[anthonyvthc]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

It's Vox Balaenae. I think you got it mixed up with Lux Aeterna there.

D'oh! Yeah, it was pretty late when I wrote that.....and I was pretty drunk.

I recently got to see a performance of that piece in a very small venue with Crumb present. He spoke about all his pieces that were performed. It was a trip.

[Baphomet]

Ennio Morricone, possibly? I'll admit I'm not really qualified to label him as "genius," but he seems innovative enough to throw his name in the mix. I'll let the more musically educated here make that call.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by analogika

Enya didn't "create" anything; she merely popularized New Age to the point of nausea. There is nothing in her music that hadn't been done - and better - by, say, Vollenweider, or Kraftwerk, or a combination of the two.

You might not like her, but she did create something. She (or rather, they) invented a whole new way of using the human voice as an instrument, as well as blending popular music with traditional Gaelic music in a way that hadn't been done before either. I don't see how you can compare Enya to Kraftwerk either... in my book, the two have nothing in common!

[Y3a]

Manilow wrote a LOT of catchy advertising jingles, which is difficult to do.

[Nai no Kami]

Or my standards are out of place or "genius" has achieved the record of the most devalued word of the century.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Nai no Kami

Or my standards are out of place or "genius" has achieved the record of the most devalued word of the century.

I'd go with option #2.

(And 'o... o...' is 'either... or...' in English )

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Frank Zappa
Stan Kenton
Louis Jordan
Rick Wakeman
Barry Manilow
Van Morrison
Prince
Stevie Wonder
Beethovan
Mozart
J. S. Bach
John Coltraine
Harry Nilsson

All the rest are idiot savants

Frank Zappa - Why?
Stan Kenton - Why?
Louis Jordan - Why?
Rick Wakeman - Why?
Barry Manilow - Why?
Van Morrison - Why?
Prince - Why?
Stevie Wonde - Why?r
Beethovan - Why?
Mozart - Why?
J. S. Bach - Why?
John Coltraine - Why?
Harry Nilsson - Why?

If you can't tell us why you think they are geniuses what's the point of even posting?

Please make a case for them if they are as good as you think they are.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by analogika

No.

Eno created, and was *tremendously* influential. Much of Bowie -


oh yeah, speaking of true musical genius:

BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE


- wouldn't have have happened without him, and what made U2's Joshua Tree album was Eno.

Enya didn't "create" anything; she merely popularized New Age to the point of nausea. There is nothing in her music that hadn't been done - and better - by, say, Vollenweider, or Kraftwerk, or a combination of the two.

Don't confuse *liking* something with it being *genius*.

I like Billy Joel a lot, and I think he's a hell of a songwriter, and Billy the Kid has some amazing piano work on it, but I don't consider him a genius.

-s*

I think for me it is maybe too relative a term to absolutely exclude anyone but the most obvious who are NOT genius.

1 a Extraordinary intellectual and creative power.
b A person of extraordinary intellect and talent: “One is not born a genius, one
becomes a genius” (Simone de Beauvoir).
c A person who has an exceptionally high intelligence quotient, typically above 140.
2
a A strong natural talent, aptitude, or inclination: has a genius for choosing the right
words.
b One who has such a talent or inclination: a genius at diplomacy.

1 : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity
2 : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; specifically : a person with a very high intelligence quotient

genius

n 1: someone who has exceptional intellectual ability and originality; "Mozart was a child genius"; "he's smart but he's no Einstein" [syn: mastermind, brain, Einstein] 2: unusual mental ability [syn: brilliance] 3: someone who is dazzlingly skilled in any field [syn: ace, adept, champion, sensation, maven, mavin, virtuoso, hotshot, star, superstar, whiz, whizz, wizard, wiz] 4: exceptional creative ability [syn: wizardry] 5: a natural talent; "he has a flair for mathematics"; "he has a genius for interior decorating" [syn: flair]

[ihatesuvs68]

Have you guys ever heard Beck's "Gameboy Variations" album? It's pretty... unlike anything I've heard before, but in a good way.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by analogika

oh yeah, speaking of true musical genius:

BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE BOWIE

I can't believe this thread went so long before SOMEONE mentioned Bowie! And I'm kind of ticked at myself for not mentioning him first...

As some people have mentioned with Frank Zappa, Bowie went to extremes, took some substantial risks throughout his career, and still managed to be innovative and new. Inventing Ziggie Startust was genius by itself (and not something easily copied-look at Garth Brooks' attempt to invent a pop character...). And does anyone here remember that David guested on a Bing Crosby Christmas special? OH yes! Bing sang "Little Drummer Boy" and David sang a wonderful counterpoint to it.

I would have to say that if this wasn't supposed to be about contemporary artists, I'd have brought up Bing Crosby, too. While he wasn't the first "crooner," he took the genre from the Rudy Valley "megaphone" era into real recording. Reimagining a musical genre to take over a new technology takes either prescience or genius, and I'm voting genius (because if Bing had been prescient, his racehorses would have won!).

