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"I'm not a computer person"
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besson3c
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Dec 28, 2008, 04:35 PM
 
Does this expression ever irritate you, slightly?

I understand completely the idea of people not being able to learn everything, time constraints, choosing what to focus their time on, the idea that we all trust other people for their expertise (such as our car mechanic, etc.). However, sometimes when I hear this expression I can't help thinking that it really translates to "that is too hard for me", or "I can't do that".

I also understand that we each have our strengths and weaknesses, but this just means that some of us are more likely to achieve excellence in certain areas of strength. If time were no object, we are all capable of learning the basics of just about anything. Why is it that many people that say this seem unwilling or uninterested in learning the basics of computers?

This returns full circle to time constraints, but what about people that spend enough time with a computer to make it in their best interest to learn the basics? I honestly think that some people spend more time flailing about and trying to contact a friend or call in to tech support or something than would be required to simply learn what sorts of questions to Google for to deal with the problem themselves, or at least have a head start in some basic troubleshooting so that when they do reach tech support they don't have to start with vague descriptions like "it's not working", and in the process of going through this entire song and dance waste a whole bunch of their own time.

I can't help thinking that some people are just wimpy and/or constrain themselves by thinking that they can't learn something. If the latter is the case, you could make the case that this is an unhealthy attitude to take with anything, and it shouldn't be coddled.

When people say "I'm not a computer person", do you ever probe a little bit, or at least think about what this really means? Does anything here resonate with anybody?
     
turtle777
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Dec 28, 2008, 04:48 PM
 
A rant about nothing. Gotta love it.

Seriously, I don't get the issue.

Some people are interested in tech stuff, and will go out of their way to teach themselves new skills in that area. Others don't. Tel Aviv, as the French say. (yes, yes, I kid, I kid)

-t
     
0157988944
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Dec 28, 2008, 04:48 PM
 
I never ever accept that as an answer. It's just a cop-out. It means "do it for me, or walk me through step by step." Usually, depending on my mood, I take that as an invitation to teach them how to do it and how to figure out how to do something next time, or I tell them I can't help them.
     
turtle777
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Dec 28, 2008, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
I never ever accept that as an answer. It's just a cop-out.
This, as a general statement, is BS.

I'm glad that I have friends who are NOT computer geeks, but are geeks in other fields (law, biology, medicine etc.).

I can help them with computer needs, they help me with other areas of interest.

-t
     
ghporter
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Dec 28, 2008, 04:57 PM
 
I see this as a real issue. It's almost always an issue with people who ask ME for help with their computers because they goobered them up, but good. "I'm not a computer person, and I don't know why my computer is so very slow lately, and all these windows keep popping up and getting in my way and all..." Yeah, it's 'cause you've been surfing all sorts of "too good to be true" and/or p0rn sites, and you of course didn't get any sort of virus protection for your Windows computer...

But it's also a thing with people who let themselves believe that computers are beyond them. Holy chrome! I think that if you can read and comprehend most simple comic pages then you could, if you tried even just a little, learn to do anything you wanted with a computer, Mac or Windows.

Turtle, I don't disagree with you, but I do disagree with how much "out of the way" it takes to learn how to do simple stuff like surf and send and receive email. People who don't try CANNOT learn how to do for themselves.

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turtle777
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Dec 28, 2008, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Turtle, I don't disagree with you, but I do disagree with how much "out of the way" it takes to learn how to do simple stuff like surf and send and receive email. People who don't try CANNOT learn how to do for themselves.
Well, there are people that are outright lazy and refuse to learn, and take advantage of others.

The problem is, many geeks just consider everyone below their level of expertise to fall in that category. That's just plain wrong.

Also, many geeks underestimate the time it takes for "regular people" to learn tech related stuff. They view and judge everyone by their own standards, w/o being aware of the level of their own skills and aptitude. They don't realize that they are tech "gifted", and that others are not.

-t
     
besson3c  (op)
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Dec 28, 2008, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
This, as a general statement, is BS.

I'm glad that I have friends who are NOT computer geeks, but are geeks in other fields (law, biology, medicine etc.).

I can help them with computer needs, they help me with other areas of interest.

