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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > New Imac Displays - Are they really glossy?

New Imac Displays - Are they really glossy?
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gto47
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Aug 29, 2007, 03:06 PM
 
I had the opportunity to take a look at the new imac models and i'm not so convinced that the lcd panels they are using are any different from the ones included with prior models. The glossy face of the screen sits flush with the outer bezel. I've never seen this before and franky i don't think its possible. What i believe apple has done is to place a piece of glass, lexan, or some other kind of clear sheet over over the same old (matte) screen that came with the previous model and market it as glossy. How could apple do such an asinine thing to us? If you look from a downward angle at the bottom of the screen you'll see that the light the screen produces is emitted a few millimeters back from the face of the screen. Glare protectors were never ever cool and more importantly were never functional. What the bleep? I'm just waiting for third party vendors to start selling a frame so that we can swap out this garbage.

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funkboy
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Aug 30, 2007, 08:32 AM
 
Anybody else with an idea? I think I agree, I assume that's what Apple has done, but I am not in a position to know.
If this is the case, I think it's only a matter of time until a 3rd party figures "I can sell a frame without the glass and make $$."
     
ghporter
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Aug 30, 2007, 08:38 AM
 
Read all the threads here about this subject; the LCD isn't any different. It has a big sheet of GLASS over it, though. THAT's the glossy part.

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iDaver
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Aug 31, 2007, 01:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by gto47 View Post
What i believe apple has done is to place a piece of glass, lexan, or some other kind of clear sheet over over the same old (matte) screen that came with the previous model and market it as glossy. How could apple do such an asinine thing to us?
It's so Steve Jobs could use his new catch phrase "aluminum and glass."

I've watched a lot of Steve's keynotes and press gatherings. I'm usually impressed. But when he starting going on about the iMac glossy screen, the aluminum and glass, recycling and the whole bit, I thought it was the silliest bunch of nonsense I've ever heard from him.
     
iREZ
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Aug 31, 2007, 11:09 AM
 
well i'm all for being better for the environment, although i still don't understand how aluminum and glass is better for the environment than the white plastic that predated it. i do like the aluminum, but that black border around the screen and that apple logo POPPING out at the user and the keyboard and mouse not matching the computer just isn't very "apple" to me.
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arng1
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Aug 31, 2007, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by iREZ View Post
i do like the aluminum, but that black border around the screen and that apple logo POPPING out at the user and the keyboard and mouse not matching the computer just isn't very "apple" to me.
Yeah I kinda have to agree. Im not to sure adding black to the mix was such a great idea. Dont get me wrong it looks nice but I just think apple should have stuck to an aluminum and white combination like the displays and keyboard.
     
Parky
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Sep 1, 2007, 05:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by gto47 View Post
I had the opportunity to take a look at the new imac models and i'm not so convinced that the lcd panels they are using are any different from the ones included with prior models. The glossy face of the screen sits flush with the outer bezel. I've never seen this before and franky i don't think its possible. What i believe apple has done is to place a piece of glass, lexan, or some other kind of clear sheet over over the same old (matte) screen that came with the previous model and market it as glossy. How could apple do such an asinine thing to us? If you look from a downward angle at the bottom of the screen you'll see that the light the screen produces is emitted a few millimeters back from the face of the screen. Glare protectors were never ever cool and more importantly were never functional. What the bleep? I'm just waiting for third party vendors to start selling a frame so that we can swap out this garbage.

The iMac does have a glossy screen that also sits behind a glossy piece of glass.

How hard is it to understand?

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ghporter
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Sep 1, 2007, 10:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by iREZ View Post
well i'm all for being better for the environment, although i still don't understand how aluminum and glass is better for the environment than the white plastic that predated it. i do like the aluminum, but that black border around the screen and that apple logo POPPING out at the user and the keyboard and mouse not matching the computer just isn't very "apple" to me.
Recycling plastic is much more difficult and costly than recycling glass and metal-both of which can simply be melted down and reused. Plastics have to be segregated by type, color, filler, etc. Glass and aluminum production have for many decades depended on the use of scrap in the basic refining process, so just throwing in more scrap is not an issue at all. Yes, glass needs to be separated by coloring agent, but clear, colorless glass is easy to detect and use immediately.

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0157988944
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Sep 1, 2007, 11:12 AM
 
I predict a new iMac frame with no glass coming out by a third party by years end.
     
