[freudling]

I just came across a blog about some comments by Harvard's president regarding women not being so great at math and science. He also stated that - from the source I read - women are not as apt at succeeding at such positions because child rearing takes them away from the long hours needed to invest in such an endevour.

While I don't believe fully in what he is saying, there is some research suggesting that women do more poorly on math components of intelligence tests than males. This is of course not generalizable as I have stated it, but enough to intice further investigation and make a few preliminary comments.

Apparently a Biologist one Dr. Hopkins left the conference room while the Harvard President was relaying said comments. Is that rational? Why leave? Talk it out like a scientist is supposed to do. There IS research suggesting that women do not do as well at math when compared to males. Why didn's she address that? Knee jerk reaction.

Here are some claims. Men are physically stronger, significantly so, than women. Men are better leaders. Men are bigger sluts...

On and on. Feminists came out, you got your equality, but we are still different. So what if we are better at math. Get over it.

[freudling]

I still hate them.

[Love Calm Quiet]

If it's any consolation, the feeling is probably reciprocated.

A shame that lots of heat and little light gets produced by rabid exchanges... even purportedly bright, educated individuals.

[JoshuaZ]

Or you could read this.

http://nationalreview.com/kob/obeirne200512060815.asp

[Cubeoid]

Feminists should be raped on prime time tv.

[Cubeoid]

"I'll get you database! I'll get you if it's the last thing I dooooooooo!!!"

[Kevin]

Lets start with Cubeoid first!@

[JoshuaZ]

Wow, Cube, thats the worst thing by far I've ever heard you say.

[Kevin]

It's just Pube's way of trying to be sarcastically funny.

[Spliffdaddy]

Why is it a bad thing to be a male chauvinist?

And perfectly acceptable to be a feminist?

A feminist is nothing but female chauvinist.

[Moderator]

what a waste of hate.....why don't you find a more important battle to fight....like iraq for instance. Why don't you go to Iraq and help your government out. Recruiting is down...your country needs you. Go.

[Millennium]

One of my wife's students' parents called her up the other day, because the student was having discipline problems. Things started out roughly as follows:

Parent: I think you're all just being hard on my daughter because she's a girl. This happened all the time, and I know these things, because I went to a women's college, and I studied exactly this sort of thing, and blah blah blah, etc. etc. etc...
Teacher: Oh; you went to a women's college? Which one, may I ask?
Parent: Bryn Mawr, Class of 1977, and...
Teacher: Oh, really? Bryn Mawr, Class of 2002.
[long silence]
Parent: Um... oh. So, so I guess this isn't that, then.
Teacher: Nope.

I swear, there needs to be a site like Acts of Gord for teachers.

[Doofy]

Hmmm... ...feminist eh? Guys and gals are equal in every way huh? Right. Take your shirt off and go (wo)man that jackhammer like a bloke would.

[rasmusnet]

I Hate Feminists...

I like feminists if they're hot.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by rasmusnet

I like feminists if they're hot.

It'd be easier finding a mermaid riding a unicorn.
They're feminists for a reason.

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Why is it a bad thing to be a male chauvinist?

And perfectly acceptable to be a feminist?

A feminist is nothing but female chauvinist.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[freudling]

Moderator:

You would take your comments back if you knew what I did for a living.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by rasmusnet

I like feminists if they're hot.

Does that exist ?

-t

[rasmusnet]

Does that exist ?

In Scandinavia? Yes Sir!

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by rasmusnet

In Scandinavia? Yes Sir!

Come on now, you know better.

PICS, ASAP !

-t

[Hawkeye_a]

If men and women were exactly the same we'd all be homosexuals or capable of reproducing on our own. lol.....

Anyway, on the matter relating to the original post. i totally agree with you. Personally, i dont see what the problem is with acknoledging the differences and appreciating the differences in the sexes. For example.....i see far too many women wearing trousers and pants these days. I for one find myself attracted to women in skirts, cause it just seems more feminine to me. I dont want to involved with women who try to be as manly as they can by wearing pants and trying to "level" with me by drinking me under the table.

Acknoledge the differences, respect the differences, appreciate each other because of them, and dont actively strive to be more like someone/thing else (women trying to be more like men in the corporate world by wearing pants, and trying to fit the male image of man in a high position, etc).

