[gomariners]

Does anyone know (I can't tell from Apple's site) if the scrolling trackpad is a feature in the OS, and old PBs will get it, or if there's some hardware piece. It's no biggee - I've been using Sidetrack which works great for this purpose.

[pastusza]

I am curious about this myself. I don't quite see how this could be implemented in hardware. I am planning to give sidertrack a try tonight and see how it goes.

Andy

[funkboy]

More than likely it's a new piece of hardware that can detect two individual points on the trackpad surface... in which case no software could do it.

[mintcake]

I don't think it's Apple's habit to offer new features on old models, even if they're only implemented in software. See the iPod by way of example. It wouldn't be hard to let 1G/2G/3G owners have the 'shuffle' option in the root menu, as you have with the 4G. But no, if you want that, you need the 4G or Mini. :/

[Randman]

SideTrack.

[Visnaut]

I like the fact that as users, we have a choice between uControl or SideTrack, and that future 'books will now have that feature built-in (and in a rather intuitive fashion, I'll admit).

I just wish either one of the aforementioned utilities allowed the usage of the trackpad as a scrollwheel � la iPod, with a clock-wise motion for scrolling down, and counter-clickwise for scrolling up. I hate the repetitive motion of using scroll wheels on mice, and their emulated counterparts on trackpads.

The animated gif on Apple's site for the new powerbook suggests you can scroll in a clock-wise motion, but I'm not sure if that translates into scrolling up/down, or if it just pans a really large document as mentioned in the accompanying paragraph.



Apple innovated a great way of scrolling through lists effortlessly in one smooth uninterrupted motion, and I wish they would apply that solution to not just to iPods but to powerbooks, and even future mice. They could still maintain the one-button form-factor, but have a touch-sensitive 'zone' on the mouse to allow scrolling just like on an iPod.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

I am pretty sure it is just a software feature but Apple wouldn't release it for older books as they want you to upgrade anyway.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
I am pretty sure it is just a software feature but Apple wouldn't release it for older books as they want you to upgrade anyway.

Maybe not.

Looks like it's new hardware...

And this isn't just a software change, according to Moody -- it's a physical difference in how the TrackPad works.

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/01...book/index.php

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Maybe not.

Looks like it's new hardware...

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/01...book/index.php

Well my point is even IF it was just software apple wouldn't give it to older Powerbook users.

[TailsToo]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Well my point is even IF it was just software apple wouldn't give it to older Powerbook users.

...just like they do to iPod users.

[crazybeckhams]

how reliable is sidetrack? I am a heavy photoshop cs user and don't use a mouse. are there any compatibility issues w/ cs? what is the good (besides the obvious scrolling) for downloading sidetrack? what's the bad?

[Randman]

Originally posted by crazybeckhams:
how reliable is sidetrack? I am a heavy photoshop cs user and don't use a mouse. are there any compatibility issues w/ cs? what is the good (besides the obvious scrolling) for downloading sidetrack? what's the bad?

I actually prefer the double click/right click options. Very dependable. Never had any problems with it.

[fraeone]

I'm not convinced that this is new hardware that allows this. The sidetrack author has already gone on the record as saying that old AlBooks can detect two finger input perfectly well, what else would they need?

Someone just needs to hack the driver

[dialo]

Originally posted by crazybeckhams:
how reliable is sidetrack? I am a heavy photoshop cs user and don't use a mouse. are there any compatibility issues w/ cs? what is the good (besides the obvious scrolling) for downloading sidetrack? what's the bad?

Sidetrack has always worked fine for me. It's nice to be able to set the size of the scroll areas and use corner tapping for expose

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by TailsToo:
...just like they do to iPod users.

Exactly.

[Cwriter]

my guess is it's all in the software driver for the trackpad, in which case it would be possible for scrolling on an other trackpad, but unlikely Apple would "unlock" this feature.

I've been using sidetrack for almost a year and cannot recommend it high enough.

