[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

Explain to me 600+ destroyed mosques and other religious objects by Orthodox Cristians during the serb aggression on Bosnia. Not trying to be a smart-a**, but could there be some parallels drawn?

Did they identify themselves as "Christians" ? Who put a stop to that lunacy ? who played concerts to raise funds for the victims ? which troops faught against Milosevich ? Which country was on the forefront against Milosevich ? Who is taking Milosevich to trial ?

Milosevich was met by both political and public outrage from all of Chrisendom. which is a heck of a lot more that can be said of the muslim public regarding AQ, JI, Hammas, etc... sure when AQ (probably accidentally) kills some muslims at a hotel in a muslim country, they get outraged, but when it's Christians, Jews, Hindus, Budhists that are being targetted there's narry a whisper, let alone condolonces or funds raised for the victims from the countries that harbour the terrorists.

I take offece at being called a 'neo-nazi', a national socalist such as Hitler looked to 'purify' his area from all those not like him/his race. The side i firmly stand on, promote and protect, does the exact opposite of that. Europe, the Americas, Australia and the rest of the free world....embrasses everyone on their shores, and personally, i wouldnt have it any other way. But i cant tolerate one thing, as it conflicts with the sheer foundation of our societies.... intolerance. Which is a lot more than can be said of the countries in the Arabian peninsular, and the muslim world at large, which has over time managed to expull the Christians and Jews(who mostly fled to Europe), Armenians (who were almost completely killed off) and the Persians who (like Freedy Mercury...yes it was that recent) fled to India. Neo-nazis ? take a closer look at the policies and practices on your side of the fence buddy.

As far as terrorists killing indiscriminantly, i have to point out that they do discriminate.....by religion. not economic status, not skin color, not political inclination....religion.

Cheers

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

For those clumping all Moslems into the same pot, please read http://www.meforum.org/article/166 for some much-needed clarifications.



Explain to me 600+ destroyed mosques and other religious objects by Orthodox Cristians during the serb aggression on Bosnia. Not trying to be a smart-a**, but could there be some parallels drawn?

Possibly. But I can't say for sure if there are any parallels. I DO know that there was a Muslim division of the Nazi war machine in WWII in the Bosnian area. Now, if we do some research maybe we'd be able to determine if the Muslims there we peacefully minding their business before the violence you cite in your post happened, or if they were just following what the Quran instructed them to do, which may have pissed the non-Muslims off and led them to respond violently.

During the Second World War the Croats created a Nazi state which extended over Bosnia as well, a state which massacred Serbs and Jews. The Bosnian Muslims were incited by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Hussayni. A Muslim S.S. division ("Hanjar"- the dagger) murdered Jews. The Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia initiated a rebellion against the Germans in which 1.7 million, 11% of the total population lost their lives. The Partisans captured vast areas of territory, pinned down thirty Nazi divisions which were severely disabled, disarmed six Italian divisions and became an army a quarter million strong. Yugoslavia was the only European country which liberated itself.

NATO Continues Extensive Bombing Across Bosnia
By Daniel Williams
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, August 31, 1995; Page A01

NAPLES, Aug. 30 -- NATO warplanes, dodging antiaircraft gunfire and missiles, continued a massive assault on Serb military positions around Bosnia today in an effort to force the Bosnian Serb leadership to cease attacks on Sarajevo and other Muslim-held cities and agree to a peace settlement in the 3 1/2-year-old war.

U.S., French, British and Dutch jets, flying in darkness from air bases in Italy and the U.S. aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt in the Adriatic Sea, attacked targets near Sarajevo, the government-held cities of Tuzla, Mostar and Gorazde and the Serb stronghold of Pale, where a French plane was shot down. It was the biggest air operation in NATO's history and the largest in Europe since World War II.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ories/nato.htm

And, i'll remind you, when Europe couldn't stop the violence against the Muslims, who could and DID save them?

The USA and NATO.

And I too, like most Americans, was ALL FOR IT.

We did something that EVERYONE said was impossible. We stopped a war using ONLY air bombardment.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Did they identify themselves as "Christians" ? Who put a stop to that lunacy ? who played concerts to raise funds for the victims ? which troops faught against Milosevich ? Which country was on the forefront against Milosevich ? Who is taking Milosevich to trial ?

Milosevich was met by both political and public outrage from all of Chrisendom. which is a heck of a lot more that can be said of the muslim public regarding AQ, JI, Hammas, etc... sure when AQ (probably accidentally) kills some muslims at a hotel in a muslim country, they get outraged, but when it's Christians, Jews, Hindus, Budhists that are being targetted there's narry a whisper, let alone condolonces or funds raised for the victims from the countries that harbour the terrorists.

I take offece at being called a 'neo-nazi', a national socalist such as Hitler looked to 'purify' his area from all those not like him/his race. The side i firmly stand on, promote and protect, does the exact opposite of that. Europe, the Americas, Australia and the rest of the free world....embrasses everyone on their shores, and personally, i wouldnt have it any other way. But i cant tolerate one thing, as it conflicts with the sheer foundation of our societies.... intolerance. Which is a lot more than can be said of the countries in the Arabian peninsular, and the muslim world at large, which has over time managed to expull the Christians and Jews(who mostly fled to Europe), Armenians (who were almost completely killed off) and the Persians who (like Freedy Mercury...yes it was that recent) fled to India. Neo-nazis ? take a closer look at the policies and practices on your side of the fence buddy.

As far as terrorists killing indiscriminantly, i have to point out that they do discriminate.....by religion. not economic status, not skin color, not political inclination....religion.