So what if men are better at math at this point in time of our existence ? whos to say that wont chance 100 years down the track ? that doesnt mean that women will be forever doomed for not being able to perform everyday math. Besides women have things that they are better at than men. but you dont see "male-ists" trying to be more like women because of it. (well most men anyway).

Either way, i appreciate women he way they are and i just find myself indifferent to those who try to act as though we(male and females) are all the same. to each his own in the end, but i for one find myself appreciating more feminine women, and i reckon thats a good thing from the female perspective as well.

Cheers

[SirCastor]

The reason I (generally) don't like Feminists is because I am the bad guy, not because of how I acted, or what I did, but because I have a Y chromosome instead or two x's. I appreciate a woman's position, and if she desires to work and move ahead, go for it. What I'm sick of is if a feminist goes to accomplish something and it doesn't work out, it's because men strongarmed it, or shut it down. It's never remotely related to that person (male or female) and how they performed.

[ghporter]

When the word was coined and adopted by large numbers of women, "feminist" meant a person who was interested in equality under the law for both sexes. That works for me. Unfortunately, like "Christianity," feminism has morphed into something else. I, as a male, am personally responsible for everything bad that has ever happened to a feminist. If I hold the door open for her (perhaps I note that her hands are full), then I'm being condescending-nevermind that I hold the door open for anyone who I see approaching with their hands full or even just moderately distracted or - gasp! - because I'm trying to be nice. I get paid more than any given feminist - ignoring of course the fact that right now I am unemployed. I have more educational opportunities than any feminist - but why am I so outnumbered by women at school? I have better occupational and professional options than feminists - but nursing, one profession I was very interested in, turned out to be anti-male, though so called feminists don't admit that men are discriminated against (excluding male nurses from most labor and delivery units is just simple common sense, even though male OBs, lab techs, and probably houskeepers wander through and check mom's dilation on a regular basis...).

I used to BE a feminist. I think any woman who is crazy enough want all the crap that I put up with should get it. Including having people who don't know her accuse her of being prejudiced against them. Go for it!

I should also point out that my mother was a very positive, very strong woman who had a professional, non-medical job almost 40 years ago. I was brought up to be a PERSON who regarded OTHER PEOPLE as other people, not objects. But there's apparently nothing personal in regarding EVERY male as an oppressor, eh?

Rant over. Nothing more to see here.

[Dark Helmet]

Relax, everyone hates feminists... except women and other feminists.

[Tomchu]

Feminists pretend like they're all for equality, but in reality they're all for promoting women anywhere and everywhere while slamming men and equating them to drooling village idiots.

It's pathetic.

There are so many double-standards at play that it really gets on my nerves. For instance, past culture dictates that men hold/open doors for women. Past culture also dictates that women were generally at home with the kids/in the kitchen, while the man provided the money.

Feminists aren't so much about equality as they are for being selective about what they want today's culture to be. They don't want the stereotype of kids/kitchen to apply to women, because that means they aren't perceived equally to men. HOWEVER ... they don't mind throwing out the practice of men assisting women with doors. It's all good if they're still treated like queens, but when it comes to other things it's all about "EQUALITY FOR WOMEN, EQUALITY FOR WOMEN!"

What the hell is that all about? If you want to be equal, you've got it -- you're equal. If you're not, then STFU and quit your bitching.

I was walking down some street in downtown Vancouver, heading towards a store, when I could hear the incessant bitching of two feminist c***s behind me. They were yapping away about how some father at their kids' school was checking them out or some other equally-unimportant crap. I got to the store, opened the door, walked in.

They went ****ing ballistic on me, telling me that a gentlemen would have held the door open for them. I wasn't about to take it. I told those bitches: "If you want to be so ****ing equal all the time, pretending like you're just as physically and mentally capable as men in every case, you can open YOUR OWN GODDAMNED DOORS. If you want equality, you've got it."

That shut them up, but they had the most furious looks on their faces. God I wish I had a camera.

Yeah, I hate feminists and their double-standards.

[Tomchu]

Feminists pretend like they're all for equality, but in reality they're all for promoting women anywhere and everywhere while slamming men and equating them to drooling village idiots.