[markponcelet]

Originally posted by dialo:
Sidetrack has always worked fine for me. It's nice to be able to set the size of the scroll areas and use corner tapping for expose

Corner tapping for expose! Brilliant! I can't believe I never thought of that. I think you just doubled the value of that extension for me.

Mark

[wuzup101]

Yup sidetrack is great. I never encountered any problems with any programs (and I use photoshop a decent amount). I have the horizontal/vertical scroll set. Also use top left corner to right click, top right to go forward in a browser, bottom left to go back in a browser, and bottom right as F9 expose. Well worth the $15 and then some...

[cwagar]

So there's two questions here:

1. "Can" the older Albooks support the new "sticky scrolling". YES. A co-worker has hacked the AppleADBMouse.cpp driver and several of us are using it right now. The new Apple "Sticky Scrolling" works fine on my old AlBook. (1.5Ghz)

2. "Will" Apple support it on older models? I guess that depends on their marketing folks.

In any case, should sticky scrolling *not* be supported within the next few software updates, I'm sure that someone will put another driver out there to enable it.

Clayton

[CubeWannaB]

Originally posted by cwagar:
A co-worker has hacked the AppleADBMouse.cpp driver and several of us are using it right now.

Care to share? PM me. Please.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by cwagar:
A co-worker has hacked the AppleADBMouse.cpp driver and several of us are using it right now.

I would also like to take a look at this driver. It should work on pretty much every Apple laptop trackpad since they all support scrolling (as evidenced by Sidetrack)

[Basilisk]

1. "Can" the older Albooks support the new "sticky scrolling". YES. A co-worker has hacked the AppleADBMouse.cpp driver and several of us are using it right now. The new Apple "Sticky Scrolling" works fine on my old AlBook. (1.5Ghz)

2. "Will" Apple support it on older models? I guess that depends on their marketing folks.

Not quite... The assumption you're making is that the new scrolling is based on W-Enhanced mode. I understand what you're coworker has done, but it may not be the same thing as Apple is doing on the new PowerBooks. As I originally posted on my site (where most people got the info about W-Enhanced) this is a possibility, but there are signs from Apple that it may actually be new hardware, possibly even a USB-based pad.

Until someone actually has a new 'book and gets some specs from IOReg assertions about what Apple can and can't do are pointless.

I would also like to take a look at this driver. It should work on pretty much every Apple laptop trackpad since they all support scrolling (as evidenced by Sidetrack)

Definitely not. It will only work on W-Enhanced pads, which includes only recent models some (but not all) Aluminum PowerBooks and some iBooks. Earlier models definitely _won't_ work (Titanium, early iBooks, etc. are not W-Enhanced).

Don't take the idea that SideTrack works on those pads as indications they support W-Enhanced. Its a popular misconception, but SideTrack doesn't just "enable" preexisting features on the pad. SideTrack basically kicks the pad into its lowest level mode (absolute mode) and then simulates in software all of the pad features (scrolling, taps, tap drag. etc.).

This is very different than what the Apple driver does, which is basically rely on the pad firmware ("enhanced" relative mode) to deal with all features. It is possible (perhaps even likely) that Apple has extended "enhanced" relative mode on the new pad hardware, not used W-Enhance two-finger detection for their new scrolling.

More info on my site as soon as I know more,

Alex
(SideTrack author)

[cwagar]

Wow. Many of you have PM'ed me for a 'private' copy of the hacked driver. I'm sorry to say I can't provide it to you.

- It's not my work, and therefore not my place to redistribute.

- The APSL (under which AppleADBMouse.cpp is distributed) requires that with the driver, he distribute the source code. This hack is only a few days old and not confirmed to be production quality. Accordingly there's no point in distributing source that's just a hack.

However, if you take a look at the mouse driver in darwin, Available Here , you'll see that the driver already has logic in it for two finger operation. (Search for _sticky2finger).

Perhaps some enterprising coder wants to take up the ball from here. I personally think it will be in 10.3.8 or Tiger, but that's just a guess.

