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If the police department fired them but the GJ failed to indict, the flaw in this instance, seems to be somewhere in the GJ. (Hint hint)
Indeed. The GJ process has inherent conflicts of interest when it comes to police misconduct. You have a local prosecutor who is entirely dependent upon the local police to convict defendants. And we are supposed to believe that the fox is really going to guard the chicken coop properly? This is the fundamental reason why GJ's nearly ALWAYS indicts civilians and almost NEVER indicts cops. Police misconduct cases should be handled by a special prosecutor by default IMO.
So, no matter the circumstances, every time there is a death when the police are involved, should the officer(s) involved automatcly be charged and brought to trial? That way "the fix" is avoided and justice is in the hands of a jury,not biased prosecuters or easily influenced grand juries.
So, no matter the circumstances, every time there is a death when the police are involved, should the officer(s) involved automatcly be charged and brought to trial? That way "the fix" is avoided and justice is in the hands of a jury,not biased prosecuters or easily influenced grand juries.
A more logical approach would be to separate the duty of the DA to investigate these circumstances to someone less involved.
Just last week, the state's House (by a 106 to 7 vote) and Senate (46 to 4) passed the measure. It seeks to get around an Illinois Supreme Court ruling earlier this year that struck down a previous law making it a crime to record police.
That is some bi-partisan legislation, right there.
There's another bonus for the police, as the small-town Jacksonville Journal-Courier pointed out in a Tuesday editorial:
This little nugget is also included in this legislation: With permission of a state’s attorney, not a judge, police could legally eavesdrop on individuals for up to 24 hours without a warrant while investigating such serious crimes as murder, sexual assault or kidnapping.
Interestingly, I feel we're making opposite arguments, but they reach the same conclusion.
Your claim is the system wasn't used properly. The GJ should have taken this to trial.
I'm claiming the system was used properly, but is thoroughly broken.
For over 10 years I've complained about how the system of police-civilian interaction is a hopeless failure. Cops legally get to treat people like they're animals. In any other circumstance, retaliation from the civilian would be considered self-defense from criminal assault. With a cop, not only is this not the case, it actually gives the cop freedom to act more violently.
This kind of feedback loop is known as a "death spiral".
Once the spiral gets to where the cop is in fear for their life, the leeway they get is extraordinary. You need merely appear to be a threat.
To a cop in fear for their life, the only difference between a fleeing suspect who turns and throws their arms up in surrender, and a fleeing suspect who turns and throws up their arms to attack, is what the suspect does afterwards.
We as a society have given the cop full discretion not to wait for the answer.
I want to be clear. I don't like the amount of power we've given cops, but if I'm a juror, I don't get to call it the way it should be, I have to call it the way it is.
22 year old John Crawford was shot on sight holding a toy rifle in Walmart while talking on a cell phone to his girlfriend. 12 year old Tamir Rice was shot on sight with a toy pistol in his waistband in a public park. The old, drunk, white guy with the LOADED ASSAULT RIFLE with no ID who refused to give his name, refused to put the gun down, grabbed his crotch, cursed, and flipped off the cops? 40 minutes later he finally complied when he got good and damned ready. Not even arrested. And got his gun back the next day. Did I mention all three of these incidents occurred in OPEN CARRY states?
Joseph Houseman
John Crawford
Tamir Rice
OAW
PS: And just so we are all clear. I'm not saying the officers did anything wrong with this guy. On the contrary, they handled the situation like they should have by talking the guy down and not being overly aggressive. If only the police had chosen to handle the situations with John Crawford and Tamir Rice similarly. I suspect it wouldn't have taken either of them 40 minutes to put their TOY weapons down and complied with the officer.
The problem with this "cigarette tax" theory is that it overlooks the fact that the tax has already been paid. A guy like Garner purchases a box of cigarettes at retail and pays the tax on it. Then resells the individual cigarettes on the street as "loosies" for more than what he paid for the box as a whole. People who can't afford and entire pack/box get what they want and he pockets the profits.
The problem with this "cigarette tax" theory is that it overlooks the fact that the tax has already been paid. A guy like Garner purchases a box of cigarettes at retail and pays the tax on it. Then resells the individual cigarettes on the street as "loosies" for more than what he paid for the box as a whole. People who can't afford and entire pack/box get what they want and he pockets the profits.
OAW
So Garner's widow is wrong? She herself said that was all he could do. The local cops called him "cigarette man"
I doubt he was buying cigarettes locally for resale. There would be no profit in that. He most likely had someone he was selling cigarettes for who bought them on one of the reservations or one of the lower tax states in the area. The mob has been doing it for years.
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Last edited by Chongo; Dec 10, 2014 at 04:17 PM.
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Stop. This is purposeful losing the forest for the trees. A cigarette tax didn't cause a cop to put a man into an banned headlock, and to continue to do so in the face of pleas that he could not breathe. This law could disappear overnight and the same situation could occur during an arrest for another type of violation. Repealing laws will not solve the underlying problem so lets stop pretending that this is what the death was about.