-t

What if they help you with the same things over and over again and you use the "I'm not a law/biology/medicine" excuse each time, hypothetically speaking? It's not always as simple as you are making it out to be, at least with the relationships I've had.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Dec 28, 2008, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, there are people that are outright lazy and refuse to learn, and take advantage of others.

The problem is, many geeks just consider everyone below their level of expertise to fall in that category. That's just plain wrong.

Also, many geeks underestimate the time it takes for "regular people" to learn tech related stuff. They view and judge everyone by their own standards, w/o being aware of the level of their own skills and aptitude. They don't realize that they are tech "gifted", and that others are not.

-t

You are right, this exists, but I tried to be very careful in my original post to demonstrate my understanding of this. However, whether or not the geek is well-grounded in his/her understanding of this, these attitudes still prevail. You don't think there is some sort of balance between learning what you can and coming up with excuses?
     
besson3c  (op)
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Dec 28, 2008, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by adamfishercox View Post
I never ever accept that as an answer. It's just a cop-out. It means "do it for me, or walk me through step by step." Usually, depending on my mood, I take that as an invitation to teach them how to do it and how to figure out how to do something next time, or I tell them I can't help them.
Sometimes it is a cop out, but figuring out how to point this out or deal with this gracefully is definitely a tricky thing to do!
     
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Dec 28, 2008, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Does this expression ever irritate you, slightly?
I'd have to say that more often than not, the comment "I'm not a computer person" is directly related to a problem they're hoping I can get them through. What they're saying in essence is; "please be as patient with me as you'd be with an 8 yr old as that is my level of understanding this technology." It doesn't irritate me at all. I've been there and am still learning a great deal.
ebuddy
     
ort888
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Dec 28, 2008, 06:12 PM
 
My wife says the same thing about people who can't cook.

I don't know. People do what interests them. For most a computer is a tool to check some numbers or send an email or whatever. And beyond that they could care less.

I have an interest in computers and computing, so I tend to try and take it a few steps past most people. I don't have any interest in cars, and therefore I can barely do more then change a tire. Some people would mock me for that, but in life we only have enough time to really invest ourselves in so many things.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
DeathToWindows
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Dec 28, 2008, 06:26 PM
 
Ok, quick backstory first - I've been working as a research assistant in a psychology lab at Vanderbilt since graduating university in may of this year, which means that in addition to the various dogsbody-type tasks that an RA has to do, I'm also first-line tech support for my lab. Fortunately, its a mostly-mac establishment (hordes of matlab and psychophysics toolbox users, etc), so the support issues are usually fairly easy to resolve...

However, out of the eight lab members (a decently large lab for a vision / psychology lab), one of them is exceedingly fond of the OP's phrase - however, when you're a graduate student in a lab that does psychophysics (e.g. program your experiment in Matlab and be able to fix it when it dies) and fMRI (where it really helps to be able to do everything short of running the scanner - all of which is computerized), the aforementioned attitude is really not useful. There is a difference between "I'm not a computer person" and "can you please sort this out for me, I'm trying to get revisions in / deal with my committee / keep the undergrads from eating all my time" - in essence, you cannot be in my field without being a computer person.

As the observant reader may have noticed, I'm not overly fond of the person in question - everyone else who I do tech support for wants to learn how I'm fixing their problem (so they can do it in future); the grad student in question seems to be categorically incapable of learning new technological skills. In essence, if you're not technically inclined at some substantial level, vision research is distinctly not the field for you (I should also note that irritating your labmates, subjects and adviser are also deeply stupid ideas - as everyone in the field knows each other...).

That being said, outside my immediate field, it would be less of an issue - but in my field, it's the equivalent of saying "I don't want to do my job - I want you to do it for me."

Gnnn.

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Chuckit
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Dec 28, 2008, 06:43 PM
 
Besson is talking about willfully ignorant people. I'd never blame somebody for knowing less than I do — after all, I did too at some point — but that doesn't mean you get to turn your brain off. If I've explained something simple to you five times, I expect you to at least be able to demonstrate that you listened. But a lot of people don't.

For example, I knew one person who would try to attach more files than our mail server can accept, and every day she'd call me and yell, "Hey, my mail can't send out! Help!" I'd just walk down and read out loud the dialog that was on her screen and she'd go, "Oh, I didn't know that. I'm not a computer person, tee-hee!" I was like, "Are you a READING person? Or even a LEARNING person?"