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Oisín

You might not like her, but she did create something. She (or rather, they) invented a whole new way of using the human voice as an instrument, as well as blending popular music with traditional Gaelic music in a way that hadn't been done before either. I don't see how you can compare Enya to Kraftwerk either... in my book, the two have nothing in common!

Sound design.

Listen to Kraftwerk's "Kometenmelodie" or some of the stuff off "Radioactivity".

Add to that what Eno did with processing, except removing all creativity from his work, leaving only completely overdone digital delay and massive reverb, add Vollenweider, and add some (admittedly quite beautiful occasionally) vocals...

The choral work is nothing new and completely trounced by Russian chorals or whatever, and if you want the vocal work and a fairly similar context - except *good* - listen to Dead Can Dance, much of which significantly predates Enya but never hit the :gag: New Age mainstream.

Enya just watered down the excellence enough to make it palatable for self-improvement courses.

I'm sorry: some of the Enya stuff is nice, really, but people really make to much of it.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I can't believe this thread went so long before SOMEONE mentioned Bowie! And I'm kind of ticked at myself for not mentioning him first...

As some people have mentioned with Frank Zappa, Bowie went to extremes, took some substantial risks throughout his career, and still managed to be innovative and new. Inventing Ziggie Startust was genius by itself (and not something easily copied-look at Garth Brooks' attempt to invent a pop character...). And does anyone here remember that David guested on a Bing Crosby Christmas special? OH yes! Bing sang "Little Drummer Boy" and David sang a wonderful counterpoint to it.

I would have to say that if this wasn't supposed to be about contemporary artists, I'd have brought up Bing Crosby, too. While he wasn't the first "crooner," he took the genre from the Rudy Valley "megaphone" era into real recording. Reimagining a musical genre to take over a new technology takes either prescience or genius, and I'm voting genius (because if Bing had been prescient, his racehorses would have won!).

It was amended to include any artists alive during any of our lifetimes. If we had to make a definite cutoff, I'd guess the oldest poster might be maybe 70 years old. Then any artist who died AFTER 1935 would be eligible.

Der Bingle and Rudy Vallee died after 1935 and so both certainly qualify if you want to make a case for them. I once heard someone call Bing Crosby the first "hipster." That puts the Christmas duet with Bowie in a different and more understandable light than simply having an old traditional singer paired with a new cutting edge modern singer. However, I get nervous watching that performance because I can sense both of their unease.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by analogika

Sound design.

Listen to Kraftwerk's "Kometenmelodie" or some of the stuff off "Radioactivity".

Add to that what Eno did with processing, except removing all creativity from his work, leaving only completely overdone digital delay and massive reverb, add Vollenweider, and add some (admittedly quite beautiful occasionally) vocals...

The choral work is nothing new and completely trounced by Russian chorals or whatever, and if you want the vocal work and a fairly similar context - except *good* - listen to Dead Can Dance, much of which significantly predates Enya but never hit the :gag: New Age mainstream.

Enya just watered down the excellence enough to make it palatable for self-improvement courses.

I'm sorry: some of the Enya stuff is nice, really, but people really make to much of it.

When did Enya start her thing? WAY BEFORE New Age WAS mainstream. She LED New Age INTO the mainstream, something even Brian Eno couldn't do. How did Eno's contemporaries in the late 1970s get into the mainstream? Harold Faltermayer wrote movie scores-including "Beverly Hills Cop" and the resoundingly innovative "Axel F's Theme." But before that he and Eno and Georgio Moroder were nich artists. Enya combined traditional Celtic melodies with new and different ways of playing them. Plus by using Gaelic (and Latin) words as beats, she introduced some very new ideas in musical presentation. Where would New Age music be today without "Orinoco Flow?" In the last row of CDs, behind soundtracks for bad movies that nobody ever went to see.
And if you think all she is is too much reverb, you haven't listened to her at all. Try "Pax Deorum" on for size.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by ghporter

She LED New Age INTO the mainstream...

Something that might be considered a crime is some circles... I've never gotten the new age thing. It's supposed to be relaxing, but I find myself getting tense listening to it, because I'm... waiting... for... SOMETHING... to... happen! And mostly, it never does. I've found myself yelling at the stereo "Change keys already!" Not too relaxing for me.

Perhaps she's fused two styles of music together, but when the outcome is banal and sterile, what's the point? Enya's stuff is full of stock Yamaha DX-7 patches too, and I've always hated those things. Just me, though. If it floats your boat, then great. You'd probably HATE the Jesus Lizard.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter

When did Enya start her thing? WAY BEFORE New Age WAS mainstream. She LED New Age INTO the mainstream, something even Brian Eno couldn't do. How did Eno's contemporaries in the late 1970s get into the mainstream? Harold Faltermayer wrote movie scores-including "Beverly Hills Cop" and the resoundingly innovative "Axel F's Theme." But before that he and Eno and Georgio Moroder were nich artists. Enya combined traditional Celtic melodies with new and different ways of playing them. Plus by using Gaelic (and Latin) words as beats, she introduced some very new ideas in musical presentation.

