CRTs with a Spyder. Stopped doing it after the first few LCD monitors. The default color profiles were close enough that I didn't notice color shifts moving between the monitors, so it was good enough out of the box. Also, later OSes broke my Spyder drivers.

That said, I'm not a print- or video- pro.
     
Thorzdad  (op)
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Nov 10, 2023, 06:36 PM
 
Hey all. I just want to apologize for that “Nobody cares” post. It’s a pretty bleak shit post. Sorry.

My head is in a very bad place right now. I’m (once again) in a really deep, really black, hole, and I’m struggling with deciding if it’s really worth climbing out again. So, posts are liable to come off pretty assholish or bleak right now. Sorry.
     
subego
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Nov 10, 2023, 08:39 PM
 
FWIW, it did not to me.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 10, 2023, 08:47 PM
 
Thorz, vent away. We can start a new thread for venting. Misery loves company.
     
dav
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Nov 13, 2023, 09:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Thorz, vent away. We can start a new thread for venting. Misery loves company.
we're all human here... well, at least I am.
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Doc HM
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Nov 14, 2023, 08:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Nobody cares anymore. Go ask a commercial printer how many files they get from “designers” that are sRGB, and not CMYK. Or, getting brochures built entirely in Photoshop at screen resolution, thanks to every small-business owner arming themselves with an Adobe subscription. Hell, go ask a random supposedly professional printer and see if you can even get a bespoke ICC color profile for their press.

Nobody cares. And even the ones that might care aren’t willing to pay for it.
Sad but true (see also kerning). I remember the pain we used to have to go through maintaining colour workflows (and the constant problems) such as trying in vain to get customers to accept that the colours on their Chromalin proof were not going to reproduce accurately in their finished poster etc. Then going down to the printers with the client to physically adjust colours on press before signing off an approved version. We even used to do a short run, stop the press, ship a press proof to the customer for sign off then restart the press. No-one does this stuff anymore because no-one really cares.

I specifically remember the trauma of trying to match a printed light purple of a shoe to an actual shoe, we had to run several modified sets of films before the client was "almost happy", and don't get me started on when I used to produce art catalogues for Sotheby's etc. Man they were hot on colour fidelity.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
subego
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Nov 14, 2023, 12:50 PM
 
I do care about keming, but nowadays tend to let the “optical” setting in Illustrator cover it.
     
subego
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Nov 14, 2023, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
We even used to do a short run, stop the press, ship a press proof to the customer for sign off then restart the press. No-one does this stuff anymore because no-one really cares.
Am I remembering right that back in the day places wouldn’t (within reason) charge for proofs? As in “if it’s good we make that back on the run, and if it’s impossible for us to do the job we’re not going to charge you for the privilege of discovering it”.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 14, 2023, 05:58 PM
 
There were special proofs that got printed on a high end color printer that would very closely match press, I recall being charged for those.

Sometimes I would travel to the print shop, sit in the waiting room with the sales rep, and wait for a press sheet. So they didn't have to pause for long.

Proofs were insurance. If the finished product did not match the proof you could get it redone.
     
reader50
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Nov 14, 2023, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I do care about keming, but nowadays tend to let the “optical” setting in Illustrator cover it.
It's cute how you used a kerning error to make it look like "keming". A nice subtle touch.
     
subego
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Nov 14, 2023, 06:22 PM
 
     
Brien
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Nov 16, 2023, 12:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
ProTip: don’t bother with AppleCare on a desktop. It will be the extremely rare exception where problems don’t make themselves evident before the standard warranty is up. Knock on wood, but it’s never happened to me or anyone I know.

Now, laptops, phone, iPad? Absolute necessity.
It’s like $50 for the Mac mini, though. Cheap insurance.
     
Brien
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Nov 16, 2023, 12:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Nobody cares anymore. Go ask a commercial printer how many files they get from “designers” that are sRGB, and not CMYK. Or, getting brochures built entirely in Photoshop at screen resolution, thanks to every small-business owner arming themselves with an Adobe subscription. Hell, go ask a random supposedly professional printer and see if you can even get a bespoke ICC color profile for their press.

Nobody cares. And even the ones that might care aren’t willing to pay for it.
Sadly this. Seeing less and less Pantone or spot colors in general. InDesign? What’s that?

… the optical kerning setting is pretty good though. Most of the time. Still gets A V and things next to round letters wrong.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 27, 2023, 12:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
mac mini $2299
  • Apple M2 Pro with 10‑core CPU, 16-core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine
  • 32GB unified memory
  • 2TB SSD storage
  • Gigabit Ethernet
  • Four Thunderbolt 4 ports, HDMI port, two USB‑A ports, headphone jack
Studio Display - Standard glass - Tilt-adjustable stand $1599
applecare $150
___________
$4,299.94

ouch

mac studio: $2599
  • Apple M2 Max with 12‑core CPU, 30‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine
  • 32GB unified memory
  • 2TB SSD storage
  • Front: Two USB-C ports, one SDXC card slot
  • Back: Four Thunderbolt 4 ports, two USB-A ports, one HDMI port, one 10Gb Ethernet port, one 3.5 mm headphone jack
  • Accessory Kit
Studio Display - Standard glass - Tilt-adjustable stand $1599
applecare $169
__________
$4,639.94
mac mini m2 on sale at best buy until tomorrow; or $100 gift card on apple's site with more configuration options.