Cheers

Great post! BTW, NONE of the people he has called neo-Nazi's are as he says they are. I don't even bother denying it but I will just for the record. I am not a Neo-Nazi. I am not a racist. I do not hate Muslims. And, as for the AQ attack in Jordan? I heard on the radio the woman saying she saw the people and the children there in the hotel and they MUST have seen they were Muslim.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Possibly. But I can't say for sure if there are any parallels. I DO know that there was a Muslim division of the Nazi war machine in WWII in the Bosnian area. Now, if we do some research maybe we'd be able to determine if the Muslims there we peacefully minding their business before the violence you cite in your post happened, or if they were just following what the Quran instructed them to do, which may have pissed the non-Muslims off and led them to respond violently.

It's worth noting that the people who Milosevic was fighting against were, until two months before the NATO action, classed as a terrorist organisation by the US government.

The animosity between certain groups of people in that area of the World have been going on for hundreds of years - ever since the "defensive action" against it (*cough*invasion*cough*) by the Ottoman Empire. Any ideas what religion the Ottoman Empire was. Anyone?

To bring us up to date, here's a little snippet about Kosovo from Wiki:

Its Albanian population referred to the province as the Republic of Kosovo between 1990 and 1999 and declared it an independent state*, though this was recognized abroad only by Albania**.

* Hmmm... Surely not another intifada?
** Wonder what religion Albania is?

[Pendergast]

You understand placebo1969, we start from a simple question, related to one event, and generalize to a whole population.

Details make the world. Forget about what has happened. It now has NATO involved, Bosnia, Al Qaeda and what-have-you.

Btw, mojo2, am I Muslim?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

You understand placebo1969, we start from a simple question, related to one event, and generalize to a whole population.

Details make the world. Forgetb abouty what has happened. It now has NATO involved, Bosnia, Al Qaeda and what-have-you.

It's quite easy really. It's all inter-related. What's happening there in Pakistan is quite simply the last phase (remove every other religion) of an islamic invasion. It happens all over the World (although, obviously is at different phases in different countries). Bosnia is in a starting-out phase. It's the exact same process everywhere.

But don't take my word for it - go and look at the histories of every islamic country.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Did they identify themselves as "Christians" ?

Sure they did.

Who put a stop to that lunacy ?

The thousands of civilians that died before the 'free world" finally did something, unlike Kuwait.

who played concerts to raise funds for the victims ?

Many western groups, mainly U2, and a big thanks to them.

which troops faught against Milosevich ?

Don't know what you are trying to say.

Which country was on the forefront against Milosevich ?

Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia later joined by the UN and NATO.

Who is taking Milosevich to trial ?

The International War Crimes Tribunal.

Milosevich was met by both political and public outrage from all of Chrisendom.

As I remember, Russia, France and Britain where the foreruners for stalling any and all aid (military and humanitarian) to the Bosniaks. In addition, aid flowed freely from the Eastern Slavik countries into Serbia, including volunteers and fuel.

[QUOTE]...rant remainder...[QUOTE]
I do not knpow what you were trying to say, again.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by Doofy

It's worth noting that the people who Milosevic was fighting against were, until two months before the NATO action, classed as a terrorist organisation by the US government.

Who would that be?

Originally Posted by Doofy

The animosity between certain groups of people in that area of the World have been going on for hundreds of years - ever since the "defensive action" against it (*cough*invasion*cough*) by the Ottoman Empire. Any ideas what religion the Ottoman Empire was. Anyone?

Er, Islam?

I don't even know why I keep responding to such preposterous comments.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

You understand placebo1969, we start from a simple question, related to one event, and generalize to a whole population.

Details make the world. Forgetb abouty what has happened. It now has NATO involved, Bosnia, Al Qaeda and what-have-you.

Btw, mojo2, am I Muslim?

I'll stop being a dead horse. I saw the article, thought of the intolerance (in my mind) and made a post. I don't post a lot here and rarely start a thread. If anyone is upset because of the thread, that wasn't my intention.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Possibly. But I can't say for sure if there are any parallels. I DO know that there was a Muslim division of the Nazi war machine in WWII in the Bosnian area. Now, if we do some research maybe we'd be able to determine if the Muslims there we peacefully minding their business before the violence you cite in your post happened, or if they were just following what the Quran instructed them to do, which may have pissed the non-Muslims off and led them to respond violently.

OK, you obviously do not know what you are talking about, do you?

Does an internationaly overseen referendum of a country, in which the majority of the population voted for independance, constitutes "pissing-off non-muslims' and the right to start an all out aggression and ethnic cleansing of non-serbs? If that is true, Hitler was right then too, no?

Originally Posted by mojo2

And, i'll remind you, when Europe couldn't stop the violence against the Muslims, who could and DID save them?
The USA and NATO.

US units were under direct NATO command, hence NATO only.

Originally Posted by mojo2

Possibly. But I can't say for sure if there are any parallels. I DO know that there was a Muslim division of the Nazi war machine in WWII in the Bosnian area.

Furthermore, there were also Croation SS units, as well as serbian. There was one Bosniak division, the 13th. SS Waffen-Gebirgs-Division, that existed for about a year (1943-1944). More info here.
http://www.feldgrau.com/13ss.html
If you realy want to get some facts (straight) please read Noel Malcolm's Short History of Bosnia.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

Sure they did.

really ? when where ? i dont remember them referring ot themselves as crusaders,etc, and waging a war against all muslims ?

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

The thousands of civilians that died before the 'free world" finally did something, unlike Kuwait.

