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Studs in the winter? (Page 2)
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P
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Oct 6, 2016, 06:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Slam the brakes!?! That's a sure way of losing all the traction you've left. Learnt that the hard way my first winter driving.
ABS is a wonderful thing. On a modern car, you should slam the brakes and let the automatic system figure out how much traction you have. It is better at it, because it is so much quicker on the uptake than you are. Which I know because...

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I don't I get your argument here: in any car you have to use throttle, brake and steering to recover from a dangerous situation. How you do that best, depends on the type of drive train, but no matter the drive train, I think most of us won't be able to, because it isn't something that is taught at driving schools. (Perhaps in nordic countries it is, but at least it isn't in the US and Germany.)
Sweden has mandatory training for handling cars in slippery conditions. You spend one day on a special track (basically a plastic road that is sprayed with water to make it slippery) learning to control your car in a few common situations. At the end of the day, there is a test you need to pass to get your license. It is the kind of test that everyone passes if they have paid any attention to the training, but it is there to make sure that nobody goofs off.

If you are trying to slow down in a car that has ABS, the right answer IS to slam the brakes and try to steer with what you have. That said, trying to do so at decent speed with summer tires will fail spectacularly. Lesson one of that course is that you simply cannot brake as fast in poor road conditions. One of the tests - regular straight line braking that you normally need to pass at 50 km/h and should ideally be passed at 62 km/h - was easy enough for me that they told me to attempt it at 70 km/h (normal speed outside cities). This was absolutely impossible. Those last 8 km/h made a huge difference in braking distance.
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Oct 6, 2016, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
If you're arguing that the difference between FWD and AWD is small enough on good roads to make the weight of the AWD system unnecessary, then sure, I can agree with that. You don't need AWD in the way that car ads make it seem sometimes. That doesn't mean that AWD doesn't have advantages when your grip is poor.
This is the third or fourth time I've said it:

AWD's only advantage is during aggressive straight-line acceleration in low-traction conditions. It does not help you turn. It does not help you stop. It does not help you recover when you're out of control. It does not help you under normal driving circumstances, even in low traction situations.
     
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Oct 7, 2016, 08:26 AM
 
Glad to know that my FWD will be just fine in the snow (well not fine but about the best that I'll get). I mean it has a rather small engine so the AWD/FWD discrepancy doesn't matter much.

Although when I used to have my 4x4 RWD by default, no traction control, I had a lever to switch from RWD to 4WD Hi to get me in and out of icy slick parking spots, either polished flat ice under the wheels, or 4 inches of slush in the lot. In RWD, the tires would just spin and the car would slip around and get stuck. Only stubbornness and luck or switching to 4WD would get me out. I also had all-season tires from 2003 back then.

My concern with winter travel is unsuspecting black ice. I'm not convinced that studs help much more than traction control and high-quality non-studded tires.
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Oct 7, 2016, 08:36 AM
 
4wd ≠ awd
     
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Oct 7, 2016, 09:38 AM
 
I know that. I was specifically referring to 4WD not AWD.
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Oct 7, 2016, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
AWD's only advantage is during aggressive straight-line acceleration in low-traction conditions. It does not help you turn.
But many modern AWDs do help you turn by using torque vectoring for all four wheels. It's not a panacea (e. g. FWD + winter tires >> AWD + all season/summer tires), and there are disadvantages (e. g. weight and, depending AWD and vehicle type, different handling characteristics). Audi's Gen 5 Quattro with sport differential and Gen 6 Quattro system can use torque vectoring, for instance.
Originally Posted by P View Post
Sweden has mandatory training for handling cars in slippery conditions. You spend one day on a special track (basically a plastic road that is sprayed with water to make it slippery) learning to control your car in a few common situations. At the end of the day, there is a test you need to pass to get your license. It is the kind of test that everyone passes if they have paid any attention to the training, but it is there to make sure that nobody goofs off.
That sounds like a great thing, I wish it were mandatory in Germany, too.
Originally Posted by P View Post
If you are trying to slow down in a car that has ABS, the right answer IS to slam the brakes and try to steer with what you have. That said, trying to do so at decent speed with summer tires will fail spectacularly. Lesson one of that course is that you simply cannot brake as fast in poor road conditions.
I spent the majority of my driving life in Southern Germany where people do change tires, and we'd regularly see people on summer tires (of from the Netherlands) blocking small mountain roads when I'd go skiing. (People would really say that they are driving like “Dutch people”.) And, showing my age here, I was indeed taught before all cars on the road had ABS, so perhaps I need to update my muscle memory here.
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Oct 7, 2016, 10:39 AM
 
I was old enough to be taught how to pump the brake, but never really got a chance to drive a car without ABS.