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Sep 1, 2007, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Recycling plastic is much more difficult and costly than recycling glass and metal-both of which can simply be melted down and reused. Plastics have to be segregated by type, color, filler, etc. Glass and aluminum production have for many decades depended on the use of scrap in the basic refining process, so just throwing in more scrap is not an issue at all. Yes, glass needs to be separated by coloring agent, but clear, colorless glass is easy to detect and use immediately.
Understood. None of this makes me believe just because Apple now puts a piece of glass over a standard LCD panel and wraps it all in aluminum, that the iMac is more earth friendly than before. "Aluminum and Glass" is hype; a catch phrase made up to sound cool and make people who wouldn't otherwise know better think this is somehow special. Power Macs and PowerBooks have been made out of aluminum for years. Let's attach a piece of glass to them, ok? Then we could use the catch phrase there too.

That said, I applaud Apple's incremental steps to become more earth friendly. This particular bit of hype turns me off, however, as does a reflective computer display.
     
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Sep 1, 2007, 12:37 PM
 
Power Macs and Power Books are also full of lead and antimony-the principle components of conventional solder used for generations. There are also some very "interesting" chemicals used within the circuit boards and as coatings. For the last several years, Apple has been making some really drastic changes in its manufacturing processes. Remember the iSight camera-and how it went away? That's in part because of EU requirements to remove lead and other toxins from electronic products. So Apple has apparently taken this as a challenge, and now uses lead-free solder (as far as I can tell) and other techniques to reduce or eliminate nasty chemicals in their products. They also offer to recycle OLD computer stuff for a new purchaser. That IS Earth friendly.

And as you may note in my earlier posts on the subject, I have had no trouble setting up my new iMac so that there are NO reflections or glare on the screen. Not all that hard to do, actually.

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fisherKing
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Sep 1, 2007, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
And as you may note in my earlier posts on the subject, I have had no trouble setting up my new iMac so that there are NO reflections or glare on the screen. Not all that hard to do, actually.
unless, of course, there are windows behind you (mine face south), bright lights aimed at your desk, or you do professional graphics or photography.

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ghporter
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Sep 1, 2007, 08:58 PM
 
Move the lights, put up modest curtains, and those problems are gone. Can you explain how high-end graphics are incompatible with any particular screen? As I recall, the argument about MacBook Pro screens was the the matte screen was incompatible with graphics because the matte finish made colors wash out and look "mushy."

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Sep 1, 2007, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Move the lights, put up modest curtains, and those problems are gone. Can you explain how high-end graphics are incompatible with any particular screen? As I recall, the argument about MacBook Pro screens was the the matte screen was incompatible with graphics because the matte finish made colors wash out and look "mushy."
Agreed, my MacBook's glossy looks a heck lot better than my iMac's + Cinema Display's matte when it comes to graphics.
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iDaver
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Sep 1, 2007, 09:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Move the lights, put up modest curtains, and those problems are gone.
In other words, don't expect to be able to look out the window when you're using a new iMac.

Oh, I guess one should just get used to opening the curtains to look out the window, then closing them again to go back to computing. It's all just a small inconvenience, but worth it for the incredible beauty of the reflective screen.

I can't believe how many glossy screen defenders are out there. "Just rearrange your room to suit your new iMac, or better yet, just work in the dark."
     
0157988944
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Sep 1, 2007, 09:15 PM
 
...or realize that a little reflection actually isn't that bad unless you have windows right behind you which you really shouldn't have behind you if you're any type of graphic work.
     
daneel
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Sep 1, 2007, 11:27 PM
 
to all the people worried about the gloss, use something like a 14 or 18 watt standard phillips anywhere except directly in front of the screen and everything is fine.

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L'enfanTerrible
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Sep 2, 2007, 04:14 AM
 
I hate to break it to you guys, but I've seen a new iMac with the glass removed and it is a glossy LCD.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't glossy LCD's how they come, and to make them matte you have to apply a coating?

As someone who uses iMacs on a daily basis, I am not really happy about the new look. I understand that the colours are more saturated, but with a higher quality, properly calibrated display, colours look fine. The glare is a pretty big trade-off, and can be really annoying.
     
Simon
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Sep 2, 2007, 04:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by L'enfanTerrible View Post
I hate to break it to you guys, but I've seen a new iMac with the glass removed and it is a glossy LCD.
Yep. Looks pretty glossy to me.