The free world isnt the bodyguard of nations that have been feuding for millenia. We get to choose who we help and who we dont. The nations of the free world are under no obligation to fight anyone's wars, just like any nation. And where was the "muslim world" when all this was happening to thousands of muslims ?

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

Many western groups, mainly U2, and a big thanks to them.

No Boundaries, which i am a proud owner of(CD). Including music from the likes of....Pearl Jam, Alanis Morissette, Oasis, Neil Young, Jamiroquai, Peter gabriel, The Wallflowers, Sarah McLachlan. Find me one instance where a muslim arists/band/community raised funds for the sufferings of the Armenians, Israelis, Persians, etc. ? Also please note....most of the bands who did raise funds for Bosnia were predominantely Christians and/or Jews.

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

Don't know what you are trying to say.

If Milocevich was an extremist/trouble maker/racist/facist ....he was in Europe and It was Europe and the U.S. who brought him down. U.S. and Europe are major parts of Chrisendom(since most of the populations are Christian), therefore most of the people fighting against Milocevich were non-muslims. How many muslim armies have been fighting against AQ, JI, Hammas, etc ?

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia later joined by the UN and NATO.

oh ? really ? u might have forgotten the U.S. since many of our tropps were there as well. Any of the major players to bring Milocevich down muslim nations ?

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

The International War Crimes Tribunal.

Set up by which community ? in which country/part of the world ?

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

As I remember, Russia, France and Britain where the foreruners for stalling any and all aid (military and humanitarian) to the Bosniaks. In addition, aid flowed freely from the Eastern Slavik countries into Serbia, including volunteers and fuel.

So...ummm which nations are mostly responsible for stopping Milocevich ? Were they obligated to ? Were they "muslim" nations ?

[QUOTE]...rant remainder...

I do not knpow what you were trying to say, again.

Milocevich was a bad guy, residing/ruling in Chrisendom who commited genocide against muslims. It was the predominantely non-muslim countries who brought him down. Now you have AQ, JI, Hammas, etc...all functioning out of the muslim world, targeting non-muslim civilians and are hailed as heroes in the muslim world. I remember when 9/11 happened they were actually cheering in Palestine on the streets. How about the Muslim world take care of the extreists within their borders ? do they even want to though ?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

The WWII internment camps for the Japanese may have been an unfortunate thing to do. But have you ever thought of this?

You say this yet claim that you are not like the neo-nazis! FFS! Wake up!

The reason many Muslims behave like they do in the West is for a very simple reason. People who have fled wars (Lebanon, Kurdistan, Chechnia, Iran, Iraq, and the list goes on) don't know any other way of dealing with their frustrations. They don't "know" that you can take it to court, they don't know you can go with it to the papers and the list goes on. When people have lived in a warzone for most of their lives violence is the only solution to problems. You will see that in the next generation of Afghanis and Iraqis that will immigrate. Now you are thinking "then why are all these wars in the Muslim world". Well, there are several reasons but no matter what you say you will do the same as Hawkeye and blame the victims so I'll shut up about the reasons.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by mojo2

And, i'll remind you, when Europe couldn't stop the violence against the Muslims, who could and DID save them?

The USA and NATO.

Your ignorance is showing.

We did something that EVERYONE said was impossible. We stopped a war using ONLY air bombardment.

Yup, it was only the air bombardment that stopped the war. Had absolutely nothing to do with the UN soldiers already on the ground.........

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by zwiebel

Sure they did.


The thousands of civilians that died before the 'free world" finally did something, unlike Kuwait.


Many western groups, mainly U2, and a big thanks to them.


Don't know what you are trying to say.


Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia later joined by the UN and NATO.


The International War Crimes Tribunal.


As I remember, Russia, France and Britain where the foreruners for stalling any and all aid (military and humanitarian) to the Bosniaks. In addition, aid flowed freely from the Eastern Slavik countries into Serbia, including volunteers and fuel.

I do not knpow what you were trying to say, again.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

really ? when where ? i dont remember them referring ot themselves as crusaders,etc, and waging a war against all muslims ?

Perhaps you should have been in the area and heard the propaganda radio sent out? Nah, that would cause you to see the truth. Can't have that.

The free world isnt the bodyguard of nations that have been feuding for millenia. We get to choose who we help and who we dont. The nations of the free world are under no obligation to fight anyone's wars, just like any nation. And where was the "muslim world" when all this was happening to thousands of muslims ?

Yup, you get to choose. And because you wait so long when a genocide is happening but act at the exact moment your oil is threatened you are hypocrites.

No Boundaries, which i am a proud owner of(CD). Including music from the likes of....Pearl Jam, Alanis Morissette, Oasis, Neil Young, Jamiroquai, Peter gabriel, The Wallflowers, Sarah McLachlan. Find me one instance where a muslim arists/band/community raised funds for the sufferings of the Armenians, Israelis, Persians, etc. ? Also please note....most of the bands who did raise funds for Bosnia were predominantely Christians and/or Jews.

Nice to see that you always defend those who committed the genocide and ethnic cleansings while trying to deflect the guilt onto another group of people. What's that usually called? Ah yeah.....

If Milocevich was an extremist/trouble maker/racist/facist ....he was in Europe and It was Europe and the U.S. who brought him down. U.S. and Europe are major parts of Chrisendom(since most of the populations are Christian), therefore most of the people fighting against Milocevich were non-muslims. How many muslim armies have been fighting against AQ, JI, Hammas, etc ?

