[OAW]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Chinese border, possibly. South Korean border, not going to happen. There that nasty little area known as the DMZ between the N&S, and it's heavily mined.

Perhaps. But there's other ways to get from the North to the South than across the DMZ. Imagine a steady stream of North Koreans heading to the South by boat. That would make the Mariel Boat Lift out of Cuba look miniscule in comparison.

My point though stands. None of North Korea's neighbors see it as being in their interest for the regime to collapse. Some of the comments made in this thread are beyond misguided. All that "rah rah Go America bomb them back into the Stone Age" BS is quite sophomoric. Sure ... it's cool for indulging one's Rambo fantasies .... but in the real world military action on that scale has dire consequences. And the negative fallout wouldn't affect the North Koreans alone.

OAW

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by OAW 

And when North Korea collapses and hundreds of thousands if not millions of its citizens start pouring over the Chinese and South Korean borders then what? Has it occurred to you that both China and South Korea agree that this would be a catastrophe for their countries? Which is why, thus far, they have both pursued policies that would not threaten the stability of the North Korean regime?

OAW

Yeah, it was a horrible idea when we essentially did the same things to the Soviet Union. Oh wait...

Once they overthrow their own leadership we can swoop in with aid, food, and economic opportunities. First, we need to get rid of that little bastard and his regime. The people there love their country, but they've been brutalized for so long that they don't understand that there's a difference between the "king and the kingdom".

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Perhaps. But there's other ways to get from the North to the South than across the DMZ. Imagine a steady stream of North Koreans heading to the South by boat. That would make the Mariel Boat Lift out of Cuba look miniscule in comparison.

My point though stands. None of North Korea's neighbors see it as being in their interest for the regime to collapse. Some of the comments made in this thread are beyond misguided. All that "rah rah Go America bomb them back into the Stone Age" BS is quite sophomoric. Sure ... it's cool for indulging one's Rambo fantasies .... but in the real world military action on that scale has dire consequences. And the negative fallout wouldn't affect the North Koreans alone.

OAW

I really enjoy the hyperbole. It's fun to watch, and provides hours of scintillating entertainment, let me tell you. However, since we weren't promoting an actual military strike, we can get back to the subject at hand.


The proposal is to get the citizens of that country to reject and overthrow their own leadership, which in the end will make their freedom even more valuable to them. I don't think anyone with common sense would say that endorsing, or even promoting, such actions would be worse than the eastern cold war that's being fought now.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

As I posted above, the Japanese constitution forbids the use of military force. The "Japan Self-Defense Forces" are part of the national police.

I'm well-aware of Article 9 of the Japanese constitution, google tatemae: the Jietai is an army and will be used as such.

[torsoboy]

And yet another missle fired from North Korea: North Korea fires short-range missile | Reuters

They have some end-goal in mind, that's for sure.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

The proposal is to get the citizens of that country to reject and overthrow their own leadership, which in the end will make their freedom even more valuable to them. I don't think anyone with common sense would say that endorsing, or even promoting, such actions would be worse than the eastern cold war that's being fought now.

Do you think that strategy (waiting for the local populace to rise up and overthrow their ruthless, tyrannical dictator) will work in North Korea? That same approach to dealing with Iraq was dismissed out of hand as impossible by the previous administration yet both Iraq and North Korea are part of the same Axis of Evil.

[PB2K]

the current low-yield nuclear blasts might indicate North-Korea is testing miniaturized weapons, to be delivered by rocket or trafficing. Anyway, they won't stand a chance if they try to do a first strike.

also, it is very possible the low yield blasts are not by nukes but by conventional explosives.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

N.K. doesn't test nukes or ICBMs just to show off how badass they think they are- they do it as an advertisement to other rogue nations of what wares they have for sale. They'll be taking bids from nutty third world tinhorns who call the super-secret 1-800 number. Operators are standing by.

They also do it to get freebies from gullible/naive US administrations in exchange for "behaving" - at least until they want more freebies and the cycle starts over again.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by PB2K 

the current low-yield nuclear blasts might indicate North-Korea is testing miniaturized weapons, to be delivered by rocket or trafficing. Anyway, they won't stand a chance if they try to do a first strike.

