[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by BRussell

I have to say that, as much as I loved zigzag, I don't think we should diminish what he did. What he did was illegal, and wrong. We are all sinners, so we should all have compassion. But we shouldn't act like what he did was OK.

And you know what he did how? Has he confided in you? Or are you judge and jury rolled in one?
Nobody knows the facts. There are allegations, but that's all.

[Kevin]

Mastrap true, but lets not be naive for the purpose of being naive.

[Mastrap]

I know and I agree. But let's also not take accusations as facts. (Not that I think you did.)

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Mastrap true, but lets not be naive for the purpose of being naive.

[christ]

Originally Posted by BRussell

It's not OK to spy on people without their consent, especially when it's children, it's sexual in nature, and it's recorded on video.

I didn't ask if it were OK (IK agree that it is not), I asked how the unknowing 'models' were victims.

Originally Posted by Kevin

If you were being video of say taking a shower, and someone put it on a web page of those that are obsessed at watching people take showers. And you didn't know about it. You will still be a victim.

I agree - but then it is the publication that makes the victim, not the photography. (although I know that they are interrelated).

But I have, and had, no intention of condoning illicit photography, I was intrigued by the concept of 'victimhood' expressed by f1000.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I know and I agree. But let's also not take accusations as facts. (Not that I think you did.)

I don't think people are taking these allegations as fact. I, for one, am only expressing my disagreement with the people who want to make light of these allegations and who think that posting about them here is not warranted.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by Randman

You read the police reports?

The articles clearly state that zigzag was filming girls upskirt. He certainly wasn't just videotaping girls having fun at, say, a daughter's birthday party. Where's your common sense?

Originally Posted by Randman

Saying you're glad that a person is dead is about as grotesque as someone saying pedophiliac tendencies are an antiquated societal mindset, in my book.

I couldn't disagree with you more, Randman. In fact, I'd call you a liar if you claimed that you wouldn't be happy to see Osama's head on a platter.

IF zigzag had been found guilty of pedophilia, then he wouldn't have had much of a life left to live. The guy was 49 already. If his death gives comfort to any of his victims, then he would have done the world a much greater good than by simply rotting away in prison. I, for one, see redemption in his final act of contrition.

When we're young, we can afford to make mistakes. As we get older, we lose that most precious commodity: time. Zigzag knew that he made a mistake that he could never recover from. Instead of making life miserable for himself and everyone around him, he chose to take a more honorable way out. Like I said, IF he's guilty, then I'm glad that he saved himself, his family, and us the trouble of prosecuting him. At least now he can bequeath his assets to the victims and his own relatives instead of blowing it all on a defense team.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Whatever zigzag did or didn’t do, the real injustice is that it was revealed here on a public forum. Because we may know others in this forum on a first name basis, isn’t a licence that says, “Oh yeah, in the even of my being charged with a serious crime, and/or my untimely demise, feel free to wreck my anonymity and splash my personal business all over the forums to discuss as if it were just another silly picture thread.” These were private details of a real person’s life that he had the right not to have betrayed for open discussion here, whatever he may or may not have done.

Yeah, people are curious. So freakin’ what. That doesn’t trump a person’s right to privacy, regardless of their being alive or not.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by christ

I didn't ask if it were OK (IK agree that it is not), I asked how the unknowing 'models' were victims.



I agree - but then it is the publication that makes the victim, not the photography. (although I know that they are interrelated).

But I have, and had, no intention of condoning illicit photography, I was intrigued by the concept of 'victimhood' expressed by f1000.

Do you think that a person who videotapes or photographs up the skirt of young girls is not doing it for a sexual reason? "Victim" may not be the right word here but they were definitely violated.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Double Post

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Whatever zigzag did or didn’t do, the real injustice is that it was revealed here on a public forum. Because we may know others in this forum on a first name basis, isn’t a licence that says, “Oh yeah, in the even of my being charged with a serious crime, and/or my untimely demise, feel free to wreck my anonymity and splash my personal business all over the forums to discuss as if it were just another silly picture thread.” These were private details of a real person’s life that he had the right not to have betrayed for open discussion here, whatever he may or may not have done.

Yeah, people are curious. So freakin’ what. That doesn’t trump a person’s right to privacy, regardless of their being alive or not.

I disagree. The internet is not as anonymous as many people think. The people posting here have real names, jobs, and lives. They do not have an unalienable right to not have freely available, public information posted here. It was public information that was posted, not something told to someone in confidence. In addition, the information is relevant to this topic for two reasons:

1) Donations are being made in his name

2) People have a right to know this about a person they assumed was a "great guy" on these forums (in light of the allegations against him, a misleading online persona)

After reading through the posts before the linked news articles I thought "How sad - he seemed like a really cool guy". After reading the news articles, my opinion changed dramatically.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I disagree. The internet is not as anonymous as many people think. The people posting here have real names, jobs, and lives. They do not have an unalienable right to freely available, public information not being posted here. It was public information that was posted, not something told to someone in confidence.