I don't blame people for not being able to fix a corrupt LaunchServices database or whatever, but there's a certain (very low) level of competence — or at least willingness to learn — that you need to have if you want to do a task. I'm not a mechanic, but I don't blindly stab my keys at the dashboard and then call my mechanically inclined friend to cry about how my car won't start and I'm just not a car person.
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Big Mac
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Dec 28, 2008, 07:19 PM
 
Some people just aren't very computer compatible. I know that there are limits to my computer abilities, so it isn't much of a stretch to realize that some people have difficulty with just basic usage. On the other hand, one of my family members who isn't that tech savvy mentioned that he uses Firefox at work. That was a surprise to me.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
DeathToWindows
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Dec 28, 2008, 07:28 PM
 
From my point of view, the unwillingness to learn is the big issue for me - to put it bluntly, ignorance is readily curable, parasitic stupidity is not (e.g., if someone's dependent on me because they don't know something yet, that's fine - if they've been taught [and retaught if necessary] but haven't learned anything and are content to make me do their job for them, that qualifies as a problem).

I don't expect everyone in the lab to have a working understanding of the HASP licensing system we have for certain software - but I do expect them to know how to reboot the dedicated HASP server if I walk them through it over the phone...

Don't try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.
     
FireWire
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Dec 28, 2008, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Besson is talking about willfully ignorant people. I'd never blame somebody for knowing less than I do — after all, I did too at some point — but that doesn't mean you get to turn your brain off. If I've explained something simple to you five times, I expect you to at least be able to demonstrate that you listened. But a lot of people don't.

For example, I knew one person who would try to attach more files than our mail server can accept, and every day she'd call me and yell, "Hey, my mail can't send out! Help!" I'd just walk down and read out loud the dialog that was on her screen and she'd go, "Oh, I didn't know that. I'm not a computer person, tee-hee!" I was like, "Are you a READING person? Or even a LEARNING person?"

I don't blame people for not being able to fix a corrupt LaunchServices database or whatever, but there's a certain (very low) level of competence — or at least willingness to learn — that you need to have if you want to do a task. I'm not a mechanic, but I don't blindly stab my keys at the dashboard and then call my mechanically inclined friend to cry about how my car won't start and I'm just not a car person.
This post reflects pretty much my opinion on the matter.

Especially in 2008. The lame excuses were valid maybe 10 years ago, but tabarnak, computers have been everywhere for over 10 years now! There are simply no excuses for not knowing basic things, especially if that has been explained to them already and/or the procedure is easily found on the web or in the effing manual! I'm not a cook, but I have two eyes and two hands: I can read a recipe and get started. Coincidence, that's also what's required to operate a computer!
     
ghporter
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Dec 28, 2008, 09:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire View Post
This post reflects pretty much my opinion on the matter.

Especially in 2008. The lame excuses were valid maybe 10 years ago, but tabarnak, computers have been everywhere for over 10 years now!
I had this feeling about 10 years ago... I'd been using computers for OVER 10 years by then, and while I was not yet able to afford one myself, I could see how ubiquitous they were, even then. And I'm not talking about mainframes or minicomputers like VAX machines, but desktop computers, including Macs (introduced 23+ years ago) as well as PCs.

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BoingoBongo
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Dec 28, 2008, 10:18 PM
 
About a year ago, someone asked me if I had an email address, and I told them I did. Then they said I, "looked like the type that would have a computer."
     
finboy
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Dec 28, 2008, 10:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I see this as a real issue. It's almost always an issue with people who ask ME for help with their computers because they goobered them up, but good. "I'm not a computer person, and I don't know why my computer is so very slow lately, and all these windows keep popping up and getting in my way and all..." Yeah, it's 'cause you've been surfing all sorts of "too good to be true" and/or p0rn sites, and you of course didn't get any sort of virus protection for your Windows computer...

But it's also a thing with people who let themselves believe that computers are beyond them. Holy chrome! I think that if you can read and comprehend most simple comic pages then you could, if you tried even just a little, learn to do anything you wanted with a computer, Mac or Windows.