IF!? FFS read at least the basics about the man! He's on trial (and will be found guilty) for comitting the biggest genocide and ethnic cleansings in Europe since WWII! IF!? But do go on deflecting the issue. That's much more easier for such a simple mind as yours than to face the truth.

oh ? really ? u might have forgotten the U.S. since many of our tropps were there as well. Any of the major players to bring Milocevich down muslim nations ?

Aren't you an Aussie? And yes, one of the major players in bringing Miloseviç down was a Muslim nation. Usually called Bosnia. Never heard of it?

So...ummm which nations are mostly responsible for stopping Milocevich ? Were they obligated to ? Were they "muslim" nations ?

Yes, they were obligated!!! When a genocide is being committed every civilised nation is required to stop it!

Milocevich was a bad guy, residing/ruling in Chrisendom who commited genocide against muslims. It was the predominantely non-muslim countries who brought him down. Now you have AQ, JI, Hammas, etc...all functioning out of the muslim world, targeting non-muslim civilians and are hailed as heroes in the muslim world. I remember when 9/11 happened they were actually cheering in Palestine on the streets. How about the Muslim world take care of the extreists within their borders ? do they even want to though ?

It was in one street. One. The perfect example of the power of the media and their responsibility. And as usual they failed. And fueled simple minds like yours hatred.

[von Wrangell]

I'm going to make an attempt at educating Hawkeye and mojo.

1. Muslim nations involved in the peacekeeping missions: Turkey, Tunisia, Nigeria, Malasia, Jordan, Indonesia all were in UNPROFOR.

2. Srebrenica Massacre. Committed by Christian Serbian soldiers under the command of Ratko Mladic. 8000 Bosniaks (Muslim Bosnians) were slaughtered for no other reason than being Muslims.

The Serb paramilitaries who committed this atrocity were blessed by Christian priests before going on their mission.



And this is a small example of the result:



4 minors killed and two who are around 20.

The video: ***warning: link from ogrish and shows the execution***
http://www.***********/archives/2005...tion_video.wmv

3. A famous quote from the war is the following made by the Christian Radovan Karadzic.

"the road to which you want to take Bosnia and Herzegovina is the same highway of hell which Slovenia and Croatia took. Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and the Muslims into annihilation... Muslims can't defend themselves if there is war here"... (Karadžić speaking at the Bosnian parliament, March 4, 1992)

Any claims that this wasn't a war against Muslims is simply a lie.

4. The next time any of you simple minded people start saying internment camps could be a solution: It's alrady been tried.

Omarska

Still in denial?

[Doofy]

Oh dear vW. You're making it sound like the muslims in the area weren't engaging in atrocities on a daily basis. Sure, Milosevic and his boys did some bad, bad things. But it wasn't one-sided. muslim forces were doing exactly the same thing to the Christians.

In fact, a lot of my intelligence points to some of the atrocities which have been pinned on the Serbs actually having been perpetrated by the muslims. (and no, there's no link to the intelligence I got because it's from people on the ground - i.e. some participants KFOR)

But the main point to remember is that none of this would have happened if the Ottoman Empire hadn't "defended themselves" against the area 700 years ago. All of this is the result of a muslim invasion.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

Who would that be?

UÇK

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Oh dear vW. You're making it sound like the muslims in the area weren't engaging in atrocities on a daily basis. Sure, Milosevic and his boys did some bad, bad things. But it wasn't one-sided. muslim forces were doing exactly the same thing to the Christians.

In fact, a lot of my intelligence points to some of the atrocities which have been pinned on the Serbs actually having been perpetrated by the muslims. (and no, there's no link to the intelligence I got because it's from people on the ground - i.e. some participants KFOR)

But the main point to remember is that none of this would have happened if the Ottoman Empire hadn't "defended themselves" against the area 700 years ago.

KFOR? WTF would they know about what happened in Bosnia?

And again, you start blaming the victims of an attempted genocide........ The Bosniaks are not Turks. They are Europeans.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

UÇK

You are showing your ignorance again. UCK operated in Albania. And they were not Muslims.

Want to show your ignorance again?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

KFOR? WTF would they know about what happened in Bosnia?

I wasn't specifically talking about Bosnia - I was actually talking about the Kosovo thing, because that's the easiest to explain. Not that it matters. Those members of KFOR I'm talking about were also actively intelligence gathering over the whole area in the 90's.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And again, you start blaming the victims of an attempted genocide........

Not so. I'm simply saying that it takes two to tango. You're trying to paint "your side" as lily-white. They weren't. It's really that simple.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The Bosniaks are not Turks. They are Europeans.

What's race got to do with it? They're muslims. It's a religion thing, not a race thing.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You are showing your ignorance again. UCK operated in Albania. And they were not Muslims.

Want to show your ignorance again?

*cough* I'm talking about the events in Kosovo. Where the UÇK operated. Sure, they were terrorist-trained in Albania, but they operated in Kosovo (hence "Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës" or "Kosovo Liberation Army").

And yes, they were muslims. And the reason for their existence is the continued concept of "islamic territory" - they want Greater Albania back.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I wasn't specifically talking about Bosnia - I was actually talking about the Kosovo thing, because that's the easiest to explain. Not that it matters. Those members of KFOR I'm talking about were also actively intelligence gathering over the whole area in the 90's.

KFOR wasn't involved at all in Bosnia. They got info from us but that was all they did.

Not so. I'm simply saying that it takes two to tango. You're trying to paint "your side" as lily-white. They weren't. It's really that simple.

No, you are trying to shift the blame onto the victims of an attempted genocide. But I guess that in your mind that is OK as the victims were Muslims. They must have done something to deserve it.....

What's race got to do with it? They're muslims. It's a religion thing, not a race thing.