I don't think they test miniaturized warheads, they're (relatively) high-tech. There are plenty of indications that the first test was actually a failure and the second one is a bomb of the size of the first-gen nuclear bombs of the US and the USSR.

Basically, I think they went for the most primitive and well-known design and copied it.

@Crash
What does North Korea want in exchange for the technology? Even if they sell the technology (which they have bought from Pakistan and Russia/the Russian black market), they cannot export anything out of the country.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

@Crash
What does North Korea want in exchange for the technology?

mmmmmmmmmoney. I know, I know. When is that ever a motivation for anything?

North Korea's claimed test of a nuclear weapon is only the tip of what frightens the rest of the world. It's all the more worrisome because the country has shown itself to be a virtual bazaar for spreading missiles, conventional weapons and nuclear technology around the globe.

According to U.S. officials and outside experts, Pyongyang has sold its military goods to at least 18 countries, mostly in Africa and the Middle East. That's a good indication, officials warn, that North Korea might sell nuclear weapons if doing so would bring hard currency into the isolated, impoverished communist state.

[Gavin]

There is not going to be a revolt - the people are too cowed. The whole place is like a giant cult. The rumor is that many apartment buildings in the city have explosives hidden in the basement so if they are invaded they will blow up their own civilians by the hundreds of thousands and blame the americans. Imagine a giant Jonestown massacre. On top of that they will definitely attack Seoul with rockets and mortars, they can hit most of the population of South Korea with artillery. The civilian death toll would be unprecedented. The situation is like a hostage standoff.

This is why there was never any talk of invasion coming out of the bush administration. We heard about plans for Iraq, and even Iran but not North Korea.

I think the best we can hope for is a factional coup.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

mmmmmmmmmoney. I know, I know. When is that ever a motivation for anything?

The thing is: if that's `all' North Korea is doing, then we don't have to worry about it in particular. It has bought its technology from Pakistan and Russia, so we should better worry about these countries. We should also add the names of smaller, former Soviet republics that also have some nuclear left-overs.

My point is just that if all that was to the conflict were the prevention of nuclear proliferation, then North Korea would hardly deserve the attention it gets.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The thing is: if that's `all' North Korea is doing, then we don't have to worry about it in particular.

I'm not talking about being worried about it. People ascribe all these silly notions of N.K. showing off arms as if the main goal is to attack the western powers with them. No. It's merely a show for their customers; proof that the product really works. Think about it; the bigger the reaction from western powers, the more legit (and valuable) the product.

People can worry or not, but that's what they've always been up to. N.K. is little more than a criminal regime that makes an income for it's crazy dictator via drug trafficking and arms dealing, and is savvy enough to know how to sponge off of useful idiot western diplomats. The people of N.K. are nothing but slave labor, but Kim Jong il has a pretty good thing going.

My point is just that if all that was to the conflict were the prevention of nuclear proliferation, then North Korea would hardly deserve the attention it gets.

That's a bit short-sighted. N.K. can do whatever crazy **** they want, including genocide on top of holocaust on one side of an imaginary line, we've established that already. But if they step over the imaginary line and sell nuclear technology to Syria, Iran, or some crazy tinhorn somewhere, the few responsible powers remaining in the world have an obligation to drop bombs on any known weapons cache or facility. Israel already did the world a favor by taking out a suspected N.K. plutonium plant in Syria. Unlike much of the world, they were unwilling to just go to sleep while the chance of ACTUAL nuclear proliferation among complete whackjobs goes unchecked anywhere in their neck of the woods.

[Chuckit]

If North Korea's purpose is to show that their product works, they're doing a pretty lousy job so far, aren't they?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Think about it; the bigger the reaction from western powers, the more legit (and valuable) the product.

No. If I'm seriously interested, I just read the news more carefully and find out that the first test was a failure and the second one a moderate success. The increased attention is something I (as a potential customer) do no want! I'd rather try to get my hands on proven Soviet or Pakistani technology at the moment.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

That's a bit short-sighted. N.K. can do whatever crazy **** they want, including genocide on top of holocaust on one side of an imaginary line, we've established that already.

I don't like when people throw bad words around as if they were candy on carneval (as if holocaust wasn't bad enough, they are also interested in genocide!!!!). North Korea does not commit genocide (the holocaust is a specific genocide and the phrase `genocide on top of holocaust' doesn't even make sense). Your wording just contributes to hysteria rather than helping to form an understanding of the situation.