Stop. This is purposeful losing the forest for the trees. A cigarette tax didn't cause a cop to put a man into an banned headlock, and to continue to do so in the face of pleas that he could not breathe. This law could disappear overnight and the same situation could occur during an arrest for another type of violation. Repealing laws will not solve the underlying problem so lets stop pretending that this is what the death was about.
An order to crack down on the illegal sale of 75-cent cigarettes in Staten Island came directly from Police Headquarters, setting off a chain of events that ended in Eric Garner’s death, the Daily News has learned.
Chief of Department Philip Banks — the highest-ranking uniformed cop in the city — sent a sergeant from his office at 1 Police Plaza in July to investigate complaints of untaxed cigarettes being sold in the Tompkinsville neighborhood, a source close to the investigation told The News.
“(Banks) set the whole thing in motion,” the source said
But the 311 tip made its way to Banks’ office where “the untaxed cigarette problem on Bay St.” was discussed, a source said. A day after the 311 call was made, cops arrested Garner for selling cigarettes without proper tax stamps.
Cops found him in possession of 23 sealed packs of untaxed cigarettes and one open pack, officials said. He was arrested with untaxed cigarettes again on May 7, officials said.
Then, a week before his death, Garner was “warned and admonished” about selling untaxed cigarettes, a police source said.
Huh? That's like saying that someone can't buy a kilo of cocaine on the streets and make a profit by reselling it as individual packages.
OAW
He was selling untaxed cigarettes.
Cops found him in possession of 23 sealed packs of untaxed cigarettes and one open pack, officials said. He was arrested with untaxed cigarettes again on May 7, officials said.
Regardless of the details of surrounding Eric Garner's cigarette hustle ... Dakar is absolutely correct that it is neither here nor there ...
The medical examiner said compression of the neck and chest, along with Garner's positioning on the ground while being restrained by police during the July 17 stop on Staten Island, caused his death.
Garner's acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were contributing factors, the medical examiner determined.
I don't see "selling untaxed cigarettes" anywhere in that list. The bottom line is that Garner had been taken into custody dozens of times for a "crime" that is essentially a notch above a traffic ticket. He didn't die in any of those encounters because the cops didn't decide to choke him out over some BS.
As an aside, cigarettes are so expensive here, 9 times out of 10, if someone asks me for a cigarette they offer to pay me a buck for it.
This only started once the economy took a shit.
That was my earlier point. Even in NYC which has one of the highest cigarette taxes around you could pay approx. $14 for a pack and sell them individually for $1 a pop. That's a tidy little profit. Even higher if you buy them by the carton. Just saying ...
Regardless, it's NOT why Garner was killed. So whether he was hustling like that or selling untaxed cigarettes sourced from an Indian Reservation is irrelevant.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
That was my earlier point. Even in NYC which has one of the highest cigarette taxes around you could pay approx. $14 for a pack and sell them individually for $1 a pop. That's a tidy little profit. Even higher if you buy them by the carton. Just saying ...
Regardless, it's NOT why Garner was killed. So whether he was hustling like that or selling untaxed cigarettes sourced from an Indian Reservation is irrelevant.
OAW
He was killed because he was black? Why was Garner being arrested?
The had more careless disregard for his safety and were more fearful of him because he was black.
It could be he was bringing too much attention and was taken out on orders from one of the Five Families. You know the mob is still influences the NYPD.
It could be he was bringing too much attention and was taken out on orders from one of the Five Families. You know the mob is still influences the NYPD.
Of course he's wrong, but non-taxed cigs are a big cash cow for the mob in NYC (and Chicago, and LA, and Boston, etc.).
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
There is no but! This thread keeps getting engulfed in derails, red herrings, and devaluation of human life. What he mentioned was literally worthless to the discussion at hand; He threw as many things at the wall as he could and when I thwart every one of them he posts tripe because the actual reasons do not interest him and counter-facts elude him.
it isn't worthless, cops down here don't want to arrest and harass people for having pot, at least not simple possession, but there's incredible pressure on them to make busts, often linked with ultimatums. "You'll get your numbers up or you're out of a job." I've not seen it as much in my county, but some city cops are really run through the ringer. This compounds the stress they're already under, making an already dangerous job even worse. Why? Kickbacks from private prisons and state politicians.
NYC, by itself, has a tax of $1.50 /pack on cigs, while the state has $4.35, and when smugglers circumvent those taxes all the politicians see is lost revenue. Look at how many were murdered by soldiers during the Whisky Rebellion, I have relatives much more recently who were drug out of their homes and shot like animals for making moonshine, all over unpaid taxes. It isn't about racism, not really, it's about money. Going into politics is a guaranteed way of lining your pockets, it's even more lucrative than selling God..
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Brockman attempted to stop Samantha Ramsey as she left the party in her vehicle, but instead she made a left turn and ran over his foot, causing injuries later diagnosed as bruises.
In his account of the police shooting after the incident in the early morning hours of April 26, Brockman — who oddly referred to himself in the third person throughout the statement — said that he jumped onto the hood of Ramsey’s slow-moving vehicle because he believed she was about to kill him by running him down with the car.