You are sheltering behind that. But what you are really saying is that for instance the various European governments would have the right (or at least a reason) to kill me as I'm a Muslim.

And btw, the UCK was only called a terrorist organisation by the Yugaslavs. But in your mind that means it's the truth. Because the Yugoslavs were slaughtering Muslims (who deserved to be killed).

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/kla.htm

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

*cough* I'm talking about the events in Kosovo. Where the UÇK operated. Sure, they were terrorist-trained in Albania, but they operated in Kosovo (hence "Ushtria Çlirimtare e Kosovës" or "Kosovo Liberation Army").

And yes, they were muslims. And the reason for their existence is the continued concept of "islamic territory" - they want Greater Albania back.

I thought you had enough of showing your ignorance but I guess I was wrong

Kosovo is 88% Albanian in ethnicity. There were Muslims in the UCK but they were not in the command structure (most were mercenaries) and had no control over the organisation.

But why did you switch to talking about Kosovo and Albania when the topic had already been derailed to Bosnia?

And during a war attacks on policestations and MP's is not considered a terrorist act. But whatever Milosevic the Butcher says is the truth isn't it?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

KFOR wasn't involved at all in Bosnia.

The people who I'm talking about who were part of KFOR were. They didn't just grow new people when they formed KFOR.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No, you are trying to shift the blame onto the victims of an attempted genocide. But I guess that in your mind that is OK as the victims were Muslims. They must have done something to deserve it.....

No. It's never OK. I'm simply refuting your slant that the muslims in the area were completely innocent. They weren't.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You are sheltering behind that. But what you are really saying is that for instance the various European governments would have the right (or at least a reason) to kill me as I'm a Muslim.

No. You're projecting.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And btw, the UCK was only called a terrorist organisation by the Yugaslavs.

And the Americans, until two months before the NATO action against the Serbs.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

But in your mind that means it's the truth. Because the Yugoslavs were slaughtering Muslims (who deserved to be killed).

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have vW coming out with the same old "muslims are the victim and did nothing wrong" story. Sure, some very bad things happened against the muslims down there. But some very bad things were also perpetrated by the muslims.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I thought you had enough of showing your ignorance but I guess I was wrong

Kosovo is 88% Albanian in ethnicity. There were Muslims in the UCK but they were not in the command structure (most were mercenaries) and had no control over the organisation.

BS

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

But why did you switch to talking about Kosovo and Albania when the topic had already been derailed to Bosnia?

Because I haven't got around to researching the Bosnia thing yet. However, the problems in Kosovo are likely to have the same root cause as the problems in Bosnia.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And during a war attacks on policestations and MP's is not considered a terrorist act. But whatever Milosevic the Butcher says is the truth isn't it?

Depends on what you define as war. You've just effectively said that ETA (who believe they're in a war) aren't terrorists.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

The people who I'm talking about who were part of KFOR were. They didn't just grow new people when they formed KFOR.

Why didn't you say that from the start? And if they were, what did they do in Bosnia and with whom?

No. It's never OK. I'm simply refuting your slant that the muslims in the area were completely innocent. They weren't.

What did they do before the war? And when did I say that they were "completely innocent"? And perhaps you could tell me what the four minors who were killed (see link above) did?

No. You're projecting.

I'm sorry but that is the result of your argument. You won't agree with that though since I'm "white".

And the Americans, until two months before the NATO action against the Serbs.

huh? The UCK didn't take up arms until after that.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have vW coming out with the same old "muslims are the victim and did nothing wrong" story. Sure, some very bad things happened against the muslims down there. But some very bad things were also perpetrated by the muslims.

Like what (besides existing)?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

BS

Really? You've been in intel briefings regarding them? Please share your info.

Because I haven't got around to researching the Bosnia thing yet. However, the problems in Kosovo are likely to have the same root cause as the problems in Bosnia.

So you really don't know anything about the situation in Bosnia but still you are able to make these outrageous claims.....

And the root cause wasn't what you think it is in Bosnia. Back to the history books with you.

Depends on what you define as war. You've just effectively said that ETA (who believe they're in a war) aren't terrorists.

ETA has attacked civilians. That makes them terrorists. And the war that was in the Balkans was a true war. You can try to spin it all you want though. Never stopped you before.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Why didn't you say that from the start? And if they were, what did they do in Bosnia and with whom?

British Intel services.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

What did they do before the war? And when did I say that they were "completely innocent"? And perhaps you could tell me what the four minors who were killed (see link above) did?

You're making out like the muslims in the area weren't massacring women and kids. They were.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I'm sorry but that is the result of your argument. You won't agree with that though since I'm "white".

What?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

huh? The UCK didn't take up arms until after that.

That's crap and you know it.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

British Intel services.

The yellow cake fiasco makes a lot more sense now. Thanks

You're making out like the muslims in the area weren't massacring women and kids. They were.

Got a link or two for that?

What?

Think.

That's crap and you know it.

Nope, it's a fact. The UCK didn't start it's "military" campaign until after the NATO bombings.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Really? You've been in intel briefings regarding them? Please share your info.

Let's just say I've got a few friends in intel services.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So you really don't know anything about the situation in Bosnia but still you are able to make these outrageous claims.....

Outrageous? I don't think so. You're telling me that the folks like Milosevic just one day woke up and decided to do a bit of genocide? Or could it have been a reaction to something?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And the root cause wasn't what you think it is in Bosnia. Back to the history books with you.

Nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire then?

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

ETA has attacked civilians. That makes them terrorists. And the war that was in the Balkans was a true war. You can try to spin it all you want though. Never stopped you before.