I don't think it's myopic when you're talking about one specific problem, the proliferation of nuclear technology, then there are other countries/regions that are at least of the same importance. And the proliferation of nuclear technologies has a priori nothing to do with military issues, that's a separate problem (and the reason why North Korea is different from Pakistan, for instance).

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

But if they step over the imaginary line and sell nuclear technology to Syria, Iran, or some crazy tinhorn somewhere, the few responsible powers remaining in the world have an obligation to drop bombs on any known weapons cache or facility.

I got a news flash for you: at least Iran, North Korea and Libya have already bought nuclear technology from Pakistan, and with the exception of Libya which has abandoned its nuclear ambitions, these are more pressing issues. The imaginary line has already been nullified.

[olePigeon]

Just heard on the news that North Korea has positioned its missiles along its southern border.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

If North Korea's purpose is to show that their product works, they're doing a pretty lousy job so far, aren't they?

Just how "successful" would you like them to be? They've already sold nuclear materials to Syria, and had to have their scientists shipped back home in boxes after the Israelis took action. They have a long list of buyers of conventional weapons- who the hell wants them to do a better job of finding nutty dictatorships to sell nukes to?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

No. If I'm seriously interested, I just read the news more carefully and find out that the first test was a failure and the second one a moderate success.

I'm curious who you think the customer base is, and what they plan to do with nukes? "Moderate success"- by western standards even- and you, a westerner calling it that is part of the advertising I'm talking about. Among the type of shady nutcases a country like N.K. is looking to deal with, that's pretty much the gold standard.

The increased attention is something I (as a potential customer) do no want! I'd rather try to get my hands on proven Soviet or Pakistani technology at the moment.

Your logic is deeply flawed here. So rogue nations suddenly care about increased attention on one potential source of weapons- so they should go with other even more well known sources. That doesn't make any sense, to say nothing of the fact that it's a non-argument. Who in the world ever thought there was only one global arms dealer, and what does just stating the obvious have to do with North Korea?

I don't like when people throw bad words around

Oh boo hoo. Stop kneejerking over labels and learn some reading comprehension. The point is, it's been long established that N.K. can do whatever it wants withing an imaginary line, and no one in the world will lift a finger to stop it. The imaginary line is called a border by the way. If Kim Jong il starved to death half the people of N.K- call it whatever label suits your delicate tastes- a slumber party- then he could have his slumber party, and no one else in the world would lift a finger. Most in the west would barely bat an eyelash. When someone does try and take out a dictator, we see what happens- the whole world whines and stomps it feet over it. So that's an established fact- he can do whatever he wants inside of an imaginary line. Outside of that line, say, a nuclear facility in Syria- bombs can fall and North Korean scientists get shipped home in pine boxes.

I got a news flash for you: at least Iran, North Korea and Libya have already bought nuclear technology from Pakistan, and with the exception of Libya which has abandoned its nuclear ambitions, these are more pressing issues. The imaginary line has already been nullified.

Again, reading comprehension. Start with the thread title.

Feel free to start your own thread about What YOU think should be done about Pakistan or Russia.

[olePigeon]

North Korea has mobilized their army to the southern border. I hope it's posturing. South Korea and Japan in some seriously potential trouble.

[OreoCookie]

Kim Jong Il's son Kim Jong Un has been chosen to be North Korea's next leader. Apparently he has studied in Switzerland … didn't know that.

[torsoboy]

12 years hard labor for the captured journalists?? I say that Kim Jong deserves to be taken out of power. No question in my mind.

North Korea jails U.S. journalists, warns U.N. | Reuters

[ort888]

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0081105f1.html

You know, **** it. **** these guys. Let's take them out. I have changed my mind.

[PB2K]

north korean beer brewery movie

so it's not THAT bad

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by ort888 

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0081105f1.html

You know, **** it. **** these guys. Let's take them out. I have changed my mind.

That article is terribly distressing. The people of North Korea are being wholly dehumanized and brainwashed to the point that they are incapable of feeling normal human emotions.