Clayton

[cwagar]

Originally posted by Basilisk:
Not quite... The assumption you're making is that the new scrolling is based on W-Enhanced mode. I understand what you're coworker has done, but it may not be the same thing as Apple is doing on the new PowerBooks. As I originally posted on my site (where most people got the info about W-Enhanced) this is a possibility, but there are signs from Apple that it may actually be new hardware, possibly even a USB-based pad.

Until someone actually has a new 'book and gets some specs from IOReg assertions about what Apple can and can't do are pointless.

Alex,

Well certainly you know far more about the inner workings of the trackpad than I do, but I disagree with your assertion. I made no assumptions about what mode the trackpad was in, I simply identified that a relatively lightweight hack to an existing driver enabled two finger scrolling on my older AlBook.

How Apple achieves that behavior on the new products, and with what type of hardware, has nothing to do with the fact that it's a marketing decision on whether to port some of these changes back to the ADB driver (assuming that the new 'pad is USB).

It is most certainly a product management/marketing decision whether to create consistency across two similar models in software.

Assuming it's new hardware, and has even more enhanced capabilities that the 'older' products cannot support, then it's still a PM decision to decided what subset of features get backported. Since I'm using Sticky Scrolling now on my 'old' AlBook, it can't be an engineering problem.

The new 'books are coming in so hopefully you will have some information soon.

Clayton

[Basilisk]

I simply identified that a relatively lightweight hack to an existing driver enabled two finger scrolling on my older AlBook.

I understand, and I wasn't trying to invalidate what you said, I'm trying to make sure folks are clear on what the actual technology is.

You said:

The new Apple "Sticky Scrolling" works fine on my old AlBook.

And I was simply trying to clarify that in fact what you have right now is a "work-alike" version of the scrolling, not the actual implementation of the feature and not one that is guaranteed to be directly substitutable.

This may seem like a subtle distinction, but its an important one right now, and you'll have to forgive me for being sensitive to it. I've been flooded with email on these things the last few days, and equating work-alike with actual implementation is a common misconception that I'd like to see not spread. In fact my post was triggered in direct reponse to someone who read your post an misinterpreted it.

The distinction is important because of the patent issue. Work-alikes may feel the same, but they may be a violation of the patent. Without getting into the propriety of such a patent (prior art, etc.) the reality is that if its a software implementation then backporting the feature (in SideTrack or in your coworker's implementation) may be a patent violation.

It is most certainly a product management/marketing decision whether to create consistency across two similar models in software.

I don't disagree, its obviously been a design/management decision all along as to what features the pad supports (just like the one-button decision).

Since I'm using Sticky Scrolling now on my 'old' AlBook, it can't be an engineering problem.

That's the sort of leap I'm worried about. W-Enhanced two finger detection is somewhat flaky at best, and its totally hardware implemented so there's not much that can be done in the driver to improve it. I understand that it works well for you, but you'll have to trust me that it doesn't work well for everyone. This fundamental flakiness is one of the reasons SideTrack doesn't depend on it right now.

In a sense, I'm hopeful that it is new hardware (and new firmware) because it means two things:

- If its hardware then the hardware is patented and I can offer the two-finger scrolling on machines that use the new hardware.
- If its hardware I hope its recogniation system is more reliable than what I've seen from W-Enhanced pads.

The new 'books are coming in so hopefully you will have some information soon.

Several folks have their new machines and are promising ioreg info tonight. I'm eagerly awaiting it,

Alex

[Basilisk]

OK, I got my first IOReg report. Its totally new hardware. Its a USB device, all two finger magic appears to be hardware based. SideTrack is not compatible (just won't load), and at this point I'm not sure what will be required to port.

I'll be posting more info on my site tonight,

Alex

[CubeWannaB]

Originally posted by Basilisk:
OK, I got my first IOReg report. Its totally new hardware. Its a USB device, all two finger magic appears to be hardware based. SideTrack is not compatible (just won't load), and at this point I'm not sure what will be required to port.