“We didn’t know the police was talking to us,” Turner recalled. “I just saw him jump on the hood and start shooting.”
A witness who saw the events unfold from across the street, Josh Pitts, said that he couldn’t tell why the deputy jumped on Ramsey’s car.
“As she was trying to make a turn and leave the party, he jumped on the car and pulled his gun out and shot four times through the window and hit the girl,” Pitts recounted.
Now, no one has sympathy for drunk drivers. But was the recourse equitable to the crime in progress? Was Samantha living the thug life? Ergo, if you don't want to get shot, don't drink and drive.
You're conflating two different problems. There's some overlap, but very little. After all, if you goal is to put people in jail, killing them would undermine that goal. Quoting myself:
A cigarette tax didn't cause a cop to put a man into an banned headlock, and to continue to do so in the face of pleas that he could not breathe. This law could disappear overnight and the same situation could occur during an arrest for another type of violation. Repealing laws will not solve the underlying problem so lets stop pretending that this is what the death was about.
If you'd like to start a thread about how the justice system has been rigged by politicians and private entities, I'd be interested in participating.
I'm telling you, cops are wound too tightly and this shit's only going to get worse.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
I'm telling you, cops are wound too tightly and this shit's only going to get worse.
I am completely sympathetic to officers feeling anxious given some jobs they have to carry out; I'd certainly be crapping myself in certain situations. But it's appallingly obvious our standards just aren't high enough for those whom we choose to serve and protect us. Nor our discipline for those that fail to meet our expectations.
Nowadays people get fired for saying less on facebook that these guy act out on the streets. It's kind of absurd.
Perhaps the discipline problem has more to do with those who are breaking laws? When protesters change from being protesters to rioting mobs, the way you treat them should change to using much more aggression back at them. After all, the police also have to protect property.
That was my earlier point. Even in NYC which has one of the highest cigarette taxes around you could pay approx. $14 for a pack and sell them individually for $1 a pop. That's a tidy little profit. Even higher if you buy them by the carton. Just saying ...
Regardless, it's NOT why Garner was killed. So whether he was hustling like that or selling untaxed cigarettes sourced from an Indian Reservation is irrelevant.
OAW
He was killed because he was black? Why was Garner being arrested?
Ummmm .... actually the "earlier point" I was referring to was related to this particular exchange ....
Originally Posted by OAW
The problem with this "cigarette tax" theory is that it overlooks the fact that the tax has already been paid. A guy like Garner purchases a box of cigarettes at retail and pays the tax on it. Then resells the individual cigarettes on the street as "loosies" for more than what he paid for the box as a whole. People who can't afford and entire pack/box get what they want and he pockets the profits.
OAW
Originally Posted by Chongo
So Garner's widow is wrong? She herself said that was all he could do. The local cops called him "cigarette man"
I doubt he was buying cigarettes locally for resale. There would be no profit in that. He most likely had someone he was selling cigarettes for who bought them on one of the reservations or one of the lower tax states in the area. The mob has been doing it for years.
Originally Posted by OAW
Huh? That's like saying that someone can't buy a kilo of cocaine on the streets and make a profit by reselling it as individual packages.
OAW
IOW ... there is money to be made by repacking cartons of TAXED cigarettes and reselling them as "loosies". Is it as much money as doing the same thing as UNTAXED cigarettes? Clearly not. But there is still money to be made. In any event, as has already been stated ... Eric Garner was killed by "compression of the neck and chest". All of this other discussion about tax rates on cigarettes in NYC is incidental at best.
I am completely sympathetic to officers feeling anxious given some jobs they have to carry out; I'd certainly be crapping myself in certain situations. But it's appallingly obvious our standards just aren't high enough for those whom we choose to serve and protect us. Nor our discipline for those that fail to meet our expectations.
Nowadays people get fired for saying less on facebook that these guy act out on the streets. It's kind of absurd.
You think people are just lining up to fill positions? Being a cop in an urban area is a dangerous, stressful, thankless, low paying job that few sane people want to do. If you kicked out all the assholes, bullies, and adrenaline junkies, police stations in major cities would be virtually empty with no one to take their place. Point blank, if major cities had much higher standards, they wouldn't have cops.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
You think people are just lining up to fill positions?
I think it depends where. I think you'd agree.
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants
Being a cop in an urban area is a dangerous, stressful, thankless, low paying job that few sane people want to do. If you kicked out all the assholes, bullies, and adrenaline junkies, police stations in major cities would be virtually empty with no one to take their place. Point blank, if major cities had much higher standards, they wouldn't have cops.
Right, so at least we could start punishing them when they misbehave as a start.
Now, no one has sympathy for drunk drivers. But was the recourse equitable to the crime in progress? Was Samantha living the thug life? Ergo, if you don't want to get shot, don't drink and drive.
A cop that dives onto the hood of a car and unloads into the driver through the windshield? And then claims that he "feared for his life"? Sounds eerily familiar to the infamous "Jack and the Box" case here in STL where Bob McCulloch failed to indict those two officers. And then was busted lying to the public about the nature of the grand jury testimony.
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