This isn't a situation where we can just stand by and attempt diplomacy with a crazed dictator who has shown that he cannot be reasoned with. People are dying every day at the hands of this man and his prison camps. I believe the United States has a moral obligation to do something to stop him and dismantle the communist regime in North Korea. Whether or not we'll ever do something about it is a different story, but if you ask me, this man cannot be allowed to continue his tyranny.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by PB2K 

north korean beer brewery movie

so it's not THAT bad

Yeah, communist propaganda has a weird way of making a regime look like a fuzzy puppy.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

This isn't a situation where we can just stand by and attempt diplomacy with a crazed dictator who has shown that he cannot be reasoned with.

'Tis funny, but this is how most of the rest of the World feels about Amerika (just sayin').

NK fired a missile or two and breached a UN resolution. Time to sit back and let the UN do the work while you colonials worry about your economy.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

This isn't a situation where we can just stand by and attempt diplomacy with a crazed dictator who has shown that he cannot be reasoned with. People are dying every day at the hands of this man and his prison camps. I believe the United States has a moral obligation to do something to stop him and dismantle the communist regime in North Korea. Whether or not we'll ever do something about it is a different story, but if you ask me, this man cannot be allowed to continue his tyranny.

Team America... World Police?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Team America... World Police?

Better than

Team America... World Clowns

like many other countries...

-t

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

'Tis funny, but this is how most of the rest of the World feels about Amerika (just sayin').

NK fired a missile or two and breached a UN resolution. Time to sit back and let the UN do the work while you colonials worry about your economy.

You strike me as one of those people who's still bitter about the United States claiming independence from Great Britain.

I find it hard to believe that any sane person would compare life the United States to the oppression going on in countries like North Korea, Cuba, and China.

But hey, if you think we deserve to get nuked, go for it. I'm sure the repercussions won't be anything you can't handle.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I find it hard to believe that any sane person would compare life the United States to the oppression going on in countries like North Korea, Cuba, and China.

Oh, but they do. It's similar to how the United States will get mercilessly derided for any misstep on the international stage, but if some crackpot dictator starts committing genocide or threatening nuclear war, people are like, "Hey, we need to be diplomatic here." It's a weird double standard.

[DBursey]

your selections represent a choice of truly moronic proportions

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Oh, but they do. It's similar to how the United States will get mercilessly derided for any misstep on the international stage, but if some crackpot dictator starts committing genocide or threatening nuclear war, people are like, "Hey, we need to be diplomatic here." It's a weird double standard.

That's just sad.

Of course, the statistics speak for themselves - it seems far more people are begging to get into the United States, rather than to leave it - one would think that this indicates that the U.S. is a pretty happenin' place to be, but I guess it's all subjective.

Personally, I thank God directly some days that I'm living in the U.S. I guess I've been brainwashed into accepting the oppression that comes with free enterprise and capitalism...?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

You strike me as one of those people who's still bitter about the United States claiming independence from Great Britain.

Why would I give a crap about that?

What I give a crap about is your idiots (Barry, Levin, etc.) waging war against the places I stash my money.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I find it hard to believe that any sane person would compare life the United States to the oppression going on in countries like North Korea, Cuba, and China.

Because you've been pounded with "land of the free" since you got out of nappies diapers, you don't realise just how oppressed you are. By the IRS in particular.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

But hey, if you think we deserve to get nuked, go for it.

Why? Are you in danger of being nuked any time soon? Did NK invent their own nuclear sub delivery platform that I haven't heard about or something?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Oh, but they do. It's similar to how the United States will get mercilessly derided for any misstep on the international stage, but if some crackpot dictator starts committing genocide or threatening nuclear war, people are like, "Hey, we need to be diplomatic here." It's a weird double standard.

It ain't a weird double standard at all.

The crackpot dictator doesn't pretend (very hard) to be anything other than a crackpot dictator.

...While Barry very sneakily says "we're gonna shut down tax havens" every three minutes during his election campaign. So, how does the US "shut down" sovereign foreign states without dictating to them with the threat of force?

Thing is, we expect better of you guys. You're supposed to be the shining light of freedom in a dark world. Heck, you keep reminding us about it at the start of each sports event. But somehow your people aren't quite as free as it's painted.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Thing is, we expect better of you guys. You're supposed to be the shining light of freedom in a dark world. Heck, you keep reminding us about it at the start of each sports event. But somehow your people aren't quite as free as it's painted.