The UCK was attacking civilians way before the Kosovo "war" started. But, don't let me stop you from supporting terrorism.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Got a link or two for that?

Nope.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Nope, it's a fact. The UCK didn't start it's "military" campaign until after the NATO bombings.

Oh yeah. I forgot. Their operations before the "war" weren't "military", they were "terrorist".

You seriously believe that the UCK just sat around playing cards during the whole of the 90's?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Let's just say I've got a few friends in intel services.

And they brief you? So they aren't much into the secrecy thing of it. Again, the incompetence of your intel services are easier to understand now.

Outrageous? I don't think so. You're telling me that the folks like Milosevic just one day woke up and decided to do a bit of genocide? Or could it have been a reaction to something?

Tell me, what was Hitler reacting to? The Jews must have done something, don't they? See where this argument leads you?

Nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire then?

Less than you think.

The UCK was attacking civilians way before the Kosovo "war" started. But, don't let me stop you from supporting terrorism.

Links?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Nope.

Didn't think so. Sheep don't think.

Oh yeah. I forgot. Their operations before the "war" weren't "military", they were "terrorist".

You seriously believe that the UCK just sat around playing cards during the whole of the 90's?

They were started in 92 as a political organisation. They didn't start their guerilla campaign until 1995. When did NATO start it's actions against Yugoslavia? I'll let you figure that one out.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Tell me, what was Hitler reacting to? The Jews must have done something, don't they?

Jewish dominance in the financial markets. Which obviously Hitler didn't like due to his being a bit of a leftie.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Less than you think.

I don't think so.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Links?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

By May 1998 it effectively controlled a quarter of the province, centered on the region of Drenica, its stronghold being around the village of Donji Prekaz.
The Serbian government was initially uncertain about what to do about the KLA. The Ministry of the Interior (MUP) simply stopped patrolling large areas of Kosovo, while the Yugoslav Army (VJ) often ignored KLA activity. The "shadow government" of the moderate Kosovo Albanian leader Ibrahim Rugova also faced a dilemma, unwilling to endorse the KLA's violent tactics but wary of losing support to the radicals. Its situation was worsened by the assassination by the KLA of a number of moderate Albanians opposed to its activities. The KLA's indiscriminate tactics led to the U.S. State Department adding it to its list of terrorist organisations.

Yes, it's Wiki. Who cares? I got my info from unlinkable sources and this happens to agree with it.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

I'll stop being a dead horse. I saw the article, thought of the intolerance (in my mind) and made a post. I don't post a lot here and rarely start a thread. If anyone is upset because of the thread, that wasn't my intention.

I don't hink you did, I mean, upset anyone. You had a legitimate question, you were upset by the situation, and you arte right to ask the question.

Some of us thought of looking at the particulars of that case, whilst others prefer to use it to justify their heinous propaganda.

That is what I meant by "going from the particular to the general".

I suggest you keep asking questions. Question everyone, every belief, and don't stop, even when you think you have a decent answer, because there is no such thing.

Things are far more complicated than they seem, and satisfaction is often the reward of the lazy, imho.

But sometimes, a cat, is really a cat. You be the judge.

Thank you for bringing a very good question.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Didn't think so. Sheep don't think.

So I can't provide a link (because it was real life info) and you call me a sheep? Very good.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

They were started in 92 as a political organisation. They didn't start their guerilla campaign until 1995. When did NATO start it's actions against Yugoslavia?

March 1999.
SFOR wasn't an action against Serbia, but a peacekeeping mission.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Jewish dominance in the financial markets. Which obviously Hitler didn't like due to his being a bit of a leftie.

So according to you he was justified in doing something about the "Jewish Problem"? Because that is what you've been saying about Milosevic.

I don't think so.

I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

Yes, it's Wiki. Who cares? I got my info from unlinkable sources and this happens to agree with it.

So you were all along talking about the Kosovo war? Which is almost completely unrelated to the topic we were discussing (Bosnia).

Any more unrelated events you want to bring to the table?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

So I can't provide a link (because it was real life info) and you call me a sheep? Very good.

I know.

March 1999.
SFOR wasn't an action against Serbia, but a peacekeeping mission.

Just to show you something. This is what you said when we were talking about Bosnia:

It's worth noting that the people who Milosevic was fighting against were, until two months before the NATO action, classed as a terrorist organisation by the US government.

Next time perhaps you're able to stay on topic, eh? Or perhaps it's easier this way for you to discuss things. By dragging in mostly unrelated events.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So according to you he was justified in doing something about the "Jewish Problem"? Because that is what you've been saying about Milosevic.

Quote where I said Milosevic was justified.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So you were all along talking about the Kosovo war? Which is almost completely unrelated to the topic we were discussing (Bosnia).

Yep. And we were discussing churches being burnt down in Pakistan.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Any more unrelated events you want to bring to the table?

It's all related. No Buddhists involved anywhere.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Next time perhaps you're able to stay on topic, eh?

Riiight. Churches being torched by muslims in Pakistan then

[nath]

I don't know what's funnier - the idea that Doofus is a trusted confidante of intelligence operatives or his quasi-justification of ethnic cleansing.

On with the smackdown!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nath

I don't know what's funnier - the idea that Doofus is a trusted confidante of intelligence operatives or his quasi-justification of ethnic cleansing.

Wait. I simply say that there was ethnic cleansing coming from both sides and you think I'm justifying it? Go back to sleep nath.

What do you think this action against churches in Pakistan is? Yep, that's right. "Ethnic cleansing" (of a kind, since it's actually religious cleansing).