Layman question... what's wrong with all-weather tires?
     
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Oct 7, 2016, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Layman question... what's wrong with all-weather tires?
Tread pattern and the rubber compound are completely different. For instance, the rubber compound in summer tires and all weather tires is much harder, and will provide significantly less traction. Similarly, the distinctive tread pattern on winter tires with its characteristic wave-like teeth provide grip on icy and snowy surfaces. Proper tires make a much bigger difference than AWD (vs. FWD).
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Oct 7, 2016, 10:49 AM
 
Mostly they're a compromise. All weather tires are harder, which is needed to be safe at high speeds at high temperatures, but which means that they become too stiff in the cold. All-weather also don't have tire features to clear themselves of packed snow, so eventually you might have literal snow tires. Snow on snow was never a recipe for grip.
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Oct 7, 2016, 11:24 AM
 
Gotcha!

Not needing to bother may be an advantage to city life. Arteries get plowed except in extraordinary circumstances, which presumably help peel the snow off and warm up the tires a notch.

This reminds me... I need to deal with rustproofing, like, now.
     
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Oct 7, 2016, 10:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Gotcha!

Not needing to bother may be an advantage to city life. Arteries get plowed except in extraordinary circumstances, which presumably help peel the snow off and warm up the tires a notch.
Now this is just false and careless. Snow tires would absolutely be a significant advantage, particularly when it's most important: stopping. You're in a cold city that gets a good bit of snow - you should have them, period.

To Lam's point, I have to add: hills and snow. Isn't he in flat country? AWD is boss in hilly country when winter hits. I've plowed up 25-degree roads in 12 inches of snow like a champ. So exhilarating!
     
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Oct 7, 2016, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Now this is just false and careless. Snow tires would absolutely be a significant advantage, particularly when it's most important: stopping. You're in a cold city that gets a good bit of snow - you should have them, period.
Yet in driving through over 26 winters, very little of it actually involved being in snow.

It would be really sad if our broke-ass infrastructure somehow manages a better job with plowing than they do in frigging Canukistan.
     
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Oct 9, 2016, 08:09 PM
 
But it's not only about actual snow. It's about temperature. My understanding is that at anything under 7 degrees C - what's that, 44 degrees? - the winterized rubber compound grips and stops significantly better on pavement. For the sake of a couple hundred bucks, that safety advantage seems pretty reasonable to me.
     
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Oct 9, 2016, 10:43 PM
 
This?

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Oct 10, 2016, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
But it's not only about actual snow. It's about temperature. My understanding is that at anything under 7 degrees C - what's that, 44 degrees? - the winterized rubber compound grips and stops significantly better on pavement. For the sake of a couple hundred bucks, that safety advantage seems pretty reasonable to me.
Mea culpa, I was focusing on the snow aspect.

I still probably won't do it though. It's not a money issue, it's a pain in my ass issue.
     
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Oct 10, 2016, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Mostly they're a compromise. All weather tires are harder, which is needed to be safe at high speeds at high temperatures, but which means that they become too stiff in the cold.
The all seasons on my Edge are good for 60,000 miles, the Blizzaks can probably go for 20,000 at best.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
But many modern AWDs do help you turn by using torque vectoring for all four wheels.
Ugh, Engineering Explained.

Everything I'm reading says it torque vectors front to rear then applies the brakes to shift power side to side. That's a reactive system, and properly set up can be useful for sporty driving. I'm still holding that AWD means either oversteer or more understeer in typical adverse conditions.

Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
I've plowed up 25-degree roads in 12 inches of snow like a champ.
25% grade, right? A 25 degree slope would be a 46% grade, which is steeper than the Guinness world record's steepest hill. I'll hold nothing against people that live in poorly maintained areas where forward tractive force is actually limited by snow touching bodywork.



Though I've plowed plenty of streets and onramps with my low cars with just Blizzaks.