     
Parky
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Sep 2, 2007, 05:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
I predict a new iMac frame with no glass coming out by a third party by years end.
So that you can then sit and look at the glossy LCD screen instead!
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mduell
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Sep 2, 2007, 10:19 AM
 
Glossy and matte are surface coatings on the LCD panel... the glass panel in front of it isn't what's causing the display to appear glossy.
     
fisherKing
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Sep 2, 2007, 01:01 PM
 
i dont care who likes what, i can only worry about my own needs.
i work at home, and my workspace is set up PERFECTLY for my needs.
i do have 2 huge windows behind me, and get sun...i like that.
working on my matte LG monitor works great.
for me, a glossy screen would not work.

i want my computer to fit to my needs; i dont want to have to change my space to accomodate the computer.

anyway, to each his (or her) own...
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ghporter
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Sep 2, 2007, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by iDaver View Post
In other words, don't expect to be able to look out the window when you're using a new iMac.

Oh, I guess one should just get used to opening the curtains to look out the window, then closing them again to go back to computing. It's all just a small inconvenience, but worth it for the incredible beauty of the reflective screen.

I can't believe how many glossy screen defenders are out there. "Just rearrange your room to suit your new iMac, or better yet, just work in the dark."
That was pretty harsh. I did not say anything like "just rearrange your room to suit your new iMac". Instead, I said that putting up curtains would cut down those reflections. Why take what I posted as an absolute? Even sheer curtains could reduce the incoming light enough to cut the glare, and you can see through those very well. Or just reposition your desk a bit so that your screen isn't DIRECTLY FACING THE WINDOW.

Why did this become a religious issue? Geez! I'd expect inquisitors and heretic burnings from the way people have been posting such rage about the issue.

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iDaver
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Sep 2, 2007, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
That was pretty harsh. I did not say anything like "just rearrange your room to suit your new iMac". Instead, I said that putting up curtains would cut down those reflections.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be harsh. It's not only you but lots of others who assume we would want to adjust our environments just to use a computer. In most rooms, there's only one or two spots suitable for a desk and it's not always easy to adjust or move your lighting.

If I get a little over zealous with my comments, it's only because I'm so disappointed in Apple's decision to go glossy. I really, really don't understand it. I have a glossy MacBook and I don't think the images displayed look any better than those on a matte display. I'm really afraid if Apple doesn't hear enough negative feedback about the iMac, they might do glossy on the Cinema Displays which would be a real disaster. (Not that Apple is reading this forum.)
     
ghporter
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Sep 2, 2007, 07:16 PM
 
There are indications someone with Apple does read these forums. But I don't see any floor plan that's so constrained that it would prevent a good, comfortable position for an iMac that still didn't get tons of glare and reflections. I saw absolutely NO "glare" on the display models at the Apple Store, and I just put mine down on my desk and never worried about it.

If you put a piece of plain glass with black paper or cloth behind it, you can simulate the iMac's screen. Avoiding reflections and glare could be as little trouble as angling the machine a little bit. Try the glass thing (like a cheap picture frame with something black in it) and see what I mean.

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alangreenwell
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Sep 3, 2007, 10:46 AM
 
I have an iMac 2.8G with an 23" ACD as a second screen. I have to say that all of the fuss over glossy against matte screens seems over the top. When I look at the screen I am looking at the content of the application that I am working on. In other words the image on the screen.

If I choose to look at my reflection then I can refocus and see my reflection and whats behind me using the iMac screen. Could I do it with the ACD, no. However, I stress the refocussing of my eyes is what allows me to use the glossy screen to look at the reflection. So I ask myself what the big deal is?
     
fisherKing
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Sep 3, 2007, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by alangreenwell View Post
I have an iMac 2.8G with an 23" ACD as a second screen. I have to say that all of the fuss over glossy against matte screens seems over the top. When I look at the screen I am looking at the content of the application that I am working on. In other words the image on the screen.

If I choose to look at my reflection then I can refocus and see my reflection and whats behind me using the iMac screen. Could I do it with the ACD, no. However, I stress the refocussing of my eyes is what allows me to use the glossy screen to look at the reflection. So I ask myself what the big deal is?
if that works for you, cool, but for some of us...sigh, again...a glossy screen won't work.

guess i'm keeping this going as well... oops....
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rubaiyat
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Sep 4, 2007, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Why did this become a religious issue? Geez! I'd expect inquisitors and heretic burnings from the way people have been posting such rage about the issue.
Because this is a REAL issue for professional users who have already had to make a large number of compromises on what used to be their platform of choice.