I'll be posting more info on my site tonight,

Alex

Thanks for the report. Good luck, and keep up the good work.

[Ricky]

I've always preferred just hitting the space bar to scroll through a page. I tried Sidetrack for a couple of weeks and I just kept going back to the spacebar out of habit.

[wingdo]

Originally posted by Ricky:
I've always preferred just hitting the space bar to scroll through a page. I tried Sidetrack for a couple of weeks and I just kept going back to the spacebar out of habit.

Scrolling in sidetrack works in all applications tough. If you only want to scroll through web pages yup, spacebar works fine. If you are trying to scroll through a word document, the spacebar is not suce a good idea. Scrolling also works well in games with sidetrack.

Great little app.

[Ricky]

Originally posted by wingdo:
Scrolling in sidetrack works in all applications tough. If you only want to scroll through web pages yup, spacebar works fine. If you are trying to scroll through a word document, the spacebar is not suce a good idea. Scrolling also works well in games with sidetrack.

Great little app.

You're right. I later thought about people wanting to scroll in something besides Safari.

[Guy Kuo]

As exciting as the new two finger scrolling seems, I really have to take pause and praise Sidetrack. With that program I've been enjoying and using trackpad scrolling for what seems a long time. When I get on a PowerBook that doesn't have Sidetrack, it feels like I'm back in the dark ages. Aiming at and clicking on the scroll arrows or having to move my fingers away from the trackpad to use function keys --- ugh! Sidetrack lets you scroll effortlessy in situations that would otherwise be clumsy. For instance, I can cleanly scroll this web page or textfield.

The one nit I have is that SideTrack doesn't always seem to recognize corner taps. I use a corner tap to go backwards during web browsing, but on some web pages I can tap madly in the corner and nothing happens. Most of the time corner tapping works just fine, and this isn't a matter of the pad calibration or tap area settings being too small. Some web pages just seem to magically disable the effect of corner tapping. This is with the mouse within the page contents too.

Overall, Sidetrack is very strongly recommended. PC laptops have long had this type of functionality. It's a shame more Mac users don't get to enjoy this convenience.

[Rbt_Stack]

I enjoy using the sidetrack software, but it would be great if someone would make a plactic insert that covers the trackpad with open corners and slots along each side for guidance and to prevent accidental sidetrack functions. Does anyone else feel the same. Robert from http://www.zoshe.com

[Alex Duffield]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Well my point is even IF it was just software apple wouldn't give it to older Powerbook users.

Why does every one say that.. Will Spot Light work on my old iBook??? Does Expose work??? Apple is ALLWAYS adding software features that would on older models.

[Basilisk]

I enjoy using the sidetrack software, but it would be great if someone would make a plactic insert that covers the trackpad with open corners and slots along each side for guidance and to prevent accidental sidetrack functions. Does anyone else feel the same

One user did and came up with what I think is a clever (and cheap) solution. He bought vinyl tape in silver (to match the pad) like you would use for lettering on car windows. Cut strips for the scroll areas and corners. That way the whole scroll area is raised slightly. So long as the tape is reasonably thin it won't interfere with the pads sensitivity.

Its a neat idea, and ahould be easy to adapt to your preferences.

Alex

[beverson]

I know this is supposed to be a forum for the new scrolling trackpad, but I have got to also take a second to praise SideTrack and thank Alex as well. If you have a PowerBook or iBook and don't use SideTrack, then you have no idea what you're missing.

That being said, I'm getting ready to order a new PowerBook and I'm very excited to try Apple's take on scrolling. Seems like one of those, "Oh yeah -- that's how it's SUPPOSED to work!" things that Apple does so very well. Though I think, once it's updated to support the new PowerBooks, I'll probably still keep SideTrack around for corner taps and whatnot -- and whatever else Alex manages to think up. It's really fantastic software.