I can appreciate your perspective as I would anyone with a substantial portion of their portfolio in American enterprise. Trust me, there are friends of yours within the States that oppose our current Administration's policy of free market demise and it won't be long before the populace once again, votes with their feet. Don't give up on us yet Doofy. After all, it's still better than the totalitarian hole you're subjected to.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It's similar to how the United States will get mercilessly derided for any misstep on the international stage, but if some crackpot dictator starts committing genocide or threatening nuclear war, people are like, "Hey, we need to be diplomatic here." It's a weird double standard.

The US is mercilessly derided for any misstep because it holds itself up as the standard to which every nation should aspire to. When you're in that position, you're going to be criticized when you don't live up to your own standards.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Why would I give a crap about that?

Because your derogatory use of terms like "Amerika" and "colonials"? Americans haven't been called "colonials" since, what, sometime in the 1770s?

Because you've been pounded with "land of the free" since you got out of nappies diapers, you don't realise just how oppressed you are. By the IRS in particular.

Yes, because having freedom of speech and freedom of religion is such oppression. You should know, as a conservative Christian, how brutally Christians are persecuted in dictatorial regimes. Unlike in countries like Pakistan, Christians in the United States aren't forced to live in mortal fear that they'll be persecuted, imprisoned, and even executed simply for professing faith in God instead of Allah.

I won't deny that some of the taxes I have to pay are total bullshit. I won't deny that Social Security is bankrupt. But to compare the IRS to Kim Jong-Il, Castro, or any of the dictators of the former Soviet Union is being willfully ignorant. You do not have markedly more freedom in the United Kingdom compared to the United States.

Love of your country is great - patriotism is a good thing. Comparing Obama to a communist or fascist dictator, however, is idiotic. He does not have total control over the United States. He is not attempting total control over the rest of the world. Obama is an idiot, but he's certainly not trying to follow in the footsteps of Hitler. Or Kim Jong-Il. Or any other of a long list of tyrannical dictators who have their place in history.

Why? Are you in danger of being nuked any time soon? Did NK invent their own nuclear sub delivery platform that I haven't heard about or something?

I was being sarcastic. You seem to hate the United States, so why not just get rid of it?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

You do not have markedly more freedom in the United Kingdom compared to the United States.

Ummm... ...yes I do.

I leave the UK and move to (say) Monaco, I don't pay taxes.
You leave the US and move to Monaco, you continue to pay your federal taxes to the IRS. The IRS owns you.

Other than upgrade my crossbow to a 1911 that I soon won't be able to buy bullets for, what could I do in the US that I can't do in the UK?

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Love of your country is great - patriotism is a good thing.

No it's not. Your country is an abstract concept. Why love an abstract concept? Because you've been told to, that's why.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

You seem to hate the United States

I hate all governments. But since you're so brainwashed with "USA, USA, USA!" you can't actually see that.

Let's see. All I said in this thread was that you should let the UN handle things for a change, and then you launch into the stereotypical brainwashed GOP response. Why?

[Big Mac]

I just did some research regarding taxation of former American citizens, and it isn't as absolutely unfair as you make it sound. If an American citizen renounces his or her citizenship just to avoid American taxation, the feds frown on that. But as long as you're immigrating to a country that has a tax agreement with the United States and you become a citizen of that country, then Uncle Sam won't come calling.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I just did some research regarding taxation of former American citizens, and it isn't as absolutely unfair as you make it sound. If an American citizen renounces his or her citizenship just to avoid American taxation, the feds frown on that. But as long as you're immigrating to a country that has a tax agreement with the United States and you become a citizen of that country, then Uncle Sam won't come calling.

So, the government of the Land Of The Free effectively tells you which countries you can transfer your citizenship to?

Where's the freedom in that?

[Big Mac]

Not much. I didn't say it was the best arrangement possible, but it's not as bad as one could be led to believe.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yes, because having freedom of speech and freedom of religion is such oppression. You should know, as a conservative Christian, how brutally Christians are persecuted in dictatorial regimes. Unlike in countries like Pakistan, Christians in the United States aren't forced to live in mortal fear that they'll be persecuted, imprisoned, and even executed simply for professing faith in God instead of Allah.

I don't think you've thought this through fully.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Let's see. All I said in this thread was that you should let the UN handle things for a change, and then you launch into the stereotypical brainwashed GOP response. Why?