Obviously there are lots of users who can't understand the issue because it doesn't impact on what they do. Just because it doesn't affect them, because their needs are more elementary, shouldn't mean they should calously disregard or put down those users for whom this is a crucial point.

After all Apple is eliminating choice not allowing it. On laptops they still have the choice of with or without anti-glare.

The much higher cost (and bulk) of the Pro series makes them a poor choice for many especially when you see how little extra bang you get for your bucks.
( Last edited by rubaiyat; Sep 4, 2007 at 05:10 PM. )
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Simon
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Sep 5, 2007, 04:01 AM
 
That still doesn't explain why certain people here find it ok to go on a religious rusade against anybody who dares to say he or she finds glossy nice. It is absolutely inappropriate and totally uncalled for to take out on other users here what these 'professional users' should be telling Apple. Going on a forum rampage is no alternative to dealing with Apple. Write them, don't buy their products, run for president, whatever. But don't for a second think this is the right place to vent anger on those who are perfectly ok with the glossy.

I feel sorry for those who want matte and can't get it on the iMac or MB and of course I'd prefer Apple would offer a choice. That however by far doesn't justify some of the attacks that have been launched on this board. Take it out on Steve, not on other users here.
     
ghporter
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Sep 5, 2007, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post
Because this is a REAL issue for professional users who have already had to make a large number of compromises on what used to be their platform of choice.

Obviously there are lots of users who can't understand the issue because it doesn't impact on what they do. Just because it doesn't affect them, because their needs are more elementary, shouldn't mean they should calously disregard or put down those users for whom this is a crucial point.

After all Apple is eliminating choice not allowing it. On laptops they still have the choice of with or without anti-glare.

The much higher cost (and bulk) of the Pro series makes them a poor choice for many especially when you see how little extra bang you get for your bucks.
I do not see how a very minor change in screen angle constitutes a "major compromise." That's all it takes-turn the screen or angle it up or down just a little, and the reflections and glare will probably all go away. Simple physics (angle of incidence equals angle of reflection), not a huge compromise.

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pk1
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Sep 5, 2007, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I do not see how a very minor change in screen angle constitutes a "major compromise." That's all it takes-turn the screen or angle it up or down just a little, and the reflections and glare will probably all go away. Simple physics (angle of incidence equals angle of reflection), not a huge compromise.
Allow me to disagree.

Based on my experience with my brother's Acer laptop thats sports a glossy screen, in order to remove the reflection of my own head I woud have to tilt the 15" widescreen display in an angle more than 30 degrees. That's not minute. When you're using a computer, you want to face it in the proper way, and that is almost vertically. With a 24", that angle would be even greater.

Now, even with anti-glare displays, when people are changing their sitting position, i.e. going from a loose way of sitting in your chair to a proper posture (where your head is higher than before), it's quite common to slightly tilt the display to fit the new position of their eyes. That is indeed a minor change in screen angle.

I would also mention that, using my brother's laptop, no matter how I tilt the display or turn it around, there are always reflections, and yes I always see myself in it. Even if there are absolutely no windows around or no lights, there is always ambient lighting in a room, which bounces off the user or the stuff behind him or the wall behind him, and into the display.

Light is a bouncy thing. It could start from the sun, then through your window *and* your curtains, onto the floor, then to the wall behind you and off to your display when it meets your eye. Unless you're working in an absolutely dark environment, I think you'll always see "things" in your screen.

I don't say that these "things" (reflections of stuff in your room, including you) are very annoying or not. That depends on the reflection and the perception of the user. But that's not the point. The point is... twofold:

1) Why on earth did the industry return to glossy displays when matte does abosolutely diminish reflections and reflections *do* annoy the users
2) Why would you tilt your computer, or angle it or place it in a specific place and why do even the most minute adjustment to it's position, according to the lighting of your room? That's not the case with matte displays.

Yes, gentlemen and ladies, I too beleive that the turn to glossy displays was a step backwards.

The reason? "Coolness". "Aluminum and glass" non-sense. A marketing trick to sell more of these new computers, that do not differ a lot from the previous line. It's ironic though, that:

a) Apple wanted to consider the new iMacs more "pro" (hence the aluminum). If there was once chance for a pro to get one, now there's none. (Unless if it's pro developers or coders who are happy to see themselves in the display because otherwise they were losing sense of identity and spent days without eating).

b) Steve Jobs in the keynote said that they asked people about it and they prefered the glossy displays. I wonder who they asked. His kids maybe?