[Rbt_Stack]

Alex the tape thing sounds great. Maybe someone with some extra time could put together a How To for a sidetrack powerbook scroll tape insert. They could also provide different templetes (ie: left and right handed) to download for tracing on silver or clear ridgid vinyl contact tape. Basically, a step by step instructions. Before people run out and do such a thing, I believe finding what material to use will be the most important thing here, since you do not want something that will leave a mess when you need to peel it off the track pad. Looking at the trackpad, it also seems possible of wedging something ridgid and glueless along the edges with tabs at key places, if I find the time and it also works, I will make a glueless one with tabs and share it with everyone. Does all the powerbooks and ibooks have the same size track pads? Robert from http://www.zoshe.com

[crooner]

Originally posted by wuzup101:
Yup sidetrack is great. I never encountered any problems with any programs (and I use photoshop a decent amount). I have the horizontal/vertical scroll set. Also use top left corner to right click, top right to go forward in a browser, bottom left to go back in a browser, and bottom right as F9 expose. Well worth the $15 and then some...

My sentiments, exactly. One of the best shareware applications for 'Books. No hassles at all.

[The Wolf]

here! here! Thanks 4 SideTrack!

[onemilehigh]

I head up a software company that sells software for the Mac and I use a Mac as my full time computer. But, this feature has been available for at least 5 years on many Windows computers, especially DELL laptops.

We use both Mac and Windows laptops in our business. I'm glad to see Apple implementing this feature, as I've preferred my DELL laptop for surfing the net just because of the scrolling ability on the trackpad. With DELL's software (made by Synaptics), you can define horizontal and vertical scrolling along the edges of the trackpad, and you can define "tap zones" in the four corners to do other things (like Back and Forward in a browser).

-Scott

[iREZ]

I don't get the shareware part of Sidetrack. I downloaded it and am using it without registering or whatever. Are there any other features if I pay, if not I guess I'll get to paying for it when I skip my next 2-3 dinners.

[Basilisk]

Well thank you all for the kind words about SideTrack

Now on to the questions...

Alex the tape thing sounds great. Maybe someone with some extra time could put together a How To for a sidetrack powerbook scroll tape insert.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, I dug this up from my old email from the user:
http://blog.atariboy.com/archives/000236.html

Basically, a step by step instructions. Before people run out and do such a thing, I believe finding what material to use will be the most important thing here, since you do not want something that will leave a mess when you need to peel it off the track pad.

That's an excellent point, and one I'm afraid I can't easily answer. The original suggestion came from someone who used auto window tape, but I suspect that may be fairly permanent. You'll probably want to look at 3M (Scotch brand) tapes, they have some zero-residue stuff. In fact, anything with Post-It type adhesive is probably safe. I personally have used the Post-It tape flags on my pad to mask things off during testing and it left no problems.

Looking at the trackpad, it also seems possible of wedging something ridgid and glueless along the edges with tabs at key places, if I find the time and it also works, I will make a glueless one with tabs and share it with everyone.

Be more cautious with this. Anything stuck there will cause sensor problems. I frequently hear from users with pad problems who have tiny things (pet hair, etc.) caught in the crack at the pad edge.

Does all the powerbooks and ibooks have the same size track pads?

No, there are several sizes in common use. 12", 15" and 17" Aluminum pads, Tituanium pads, and a variety of iBook pads (all different sizes).

I don't get the shareware part of Sidetrack. I downloaded it and am using it without registering or whatever. Are there any other features if I pay, if not I guess I'll get to paying for it when I skip my next 2-3 dinners.

SideTrack is shareware in the old-fashioned sense. Its fully functional while you try it. The license allows you 30 days to play with it and see if you like it. During that time it will periodically pop up the reminder dialog.

Alex

[jasong]

Originally posted by wuzup101:
top right to go forward in a browser, bottom left to go back in a browser

Whoa! I never thought to do that.

Oh, and to the people claiming the older iPods never get the new features, I know my original 5 GB iPod couldn't play AAC (either from the iPod store or my own). It also couldn't play Audible files. It does both of those now . . .