It's pathetic.

There are so many double-standards at play that it really gets on my nerves. For instance, past culture dictates that men hold/open doors for women. Past culture also dictates that women were generally at home with the kids/in the kitchen, while the man provided the money.

Feminists aren't so much about equality as they are for being selective about what they want today's culture to be. They don't want the stereotype of kids/kitchen to apply to women, because that means they aren't perceived equally to men. HOWEVER ... they don't mind throwing out the practice of men assisting women with doors. It's all good if they're still treated like queens, but when it comes to other things it's all about "EQUALITY FOR WOMEN, EQUALITY FOR WOMEN!"

What the hell is that all about? If you want to be equal, you've got it -- you're equal. If you're not, then STFU and quit your bitching.

I was walking down some street in downtown Vancouver, heading towards a store, when I could hear the incessant bitching of two feminist c***s behind me. They were yapping away about how some father at their kids' school was checking them out or some other equally-unimportant crap. I got to the store, opened the door, walked in.

They went ****ing ballistic on me, telling me that a gentlemen would have held the door open for them. I wasn't about to take it. I told those bitches: "If you want to be so ****ing equal all the time, pretending like you're just as physically and mentally capable as men in every case, you can open YOUR OWN GODDAMNED DOORS. If you want equality, you've got it."

That shut them up, but they had the most furious looks on their faces. God I wish I had a camera.

Yeah, I hate feminists and their double-standards.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Relax, everyone hates feminists... except women and other feminists.

My wife is a woman and she doesn't think any more of feminists than I do. The thing is that feminism has become a very extreme set of beliefs, not a set of ideals. Feminists don't seem to want equality anymore. They want power, instead. Funny, but women HAVE a lot of power, as a voting bloc, and as a market sector. There's a body of evidence that, given a completely flat, blind evaluation, women in exactly the same jobs as men are paid at least as well as men-but that such jobs are still less available than they should be (or maybe that too few jobs are set up to be gender neutral).

I spent over 23 years in a job wherein the only thing that was supposed to be evaluated about a person was that person's training, ability, and performance, and that included ignoring both race and sex. It worked pretty darn well, considering the fact that my job was being a member of the Air Force... So I have to say I have little sympathy for anyone who asserts that "men control everything just to keep women down." In my experience it's hogwash.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ghporter

So I have to say I have little sympathy for anyone who asserts that "men control everything just to keep women down." In my experience it's hogwash.

Yeah, you should have joined the Navy for that

-t

[suprz's ghost]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Why is it a bad thing to be a male chauvinist?

And perfectly acceptable to be a feminist?

A feminist is nothing but female chauvinist.

I absolutley agree with the above
plus....
why is it o.k. to have a million man march? what would happen if the million men were white?

why is it o.k. for a female teacher having sex with a minor to get off with out having to do any jail time? what would happen if it was a male teacher and a female student?

why is it more acceptable for a woman to hit a man, but if a man hits and woman he is labeled "violent, and abusive" and if the man says something about the abuse, he would probably be a "sissy"
oh i could go on all day

[Doofy]

Interesting side-effect of feminism and "equality" affecting the emergency services.

A few months back my old man put his back out - couldn't get up off the floor. So they sent for an ambulance. First ambulance to come was crewed by two women under 5'5", must have weighed no more than 200 lbs between them. They couldn't lift him (and he's not a big bloke either). So they had to send for another ambulance crewed by blokes who could actually do the job.

Makes one worry a little about who they're going to send to drag you out of your burning house, doesn't it?

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

If men and women were exactly the same we'd all be homosexuals or capable of reproducing on our own. lol.....

Anyway, on the matter relating to the original post. i totally agree with you. Personally, i dont see what the problem is with acknoledging the differences and appreciating the differences in the sexes. For example.....i see far too many women wearing trousers and pants these days. I for one find myself attracted to women in skirts, cause it just seems more feminine to me. I dont want to involved with women who try to be as manly as they can by wearing pants and trying to "level" with me by drinking me under the table.

Acknoledge the differences, respect the differences, appreciate each other because of them, and dont actively strive to be more like someone/thing else (women trying to be more like men in the corporate world by wearing pants, and trying to fit the male image of man in a high position, etc).