     
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Oct 10, 2016, 08:16 PM
 
Yep, 25 grade. AWD is really awesome in any kind of true snow. But have you driven in those above conditions with a good AWD vehicle? If you're plowing 6 inches of snow then there's no way an Subaru wouldn't absolutely slay whatever you were driving.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 08:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Yep, 25 grade. AWD is really awesome in any kind of true snow. But have you driven in those above conditions with a good AWD vehicle? If you're plowing 6 inches of snow then there's no way an Subaru wouldn't absolutely slay whatever you were driving.
Yeah, I got to tear around in friend's Legacy in some fresh snow. Oh, and a CTS4 on Blizzaks. Like I said - aggressive acceleration in low traction conditions. Accelerating normally and not plowing snow, FWD on Blizzaks does fine, no slipping at all. Sure AWD would be great on those 5 days a year when I'm somehow out before the plows and want to beat F-150s off the line. But it'd be a huge drag the other 360 days a year, pulling down my fuel economy and performance.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yet in driving through over 26 winters, very little of it actually involved being in snow.
Winter tires don't just provide more grip in snow, they also provide more grip on clean roads because the rubber compound is softer and optimized for colder temperatures. The difference is huge, especially for breaking.
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Oct 11, 2016, 09:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Everything I'm reading says it torque vectors front to rear then applies the brakes to shift power side to side. That's a reactive system, and properly set up can be useful for sporty driving.
Audi's own video does a nice job of explaining how the Sports Differential in the Gen 5 Quattro system works. There is no breaking involved to shift power from side-to-side, it is an active differential. You are right, though, that most AWD systems work in conjunction with the ESP to provide torque vectoring. I was wrong in my post when I claimed that Gen 6 used an active differential, that's only true for Audis with the sports differential.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I'm still holding that AWD means either oversteer or more understeer in typical adverse conditions.
Apart from your words, do you actually have any evidence that this is so? What types of AWD are prone to which behavior?
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Oct 11, 2016, 10:06 AM
 
*Braking.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Apart from your words, do you actually have any evidence that this is so? What types of AWD are prone to which behavior?
Go back to my RallyCross example. You'd think AWD would slay all in high performance low-traction conditions, but it doesn't. If it was a straight-up drag race in the mud, sure AWD would win. But as soon as you introduce corners, AWD's advantage falls to a tiny sliver. After all, you can't break the laws of physics.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
*Braking.
That's obvious and was never in dispute. But if you ignore the potential weight difference, AWD just gives you no advantage here.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Go back to my RallyCross example. You'd think AWD would slay all in high performance low-traction conditions, but it doesn't. If it was a straight-up drag race in the mud, sure AWD would win. But as soon as you introduce corners, AWD's advantage falls to a tiny sliver.
That's just anecdotal evidence without any reference to a particular type of AWD in conditions that have nothing to do with typical conditions on public roads. AWD rally and race cars are set up differently than AWD road cars as most drivers do not know how to handle oversteer. So I am not sure what implications this has for road cars. I would really like to understand your arguments better.
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Oct 11, 2016, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's obvious and was never in dispute. But if you ignore the potential weight difference, AWD just gives you no advantage here.
Sorry, I meant to correct your repeated use of "breaking."

That's just anecdotal evidence without any reference to a particular type of AWD in conditions that have nothing to do with typical conditions on public roads. AWD rally and race cars are set up differently than AWD road cars as most drivers do not know how to handle oversteer. So I am not sure what implications this has for road cars. I would really like to understand your arguments better.
Not rally cars, RallyCross cars. The stock class is literally factory-stock road cars, no "set up" involved. The Modified and Prepared classes allow modifications and setup, and some are fully rally-prepped.

Anecdotal evidence is "I drive up 25% grades with AWD." This is an opportunity for a large pool of skilled drivers to explore the limits of a chassis and drive type on a low traction surface at speeds under 60mph. Given a large pool of cars and drivers, put into a situation where most people believe AWD would have its greatest advantage (low traction, typical road speeds), AWD only has a tiny advantage. This is true for the factory stock cars and the fully modified cars.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 10:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Audi's own video does a nice job of explaining how the Sports Differential in the Gen 5 Quattro system works. There is no breaking involved to shift power from side-to-side, it is an active differential. You are right, though, that most AWD systems work in conjunction with the ESP to provide torque vectoring. I was wrong in my post when I claimed that Gen 6 used an active differential, that's only true for Audis with the sports differential.
That was a good video. And like you say, systems like this are a tiny minority of AWD implementions.