Anyway, it's still a matter of choice. Even though I hate glossy displays, I'lll probably get the new iMac too, because 1) I can't afford a Mac pro, 2) I can't continue working on my 12" G4 PowerBook forever. I'm lucky enough that my office has a dark wall, facing which I would place the computer anyways, so I'm not compromising anything. If I would like to place my desk another way, it would not be viable. This is Greece. We have sun all year.
     
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Sep 6, 2007, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by pk1 View Post
Allow me to disagree.

Based on my experience with my brother's Acer laptop thats sports a glossy screen, in order to remove the reflection of my own head I woud have to tilt the 15" widescreen display in an angle more than 30 degrees. That's not minute. When you're using a computer, you want to face it in the proper way, and that is almost vertically. With a 24", that angle would be even greater.

...

I would also mention that, using my brother's laptop, no matter how I tilt the display or turn it around, there are always reflections, and yes I always see myself in it. Even if there are absolutely no windows around or no lights, there is always ambient lighting in a room, which bounces off the user or the stuff behind him or the wall behind him, and into the display.

Light is a bouncy thing. It could start from the sun, then through your window *and* your curtains, onto the floor, then to the wall behind you and off to your display when it meets your eye. Unless you're working in an absolutely dark environment, I think you'll always see "things" in your screen.
...

Anyway, it's still a matter of choice. Even though I hate glossy displays, I'lll probably get the new iMac too, because 1) I can't afford a Mac pro, 2) I can't continue working on my 12" G4 PowerBook forever. I'm lucky enough that my office has a dark wall, facing which I would place the computer anyways, so I'm not compromising anything. If I would like to place my desk another way, it would not be viable. This is Greece. We have sun all year.
A laptop screen cannot be angled the same way an iMac screen can, and laptops are seldom, if ever, at the same elevation as an iMac's screen will be. And the size of the screen has nothing to do with the angle you'd need to move the screen to avoid the reflection-it only affects the space that can reflect. Shall we discuss the physics of light reflection?

It seems that you have completely decided that glossy screens are horrible (and not just "not for you" but for the whole universe), so I won't bother with the rest of your post-I simply disagree completely.

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pk1
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Sep 6, 2007, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
A laptop screen cannot be angled the same way an iMac screen can, ...
Hmm, why not?

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
... and laptops are seldom, if ever, at the same elevation as an iMac's screen will be.
This is true indeed. Assuming that zero angle is that of a screen completely vertical to the ground, then the iMac has a smaller angle than a laptop, whose elevation is lower. So it may be true that reflections on the lower angled iMac will come from eye level and down to the ground, as opposed to the reflections of the laptop coming from eye level and up, where most light sources are.

You have a point here, I shouldn't judge from the laptop about what it reflects. But still there will be reflections.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
And the size of the screen has nothing to do with the angle you'd need to move the screen to avoid the reflection-it only affects the space that can reflect. Shall we discuss the physics of light reflection?
Ok, let's assume the display is a real mirror. The greater the mirror is, the more you see from what's behind you. The more you see, means a larger portion of the room is visible, which means a higher probability for more light sources.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
It seems that you have completely decided that glossy screens are horrible (and not just "not for you" but for the whole universe), so I won't bother with the rest of your post-I simply disagree completely.
Even though there is no disclaimer in the beggining of my (and everyone's) post, it is always assumed that therein are expressed personal beliefs and opinions on the basis of freedom of expressing one's ideas (in a nice manner always). The occasional debate is totally understandable and for the benefit of the users, guaranteed they are open-minded and willing to accept something contrary to their original beliefs.

Now, after demonstrating that I indeed feel open-minded about my opinions and am willing to admit the possibility of being wrong (see your point above), let me re-state my assumptions about my *personal beliefs* and perhaps we could all benefit if you bother to disagree with my opinion that:

1) Glossy displays are oriented towards home users who view the iMac as another consumer electronics product in their house (it makes their photos and movies look cooler), while matte displays are preferred by almost all professionals who work on macs (less eye-strain, better color-reproduction, no need for oversaturated images etc)

2) Apple used an "aluminum and glass" marketing scheme to enhance sales of a new line of products that otherwise do not differ significantly from the previous line they're replacing (let's face it, if the new iMac had the white form-factor, everyone would think that Apple's kidding us if they viewed this computer as an update).