So what if men are better at math at this point in time of our existence ? whos to say that wont chance 100 years down the track ? that doesnt mean that women will be forever doomed for not being able to perform everyday math. Besides women have things that they are better at than men. but you dont see "male-ists" trying to be more like women because of it. (well most men anyway).

Either way, i appreciate women he way they are and i just find myself indifferent to those who try to act as though we(male and females) are all the same. to each his own in the end, but i for one find myself appreciating more feminine women, and i reckon thats a good thing from the female perspective as well.

Cheers

There's a show that was on ... I think it was TLC or the Discovery Channel. Battle of the Sexes. Men indeed were better at GEOMETRY and figuring out directions, having a 'sense' to know which way home is. Women are indeed better at ALGEBRA and extreme multi-tasking. They gave a big group of men and women a list of tasks to complete in under 5 minutes, single handedly. Almost all the women passed. Almost none of the men did.

- Rob

[SuvsareRetarded]

My wife is quasi feminist, but not in a bad way. She doesn't feel that she's oppressed, but she does feel that women suffer from self esteem issues because of the way we're taught as kids. We always learn about all this important stuff that males accomplished, and granted, it's probably more than what females accomplished because back society wanted women to be pretty things that took care of kids.... HOWEVER, there WERE a lot of women who did break the mold and achieve great accomplishments, but we aren't taught about them in school. I agree. But yeah... men/women are different. They are not the same. They should not be treated the same, but they should be treated as equals.

As for holding the door open, I hold the door for everyone. Problem solved.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Yeah, you should have joined the Navy for that

-t

Yeah, the Navy has always had an odd idea about who to listen to-their "guts" or the rules, like from Congress and the Commander in Chief. And if you look at the people who did the most wrong in the Tailhook incident, you find that the Navy is being led by idiots who abuse the people whose job it is to pull their pilot asses out of the drink when they ditch. The most notably abused Navy members there were indeed female rescue helicopter pilots... Real rocket science going on there.

The Air Force was indeed the first service to do a number of equality-related things, such as eliminating the subjectivity in enlisted promotions (at least up to E-7), and more recently eliminating the requirement for an official photo in an officer's promotion file. Photo? Yep! It was supposed to be used to determine the officer's "bearing," but it was often found that the person's skin color and/or gender found its way into the picture too.

[wdlove]

I don't hate feminists. The problem is the their organization very left wing.

[saint_theodora]

Originally Posted by Millennium

One of my wife's students' parents called her up the other day, because the student was having discipline problems. Things started out roughly as follows:

Parent: I think you're all just being hard on my daughter because she's a girl. This happened all the time, and I know these things, because I went to a women's college, and I studied exactly this sort of thing, and blah blah blah, etc. etc. etc...
Teacher: Oh; you went to a women's college? Which one, may I ask?
Parent: Bryn Mawr, Class of 1977, and...
Teacher: Oh, really? Bryn Mawr, Class of 2002.
[long silence]
Parent: Um... oh. So, so I guess this isn't that, then.
Teacher: Nope.

I swear, there needs to be a site like Acts of Gord for teachers.

This is PERFECT. I love the assumptions people make.

Bryn Mawr '05 here.

[olePigeon]

Actually, countless studies have showed that women are indeed smarter than men in general. Women also excel at multitasking and retaining general information. Men are better at retaining specific information, and doing one task really well (but others not so well.)

While a man can be really, really good at math but suck at writing a good English paper, a woman can be reasonable with math and also reasonable with English, art, literature, and mechanics all at the same time.

I guess it's the difference between a specialist and a handy(wo)man.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy

A few months back my old man put his back out - couldn't get up off the floor. So they sent for an ambulance. First ambulance to come was crewed by two women under 5'5", must have weighed no more than 200 lbs between them. They couldn't lift him (and he's not a big bloke either). So they had to send for another ambulance crewed by blokes who could actually do the job.

I don't think paramedics have a huge phyisical requirement. Certainly not benching 200 lbs.

Makes one worry a little about who they're going to send to drag you out of your burning house, doesn't it?

A fireman. They have a very high physical requirement. That may be why there are very few female firefighters.