Turtle, I don't disagree with you, but I do disagree with how much "out of the way" it takes to learn how to do simple stuff like surf and send and receive email. People who don't try CANNOT learn how to do for themselves.
Just remember Mel's Law of Free Computing Support:

If you so much as touch someone's computer, all problems occurring from that point forward are your fault and/or responsibility. The strength of this feeling on the part of the computer owner varies directly with the depth of their ignorance (regardless of your actual actions, knowledge or ability).

Qualify that however you want to, but my wife and I (she's the Mel) have found it to be true all the way back to the TRS80 Model 1.

Same goes for fixing cars for people. If you touch it, whatever happens is because of you. That's the original Hilton's Law (because my hometown mechanic Smokey Hilton always complained about it, and didn't fix cars for people he didn't like or know otherwise).
     
Gankdawg
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Dec 28, 2008, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
My wife says the same thing about people who can't cook.
Me too. Hearing someone saying they can't cook is like hearing someone say they are illiterate.
     
Chuckit
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Dec 28, 2008, 11:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gankdawg View Post
Me too. Hearing someone saying they can't cook is like hearing someone say they are illiterate.
How so? It's not like they teach you cooking in preschool at age 4.
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Gankdawg
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Dec 29, 2008, 12:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
How so? It's not like they teach you cooking in preschool at age 4.
If you can read a recipe, you can cook.
     
sek929
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Dec 29, 2008, 01:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gankdawg View Post
If you can read a recipe, you can cook.
If you can read English you'd still be baffled by a computer manual. Computers require a hefty amount of new vocabulary to fully understand. Recipes are written in plain english, using terms you've should have learned in grade school.
     
Chuckit
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Dec 29, 2008, 01:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gankdawg View Post
If you can read a recipe, you can cook.
Not necessarily. Many recipes suck, ovens differ, etc. Also, reading a recipe is an entirely different matter from figuring out what it means when it says "caramelize the onions."
( Last edited by Chuckit; Dec 29, 2008 at 01:43 AM. )
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@pplejaxkz
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Dec 29, 2008, 01:52 AM
 
I do get this statement everyday at work at least once. And yes sometimes it is a little annoying, but nothing to the extent that it would bother me, I'm used to being the family tech support. They're only hurting themselves anyways, computers aren't going anywhere.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Dec 29, 2008, 05:20 AM
 
So, what do you guys do? Do you try to point out gently to the person that they are copping out? Do you work for these people tirelessly without saying a word? How do you approach this?
     
TETENAL
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Dec 29, 2008, 05:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Not necessarily. Many recipes suck, ovens differ, etc. Also, reading a recipe is an entirely different matter from figuring out what it means when it says "caramelize the onions."
http://www.ehow.com/how_12751_caramelize-onions.html
     
Chuckit
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Dec 29, 2008, 06:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, what do you guys do? Do you try to point out gently to the person that they are copping out? Do you work for these people tirelessly without saying a word? How do you approach this?
The same way I reward all behavior — I gravitate toward people I like and shove everyone else down on the priority list. If I know somebody isn't going to waste my time, I'll offer it much more freely. With some people, being on the naughty list (and thus being forced to stew in their self-induced ignorance) is enough to make them shape up and listen to simple instructions. Will it stop the really stubborn folks? No. But at least this way I have to deal with them less.

BTW, @TETENAL: I actually know what caramelizing onions is. But the first time I read a recipe that required me to do that, I was like, "Put the what in the who?" There are a lot of cooking terms that aren't really "common English" per se. It's not rocket surgery, but it's easy to make noob mistakes.
( Last edited by Chuckit; Dec 29, 2008 at 06:24 AM. )
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Dec 29, 2008, 06:16 AM
 
I'm not a science person.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Dec 29, 2008, 07:37 AM
 
Whilst I dislike it when somebody is being wilfully ignorant (or ‘being stupid’, as I call it), I also do know a number of people who are not technically minded, at all. I also know people who have no sense or knowledge of æsthetics, time and motion efficiency, meditation skills, colour theory, general semantics, et cetera. I know people who understand abstract art but cannot appreciate techne or classical representative artwork. I regularly encounter people who sit at a computer screen all day but cannot do anything with it other than e-mail, surf, enter data into Excel, and type letters in Word.

If a person does not see a concrete, immediate reason for properly fixing a skill deficiency, she usually won’t bother to do anything about it. Human nature (or ‘fricking laziness’, as I call it).
     