-- Jason

PS SideTrack is awesome, can't praise it enough.

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by Alex Duffield:
Why does every one say that.. Will Spot Light work on my old iBook??? Does Expose work??? Apple is ALLWAYS adding software features that would on older models.

That's something different.

[Rbt_Stack]

Alex it's great to see the effort you put into answering questions about sidetrack. Ok, I tryed both conductive and non-conductive glueless inserts of various materials and they all seem to cause more problems then they solved. Mostly, just staying in place and bizarre behaviors. I also tryed tape with mixed results. Ideally it seems a void of space between all zones with individual tracing of each zone is needed to achieve perfect working behavior. Anyway, the tape seems to work well enough to stick with it. So I basically ended up using very old narrow strips of border tape, the kind you find in a drafting store to make voids between the zones. I believe using a void method might work better than coving each zone with tape and less of a mess when removed. Anyway, here is a simple diagram I made using this method at http://www.zoshe.com/ . I had no non-conductive tape on hand to try, but if I did, I don't think I would try it unless I was sure it's adhesive properties would not create non-conductive areas after removing it.

[markponcelet]

Originally posted by markponcelet:
Corner tapping for expose! Brilliant! I can't believe I never thought of that. I think you just doubled the value of that extension for me.

Mark

Just thought of another excellent use for sidetrack: putting Command-` in a corner to switch windows in an application. Command-Tab is easy enough for fingers, but that corner-tap idea would be cool.

Okay. Back to thread now.

Mark

[MickS]

Originally posted by Goldfinger:
That's something different.

I don't think that it is. One of the reasons that Apple hardware lasts so long is that, in general, Apple take care in making sure that they have backwards compatibility.

Now this feature is tied to a hardware change and new features available in the trackpad hardware on the new Powerbooks. Sure they *could* spend some time and get a work-a-like solution that would give similar functionality on older hardware. However its unlikely that it would perform as well or as reliably. This would lead to more accusations of Apple having poor quality control.

[N.N.]

Originally posted by jasong:
Oh, and to the people claiming the older iPods never get the new features, I know my original 5 GB iPod couldn't play AAC (either from the iPod store or my own). It also couldn't play Audible files. It does both of those now . . .

Well, obviously it was in Apple's best interest to enable the older iPods to play AAC and Audible files.

However, it's quite as obvious that Apple is generally reluctant to add new, nice-to-have features to older hardware by means of firmware updates, probably because this might lessen the user's incentive to upgrade to a new model.

[Basilisk]

Alex it's great to see the effort you put into answering questions about sidetrack.

Glad I could help, just keep in mind I can't monitor the boards as closely as I would like. Its always best to send email.

Ok, I tryed both conductive and non-conductive glueless inserts of various materials and they all seem to cause more problems then they solved. Mostly, just staying in place and bizarre behaviors.

That's what I would expect...

Anyway, the tape seems to work well enough to stick with it. So I basically ended up using very old narrow strips of border tape, the kind you find in a drafting store to make voids between the zones.

That sounds good too, I'll stash a link to your page the next time the question comes up

Alex

[JayTay]

Well look what we have here: http://www-users.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de/~razzfazz/

This is a hack to activate two-finger scrolling on supported pre-2005 PowerBooks and iBooks (i.e. those with a "W-Enhanced" trackpad, including most AlBooks and recent iBooks) on OS X 10.3 (tested on 10.3.7).

It is based on Apple's AppleADBMouse-209.0.10 driver from 10.3.7 that is available as part of the publicly released Darwin source code.

I've tried it (and have it running now) and can confirm it works perfectly.

[ARENA]

Originally posted by JayTay:
Well look what we have here: http://www-users.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de/~razzfazz/



I've tried it (and have it running now) and can confirm it works perfectly.

Is there a way to install this without using project builder? i dont't have the developer tools and would really like to try it out in mi Al.