Enya's first album came out in 1987.

Dead Can Dance had been doing similar stuff in better for years.

Eno co-produced BOWIE in the mid-to-late 70s.

And Giorgio Moroder produced an absolute WORLD-WIDE SMASH HIT in 1977 - "I Feel Love". Donna Summer was hardly a "niche artist".

Oh, and googling the release date for that song, I found this tidbit:

When Brian Eno first listened to this song, he told David Bowie, "I've heard the sound of the future."

Originally Posted by ghporter

Where would New Age music be today without "Orinoco Flow?" In the last row of CDs, behind soundtracks for bad movies that nobody ever went to see.

I take it you would consider that a bad thing...

Originally Posted by ghporter

And if you think all she is is too much reverb, you haven't listened to her at all. Try "Pax Deorum" on for size.

I specifically said - several times - that some of her stuff is nice, and that I in fact have some of her music.

But innovative, it was not, is not, and calling it "genius" is just silly.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by chris v

Enya's stuff is full of stock Yamaha DX-7 patches too, and I've always hated those things. Just me, though.

Not just you.

That's actually a point I made up above, as well: It's almost all FACTORY PRESET PATCHES.

I bought my Yammy SY77 in 1990, and found that the damn Arianne preset (Bank 2, Patch D6 IIRC) is ALL OVER Enya's stuff - right down to the tiffy little tambourine sample that gives it the attack.

Drown it in reverb and people call it "groundbreaking" and "innovative" - Holy Christ, people, even the sound design is completely unimaginative and uncreative!

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by analogika

Eno co-produced BOWIE in the mid-to-late 70s.

And all people knew about it was that Bowie was singing it.

And Giorgio Moroder produced an absolute WORLD-WIDE SMASH HIT in 1977 - "I Feel Love". Donna Summer was hardly a "niche artist".

Interesting. But Gorgio was doing his OWN stuff too, and that was certainly still in the niche artist category. Look for a piece called "Energy Equals MC Squared" by Moroder and Faltermayer. Wonderful stuff, innovative, breathtaking sound. But I don't think you'll find it in any store, though Donna's albums can still be found in a lot of places.

I take it you would consider that a bad thing...

I think the world would be poorer for it. I'm not saying it's cured world hunger, but it's made a lot of people happier.

I specifically said - several times - that some of her stuff is nice, and that I in fact have some of her music.

I guess this wasn't the place for hyperbole. I agree that some of her work is not as interesting as other pieces, but on the whole, I believe that bringing something soothing and relaxing to the world of music is a good thing. And I like Celtic music for itself anyway, particularly as it influenced the music of the English speaking world in ways that are hard to imagine until you have your nose rubbed in them-like where Bluegrass came from...

But innovative, it was not, is not, and calling it "genius" is just silly.

I have been looking for and seeking out "different" music for decades, and I have unfortunately never heard of Dead Can Dance, though I've heard of some very obscure artists. I can only conclude that, however good they are/were, they didn't break into the worldwide conciousness enough to generate the recognition that Enya did with her FIRST solo album.

edited to add: Rereading what I've posted, I see that I have erred in characterizing Enya as a genius in comparison to people like Eno, Moroder and Faltermayer (as well as some others). I have been mixing metaphores, confusing commercially successful music with music that reflects genius. While I still believe that Enya has brought much new and innovative music to the world, and that in doing so she has demonstrated a particular musical genius, I can't say that she stacks up with Bowie and/or Moroder for example. I have been personally affected by her music very deeply, and I guess that's why I so vehemently argued my case.

Looking back I have indeed heard of Dead Can Dance, though only peripherally. I know more about Steel Eye Span and Nina Hagen than DCD, if that says anything about the kinds of music I've listened to. And my current playlist includes more harp and other instrumental music than I realized...

[Nai no Kami]

Originally Posted by Oisín

I'd go with option #2.

(And 'o... o...' is 'either... or...' in English )

You are right. At least I can trench in the foreign langage point. Nevertheless, you are right.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I have been looking for and seeking out "different" music for decades, and I have unfortunately never heard of Dead Can Dance, though I've heard of some very obscure artists. I can only conclude that, however good they are/were, they didn't break into the worldwide conciousness enough to generate the recognition that Enya did with her FIRST solo album.

a) Dead Can Dance are pretty damn big in the indie scene, and among the biggest acts on the 4AD label. They tend to sell out large venues. If you haven't heard of them, you absolutely owe it to yourself to check them out - Aion and Into the Labyrinth are two of the best albums I own (and I own a lot of albums). Seriously - all petty quibbling aside. There's also "Towards the Within", which is a live album from the Labyrinth tour, recorded in the US. They're not some unknown little piss-band. A brief bio here. They're a little darker than Enya (their early albums are pretty nasty Goth, but they moved more towards ethnic/folk/medieval), but MUCH better.

b) the Orinoco Flow thing was on watermark, Enya's SECOND album. And actually, watermark was technically the THIRD album, IIRC. The first one - the Celts - was a BBC soundtrack album that didn't break into the worldwide consciousness at all until it was RE-released after Shepherd Moon.