And who's defending that? Yep. That's right. vW and buddies.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Doofy

It's all related. No Buddhists involved anywhere.

My poor child, I will open your eyes!

Don't you know that buddhists are the impediment of all terrorisms?

With their policies of Peace and non-violence, they are a threat to weapon-based economies. They prevent countries with a [i]God-given[i] right to defend themselves against all possible attackers, whether real, potential, or imaginaries!

Those indecent peace-loving, aggressor-appeasing, commie-inspired, vegetarian evil-doer are a treat to capitalism and globalisation!

They walk hand-in-hand with Al-Qaeda, GreenPeace, Lennon fans and Mother Theresa.

You poor naive fool... If you meet a buddhist, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Wait. I simply say that there was ethnic cleansing coming from both sides and you think I'm justifying it? Go back to sleep nath.

What ethnic cleansing came "from the other side"?

What do you think this action against churches in Pakistan is? Yep, that's right. "Ethnic cleansing" (of a kind, since it's actually religious cleansing).

Ethnic cleansins is the term used. And no it isn't ethnic cleansing. It's idiocity. If you are trying to compare that with what happened in Bosnia you need your head checked.

And who's defending that? Yep. That's right. vW and buddies.

I'm defending it? Please show me where I defended it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

What ethnic cleansing came "from the other side"?

Plenty. Go look for it.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Ethnic cleansins is the term used. And no it isn't ethnic cleansing. It's idiocity. If you are trying to compare that with what happened in Bosnia you need your head checked.

It's the same thing.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I'm defending it? Please show me where I defended it.

First, show me where I defended/justified Milosevic.

[Hawkeye_a]

LOL...i support the militaries of the free world taking out Milocevich, and im accused of being a facist neo-nazi.

lol..... The fact that, that general area, Albania-turkey has been a staging point for the muslim invasion of Europe ever since Islam entered the picture bears no consequence on anything. First Jews and Christians are kicked out of Israel (the birthplace of those religions), they flee to Europe, and now these idiots obsessed with territory want to get that as well. lol.

Since vW cant read, i'd like to state once again, that i do never supported Melocevich, and im proud that the U.S. and NATO (for the most part) took care of the problem, which is a heck of a lot more than can be said of the muslim countries in the vicinity. Awww...we didnt help them fast enough ? Grow up and stand on your own two feet, dont expect outside help, and when u get it, you shouldnt complain. be greatful it was actually given. show a bit of class and gratitude to those who risked their lives to stop Milocevich.

vW, you strike me as a lil bitch, who does nothing but bitch and moan. How dare you call us hypocrites ? Where do you live again ? (for those of you who dont know, Iceland (Europe))The way you make Chrisendom sound, you should be seeking asylum in Turkey, Iran or S.Arabia, seeing as how they are so much better. Lord knows no one in Iceland,Europe or all of Chrisendom is stopping you Hypocrite(with a capital H).

Also on the topic of Albania...(i hate to kinda bring in a new matter but here goes)....this is why Turkey should never be allowed into the EU. In fact, why does Turkey want to be part of the EU ?(which just so happens to be mostly christian ?) you;d think they'd be happy getting together with the Muslim world and forming some sort United Arab League or something. And if you dare say economics, ur an idiot. Do you have any idea how much money flows into the mid-east for oil&gas ? but yeah Turkey, part of EU....that'll be the day hell freezes over lol. it's like when you become a citizen of a new nation, you accept their cultures, language, way-of-life, etc....turkey has absolutely nothing in common with any of Europ's nations, religion being the main thing, especially since it has been the focus of many many many wars when they were constantly trying to invade.

But yeah, it's really strange ....this territory thing, this fixation, that the muslim world has today(2005) eh ? i know its a generalization, but heh....of all the wars and conflicts going on(withthe exception of the African subcontinent), almost all of them today involve muslims over disputed territory....with almost every other culture/race on this planet. i guess there's something terribly wrong with the rest of us (5 billion worth of Christians, Hindus, Budhists, etc).
I wonder how democracy plays into this argument ? 5billion vs 1billion.

As far as religion, i dont give a flying fu*k what people beleive. i really dont. you can worship satan for all i care. What pisses me off is when you actively put urself at odds with everyone else who doesnt share your belefs just because they choose something else. thats when it becomes "our" problem.

/end rant in PL (not worth it).

[zwiebel_]

Sorry to have derailed this tread so much, but I felt obligated to respond to some of peoples comments. I do respect everyones view, as it pertains to current situations, but have to be somewhat vocal on the issue of Bosnia.

As for Doofy and Kosovo, you would have to go back to the 14th century and the Battle Kosovo. This is where ultra-nationalist serbs draw their hatred towards Muslims of the Balkan, and Miloseviche's PR machine brainwashed the serb populous. Then, fast-forward to the time after Tito's death up to 1990, and see what happens on Kosovo and their non-serb population (can you say police brutality).

One cannot speak of Bosnia and Bosniaks without knowing the complicated history of the country itself. I am no expert on it either, but am an interested and proud descendant of the Bosniak kings guardian tribe. As you may guess, I do spent a lot of time on research concerning this matter, and had first hand experiences (1986-1993) on the political decline of Bosnia and the subsequent events that unfolded prior and during the serb aggression.

The Bosniak population, and by that I mean every single religion in Bosnia, has suffered greatly throughout history. Literally *all* major, destructive, and bloody battles on the territory of former Yugoslavia during WWII have been conducted on Bosnian territory. The influences of Catholic Christianity from the west and orthodox Christianity from the east have greatly contributed to the disintegration of the national identity of Bosniaks, to such a degree as we saw during the serb aggression on Bosnian territory.