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Dec 29, 2008, 08:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Does this expression ever irritate you, slightly?
No, not in the least, we all have differing skills, abilities and priorities.

The same can be said for a car person. I'm not a car person, I have no desire to learn about the inner workings of a fuel injection engine. Does that mean auto mechanics or other gear heads get irritated when I ask for help on my car? No, they're generally quite helpful.
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Dec 29, 2008, 09:27 AM
 
I don't have time to become an expert on every single thing in my environment. I don't expect others to, either.

They pay me for my expert services; I pay others for theirs.

I fail to see your problem.


Edit: Actually, that was a little flippant.
I really cannot fault, and am not annoyed by, people who just can't. They're generally genuinely interested in working with content, and ideal Apple customers in the sense that they're extremely grateful at discovering or having explained to them that the Mac is something that they can *understand*, because it is built to be understood and used by THEM.
I usually tell customers that if there's something they find confusing or don't get about using the Mac, it's not because they're stupid; it's because somebody screwed up - and it wasn't them.

I find that "I'm not a computer person" doesn't really apply so much to Mac OS X, because the system - and the help menu - is BUILT around "non-computer people".

And I've yet to find an "I'm-not-a-computer-person" who didn't discover their own power and actually start to have fun exploring their machine, given that bit of technical self-assurance.


A different matter are those people who are willfully ignorant out of an attitude of entitlement. People who exude an air of "I shouldn't have to do this" will pay for service, but they'll usually try to haggle and treat people like ****.
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Dec 29, 2008 at 09:58 AM. )
     
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Dec 29, 2008, 10:01 AM
 
My brother is an automotive engineer. Sits at a computer all day doing amazing stuff. Take him away from his design software (CATIA) and he can barely use email. He's got so many other things in his life to fill his time, he just hasn't found the need to become an expert user of computers. I don't see it as laziness at all.
     
Amorya
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Dec 29, 2008, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Some people just aren't very computer compatible. I know that there are limits to my computer abilities, so it isn't much of a stretch to realize that some people have difficulty with just basic usage. On the other hand, one of my family members who isn't that tech savvy mentioned that he uses Firefox at work. That was a surprise to me.
But there are some people who do not read an error message because they think they won't understand it... without having tried!

I think it can be expected that anyone asking me for help has done the following:

1. Read the error message
2. Are there any words or concepts within it that they don't understand? (If so, tell me "It says ___ but I don't understand ___").
3. Does the message say what to do to solve the problem? (Again, if it says what to do but they don't understand how to do that, that's fine.)

Yes, not everyone has our ability. Recently I was having problems with ScummVM, so I went and asked in the IRC channel, giving a stack trace and the line number of the error. They sent me back some source modifications, I recompiled and it worked. Not everyone could do that, and I wouldn't blame someone for having no clue how to compile things. But if they're complaining that they can't print, and the printer window is open on their screen and says "Out of paper", then I have no sympathy.
What the nerd community most often fail to realize is that all features aren't equal. A well implemented and well integrated feature in a convenient interface is worth way more than the same feature implemented crappy, or accessed through a annoying interface.
     
Amorya
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Dec 29, 2008, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Maflynn View Post
No, not in the least, we all have differing skills, abilities and priorities.

The same can be said for a car person. I'm not a car person, I have no desire to learn about the inner workings of a fuel injection engine. Does that mean auto mechanics or other gear heads get irritated when I ask for help on my car? No, they're generally quite helpful.
But it's a requirement of the driving test (in the UK at least) that you know some basic maintenance: how to check oil, coolant and break fluid levels, tire tread depth, how to add washer fluid, how to check the handbrake for excessive wear.

Knowing how to do these does not make you a "car person". They're just the basics that everyone should be expected to do if they want to use a car.

Likewise with computers: knowing how to search for documents, connect a USB device, basic online safety etc: these are the things that everyone should know.

Amorya
What the nerd community most often fail to realize is that all features aren't equal. A well implemented and well integrated feature in a convenient interface is worth way more than the same feature implemented crappy, or accessed through a annoying interface.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Dec 29, 2008, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Amorya View Post
But there are some people who do not read an error message because they think they won't understand it... without having tried!
I find that this is Windows conditioning.