Here's my argument:

- Oversteer is an unacceptable and dangerous condition for a road car to be in, so anything that induces oversteer is a detriment to safe driving
- A car's rear wheels (as implemented in the majority of AWD cars) can only propel the vehicle in the direction the vehicle is pointing, not the direction the front wheels are pointing.
- This means that in a corner, AWD will either a) slip and induce oversteer or b) propel a car past the speed where the front tires can grip and induce understeer
- Once a car has begun to understeer, the only solution is to reduce steering lock and slow down. Adding power will only make it worse, so AWD has no advantage in understeer recovery.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Anecdotal evidence is "I drive up 25% grades with AWD."
Agreed, but to include full context, it's driving up steep grades where non-AWD vehicles could not go (specifically, FWD vehicles with winter tires, one studded). It's anecdotal, but in a good way to the current discussion.

Otherwise, I agree that there's much less benefit to AWD on flat terrain, even in winter conditions (unless in deep snow). Other than straight-line acceleration.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 03:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
- A car's rear wheels (as implemented in the majority of AWD cars) can only propel the vehicle in the direction the vehicle is pointing, not the direction the front wheels are pointing.
But this argument only works for the situation when you are on the verge of losing grip or you already have lost grip. It doesn't tell me whether this isn't (more than?) compensated for by the fact that with AWD there is less torque acting on each wheel, and therefore you are farther away from the critical torque at which you break static friction. On a FWD vehicle the front tires have to do almost everything, steering, accelerating and the majority of breaking.

To me that's the argument that you are not addressing to my satisfaction, namely that AWDs can have a larger range where an AWD vehicle is able to make a corner while a 2WD vehicle cannot because the forces acting on each wheel in an AWD vehicle as less than or equal to those in a FWD car. You seem to focus on the case of what happens when things go wrong, i. e. which drivetrain behaves more graciously if you are at or exceeding the limit.

Plus, why do you claim that torque vectoring using braking is less efficient here? Steering angle is one of the parameters which determines how the torque is split between left and right wheel.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
- This means that in a corner, AWD will either a) slip and induce oversteer or b) propel a car past the speed where the front tires can grip and induce understeer
Why can't modern AWD + helper systems balance this, this is just a calibration exercise?
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Oct 11, 2016, 03:56 PM
 
Unrelated to the AWD debate.

Let's say I were to drink the winter tire Kool Aid... people like the Blizzaks?

Does one generally get 4 more wheels, too?
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
But this argument only works for the situation when you are on the verge of losing grip or you already have lost grip. It doesn't tell me whether this isn't (more than?) compensated for by the fact that with AWD there is less torque acting on each wheel, and therefore you are farther away from the critical torque at which you break static friction. On a FWD vehicle the front tires have to do almost everything, steering, accelerating and the majority of breaking.
Because this is only at play when you're accelerating through a corner, which absolutely shouldn't be happening when it's slippery out.

To me that's the argument that you are not addressing to my satisfaction, namely that AWDs can have a larger range where an AWD vehicle is able to make a corner while a 2WD vehicle cannot because the forces acting on each wheel in an AWD vehicle as less than or equal to those in a FWD car. You seem to focus on the case of what happens when things go wrong, i. e. which drivetrain behaves more graciously if you are at or exceeding the limit.
Like I said - AWD can do nothing to increase your steady state cornering speed. The front wheels in a FWD car only have to do more if you're accelerating through a corner.

Plus, why do you claim that torque vectoring using braking is less efficient here? Steering angle is one of the parameters which determines how the torque is split between left and right wheel.

Why can't modern AWD + helper systems balance this, this is just a calibration exercise?
If the AWD system is applying braking force to one of the rear wheels to transfer torque mid-corner, then one of the following situations has occurred - either the wheel to be braked has slipped, meaning you're in an oversteer situation brought on by having AWD, or your steering angle doesn't line up with the yaw angle and it's braking the wheel to rotate the car, which means you're in an understeer situation.

If the AWD system is applying braking force to a wheel before any of the four wheels have broken traction, then that has no real advantage over stability control doing the same thing on a FWD car and is actually slowing the car down.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unrelated to the AWD debate.

Let's say I were to drink the winter tire Kool Aid... people like the Blizzaks?

Does one generally get 4 more wheels, too?
It generally costs $25/tire to mount and balance if you choose to use one set of wheels for both sets of tires. If you switch tires each season, that's $100 per season or $200/year to mount and balance. Basic winter wheels typically run $100-120 each new, or $400-480 for a set of four, so buying separate wheels pays for itself after 2-3 seasons. As long as you have a place to store them in the off-season, it's the way to go. Also, some places won't mount used tires.