I remember here in California some lady sued a local fire department because she claimed they were being too hard on her. She said the physical requirements were set to discriminate against women, which was total bullsh*t. They're set so that when my house is burning down, a firefighter in FULL GEAR can axe my flippin' door down and carry my fat ass out. There ARE female firefighters. Just because she can't (or won't) meet the requirements, it doesn't mean they need to set lower requirements for someone who can't do what the job requires.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I don't think paramedics have a huge phyisical requirement. Certainly not benching 200 lbs.

Benching 200 Lbs isn't a huge physical thing. Try 400 Lbs and then we're talking.
But benching weights (controlled, clinical) is a different thing than lifting a bloke who screams in pain when you don't do it properly.

We don't really have US-style paramedics here yet.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

A fireman. They have a very high physical requirement. That may be why there are very few female firefighters.

They're lowering the requirements over here, just like they did with the police force (since coppers aren't armed by default here, physical ability is a requirement to catch the perp).

Why are they lowering the requirements? Yep, that's right - to stop the feminists from nagging.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Tomchu

They went ****ing ballistic on me, telling me that a gentlemen would have held the door open for them. I wasn't about to take it. I told those bitches: "If you want to be so ****ing equal all the time, pretending like you're just as physically and mentally capable as men in every case, you can open YOUR OWN GODDAMNED DOORS. If you want equality, you've got it."

lmao! That was classic!

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter

The thing is that feminism has become a very extreme set of beliefs, not a set of ideals. Feminists don't seem to want equality anymore. They want power, instead.

That's a pretty hefty generalization, Last time I checked, feminism had no central authority capable of making such a declaration.

I'd say the movement is in fact going in the exact opposite direction of what you state, partially as a reaction to your complaint.

The old guard dies out. The new guard want's to wear thong underpants.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by subego

That's a pretty hefty generalization, Last time I checked, feminism had no central authority capable of making such a declaration.

I'd say the movement is in fact going in the exact opposite direction of what you state, partially as a reaction to your complaint.

The old guard dies out. The new guard want's to wear thong underpants.

Collectively a large number of people have decided that "real feminism" has to be at the extreme end of the spectrum. They discount credible people behaving credibly and focus on extremes in behavior that are no more representative of the population than they are themselves.

I agree that a lot of people are getting over the idea that men are at fault for everything, and I've even found that a lot of younger women are receptive to the idea that someone can open a door for them without taking it as an affront. Being a man does not guarantee being a gentleman, any more than being a woman guarantees being a lady. More of this "gentlemanly" and "ladylike" behavior is something that could help society in general, but the basic idea that it's a bad thing-and representative of repression and similar crap has really put the brakes on it.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Collectively a large number of people have decided that "real feminism" has to be at the extreme end of the spectrum. They discount credible people behaving credibly and focus on extremes in behavior that are no more representative of the population than they are themselves.

I agree that a lot of people are getting over the idea that men are at fault for everything, and I've even found that a lot of younger women are receptive to the idea that someone can open a door for them without taking it as an affront. Being a man does not guarantee being a gentleman, any more than being a woman guarantees being a lady. More of this "gentlemanly" and "ladylike" behavior is something that could help society in general, but the basic idea that it's a bad thing-and representative of repression and similar crap has really put the brakes on it.

We did/do the same thing with Islamic people in the states. Somebody does something bad, and the whole of the group take the heat for it.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Collectively a loud number of people have decided that "real feminism" has to be at the extreme end of the spectrum. They discount credible people behaving credibly and focus on extremes in behavior that are no more representative of the population than they are themselves.

Fixed.

Seems to me every large political movement suffers from having the loudest most extreme adherents being the ones most often heard despite their minority. Why would feminism be spared?

Likewise, in most large political movements, you have a pendulum effect going on. Over-radicalism is reacted to by under-radicalism, which is in turn reacted to by over-radicalism, etc.

The phase the feminist movement is undergoing right now has been dubbed the "Third Wave", which at its core, is about the variety of ways one can be and still be considered a feminist. I see this as a reaction to the issues you bring up, which were promulgated by the "Second Wave" of feminism.

Admittedly, my GFs getting her masters in Gender Studies, so I'm pretty up to the minute on this stuff.