[analogika]

DCD are available on iTMS, btw.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by analogika

) the Orinoco Flow thing was on watermark, Enya's SECOND album. And actually, watermark was technically the THIRD album, IIRC. The first one - the Celts - was a BBC soundtrack album that didn't break into the worldwide consciousness at all until it was RE-released after Shepherd Moon.

Quite correct. The Brits that watched the documentary "The Celts" got an earful and liked it, but nobody over here gave it airplay. I'm not sure how Watermark manaaged to break through, but I'm glad it did.

As for DCD, with the way I've been working over the last 20 or so years, it's been hard to keep up with new artists-so many have slipped away after one track that was listenable. About half of that time was spent in the music Mecca (NOT) of Biloxi, Mississippi, and if you add three years in Central America, I've obviously fallen behind on who's who. I need "schoolin'" in a big way, and hopefully I'll be able to find the time to look up artists like DCD that are worth my while.

(And take a look at my previous post-I've edited it...)

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by analogika

DCD are available on iTMS, btw.

Coincidentally, I found a stash of CDs I hadn't imported into iTunes today and am now listening to Toward the Within. Too bad there's not more in iTunes (U.S., at least): only 4 tunes.

After reading the thread, I'd agree with lavar, analogika, and zigzag.

[anthonyvthc]

Too much Enya discussion.

[Geo669]

Most people will disagree with my opinion, and many Americans i doubt will know who i'm talking about.
But being an aussie, i feel that daniel johns, is a musical genious.

Its disputable that Silverchairs older musical style is far from genius, but i feel that various songs on neon ballroom, (1999) and all of the music on Diorama (2001) are at an amazing level. his song writing talents changed dramatically, from post grunge music, to complete lush orchestral arrangements. Diorama is filled with magnitism positive energy, and colour. Its fantastic.

Song recommendations are

World upon your shoulders
Without You
Luv Your Life
Too much of not enough
Tuna in the Brine
Across the Night
The Greatest view
After all these years
(all from Diorama)

If its dark and depressing genius, Emotion Sickness, Paint Pastel Princess, Ana's Song From Neon Ballroom.

I also agree with bjork and Radiohead comments. Radiohead being extreamily innovative and unique. Brilliant.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter

edited to add: Rereading what I've posted, I see that I have erred in characterizing Enya as a genius in comparison to people like Eno, Moroder and Faltermayer (as well as some others). I have been mixing metaphores, confusing commercially successful music with music that reflects genius. While I still believe that Enya has brought much new and innovative music to the world, and that in doing so she has demonstrated a particular musical genius, I can't say that she stacks up with Bowie and/or Moroder for example. I have been personally affected by her music very deeply, and I guess that's why I so vehemently argued my case.

Thank you much for that clarification.

I didn't mean to slight you. Obviously, Enya has affected many people, being the success it was. Watermark hit a nerve at the right time.

Really, do check out the DCD albums "Into the Labyrinth" and "Aion". "The Wind that Shakes the Barley" off ITL is an old Irish war lament, sung a capella by Lisa Gerrard, is far more touching and powerful than anything Enya has done, IMO. (It's also drenched in reverb, but that's because most of the album was actually recorded in a stone church. )

Switch to the German or British iTunes Music Store for brief previews; we get seven of their albums (and one tribute album) here. The previews don't really do Labyrinth justice, though, since they tend to be cut in the lengthy intros of songs, and you'd think there aren't any drums on the album at all, when much of it has absolutely fantastic, hypnotic beats.

-s*

[jamil5454]

I'm gonna have to say Danny Carey, Tool's drummer. The way he plays his drums is unmatched. Sure there are some who play faster and harder (Neil Peart and Mike Portnoy), but they're more technical. Danny always finds ways to make a creative beat, even with no music. Take Ticks & Leeches for example, switching between 5/4 and 7/4 each measure.

It's one thing to be able to play that way, but to create it - that's on a whole other level. When's the next CD comin' out?

[budster101]

After re-reading the title of this thread. It doesn't say name the (Greatest) Contemporary Musical Genius, it says, name "A" Contemporary Musical Genius.

I'm resubmitting, Dave Brubeck. It would be a shame not to include him in this list.

He invented 5/4 and 7/4 and other more experimental times in Jazz.