I found a set of four steel wheels for the Edge for $60 (for all four!) and put a new set of the outgoing model Blizzaks on them for about $600. I found a set of wheels and snow tires off of a Focus ST for $350 on Craigslist that fit my Focus, and I got the (pictured above) set for the M3 on Craigslist for $400. In both of those cases, the guys I bought from had received the wheels/tires with the car and didn't need or want them.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Because this is only at play when you're accelerating through a corner, which absolutely shouldn't be happening when it's slippery out.
It is also at play when you are driving through a corner with steady gas (i. e. your speed doesn't change), for instance if you make a lane change or turn onto a highway. In that case all the factors I mentioned above should be relevant.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
If the AWD system is applying braking force to one of the rear wheels to transfer torque mid-corner, then one of the following situations has occurred - either the wheel to be braked has slipped, meaning you're in an oversteer situation brought on by having AWD, or your steering angle doesn't line up with the yaw angle and it's braking the wheel to rotate the car, which means you're in an understeer situation.

If the AWD system is applying braking force to a wheel before any of the four wheels have broken traction, then that has no real advantage over stability control doing the same thing on a FWD car and is actually slowing the car down.
No, it's not the same thing, because you are applying an additional force on the outer rear wheel that is applying an additional torque (compared to a FWD vehicle) and helps rotate the car.
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Oct 11, 2016, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, it's not the same thing, because you are applying an additional force on the outer rear wheel that is applying an additional torque (compared to a FWD vehicle) and helps rotate the car.
My position is that braking the inside wheel is more than enough to rotate the car, and that slowing down is always preferable to speeding up.
     
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Oct 11, 2016, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
My position is that braking the inside wheel is more than enough to rotate the car, and that slowing down is always preferable to speeding up.
Yeah, but physics tells you that you exert more torque to turn the car if the other wheel accelerates the outer rear tire. What you seem to be saying here is that you don't think there is an appreciable difference in performance — which, depending on your usage and climate, might be true.
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Oct 11, 2016, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unrelated to the AWD debate.
Really...

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Let's say I were to drink the winter tire Kool Aid... people like the Blizzaks?
From what I've heard. Blizzak is a highly-rated snow tire:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...sp?type=W&VT=C

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....l=Blizzak+WS80

Studless Ice & Snow
Bridgestone Blizzak WS80:
WET Hydroplaning Resistance 9.2
WET Traction 9.2
DRY Cornering Stability 8.3
DRY Traction 8.7
DRY Steering Response 8.3
WINTER/SNOW Light Snow Traction 9.7
WINTER/SNOW Deep Snow Traction 9.5
WINTER/SNOW Ice Traction 9.1
COMFORT Ride Quality 9.0
COMFORT Noise 8.3
COMFORT Treadwear 8.3

These are very high ratings. But that does not mean that the Blizzaks (or other winter tires) won't slip on snow, see video below.

To demonstrate with/without traction control:

Blizzaks, no traction control, hard acceleration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svqk_VkOVXI


I have Nokian R2. Even with those, my car's traction control kicks in anyway in slush/snow/ice, which suggests that even top-rated snow tires will lose some traction. Blizzaks same thing. See videos below:

Champiro IcePro winter tires: In this video, the blinking light on the dashboard means the tires are slipping and traction control has taken over. This is also exactly what happened to my Nokian R2s last winter in identical conditions.

The videos below are from someone else (no idea who...) FWD:

With traction control:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEtK-slCDDk

Without traction control:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdfOhzZ-Pco


compare to:

Nokian Hak R, if I recall, no traction control:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10gTH_FghGU

Nokian Hak R2, no traction control:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyynVpslru0


My point:
EVEN THE VERY BEST WINTER TIRES WILL SLIP, EVEN IN THE SNOW.
I claim that traction control provides an even more substantial advantage than studs will compared to a non-studded winter tire.


and again to support my claim:

Nokian 8 studded winter tires, on Volvo V50 (not sure if this is FWD or AWD, this is in Sweden)

With traction control, THE V50 IS IN CONTROL:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4NAI0b1et8

Without traction control, THE V50 SPUN OUT EVEN WITH MAXIMUM STUDS ON ICE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZHTAmxElSA


I think this thread strongly supports that even a little 2WD with decent traction control (thank God for top notch engineering and testing) and a high-quality, non-studded snow tire can get you through truly hellish winter conditions.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
Does one generally get 4 more wheels, too?
If you want (and have a place) to mount and balance yourself. Personally I'd rather pay a mechanic do it right for me and it's not that expensive where I go.
( Last edited by And.reg; Oct 11, 2016 at 09:19 PM. )
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Laminar
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Oct 12, 2016, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What you seem to be saying
It's what I'm literally saying
     
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Oct 12, 2016, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
It's what I'm literally saying
But then I don't understand your line of argumentation prior to that: saying FWD cars handle better in curves than AWD is very different from AWD does give you an advantage, but it's only marginal and not appreciable.
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Oct 12, 2016, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
But then I don't understand your line of argumentation prior to that: saying FWD cars handle better in curves than AWD is very different from AWD does give you an advantage, but it's only marginal and not appreciable.
FWD's failure mode and recovery method are preferable. AWD can help the car rotate under power, but had no advantage when not under power.
     