Once people get wise to the fact that the Mac will only throw up a dialog box if there's something they really need to know or decide, and that it will always tell them what they need to know, that stops being an issue.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Dec 29, 2008, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Besson is talking about willfully ignorant people. I'd never blame somebody for knowing less than I do — after all, I did too at some point — but that doesn't mean you get to turn your brain off. If I've explained something simple to you five times, I expect you to at least be able to demonstrate that you listened. But a lot of people don't.

For example, I knew one person who would try to attach more files than our mail server can accept, and every day she'd call me and yell, "Hey, my mail can't send out! Help!" I'd just walk down and read out loud the dialog that was on her screen and she'd go, "Oh, I didn't know that. I'm not a computer person, tee-hee!" I was like, "Are you a READING person? Or even a LEARNING person?"

I don't blame people for not being able to fix a corrupt LaunchServices database or whatever, but there's a certain (very low) level of competence — or at least willingness to learn — that you need to have if you want to do a task. I'm not a mechanic, but I don't blindly stab my keys at the dashboard and then call my mechanically inclined friend to cry about how my car won't start and I'm just not a car person.
I am going to use your "Are you a LEARNING person?" line when I get back to work. The last job I had I was the head of a small IT support unit. 2.5 guys supporting ~ 75 users plus half that many network printers and 100 VoIP phones. Everything is standardized down to the desktop wallpaper (i.e.: every PC or Mac had the *exact* same configuration, software, applications, etc.) so end-user support was pretty easy as it was mostly dealing with user-created problems. But there were a couple people who were willfully ignorant and continued to make the same mistakes (like exceeding the file-size limit on e-mail attachments) over and over and over again. I tried using Chuckit's method of putting the willfully ignorant at the bottom of our daily support list but that would just lead to increased complaining from the problem users. So, I got harsh with a few of them and wound up getting reprimanded by my boss, twice, for doing so. Calling a user* "stupid" is not the best form of managerial excellence but damned if it isn't an accurate assessment.


*I had one user who was notoriously impatient and would not wait for her Outlook archive to open before trying to use it and it would crash Outlook, naturally corrupting the archive and necessitating the archive be re-built. (Our agency's Exchange servers were centralized in Washington, DC which was 250 miles away. And even thought we had two dedicated DS-3 circuits between our location in NYC and the agency's main data center in Washington, DC, there was always a bit of lag when first launching Outlook and/or opening one's e-mail archive. And, the bigger the Outlook mailbox or archive, the bigger the lag. This users archives was over 12GB in size.) I tried positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, feigned indifference, but nothing got this woman to learn the lesson of patience. So, I took away her access to her archives but eventually she complained loud enough that my boss found out and he made me re-establish her archive access. So, after about six months of almost weekly re-builds of her e-mail archive, my final solution to her problem was to tell her that one time when her archive crashed it was irreparably corrupted and I deleted it. She lost over 42,000 messages from 20+ years of e-mail, but, as she was a person who saved every single e-mail message she ever sent or received, most of it was junk like notices for the annual holiday party in 1996 or alerts about a plumbing leak from early 2000 or the daily e-mail alerts from the local animal rescue league of which she was a member. She got a new archive and I got rid of a months-long headache. Problem solved!
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
d4nth3m4n
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Dec 29, 2008, 05:18 PM
 
how many of you dweeby shutins have said "well, i'm not really a people person"?



e: apparently the thread has evolved to be a conversation about tech support, but i stand by my question
     
Chuckit
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Dec 29, 2008, 05:58 PM
 
I'm not sure that I've ever said that. If I had, it certainly wouldn't be with the subtext "…so I want you to socialize for me."

Also, this thread was always about tech support.
Chuck
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@pplejaxkz
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Dec 29, 2008, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
I'm not a science person.
I'm not a Math person.
     
turtle777
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Dec 29, 2008, 09:53 PM
 
Well, heck, I'm not a person. Period.

However, I could understand the excuse "I'm not a computer turtle".