The UN is not capable of handling things itself. I thought that was pretty clear at this point.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

The UN is not capable of handling things itself. I thought that was pretty clear at this point.

I know that. You know that. It's about time the UN figured it out... ...and what better way than by letting them try?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Ummm... ...yes I do.

I leave the UK and move to (say) Monaco, I don't pay taxes.
You leave the US and move to Monaco, you continue to pay your federal taxes to the IRS. The IRS owns you.

I totally agree. Ownership is absolutely the position that the US government takes towards the people, property, and capital of the United States. Unfortunately I'm less convinced than you are that there's anywhere better. Though Monaco does not seem such a bad choice! Personally, Iceland and Israel are my current front-runners, though I haven't done much serious research on the political and logistical practicalities (and Israel is not a political choice for me, so much as a pragmatic one: I could emigrate to Israel and become a citizen with no problem).

Other than upgrade my crossbow to a 1911 that I soon won't be able to buy bullets for, what could I do in the US that I can't do in the UK?

Drive on the right side of the road without turning yourself into a stain on the front of an oncoming lorry? (Admittedly that's not a guarantee in the US either, but it would certainly be safer!) I believe there've been some issues with the ownership of kitchen knives as well in recent years. I seem to recall a case a couple years ago where a woman was arrested for having a kitchen knife in her possession outside of the house, even though she had it because she ran a sausage cart for a living which is where she used it.

No it's not. Your country is an abstract concept. Why love an abstract concept? Because you've been told to, that's why.

I hate all governments. But since you're so brainwashed with "USA, USA, USA!" you can't actually see that.

Let's see. All I said in this thread was that you should let the UN handle things for a change, and then you launch into the stereotypical brainwashed GOP response. Why?

Couldn't agree more. I do have the general impression that I'm more free here in the US than I would be elsewhere, but I'm willing to acknowledge that, at least in some cases, that's got less to do with reality than my own preconception from having grown up in the US.

[harbinger75]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I know that. You know that. It's about time the UN figured it out... ...and what better way than by letting them try?

How many more decades have to go by before the world realizes the U.N. can't handle much of anything? Letting them take charge of an ice cream stand would be a horrible mistake at this point.

Letting the U.N. decide on whether to tie its collective shoe is an idiotic premise at this point. North Korea will be dealt with accordingly, and sanctions ain't gonna do it this time.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Ummm... ...yes I do.

I leave the UK and move to (say) Monaco, I don't pay taxes.
You leave the US and move to Monaco, you continue to pay your federal taxes to the IRS. The IRS owns you.

Other than upgrade my crossbow to a 1911 that I soon won't be able to buy bullets for, what could I do in the US that I can't do in the UK?

Other than the taxation issue, which isn't an issue for the majority of Americans (what percentage of the United States population actually moves toa different country permanently and takes a job there (military excluded)...), what freedoms are you afforded that don't exist in the US?

Hence my use of the modifier "markedly" - yes, living in the UK is not identical to living in the US, but both are relatively equal, particularly compared to living in a country like North Korea. Or China, Cuba, Pakistan, Iran, or any of the countries in Africa that seem to be in a perpetual state of civil war.

Your comparison of the United States to North Korea is just ridiculous. The freedoms we have here are light years beyond what Kim Jong-Il deigns to allow his peons to have.

No it's not. Your country is an abstract concept. Why love an abstract concept? Because you've been told to, that's why.

Okay, let me rephrase: being proud of where you live is a good thing. I'm not ashamed to be an American citizen. I realize that there are plenty of people out there (some Americans themselves) who think that American citizens should hide their citizenship. I am not one of those people. I'm glad I'm an American, and I like this country. It's not because I've been told to like it, and it's not because I'm a brainwashed drone of the imperial great antichrist. It's because I'm happy and like where I live. I like my town, my state, and my country. This is not inherently a bad thing. Your opinion of the United States does not objectively and universally dictate how United States citizens should feel about their homeland.

I hate all governments. But since you're so brainwashed with "USA, USA, USA!" you can't actually see that.

My apologies. Your derogatory reference to American citizens, combined with your frequent misspelling of the word "America", would lead me to believe that harbor some kind of great distaste for the United States as an entity. We aren't really worse off here than you are in the UK - why the constant hate and derision? You don't live here, so why do you have such a problem with those who do?