As for Hawkeye_a's blunt remark that the Bosniaks should have "Grow up and stand on your own two feet, dont expect outside help, and when u get it, you shouldnt complain.", I would like to remind him that we did, albeit with bound hands. Military and humanitarian aid from Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Libiya, etc. was juts off-shore on cargo ships, but was not allowed to pass due to the UN embargo that was placed on this region. It did not affect serbia and the serb paramilitary forces since their aid came from Russia via Bulgaria. The lack of defensive weapons of the Bosnian Army was so apparent, that the serbs used mosques for traget practice, knowing that nothing could reach their positions from the other side, shelling away at their own pace. So, thanks, but no thanks.

Furthermore, Hawkeye_a continues his diatribe with labeling Albania and Turkey as staging points for a "muslim invasion", ignoring the fact that the majority of western countries had colonies everywhere in the world, and a very active conversion of native people to chrisitanity program going on for centuries (not that Islam did not have the same).

Be it as it may, I have seen the truth. Thank you for your comments and good luck living in your bubble.

[Hawkeye_a]

Yes, we are fully aware of what the Church did 200-500 years ago. Which is why.....repeat after me now..... we went through our reformations, the church evolved and changed. Why ? because the followers of christianity wanted teh change.

Now, in the year 2005, almost everyone seems to be getting on all aright, except for those in contact with the muslim world. I guess i should name the areas again...... Bosnia, Chechnya, Cyprus, Israel, India, Thailand and Indonesia. The difference being..... the muslim community seems to support geographic conquest the way Chrstians did centuries ago.

As far as the wars in the Balkans. correct me if im wrong, but wernt the muslims residing in the region sepratists as well ? And yeah as far as the U.S. and Nato involvement in the region, i sure as hell am happy we took the high road and took out Milocevich. I dont know if you are greatful for that assistance or not, but i highly doubt any other nation in the vicinity would have helped you fight him. Now, if only the Muslim world could do away with OBL, Hammas, AQ, JI....the way we took care of Hitler and Milocevich, who by the way, were against Jews and Muslims respectively, the way AQ, JI, Hammas, etc...are against non-muslims.

Im glad you have seen 'the truth'. because, when a nation sends it's troops and resources in aid, when they have no reason or obligation to, the least that can be expected i gratitude, not complaining about the efficiency and speed of their rescue. Imagine a surfer pulling a drowning person out of the surf.....now imagine the person who was rescued yelling at the surfer asking him why he didnt get there quicker. Make sence ? thought so.

Where most peoples have abandoned geographic conquest, muslim still seem to be stuck in mideval times trying to control as much territory as possible, and whats worse....the muslim world by large supports that mentality.

Cheers
PS>> im not going to respond to anymore in the PL. discussion is one thing. comparing Muslims in the year 2005 to Christians in 1700 is rediculious, and dosent offer an excuse of justification for sort of that behaviour. We(all) stopped Milocevich and Hitler and we will stop any other threat posed on our soil, including JI, AQ, Hammas, etc....with or without help from the muslim world.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

...comparing Muslims in the year 2005 to Christians in 1700 is rediculious, and dosent offer an excuse of justification for sort of that behaviour.
...Where most peoples have abandoned geographic conquest, muslim still seem to be stuck in mideval times trying to control as much territory as possible, and whats worse....the muslim world by large supports that mentality.

Hit an run, I guess, is your way. The fact of the matter is that I still get those Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, trying to sell me their 'way'. When was the last time a group of Muslims knocked on your door, trying to sell you Islam? In light of that, let me re-f-raze what you said: your statements are ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

...Bosnia........ the muslim community seems to support geographic conquest the way Chrstians did centuries ago.

Now you really shine with ignorance right here. If you had any idea, you would have known that the aggression on Bosnia was a war of conquest for the 'greater serbia', conducted by yours truly, the orthodox christians, i.e. serbs. The Bosniak Muslims and Catholics fought for their survival.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

...if only the Muslim world could do away with OBL, Hammas, AQ, JI....

Totally agree with you on that one.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Im glad you have seen 'the truth'. because, when a nation sends it's troops and resources in aid, when they have no reason or obligation to, the least that can be expected i gratitude, not complaining about the efficiency and speed of their rescue.

I don't know what to say to this one, except that after 3 years of butchery, it was time for the world community to do something about it, don't you think? Furthermore, the weapons embargo that was placed on the Bosnian government did more damage then good. Do you realize that the serbs had the entire arsenal of weaponry from the former Yugoslav army under their control? To put this into perspective, the Bosnian army were the American Natives with bows and arrows whilst the serbs were the white colonizers, with fire arms and canons.

Or better yet, your surfer analogy:
Imagine a surfer standing next a drowning person out at the surf. He could help him by throwing him the rope, but is not sure if he should do that. So, he goes to his colleges and discusses the pros and cons of it. Meanwhile, the drowning person is really drowning, and the rescuers still deliberate why they should help. In the meanwhile, the people at the shore keep yelling to help him, but no-one is doing anything about it. Now, the rescuers send out a boat to be on hand if they decide to help the drowning person. So, the victim takes matters into his own hands and somehow makes it to the shore. During the last few steps, the rescuers turn around and see the drowning person exiting the ocean. Feeling embarrassed and somewhat guilty for having dragged their feet on helping the victim, they rush over and help him the last few steps out of the water, to which the victim is grateful. Now, the rescuers vow that an accident like that will never happen again: and then Srebrenica happens.

Again, sorry for hijacking the thread.