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Oct 13, 2016, 01:26 PM
 
I just realized that car I'm looking at came with a handling package option, but it was only available with AWD. Now I have to decide how much I want that package.
     
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Oct 13, 2016, 03:45 PM
 
Thanks Lam and And for the tire answers!

I'd do it in a second if this wasn't the type of thing I'm almost positive I'm too lazy to deal with.
     
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Oct 13, 2016, 07:19 PM
 
You're not losing out on much. I know people in the northeast who have used various brands of all seasons for 40 years, without bothering to switch to winter tires. They've "driven in it all." Even in the very worst storms (even ice storms), you can go really slow and still make it, but you will slip/slide. After all, most people will be going really slow anyway to give themselves more response time. But I still prefer the improved safety of winter tires (and traction control).
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Oct 15, 2016, 04:23 PM
 
So what ?
In reality, most people will make a very poor equipment decisions for the winter, and on top of that, drive like idiots.

I'm probably driving like an idiot myself (can't help it much), BUT I can (and have to) compensate with excellent equipment choices.

So, even if it's overkill, dedicated winter tires and AWD is it.

-t
     
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Oct 16, 2016, 09:24 AM
 
It's an expensive choice, so if you have it and/or must use it for work, then use it, but consider a customer looking to finance. AWD may be out of their budget.
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Oct 16, 2016, 06:58 PM
 
Lots of cars, and classes of cars, are available with AWD with a fairly small price penalty.
     
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Oct 17, 2016, 03:13 PM
 
Yeah, unless you're ordering from the dealer and paying MSRP, the hit isn't that big, everything's negotiable, especially if you're buying used. There is a higher running cost due to weight, complexity, and reduced fuel mileage. Going with AWD on the Fusion, for example, costs a couple highway mpg and about $150/year in gas (per the EPA).
     
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Oct 17, 2016, 04:05 PM
 
The cheapest new Toyota (Yaris) that I see is at $15,250, and the cheapest car with AWD that they are selling (RAV4) is at $24,910.

That's a difference of $9,660, before taxes and financing.

That's NOT a "fairly small price penalty." Again, if you consider a customer looking to finance, then AWD may be out of their budget.
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Oct 17, 2016, 04:19 PM
 
Two of my previous cars were AWD, and the third had switchable.

It will be interesting to see what happens now that I have only FWD. It was inconceivable to me I'd not have AWD when I started shopping. Unfortunately (fortunately?) this year looks similar to last, where I won't be doing a whole lot of winter driving.

Thinking about it though, the main times AWD obviously helped me was dealing with parking after a snowpocalypse.
     
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Oct 18, 2016, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by And.reg View Post
The cheapest new Toyota (Yaris) that I see is at $15,250, and the cheapest car with AWD that they are selling (RAV4) is at $24,910.

That's a difference of $9,660, before taxes and financing.

That's NOT a "fairly small price penalty." Again, if you consider a customer looking to finance, then AWD may be out of their budget.
He was talking about the same car. Obviously the person looking at a Yaris and the person looking at a RAV4 have different needs.

You can pick up a new Impreza for $18,000.
     
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Oct 20, 2016, 11:42 PM
 
Yeah. The price difference between the FWD and AWD RAV4 is what you are looking for - it's not that bad.
     
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Nov 9, 2016, 03:36 PM
 
So, I'm guessing since winter tires put you on the treadmill of swapping tires every 6 months anyway, if you can afford it, might as well dump the all-weathers and get a set of summer tires?
     
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Nov 9, 2016, 03:42 PM
 
YES.

Well, it depends. If you're really into g-forces and cornering hard, then summer tires are great. But they're typically louder and wear faster than all-seasons. My wife's car gets about 60,000 miles per set of all seasons, I'm lucky to see 20,000 on my summers. But we drive very differently.
     
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Nov 9, 2016, 04:09 PM
 
Well, it's a van.
     
 
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