3) The use of a glossy display therefore and the absence of an *option* for a matte alternative gives evidence that the target group of the new iMacs are not the pros but home users, contradicting the whole "aluiminum means pro" story.

Disclaimer:
I understand that even though the new iMac sports such a glossy display (with a reflective piece of glass covering it too) there is a possibility that the screen is ok to use for everyone. I admit that I have not seen it up close and my opinions are based upon experience with other glossy displays and opinions of other users who have seen the thing in real.
     
Dale Sorel
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Sep 6, 2007, 09:02 PM
 
     
fisherKing
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Sep 6, 2007, 09:11 PM
 
dale...nice pic. but which point of view are you representing??

i saw the imac AGAIN today, this time in best buy (i cant pass an electronics store without checking out something).
looks great overall. and the screen is beautiful...

still stand by my opinion, that the glossy is not for everyone (me, for one).

but it's a great mac otherwise, and will make a lot of people happy (and some not... )
( Last edited by fisherKing; Sep 6, 2007 at 11:29 PM. )
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Sep 6, 2007, 11:27 PM
 
Isn't it obvious from the photograph which POV he's "representing"?
     
fisherKing
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Sep 6, 2007, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Isn't it obvious from the photograph which POV he's "representing"?
didn't you see my ?
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Sep 6, 2007, 11:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by pk1 View Post
...let me re-state my assumptions about my *personal beliefs* and perhaps we could all benefit if you bother to disagree with my opinion that:

1) Glossy displays are oriented towards home users who view the iMac as another consumer electronics product in their house (it makes their photos and movies look cooler), while matte displays are preferred by almost all professionals who work on macs (less eye-strain, better color-reproduction, no need for oversaturated images etc)

2) Apple used an "aluminum and glass" marketing scheme to enhance sales of a new line of products that otherwise do not differ significantly from the previous line they're replacing (let's face it, if the new iMac had the white form-factor, everyone would think that Apple's kidding us if they viewed this computer as an update).

3) The use of a glossy display therefore and the absence of an *option* for a matte alternative gives evidence that the target group of the new iMacs are not the pros but home users, contradicting the whole "aluiminum means pro" story.
I couldn't agree more, on every point.
     
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Sep 7, 2007, 02:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I do not see how a very minor change in screen angle constitutes a "major compromise." That's all it takes-turn the screen or angle it up or down just a little, and the reflections and glare will probably all go away. Simple physics (angle of incidence equals angle of reflection), not a huge compromise.
A "very minor" tilting of the screen will not eliminate the reflections, not even "probably" as a simple live test will reveal. All you see is something else reflected. Square on it is you and every thing behind you. Tilted forward it is the keyboard and your hands. Back it is the ceiling and its lights. Sideways and it is whatever is left or right of you.

Hobson's choice really.

Not only will you not get rid of the reflections, you will encounter the secondary problem of changed viewing angles changing the color on the LCD screen. I already have that problem on my existing iMac where flat colors can look like they have a gradation from top to bottom.

Moving my head or the screen simply moves the effect.
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ghporter
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Sep 7, 2007, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post
A "very minor" tilting of the screen will not eliminate the reflections, not even "probably" as a simple live test will reveal. All you see is something else reflected. Square on it is you and every thing behind you. Tilted forward it is the keyboard and your hands. Back it is the ceiling and its lights. Sideways and it is whatever is left or right of you.

Hobson's choice really.

Not only will you not get rid of the reflections, you will encounter the secondary problem of changed viewing angles changing the color on the LCD screen. I already have that problem on my existing iMac where flat colors can look like they have a gradation from top to bottom.

Moving my head or the screen simply moves the effect.
My experience is simply completely the opposite. When the display is on, I see the display. I sit with my eyes a bit higher than the top of the screen, and it's tilted just a bit upward-and neither the light in the room nor the white wall behind me (with a window facing it) reflect or glare on the screen. I have to both tilt and rotate the screen quite a bit to see the reflection of the light in the black border around the screen, and I am both close enough and wide enough that sunlight on the wall behind me simply makes no difference in the way the display looks. Obviously this is related to both the layout of the room itself and the place I put the display, but whether through luck or something else, I just happened to put the iMac in this spot and it has worked great for me.