-t
     
Spheric Harlot
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Dec 30, 2008, 03:54 AM
 
Turtle Logo!

     
hyteckit
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Dec 30, 2008, 04:30 AM
 
Turtle Logo! Sweet. My first programming language back in elementary school on a Apple IIe.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
ebuddy
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Dec 30, 2008, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, what do you guys do? Do you try to point out gently to the person that they are copping out? Do you work for these people tirelessly without saying a word? How do you approach this?
Fear leads to stress reactions which leads otherwise very smart and reasonable people to unreasonable and stupid behavior. People get scared that if they try something themselves and do it wrong, they'll hose it to the point where they'll never get it back to where they were. They literally think they'll break something and the fear of this leaves them to their "stress" reactions which inevitably leads to; "could you just do it for me?". More often than not, particularly In a business environment where firewalls and access rights are such that they can't download their own "solutions", I tell them to feel free to explore, "try" things, etc... there's absolutely nothing they can do to hurt or break the machine by selecting the most apparent option.

You may find that in many cases your victim actually knew what to do, but was still hesitant to just do it. Fear is their problem. They've got to break through. Once they've tried something and it works without your help, they'll feel much more self-sufficient (which is really what 98% of us really want-honestly) and comfortable with that action going forward and in fact with the entire computing experience. BTW, I also remind them that frustration is part of learning. People have to be reminded that their frustration with the machine is perfectly natural and has happened to all of us. It is not their enemy, it is just a tool.

In short, I just remind them if you're trying to do something and it doesn't do what you wanted, simply undo (or change-back) your last action and just try the next most apparent option. In many cases they are actually surprised by how easy it is. When I was training folks command strings in the Nortel DMS 500, it can be very intimidating for them. Their accesses were trimmed to the extent that there is absolutely nothing they could do to a line of service that I couldn't undo. I tell them this just like that. "There is absolutely nothing you can do that I can't undo." They just need to break through the fear. I start by acknowledging and addressing the fear.
ebuddy
     
ghporter
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Dec 30, 2008, 10:08 AM
 
I have to admit that I'm not very human before my first cup of coffee, but I work hard at simulating humanity until the caffeine kicks in.

In my experience (very limited), it seems that people who complain that they're "not computer people" have wanted to express something. Either they are lost and don't know where to start working on the issue, or they are expecting me to do something for them. Looking back, the ones that were lost I eventually categorized into the "I want to learn" group, while the rest seemed to be leeches at the time. Maybe they were, and maybe they were just brought up to expect that certain things were going to be done for them. In contrast, I was brought up to be self-sufficient, so I can and do handle things like laundry, housekeeping, cooking and my own maintenance issues. That includes auto, plumbing, and computer maintenance, by the way.

However, having moved into a completely new professional domain (I'm almost done with a masters program in occupational therapy), I have found that "self sufficient" people are also the group that gets things done in their professional lives. My classmates, all quite young in comparison to me, have been extremely good at handling life's challenges, adapting to new and different work environments, and oh by the way staying ahead of things like laundry and computer issues. I had NO requests for tech support from my classmates, in spite of the fact that I had repeatedly pointed out that my previous career was in electronics and my current degree was in computer science. Maybe this "self sufficient" thing has something to do with it.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Dec 30, 2008, 10:15 AM
 
One of the best things that someone told me about, and that I've put into practice, is that if you have to show someone what to do on a computer get them to do it. They should use the mouse, they should type. Yes it takes more time, but I've found that they retain the information better. I even do this with my parents while using LogMeIn, you can then verify what the 'student' is doing. Even if you don't know where to look for something (in my case when using Vista) I find that the 'student' feels more comfortable knowing that the 'computer person' is there looking over their shoulder, while right clicking or going into the Properties windows etc.
     
sek929
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Dec 30, 2008, 01:05 PM
 
It's always best to learn by doing, which in the case on my 83 year-old grandfather, can be a reeeeaaaal chore.
     
mattyb
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Dec 30, 2008, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
It's always best to learn by doing, which in the case on my 83 year-old grandfather, can be a reeeeaaaal chore.
But at least he wants to be shown. At 83 I'll probably be a drooling wreck. That is, an even more drooling wreck than I am now.
     
subego
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Dec 31, 2008, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I'd just walk down and read out loud the dialog that was on her screen...

Auuuugh!

My (now-ex) business partner would call me in sometimes, and I knew he had to be having a problem because there was a dialog on the screen.

Then he'd gesture at it.

AUUUUUUGGGGHH!
     
hyteckit
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Dec 31, 2008, 05:38 PM
 
I'm not a people person.

I never understood humans.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
   
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