Sorry, I don’t buy that. Unless his name was known here publicly to all, it was and is his private information, and should not have been revealed under these circumstances. Correct me if I’m wrong, and if zigzag ever revealed his full name and identity to the forum publicly. I didn't see his name revealed in the donation links. To my knowledge he wasn’t a public figure or a celebrity, and has rights as private citizen to his anonymity. This isn’t a courtroom or a news agency, it’s a public forum. I believe he and his family had/have the right to deal with personal matters privately or with legit authorities, not have them discussed like a gossip topic on a message board.

Forgive me for that angering me, but frankly I’m amazed at the somewhat cavalier attitude about it.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Just as I am amazed at the cavalier attitude of people regarding these allegations. If this was to be kept private between his family and close friends, they are the only ones who should have known of his passing. The fact that a thread was started here made it public.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

How do we jump from knowing of his passing to discussing allegations against him that are none of ANY of our business? By this logic, let’s just post his credit card numbers. After all, if it was his wish or his family's for those to remain private blah de blah…

[f1000]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Sorry, I don’t buy that. Unless his name was known here publicly to all, it was and is his private information, and should not have been revealed under these circumstances. Correct me if I’m wrong, and if zigzag ever revealed his full name and identity to the forum publicly. I didn't see his name revealed in the donation links. To my knowledge he wasn’t a public figure or a celebrity, and has rights as private citizen to his anonymity. This isn’t a courtroom or a news agency, it’s a public forum. I believe he and his family had/have the right to deal with personal matters privately or with legit authorities, not have them discussed like a gossip topic on a message board.

I hate to break it to you, but the police are probably perusing this board even as we speak. His posts here may very well be used as evidence in a criminal investigation.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by f1000

I hate to break it to you, but the police are probably perusing this board even as we speak. His posts here may very well be used as evidence in a criminal investigation.

Right, and while they were at it, I’m sure they’d post their findings here for all to read, because after all, it’s any of our business.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

How do we jump from knowing of his passing to discussing allegations against him that are none of ANY of our business? By this logic, let’s just post his credit card numbers. After all, if it was his wish or his family's for those to remain private blah de blah…

My point is that his passing is a private matter between his family and close friends - not members of this forum. It's a chain of events, all linked to each other. By making his passing public here it led to someone putting his real name in Google and discovering public information about him. The information that was posted regarding the allegations was not private, it was publicly available.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

My point is that his passing is a private matter between his family and close friends - not members of this forum. It's a chain of events, all linked to each other. By making his passing public here it led to someone putting his real name in Google and discovering public information about him. The information that was posted regarding the allegations was not private, it was publicly available.

Is this really so difficult to fathom?
Someone put his real name into google because zigzag revealed it to them IN CONFIDENCE. As I said, unless his name was known here publicly to all. I could google your name if I knew it, and perhaps reveal information here about you. What difference does it make if you’re alive or not? It’d be uncalled for if it was against your wishes.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Is this really so difficult to fathom?
Someone put his real name into google because zigzag revealed it to them IN CONFIDENCE. As I said, unless his name was known here publicly to all. I could google your name if I knew it, and perhaps reveal information here about you. What difference does it make if you’re alive or not? It’d be uncalled for if it was against your wishes.

A discussion worthy of it's own thread I think.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...44#post2661244

[OreoCookie]

I feel people do have a right to keep private matters private. The fact the beans were spilled here doesn't make a difference. You can blame many, the paper for including the full name, the internet, whatnot. To make private information public under inappropriate circumstances doesn't mean it's now `ok' to freely talk about it. With probably one or two exceptions, nobody really knew that guy from anything other than his posts here, myself included.

So if you want to talk about those matters, do it in an abstract fashion. He's dead. And I might sound cynical for saying so, his legal problems, including all implications with regard to potential victims, are solved. The topic, the investigation, the allegations are all dead.

And I think if there's nothing else to contribute to this thread, I think it's dead as well. Let it rest in peace. Let him rest in peace.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by christ

I didn't ask if it were OK (IK agree that it is not), I asked how the unknowing 'models' were victims.

Because their privacy was invaded and recorded without their consent.

[ThinkInsane]

After I just got done explaining that I had mixed feelings on closing this thread, I now think it should be. We, myself included, are speculating on things we don't know, that we have very little information on, and quite frankly, I think it's inappropriate (you are free to disagree with me on that) and somewhat disrespectful, not to zigzag, I think people have a right to judge a man's character based on his actions, but to his family that may well be reading this thread and probably have no wish to see such allegations reach yet another medium. The man has passed on, his reasons were his own, and we have no right to speculate as to why.

If you'd like to debate the topic of accusations, voyeurism of others (whether child or adult) or any of the other topics brought up in this thread, please do so in another thread, and show the courtesy of being generic in your discussions as was mentioned above.

[ghporter]

It seems to me that there was a member of these forum who called himself zigzag and displayed a thoughful, urbane wit and a droll sense of humor. And there was this man named Andrew who had some legal problems and ultimately took his life.

Originally Posted by christ

This thread is a prime example of what happens to the internet when you let the real world in.

The real world sucks.

I agree with Chris completely. We here are generally two different people; the people we are in the real world, and the people we would like to be to others online. We were discussing a member named zigzag, who is no longer with us through circumstances that have nothing to do with MacNN. I think we should stick to that.

[Xeo]

I'll get the last word in. The donations are at $177 ($185 minus the fees PayPal took). If anyone still wishes to donate, please do so.