Here's my room from the builder's floor plan:

The window in the lower right corner of the room faces northwest (almost perfectly). My iMac is on a desk in the corner to the lower left. The light in the room is overhead in a globe, and is about 8' off the floor.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
iREZ
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Sep 7, 2007, 12:35 PM
 
i just dropped my mbp the other day, and although the hard drive is dead, it still works so im making it into a desktop computer for good now. my cuz just picked up a new 24" imac and i get to buy his old 24" matte dell lcd off him for real cheap.

typing this side by side...same angles, same everything, i see window curtains in the glossy and none of that in the matte. although the glossy does have richer colors which would be ideal for movies and photos, im soo glad i got a make shift imac after what i thought would be a dead mbp. both screens are good for their targeted audiences, wish there was a choice.
NOW YOU SEE ME! 2.4 MBP and 2.0 MBP (running ubuntu)
     
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Sep 7, 2007, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I sit with my eyes a bit higher than the top of the screen, and it's tilted just a bit upward-and neither the light in the room nor the white wall behind me (with a window facing it) reflect or glare on the screen.
Now, at last this explains why you don't see any reflections. Having your eyes higher than the screen and tilting the screen upwards, all you can see inside is the ceiling, where obviously there is no light there (or you have it off), so no light sources, hence no intense reflections.

I could not imagine myself sitting on front of a 24 inch screen with my eyes *higher* than the screen and looking *down* to the computer. I want to have the screen positioned vertically to the groun, my eyes about mid-level vertically (slightly to the top). That's the posture that I've been using for so many years, and I'm not going to change it for the sake of one glossy display.

Dear ghporter, you're one of the few (if not the only one) who claims that there are no reflections in the new iMac's glossy screen, and finally we understand why. I don't think that many people would feel comfortable positioning a huge display below their eye-level.

But that is my *personal* opinion and when I talk about other people's preferences I only speculate. I hope they enlighten us with their own opinion.
     
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Sep 7, 2007, 02:24 PM
 
It's not like I'm looking "down" that much. The machine is on a desk top that's around the standard height (28-32" off the floor). I'm kind of tall but not that tall, so that's not it either. I'm just using the computer on a desk without placing it any higher than it stands normally. And of course mine is a 20" iMac, not a 24" iMac. But the same reflection issues would apply with a 24" model on the same desktop, there would just be more space on the display. It's the angle that's the issue. Why would you put ANY display high enough that you'd be looking "up" at it? That's not ergonomically sound, and it would be very uncomfortable for me.

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Sep 7, 2007, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
It's not like I'm looking "down" that much. The machine is on a desk top that's around the standard height (28-32" off the floor). I'm kind of tall but not that tall, so that's not it either. I'm just using the computer on a desk without placing it any higher than it stands normally. And of course mine is a 20" iMac, not a 24" iMac. But the same reflection issues would apply with a 24" model on the same desktop, there would just be more space on the display. It's the angle that's the issue. Why would you put ANY display high enough that you'd be looking "up" at it? That's not ergonomically sound, and it would be very uncomfortable for me.
The way I put the display, I'm not looking up at it, just straight to it. Feeling that I am "centered" in the screen, both horizontally and vertically, is the only position that feels natural to me. Of course, this is absolutely a matter of personal taste. It's just that your posture actually helps reduce the reflections.
     
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Sep 7, 2007, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
.... I am both close enough and wide enough that sunlight on the wall behind me simply makes no difference in the way the display looks.
Guess we all need to bulk up to use this model, and Apple will note the minimum weight requirement for safe usage.

... I just happened to put the iMac in this spot and it has worked great for me.
Happenchance should not be a requirement for comfortable viewing. I think from your description you may be also unaware of the subtle refections that still would effect the quality of what you see on screen.

Here's my room from the builder's floor plan:

The window in the lower right corner of the room faces northwest (almost perfectly).
You seem to have the plan rotated from your description but we get the idea. I take it you are in the States and the sun is to your south?

Where I am the daytime lighting is usually bright & clear with strong sunlight. If you happen to live in a location with overcast skies and diffuse lighting it may reduce the problem, although artificial light could still affect the screen.

I can't speak for you but my suspicion is that you still have reflections but are simply unaware of them for what ever reason. A large part of what we see is psychological, as any photographer can tell you.

I was on a restaurant shoot where the owner had covered all the advertising on his outdoor umbrellas with screen printed cardboard signs with his restaurant name on them. Pleased with his idea he wouldn't listen to the photographer that this would be obvious in the photos.