"Dave Brubeck is an American jazz pianist who wrote a number of jazz standards, including "In Your Own Sweet Way" and "The Duke." Brubeck's style ranges from refined to bombastic, showing both his mother's attempts at classical training and his improvisational skills. Much of his music makes use of unusual time signatures; his long-time musical partner, alto saxophonist Paul Desmond, wrote what is arguably the quartet's most famous piece, "Take Five" (which is in 5/4 time). Brubeck experimented with time signatures through much of his career, recording "Pick Up Sticks" in 6/4, "Unsquare Dance" in 7/4, and "Blue Rondo A La Turk" in 9/8, an experimentation begun with his attempts to put music to the odd rhythms generated by various machines around him on his parents' cattle ranch in a small town in the western United States. "Blue Rondo A La Turk" is a play on Mozart's "Rondo alla Turca", and the 9/8 metre of traditional Turkish music, the country in which the band was touring when the tune was written."

[Naplander]

Aphex Twin

(repeated for effect)

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by analogika

Enya's first album came out in 1987.

Dead Can Dance had been doing similar stuff in better for years.

Her first solo album, The Celts, was originally released in 1986. Before that, she'd also done, among other things, most of the soundtrack to The Frog Prince (1984), and she'd been making an 'early version' of her trademark music together with Nicky and Roma Ryan since the late 70's, back when Nicky was still Clannad's producer, and before Eithne left the band. The only reason she didn't have an album out sooner than 1986 (apart from her (in)famous perfectionism that leads her to spend 3-4-5 years on each album) was that no one was interested in publishing her kind of music, because it wasn't popular enough, but also wasn't really New Age. She was 'discovered' by Rob Dicking in 1984, following The Frog Prince, and started working on The Celts then.

As far as I know, Dead Can Dance were formed in 1981, so they're not very much ahead of Enya, if at all. Besides, though I can see the similarities, I don't think DCD and Enya are that similar. They represent two different styles of music for me.

But innovative, it was not, is not, and calling it "genius" is just silly.

I agree calling it 'genius' is too much, but it was innovative.

Re the 'too much reverb': reverb is actually used on very few of her songs (only the mono-vocal ones have any reverb added in). The choral work isn't choral work either, since Eithne is the only vocalist on her songs. She just sings the same pieces over and over again, in different ways, having vocal tablatures more complex than operas at times. In 'Angeles', for instance, certain parts were recorded over 500 times to create the 'choir' effect.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Oisín

her (in)famous perfectionism that leads her to spend 3-4-5 years on each album

Celts - 86
Enya - 87
watermark - 88
Shepherd Moon took until 91, because it was tough to follow a huge success like watermark. I was disappointed - it was just more of the same.

Originally Posted by Oisín

She just sings the same pieces over and over again, in different ways

That I can agree with.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by analogika

Celts - 86
Enya - 87
watermark - 88
Shepherd Moon took until 91, because it was tough to follow a huge success like watermark. I was disappointed - it was just more of the same.

'Enya' and 'The Celts' is the same album, just re-released. Actually, I wrote that wrong up there:

'Enya' was originally released in very small stock (a few thousand, I think). It was sold out quickly and re-released as 'Enya' in 1987 (slightly different cover [got rid of the wolves], bigger stock). Due to demand, it was re-released again in 1992 as 'The Celts', as the original was very hard to get a hold of. Since then, The Celts has been the only version available.

She started working on some parts 'Watermark' already in 1985, before 'Enya' was even released. So it's almost three years from Enya to Watermark; three years from Watermark to Shepherd Moons; four years to The Memory of Trees (1995); five years to A Day without Rain (2000); and so far five years to the new one (not sure if the title is yet known).

Many people were disappointed with Shepherd Moons; I personally like it better than Watermark. I wonder why with Enya most people tend to say “just more of the same”, while with many other artists/groups who stay within the same genre, they don't. The kind of music Enya makes works for her, and is the kind of music she wants to make, so I don't see the need for her to change her style (not saying that's what you wanted—I expect you to be intelligent enough to just not buy more of her albums if you find them disappointing—but many people do).

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by analogika

That I can agree with.

I knew that one would come back to bite me in the ass!

(And for the record, I don't agree. I think there's lots of variation)

[Briareus]

Fun thread

I run into a lot of supremely talented people, both in the classical and popular music worlds. However, it's hard to pin "musical genius" on any of them like one could with the likes of, say Da Vinci or Edison in the non-musical world. Gershwin and Bernstein are likely candidates, as they were more than genius composers (also conducted and played instruments at the same high level as their compositions).

A couple people have crossed my path that have really impressed me: I had a music theory teacher that could sight-reduce orchestral scores to two-hand piano in any key or MODE. Damn scary. Also, I have a colleague at a local opera company who has some frighteningly amazing talent: he's conducted opera rehearsals while singing EVERY part (regardless of language) and provided piano accompaniment for 50 different arias & vocalists in one day (at a vocal competition). Damn again.