Trying to convince myself I don't need the pro... but coming from an imac and having had lots of powermacs, 8gb ram and 512SSD seems small. Imac hard drive is 1.1TB and almost maxed. (possibly some of that is cruft but... )

Is unified memory really that much better? Is 8gb unified ram as good as 32gb old ram?

8gb 512SSD $699 at bestbuy
16gb 512SSD $999 on apple (w $100 gift card) if I up the hard drive may as well go pro.

+ cheap LG monitor...
     
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Nov 27, 2023, 02:46 AM
 
I really love the way the iMacs look, the first Macs that are fun in a long, long, long time. I was super disappointed when the all new MacBook Air came in the same boring colors. If there were a yellow MacBook Air, I would have instaordered that.

The iMac is a bit sad. I could make do with a 24" screen if I could attach a second screen side-by-side. But then I'd likely want an M3 Pro with more RAM in the machine. The lack of RAM in the plain vanilla M3 (24 GB) is a major sticking point. I find it insulting that Apple hasn't raised the minimum RAM in 10 years. Yes. I am writing this on a 2013 13" MacBook Pro my wife gifted me in February 2014. The only two bad things about the machine is that at the time we could only afford the minimal config with 8 GB RAM and 256 GB SSD. The cheapest M2 MacBook Air still sports 8 GB RAM and a 256 GB SSD. This is getting ridiculous.

While some people think 128 GB are insane, it all depends on what you use your computer for. At work our standard workstations come with 128 GB. Laptops for people crunching data or doing simulations have 32 GB. And 32 GB are constraining for me as I can only run one analysis at a time, otherwise Python runs out of memory.
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Laminar
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Nov 27, 2023, 09:12 AM
 
But per Andi's question, do you count "unified memory" differently than the old non-ARM stuff? I have an M1 Mini with 8GB and I've never noticed an issue with it, where my MBA with 8GB will often slow to a crawl if I get too many browser tabs going. When I was picking out the Mini, I opted for more hard drive space and only 8GB RAM because the promise was made that less memory with the ARM stuff would outperform more member with the old stuff.

There's a little discussion of it here:
https://vi-control.net/community/thr...el-ram.139013/

From what they're saying, the ARM OS X uses less memory on its own, so for a base config, an ARM machine with 8GB has more available room than an Intel machine with 8GB. But once you actually load up RAM-specific tasks, RAM is RAM. Since I only use my Mini and MBA for basic web browsing and light video editing, I'm not running into these walls like someone mixing a bunch of tracks or doing intense data crunching would be. So maybe think of the current 8GB ARM machines as coming with 12GB in the old world.
     
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Nov 27, 2023, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
But per Andi's question, do you count "unified memory" differently than the old non-ARM stuff? I have an M1 Mini with 8GB and I've never noticed an issue with it, where my MBA with 8GB will often slow to a crawl if I get too many browser tabs going.
There are some scenarios where that might hold water, but for most, I'd say it is BS. E. g. if I need 8–16 GB per computation that I run, then that's that. Ditto if you are dealing with lots of photos or browser tabs.

Apple hasn't raised minimum RAM and minimum storage in 10 years. My 2013 13" base model MacBook Pro came with 8 GB and 256 GB RAM just like today's M2 MacBook Air base model. The fact that it is unified doesn't matter much, except that everything is a lot faster.
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reader50
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Nov 27, 2023, 04:52 PM
 
When we transitioned from PPC to x86, RAM usage went up about 25%. Apps and the OS take up more space for the same amount of source code. With the ARM stuff, Apple is going back to a RISC architecture. So I'd expect code to take up 80% of the space it needs on x86. Note that data is not affected - open files will require the same RAM regardless of platform.

My personal impression is 16GB used to be fine on Intel, but is a bit cramped in the latest OSes. This is for light use - email, lots of browsing, a few apps. Extrapolating from that, I'd like an x86 machine to have 20GB or better today, and an ARM machine should be OK with 16GB for a few years. If your data needs are higher, bump RAM accordingly.

If I were buying a new computer today, I'd want it to have 32 GB regardless of platform. If the RAM cannot be upgraded, I'd go for at least 64 GB. Maybe more, as I keep my machines around a decade.
     