Let's see. All I said in this thread was that you should let the UN handle things for a change, and then you launch into the stereotypical brainwashed GOP response. Why?

Yes, because the UN has handled things so well in the past. Nothing beats diplomacy when dealing with a sadistic dictator.

I'm fscking sick and tired of people telling me I'm brainwashed. Take a look at my posts here and my Livejournal, and I think you should be able to pretty quickly figure out that I'm the opposite of brainwashed. I've put a hell of a lot more thought into my beliefs and opinions than most people, so please don't lump me in with the masses who just repeat whatever comes out of the mouth of their chosen political party's pundits.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I don't think you've thought this through fully.

Please explain. I know personally several families who lived in Pakistan as Christian missionaries and eventually had to leave because the threat on their very lives was far too great.

People should be thanking their chosen deity (or themselves, if they don't believe in a higher power) every day that in many countries, you can believe whatever the hell you want to believe, because the same cannot be said for some countries.

It's very easy for people in the United States (and other free first-world countries) to completely take for granted how easy our lives are compared to other countries on the planet. I'm guilty of it myself. The fact is, we're not living under an oppressive regime. As the thread about FOX, the FCC, and the First Amendment goes to show, the government does not own the media. We have a choice in our entertainment and news sources, rather than being force-fed propaganda from a totalitarian government that is watching our every move. Sure, you can point out this or that to show some infringement on our freedoms, but that isn't SH!T compared to what people have to deal with in some countries. Re-read that horrific story of the boy who was raised in a North Korean prison camp. Realize that there is nothing like that in the US or, for that matter, anywhere in the EU.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

what freedoms are you afforded that don't exist in the US?

I can gamble online if I so wish.
I can control a foreign corporation without reporting it to the taxman.

The point is that the UK national anthem doesn't go on about being "the land of the free". Yours does, so why can't you smoke a doobie if you want to? Why can't you marry more than one person if you want to? Why can't you walk around on Malibu Beach with yer boobies out?

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

My apologies. Your derogatory reference to American citizens

What derogatory reference is that? "Colonials"?

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

combined with your frequent misspelling of the word "America"

You mean "Amerika"? Courtesy of your state department. Go look it up.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

would lead me to believe that harbor some kind of great distaste for the United States as an entity. We aren't really worse off here than you are in the UK - why the constant hate and derision? You don't live here, so why do you have such a problem with those who do?

I've told you why I have a major problem with your government. You try to dictate how sovereign foreign states do business and try to back it up with threats and force. Those sovereign foreign states are where I stash my money.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yes, because the UN has handled things so well in the past. Nothing beats diplomacy when dealing with a sadistic dictator.

So what you gonna do? Have a draft and send a bunch of your kids over there to sort it all out? Again?

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I'm fscking sick and tired of people telling me I'm brainwashed.

So, regular occurrence then?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Yes, because the UN has handled things so well in the past. Nothing beats diplomacy when dealing with a sadistic dictator.

I'll tell you what does beat diplomacy though - starting a cold war with a well-armed sadistic dictator.... no wait! What? Wait!

Sure, you can point out this or that to show some infringement on our freedoms, but that isn't SH!T compared to what people have to deal with in some countries. Re-read that horrific story of the boy who was raised in a North Korean prison camp. Realize that there is nothing like that in the US or, for that matter, anywhere in the EU.

Leaving aside for a minute the mildly interesting yet relevant side note that is Guantanamo Bay, I've heard that China also has some prison camps against which the USA and EU cannot compare. But I assume you're not up in arms because... they make your cheap-ass computer processors you love so much?

Or is it just because... they're not quote THAT bad?

(See: Myanmar/Burma, Russia, etc. etc. etc.)

I'm fscking sick and tired of people telling me I'm brainwashed. Take a look at my posts here and my Livejournal, and I think you should be able to pretty quickly figure out that I'm the opposite of brainwashed.

Angry arguing on the internets: cheap
Angry ranting on Livejournal: also cheap
Angry arguing on the internets telling people to refer to your Livejournal rants to prove you're a unique snowflake: priceless



greg

[shifuimam]

Woe is me for living in the oppressive regime of the United States. I'm going to go kill myself now.

Christ.