Certainly posessing elements of musical genius, for sure.

[urbatronik]

Björk

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

Dave Brubeck. He changed Jazz man!

He was an important part of West Coast/Cool Jazz, but even more so were Miles Davis, Chet Baker, Stan Getz, Lee Konitz, Gil Evans, etc.

http://www.vervemusicgroup.com/history.aspx?hid=21

[budster101]

He still deserves to be on the list. Again, the thread says name "A" musical genius. Do I have to limit my choices to the obvious ones? I think Brubeck is better in his own way, but they also deserve to be on the list. Put them higher on it, I don't care.

On the side: Is Stan Getz related to Leo Getz? (Lethal Weapon 1-4)

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

After re-reading the title of this thread. It doesn't say name the (Greatest) Contemporary Musical Genius, it says, name "A" Contemporary Musical Genius.

I'm resubmitting, Dave Brubeck. It would be a shame not to include him in this list.

He invented 5/4 and 7/4 and other more experimental times in Jazz.

"Dave Brubeck is an American jazz pianist who wrote a number of jazz standards, including "In Your Own Sweet Way" and "The Duke." Brubeck's style ranges from refined to bombastic, showing both his mother's attempts at classical training and his improvisational skills. Much of his music makes use of unusual time signatures; his long-time musical partner, alto saxophonist Paul Desmond, wrote what is arguably the quartet's most famous piece, "Take Five" (which is in 5/4 time). Brubeck experimented with time signatures through much of his career, recording "Pick Up Sticks" in 6/4, "Unsquare Dance" in 7/4, and "Blue Rondo A La Turk" in 9/8, an experimentation begun with his attempts to put music to the odd rhythms generated by various machines around him on his parents' cattle ranch in a small town in the western United States. "Blue Rondo A La Turk" is a play on Mozart's "Rondo alla Turca", and the 9/8 metre of traditional Turkish music, the country in which the band was touring when the tune was written."

Sorry, odd metered jazz tunes are a relative blip in jazz history. Brubeck wasn't alone in odd-metered (Don Ellis is an example). Granted, Brubeck was very popular to mainstream audiences, but he is pretty far down the list of important musicians within jazz history.

Here are some that would be a shoe-in within a list of important musicians within jazz (in no particular order):

- Louis Armstrong
- Miles Davis
- John Coltrane
- Duke Ellington
- Thelonius Monk
- Charles Mingus
- J.J. Johnson
- Freddie Hubbard
- Count Basie
- Wes Montgomery
- Charlie Parker
- Dizzy Gillespie
- Chet Baker
- Clifford Brown

many would argue that most of these musicians were more important than Brubeck.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mojo2

John Coltrane - Why?

If you can't tell us why you think they are geniuses what's the point of even posting?

Please make a case for them if they are as good as you think they are.

I'll make the case for Coltrane, although Stan Kenton would definitely not be on my list...


Coltrane was one of the more influential saxophone players that played with Miles Davis, the records he recorded with Miles stand on their own and a case could be made simply by looking at these records even though Coltrane was a sideman.

However, Coltrane was a pioneer within free jazz, the avant garde, and was known for his "sheets of sound" which represented a shift of emphasis from bebop-based musical lines to a more overall sonic approach (a good example is "A Love Supreme").

Most jazz historians would agree that some of the most influential musicians within jazz were:

- Louis Armstrong
- Duke Ellington
- Miles Davis
- John Coltrane

Each of these musicians were largely responsible for providing the connective tissue for transitions between jazz styles. Armstrong was considered the "inventor" of jazz, Ellington the master of composed music, Miles for being an important part of bebop, cool, and fusion, and Coltrane for being an important part of free and avant-garde (in addition to bebop/hard-bop in the late 50s - 60s).

This scratches the surface... Volumes have been written about Coltrane. Whether you consider jazz important within the overall musical landscape is your opinion (although a strong case can be made), but within jazz Coltrane was definitely a biggy.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

He still deserves to be on the list. Again, the thread says name "A" musical genius. Do I have to limit my choices to the obvious ones? I think Brubeck is better in his own way, but they also deserve to be on the list. Put them higher on it, I don't care.

On the side: Is Stan Getz related to Leo Getz? (Lethal Weapon 1-4)

That's cool that you like him, I have nothing against Brubeck at all... I'm just taking a more academic approach to disputing your claim that he "changed" jazz. It can be argued that all big jazz musicians change jazz in some way (ditto for musicians within other genres), but as far as the textbook and most widely embraced notion of jazz history, Brubeck is a relatively minor blip.

[SOLIDAge]

Noel Gallagher

/thread.

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by besson3c

...However, Coltrane was a pioneer within free jazz, the avant garde, and was known for his "sheets of sound" which represented a shift of emphasis from bebop-based musical lines to a more overall sonic approach (a good example is "A Love Supreme").