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Nov 27, 2023, 09:26 PM
 
I agree with Lam. It feels like you must be doing some pretty demanding tasks to require minimum 16Gb of RAM with the new M architecture. I don’t know the technical reason behind it, but it definitely uses RAM more efficiently than the older intel processors.
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subego
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Nov 28, 2023, 11:34 AM
 
I have the utmost faith in developers’ ability to waste RAM.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Nov 29, 2023, 12:42 AM
 
I do agree that it feels like Apple has been fucking everyone with their margins on RAM and storage. It’s 2023. Not upgrading to 16GB of starter RAM in the last decade just seems out of touch. And I would say the same thing for 255Gb HDD, although cloud services have also encroached on that territory.
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Laminar
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Nov 29, 2023, 09:53 AM
 
With my 64GB iPhone X I had to clear off photos and videos on a near-monthly basis. I kept very few apps on the phone but there was still so little overhead to store much content. I went with the 256GB 13 Pro and just realized last week I hadn't had to pull anything off of the phone in the two years I've had it. Apple didn't standardize at128GB until the iPhone 13, which feels ridiculous.
     
subego
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Nov 29, 2023, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
And I would say the same thing for 255Gb HDD, although cloud services have also encroached on that territory.
I cut Apple slack on their SSDs.

My M1 Mini writes at 3GB/sec. That’s insane.
     
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Nov 29, 2023, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
When we transitioned from PPC to x86, RAM usage went up about 25%. Apps and the OS take up more space for the same amount of source code. With the ARM stuff, Apple is going back to a RISC architecture. So I'd expect code to take up 80% of the space it needs on x86. Note that data is not affected - open files will require the same RAM regardless of platform.
I think for instructions, you might have a point. But in many (probably most) cases data dominates when it comes to the memory footprint.

I remember seeing a great illustration: during Steve Jobs reign, minimum RAM consistently went up (not as quickly/high as we wanted, but still), whereas it has increased at best once during Tim Cook's time at the helm. I find it ridiculous that minimum RAM and SSD sizes have not changed in 10 years. RAM and SSD prices have consistently dropped in the meantime. 24 GB/1 TB should be standard on a plain M3.
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reader50
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Nov 29, 2023, 11:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I used to calibrate my CRTs with a Spyder. Stopped doing it after the first few LCD monitors. The default color profiles were close enough that I didn't notice color shifts moving between the monitors, so it was good enough out of the box. Also, later OSes broke my Spyder drivers.
I spoke too soon. Saw a deal on TV / Monitors at Best Buy for the Black Friday sales. 4K 43" for $170. The price was too good, so I got a pair to upgrade from my 32s.

I've been gradually lowering my resolution over the last few years, so the lower ppi won't be a problem. It can't be my eyes getting weaker, though it is kinda weird being the same age as old folks. Or at least, what I used to think were old folks.

Anyway, the new panels are VA type, while I was used to IPS. Colors are a bit off - I'll definitely buy IPS in the future. Or OLED, or whatever is the best choice whenever 8K monitors become reasonable. In the meantime, I've ordered a SpyderX to fix what I can.
     
Laminar
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Nov 30, 2023, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I remember seeing a great illustration: during Steve Jobs reign, minimum RAM consistently went up (not as quickly/high as we wanted, but still), whereas it has increased at best once during Tim Cook's time at the helm.
That's like saying, "During Steve Jobs' time, we went from 233MHz processors to 2.8GHz processors. Since Tim Cook took over, we're stuck at 2.5GHz!"

It's only relevant if you have a basis for comparison, since they ruled during different eras of technological progression. Have HP/Dell similarly leveled out their offerings? Looks like I can buy a $1000 HP laptop with 8GB of RAM, though at that price point most have 16GB. But as anyone that spent time in the '90s yelling about the Megahertz Myth will tell you, you can't compare raw numbers between platforms.
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 1, 2023, 01:14 AM
 
Memory needs are not myths and is easy to measure. I have consistently needed more memory than was installed starting from when I switched to OS X — until I got a Mac Pro with 64 GB RAM. When your memory needs are dominated by data, platform differences become insignificant. Apps like Aperture back in the day and also browsers have been main drivers here.

Memory and storage have in my experience been the most important factor deciding when a Mac is EOL. Ever since Apple adopted SSDs, I could no longer store my entire photo library on my internal storage. It is a mess. Fast, large capacity SSDs have become very affordable.

Rather than Good, Better, Best, there are some models I would steer people away from.

That’s doubly true for the MacBooks Pro: At work laptops issued to people like me or similar have had 32 GB for several years. Price-wise they are on par with MacBook Pros. Our demi workstations sport 128 GB by default. One computation on one core takes up up to 16–20 GB. The test bed for our compute nodes will likely come with half a TB, 64 cores and several GPUs (4080s, 4080 Supers and 4090s are in discussion depending on availability). Enthusiast desktop PCs seem to feature 32ish GB these days.

Maybe this is at the outer edges, but think a few years down the line how common ML workloads will be for more regular users. Apple is getting behind here, because a lot of Macs will not be able to run such workloads.
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