When the proofs came back he still couldn't see the obvious subterfuge and we had to spend considerable money on an airbrush artist (this was pre-Photoshop) to fix the problem.

PS There is a notable difference between the 20" and 24". The 24" presents a much wider range of angles when viewing it. It is not as blocked by your body and catches that much more refelections. Still going black face and wearing a black T-shirt will be advisable,. Then all you will notice is the silhouette against your lighter background
( Last edited by rubaiyat; Sep 7, 2007 at 05:45 PM. )
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rubaiyat
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Sep 7, 2007, 05:43 PM
 
I am willing to predict that this problem will suddenly be acknowledged with the next model that loudly "Isn't shiny".

I am also willing to predict that all those who thought this model was "beautiful" because they simply see "new" and "latest" when they look at it, will suddenly notice the harsh contrasts and oddball combination with the white plastic mouse.

As Oscar Wilde said, "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months."

This model will be the motherless Edsel of the iMac line and I look forward to its replacement.
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ghporter
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Sep 7, 2007, 07:54 PM
 
rubiyat, I do not have reflections-I've posted pictures that show this. Yes, my location (as shown in each of my posts) is San Antonio, Texas, and the sun is somewhat to my south. And I didn't "rotate" the snip from the floor plan; as I pointed out, it's straight from the builder's floor plan and it's conventional to print these with the front of the house at the bottom of the page. Had I taken the time to use something like Photoshop to tweak the picture, I'd have rotated it 90º and indicated which direction North was.

I think the snide and caustic remarks detract from what you seem to be saying. I am 6' 2.5" tall and approximately 19" wide-this is considered slightly broad shouldered for my height. While I'm no athlete, I'm not huge either and while I probably opened myself up to your sideways insult, the point is that the actual screen width on the 20" iMac is 17", so anyone of what is considered "normal" width for an adult man (anywhere from 15" to 22"+ depending on frame) should be able to "block" reflections from behind them. Obviously the 24" display is both taller and wider, but it's still only about 19" wide-hardly an enormous difference.

Unless you have your room flooded with huge amounts of light (I'm thinking of lighting like on a TV set), there really should not be much chance for reflections to be an issue, as long as one is at least open to rotating the display minimally and tilting it a bit up or down. Mentioning that I "happened" to choose a good spot for my computer was intended to indicate simply that I didn't have to change locations at all, not that I lucked out and found the only possible location where I'd have fewer reflections. This happens to be where my desk is in the room, that's all.

Quoting Wilde does not in any way change the fact that you are convinced of one particular position and no matter what anyone says or demonstrates, you're not going to change your mind.

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Sep 8, 2007, 02:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post
I am willing to predict that this problem will suddenly be acknowledged with the next model that loudly "Isn't shiny".
I am also willing to predict that all those who thought this model was "beautiful" because they simply see "new" and "latest" when they look at it, will suddenly notice the harsh contrasts and oddball combination with the white plastic mouse.
Yeah, that'll certainly happen because all along you knew the bare truth and everybody that had another opinion was just outright delusional. I'm so glad we have you here to tell us how it really is.
     
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Sep 8, 2007, 03:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
There are indications someone with Apple does read these forums. But I don't see any floor plan that's so constrained that it would prevent a good, comfortable position for an iMac that still didn't get tons of glare and reflections. I saw absolutely NO "glare" on the display models at the Apple Store, and I just put mine down on my desk and never worried about it.

If you put a piece of plain glass with black paper or cloth behind it, you can simulate the iMac's screen. Avoiding reflections and glare could be as little trouble as angling the machine a little bit. Try the glass thing (like a cheap picture frame with something black in it) and see what I mean.
Lots of glare on the iMacs at the Apple Store I went to (Tucson, Arizona). Quite distracting.

My MacBook is fine at home... but I don't use my laptop at home anyway. It's also fine in the dimmed light of my hotel room from where I'm currently posting. However, it's kinda annoying in the morning in my office, because of the glare.

Nonetheless, I suspect that there will never be another matte-screen iMac in this form factor.
     
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Sep 8, 2007, 07:57 AM
 
Eug, can you describe why mornings are bad for glare? Do you have a lot of light sources or something? I'm realizing that having my iMac in a corner makes it far less susceptible to reflections because my left side is pretty much next to a wall that doesn't face a window. If you're having a lot of glare and stuff at a particular time of day, that sounds like you have a bunch of eastward-facing windows or something.

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