Elvin Jones's drumming in A Love Supreme is the purest I've ever felt. The entire album is what its titled.

I was a suburban white punk in the early 80s, going to Detroit to buy alcohol because they didn't give a sh!t back then. We would go to Belle Isle and drink buy the shore and some guy had Coltrane on his jam box while fishing. When he told me it was this album, I stopped drinking and asked him to play it at least twice all the way through. Incredible.

I didn't list Coltrane as a comtemporary genius because I consider "contemporary" as being in my lifetime. He died the year I was born.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by scottiB

Elvin Jones's drumming in A Love Supreme is the purest I've ever felt. The entire album is what its titled.

I was a suburban white punk in the early 80s, going to Detroit to buy alcohol because they didn't give a sh!t back then. We would go to Belle Isle and drink buy the shore and some guy had Coltrane on his jam box while fishing. When he told me it was this album, I stopped drinking and asked him to play it at least twice all the way through. Incredible.

I didn't list Coltrane as a comtemporary genius because I consider "contemporary" as being in my lifetime. He died the year I was born.

I'm not really sure what the criteria are for this thread... there have been several musicians listed who are now dead, and may have died before some of us were born.

Very cool story about discovering Coltrane though

[budster101]

Again, he was a musical genius, and should be on the list with the others.

[scottiB]

woops double post

[budster101]

Here is a list I found compiled on the net, which looks quite familiar to the educated pickings in this thread. I'm impressed.

LOUIS ARMSTRONG
His jazz improvisation's and ambassador of jazz. He brought the world of jazz in to many homes that wouldn't have paid attention, otherwise. Oh yeah, he was a great vocalist, as well.
Portrait of the Artist As A Young Man, 16 Most Requested Songs (all Columbia)

BEACH BOYS
Beneath the lyrics about the sun and cars and girls and adolesence, is a serious side to Brian Wilson's California Dreams. His studio expertise still captivates artists today.
Pet Sounds, Endless Summer, Good Vibrations Box Set (all Capitol)

CHUCK BERRY
He invented the rock and roll dictionary. His guitar licks were copped by the Beach Boys, Beatles and others. His songs, celebrating rock and roll's unlimited fervor, are still a blueprint for all bands today.
Great 28, Chess Box (Both MCA)



BEATLES
Like Elvis, their force is still with us. Changed the face of Rock & Roll in an exhilarting way. With John Lennon & Paul McCartney, they had Rock's greatest songwriters. Their records grew in maturity so fast that we will still marvel at what they accomplished in less than a decade.
Abbey Road, Rubber Soul, Sgt. Pepper's Lonley Heart's Club Band, 1962-66, 1967-70 (all Capitol)



JAMES BROWN
"The Godfather of Soul" He basically invented funk music. And his 50's records were a forerunner of vocalists to come, from Otis Redding on.
Star Time (Polydor)

RAY CHARLES
Soul music as we know it today came through the fingers of this genius. Combining gospel, blues, jazz and country, Brother Ray's reach knew no end.
Modern Sounds of Country and Western Music, Genius & Soul:50th Anniversary Collection (Both Rhino)


BING CROSBY
Before Sinatra, there was Bing. Brought a new style of singing in to the pop culture. More masculine, less wimpy. It's a style that Sinatra and others took and ran with.
Greatest Hits (MCA)

MILES DAVIS
Innovation. That was Miles. From Bebop to group playing to free-form to jazz-rock-fusion. He always moved on. And never look back.
Kind of Blue, Jack Johnson (both Columbia)

BOB DYLAN
The singer/songwriter of all time.
Blonde on Blonde, Highway 61 Revisited, Blood On The Tracks, Biograph (all Columbia)

DUKE ELLINGTON
Could be the Century's most imitated composer. "Exuberant and elegant" is how one writer described Duke's pieces. A special salute, as well, to his long-time composer and arranger Billy Strayhorn.
Essence of (Columbia)

ARETHA FRANKLIN
"The Queen of Soul" Her incredible voice brought a gospel sound to her gritty soul, resulting in a voice whose sound is still being imitated by all female voices today.
Queen of Soul, 30 Greatest Hits (both Atlantic)

GEORGE GERSHWIN
The greatest American composer?