[Edit: dammit, I couldn't have put in that apostrophe, it must have been someone else.]
[Edit 2: apostrophes, plural.]

[freudling]

Good comments.

The post about women being able to hit men and get away with it and men getting in, well, huge Shxx if they do is important. How many guys have had a girlfriend/wife/female stranger hit them? It has happened to me several times, as I used to work at Nightclubs. And this is it. You want to be equal? Well, get ready, because something is coming back! But so many "violent" women who spit on me, punched me in the face, pushed me, tried to fight me.... I am certain did not expect me to fight back, and in almost all cases I didn't. Sometimes a letter would arrive at the club a few days later stating that X Doorman hit me and that they are going to sue the club. My life has been threatened with guns from girls that you probably would see on a saturday with mom and dad shopping at the Gap. Do women really understand this equal thing?

Funny thing, any confrontation with a man never, ever resulted in a letter showing up at the club. It is perhaps psychology at work: these girls premediated their actions as they were, for instance, pissed off at a boyfriend and projected it onto me. So many cases where this "violent" behavior happened with little to no warning at all. Just a few years ago at a club with a friend, everything was great and then, my friend accidently bumped into a girl and she tried to punch him. I walked over, calmly as I always do, and asked her what was up. Next thing I know, my face is cut open and I am being helped out of the club, holding a towel against my bleeding face.

The interesting thing about societies perception of men and aggression is that, we are backed into a corner when it comes to our actions against women. The laws in Canada are literally absurd. I have someone close to me, very successful, who just had his life ruined for now. The cops showed up at his door and arrested him, releasing him on one condition: that he not drink in public. Why? All this, on the single pretense of one statement made by an ex-girlfriend whom he hadn't seen in a year. She cried rape, and he got charged. No evidence. She went to the cops 1 year later and he gets fired and a $20,000 bill from his Defence Lawyer, which he will never recoupe. The law favors women, since women are the "victims", too scared to go to the cops is the excuse, and we buy it as a blanket policy. No evidence needed, because this stuff happens to women all the time, since it usually happens when the couple is alone behind closed doors.... It is not right. And I know, for sure, that my friend did not touch her.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

Men, be men and celebrate your good traits. Women should do the same and stop being so afraid of being feminine. If women really, really want equality, tell the world now, so the next time you step up, you will get it right back.

As an aside:

I am having incredible difficulty working in an office with all women. A few are really good, but the rest are just poisining the environment. Moody. Moody. Moody. I much, much prefer working with males as it has been in my employment history. In MY experience, men shut their mouths and do their jobs. Women bitch constantly and create too many problems.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by freudling

The post about women being able to hit men and get away with it and men getting in, well, huge Shxx if they do is important. How many guys have had a girlfriend/wife/female stranger hit them? It has happened to me several times, as I used to work at Nightclubs. And this is it. You want to be equal? Well, get ready, because something is coming back!

This reminded me of an interesting conversation with a feminist a couple of years back.

Basically the argument was about women serving in the military for front-line duties. I was making the point that women aren't as hard as blokes, she was stating that there's no difference. Which got me thinking something along the lines of: since most blokes are gentlemen and wouldn't dream of hitting a woman, most women have no idea just how hard blokes hit each other when it's unrestricted combat.
I don't think a lot of them know what "equal" means when used in the manner in which they're trying to define it.

[freudling]

Doofy:

Tis true, men are capable of, well, "immense" strength, specially when provoked. I watched this cop show where a man was being chased by some cops, but he lost all but the woman who as on his tale. Through backyards, sidestreets, and the like, she finally gained on him. He then suddenly stopped, grabbed and, and tried to rape her. The only thing that stopped him was the plethora of other policemen who eventually located them and broke it up.

I am sorry, but I do see some humor when women "give it their all" whilst trying out to be a firefighter, in boot camp, etc. They have that look like they are trying to prove that they are as physically endowed as men. Not all, but most. Men just kinda yawn in physically demanding situations, whereas women just appear to be "try hards."

[driven]

This very well may be the first time in MacNN history that everyone has almost universally agreed on ANYTHING.

[driven]

Double post

[driven]

Triple post

[driven]

Grrr ... why do all my posts show up multiple times?