WOODY GUTHRIE
The most influential artist of the Folk revival of the 60's.
Asch Recordings Vol. 1 (Smithsonian/Folkways)

JIMI HENDRIX
Not only one of the most influential and important but, perhaps, the greatest guitarist ever.
Are You Experienced?, Axis:Bold As Love, Electric Ladyland, Blues, Experience Hendrix (All MCA)

BILLIE HOLIDAY
The Greatest Jazz Vocalist Ever? Billie's genius was getting to the heart of a song. Her life was the song.
Essence of Billie Holiday (Columbia)

MICHAEL JACKSON
In my introduction, I stated that my choices must have had a cultural impact. And Michael did. With Thriller he has the biggest selling album of all time. A sound and style that was copied by numerous musicians in the 80's. With the Jackson 5, he and his brothers' were just as influential in the 70's and beyond. After all the jokes and suspicions have subsided (some Michael's fault, I agree), we are left with the music. And it will outlast all the nonsense.
Thriller, Off The Wall (both Epic), Jackson 5 - Ultimate Collection (Motown)

ROBERT JOHNSON
He only recorded 29 songs. But it's those songs and the legend that they've brought, that have made him the most identifiable Delta bluesman ever.
The Complete Recordings (Columbia)

MADONNA
Doing it her way. Throughout her career, she has upset feminists, even while rewriting the book on feminism in the 80's and 90's; and oh yeah, made some of the great pop hits of the 80's and 90's. All the while, shamelessly playing to the media. Why the word icon was invented.
Immaculate Collection (Sire)

BOB MARLEY
Reggae's greatest superstar. His songs of faith and hope and anti-violence rang with an honesty that is still felt in the rock musicians that he inspired.
Legend, Songs Of Freedom (both Island)

JONI MITCHELL
The most influential female singer/songwriter ever. It's hard to look at a female with a guitar, singing their own songs on stage, and not think of Joni Mitchell. If anything, her net has only grown wider.
Hits, Blue, Court and Spark (all Reprise)

CHARLIE PARKER
His mastery of be-bop and improvisation influenced every jazz artist that came after him. From Miles to Coltrane and many musicians, forward.
Ultimate (Rhino)

COLE PORTER
Was he the greatest songwriter of the 20th Century? Could be risque and funny all in the same song.


ELVIS PRESLEY
Author Peter Guralnick wrote it best, "The world was not ready for Elvis Presley. The violence of its reaction to him ("unspeakably untalented") more than testified to this. Other rock & rollers had a clearer focus to their music. But Elvis had the moment. He hit like a Pan American flash, and the reverberations still linger from the shock of his arrival." In other words, the King of Rock & Roll.
Sun Sessions, Top Ten Hits, 68 TV Special, From Elvis In Memphis, King of Rock & Roll Box Set (All RCA)

PRINCE
Took the funk of James Brown, the outrageousness of P-Funk and the recorded genius of Sly Stone and took it to new heights of originiality in the 80's. His sound dominated the 80's.
Dirty Mind, Sign O' The Times, Purple Rain, The Hits/B-Sides

JIMMIE RODGERS
"The Father of Country Music", Rodgers combined blues and folk and old-timey music to create Country Music as we used to know it.
Influenced everyone from Merle Haggard to Bob Dylan.
Essential (RCA) and First Sessions 1927-28 (Rounder)

ROLLING STONES
The greatest Rock & Roll Band Ever, The Stones took their Blues learnings and rebellious attitude and influenced countless rock bands.
Aftermath, Let It Bleed, Beggars Banquet, Hot Rocks (all ABKCO) Exile On Main Street, Rewind (both Rolling Stones Records)

FRANK SINATRA
One of the greatest singers ever. It's his love of his craft, (singing and recording) that will have as lasting an impact as his legend.
Songs For Swingin' Lovers, In The Wee Small Hours Of The Morning, Capitol Years Box Set (all Capitol)

MUDDY WATERS
The greatest of all bluesman. His Chicago blues influenced all the British Invasion rock bands of the 60's. A commanding singer and presence.
The Chess Box, (Chess), Blues Sky (Epic)

HANK WILLIAMS
Country Music's greatest star and songwriter. His presence still haunts Music City.
40 Greatest Hits (Polydor)

STEVIE WONDER
His do-it-all-by-myself studio work and hybrid of African rhythms and pop savvy were the highlight of his still-influential 70's albums)
Song Review, Original Musiquarium, Innervisions, Talking Book, Fulfillingness' First Finale and Songs In The Key Of Life (All Motown)

A list of other notables is also given by this person.

[dav]

Originally Posted by budster101

Here is a list I found compiled on the net, which looks quite familiar to the educated pickings in this thread.

and i was just going to say robert johnson.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

Again, he was a musical genius, and should be on the list with the others.

In light of everything I've said, why do you say he is a musical genius?

[budster101]

It's my opinion?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

It's my opinion?

That's cool... maybe I'm just confused as to the objective of this thread then. I thought we were to justify our opinions with some sort of musical/academic rationale (like the excellent list you posted).

[budster101]

You seem to be an expert. I'm only an amateur at best, as I only listen to music. I viewed your website and am incredibly impressed. Why don't you do this; Explain to me all of Brubeck's accomplishments and then express to me why he shouldn't be in such good company?

Do you think Elvis should be on the list? It is on the one I posted. Why not DB?

Just curious.
Dave Brubeck brought Jazz to my life as he was the first I discovered, and realized why and how this man made Jazz more avaible to uninitiated listeners such as myself.