[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

This one I can't agree with. Voodoo had the "daytime soap actor" thing pretty much dead on, and he hasn't managed to sell me on this cult of Apollo the writers seem to want everyone to join. Every time they try to remind us how awesome Lee is, I groan.

Fair enough.

I think I'm just a little easier on Bamber than most because I'm such a big fan of Band of Brothers.

And Roslin/McDonnell seems to be universally disliked by BSG fans. Roslin has annoyed me since the miniseries/pilot and I'm dismayed that she's somehow managed to elude her cancer for so long. (That sounds so horrible... )

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

And Roslin/McDonnell seems to be universally disliked by BSG fans. Roslin has annoyed me since the miniseries/pilot and I'm dismayed that she's somehow managed to elude her cancer for so long. (That sounds so horrible... )

Weird, I'd say 90% of the people I know that watch BSG love her to death.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Is it important whether this is NY or not, plotwise or in any other way? I think not.

Are any of these posts "important" It's a TV show, fer chrissakes.

Edward James Olmos ... Admiral William Adama / ... (63 episodes, 2004-2008)
-- a very underrated actor who manages to carry the entire series on his shoulders, but is arrogantly left out of some episodes by the producers who think they are the ones doing a good job.

Underrated? Dude, he's been nominated for an Oscar. And arrogant? I don't even know how to respond to this one: it's an ensemble show. No one actor is in every episode, and with this many characters the writers need to rotate the characters throughout the season.

Mary McDonnell ... President Laura Roslin / ... (63 episodes, 2004-2008)
-- An actress so bad. . .

Bad? She has two Oscar nominations.

Seriously, I respect your opinions even if I think you're 100% wrong, but it's clear to me you have no idea how TV shows are written, cast or put together. Best to just have your opinions rather than make yourself look stupid(er).

[Luca Rescigno]

I guess if you claim that every actor on a show is bad, you're bound to be correct at least some of the time.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Weird, I'd say 90% of the people I know that watch BSG love her to death.

Yeah I think she's great. I don't always like her or what she does but I don't think that's the acting, she's just sick and weak and stubborn and driven.

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

I guess if you claim that every actor on a show is bad, you're bound to be correct at least some of the time.

I don't really see any bad acting on BSG. I follow story more than acting when I watch TV but bad acting usually sticks out. I totally believe that all the characters are exactly who that appear to be.... none of them seem to be "acting" a part. That's my criteria. I don't expect some full range of emotion in TV characters any more than I expect it in real people. It's not drama class.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

but it's clear to me you have no idea how TV shows are written, cast or put together.

You mean somehow the way a show is written, cast or put together can excuse it from being bad? Noooooooo...

If it's a turd, it's a turd.. no matter how it's made.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I often find myself reminded of Baltar's acting, but I can't really tell if it's bad acting by the actor, or good acting at playing a character who is himself "acting" as a double-agent

[andi*pandi]

I like roslin and the actress, but don't always like the lines/stories given her.

baltar I think is a very complex character, I've definitely seen more than 2 expressions there.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I often find myself reminded of Baltar's acting, but I can't really tell if it's bad acting by the actor, or good acting at playing a character who is himself "acting" as a double-agent

I've always thought of it as part of Baltar's character — he's kind of slimy to begin with, and he's been carrying these deep, dark secrets and following instructions from an imaginary friend for all these years, so he comes across as artificial. If that's just an accident, it's the luckiest case of bad acting I've ever seen, because it's perfect.

[Luca Rescigno]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

I like roslin and the actress, but don't always like the lines/stories given her.

baltar I think is a very complex character, I've definitely seen more than 2 expressions there.

Yeah, I think the fact that Roslin is able to get a major emotional response out of people is indication enough that she's doing her job. She's not a perfect actor, but no one is. She's pretty damn good for TV, and she's very convincing. Sometimes I do think they make her too much of a ruthless backstabber, but remember how gradual the transition has been—early on, she was so pure and wouldn't think to do the stuff she's doing now. She even chose not to steal the election back in season 2 when she could have. Now she refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of pretty much anyone who isn't her. I really think she's gone off the deep end lately, but that's her character, not the actress.

I like Baltar too. I think the writers are doing a good job of creating sympathy for Baltar while making people dislike Roslin. I actually like Baltar now. He seems slightly (slightly) less arrogant than he did in the past, and more clear-headed than a lot of the other characters.

Also I don't like the way they seem to shelve and bring back minor characters for no reason. Gaeta for instance. He has no personality. He's a prop more than anything else. Same can be said for practically all the other minor characters. I wish they'd actually pick one or two to develop and make them major parts of the series. But at this point it's too late to do that... they would have had to do that at least half a season ago. Seems the only character they did that with, really, was Tyrol, who started out as just "the chief" but is now a central character (if a boring one). The rest have faded in and out of the spotlight, never making much of an impact and never being missed (Cally, Dualla, Gaeta, Racetrack, Hotdog, Anders, even Starbuck to some extent).

Oh, and I like Zarek too. He seems to be the most "with it" of all the characters. Not burdened with self-righteousness like Adama and Roslin, but not chronically confused and schizophrenic like Baltar.

[Visnaut]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

You mean somehow the way a show is written, cast or put together can excuse it from being bad? Noooooooo...

If it's a turd, it's a turd.. no matter how it's made.

So remind me again why you still subject yourself to watching it every week?

[andi*pandi]

to torment us.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

If that's just an accident, it's the luckiest case of bad acting I've ever seen, because it's perfect.

Another way to look at it might be that it's the easiest role to play: "your role is to be a terrible actor." For example, it's hard for a good singer to play a tone-deaf role, but it's easy for a tone-deaf person to do.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

to torment us.

you give yourself too much credit

[Luca Rescigno]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

you give yourself too much credit

To torment yourself then?

[ort888]

Roslin is one of my favorite characters, and I think the guy who plays Baltar is the best actor on the show. Or rather, he definitely has one of the toughest roles to play and he pulls it off very well.

You have the big hitters, Adama, Roslin, Six, Baltar, and then somewhat of a dropoff with everyone else. I would say that the people who are good are very good, and the rest of the cast is more then capable, but not up to the same level.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

To torment yourself then?

You read too much into irrelevant things

[Luca Rescigno]

So you enjoy it anyway, but you hate the acting? I can see that. I felt that way about Babylon 5. Campy as hell but it sucked me in like a $50 hooker.

P.S. This isn't the political lounge.

[Uncle Skeleton]

He's just trolling. Don't feed it.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

So you enjoy it anyway, but you hate the acting? I can see that. I felt that way about Babylon 5. Campy as hell but it sucked me in like a $50 hooker.

Pretty much yeah. The strange oscillations of the plot sometimes add insult to injury but mainly it's the acting of the lead actors. There are plenty of decent ones around, but IMO far too many bad ones in high profile roles.

I did enjoy Babylon 5 as well. It was pretty decent, all things considered and had a huge plot arc. When all the pieces fell together in season 5(?) it was cool, campy acting and limited budget aside.

[Luca Rescigno]

I think B5 had more leeway than BSG does because the writing was better. JMS laid out the whole plot beforehand. Obviously he had to come up with plenty of details and he made changes along the way, but it was all laid out. With BSG, I'm sure they had something sort of like that going on, but it seems more like they're making it week to week with only a vague idea of what to do next.

I can put up with bad acting, though, if the story is really compelling. B5 had me at the edge of my seat the whole time. I actually watched the series entirely on DVDs - I never saw the show when it first aired. And it didn't take me long to finish it. The problem with BSG is that the story is hit or miss, so it's luck of the draw whether I'll like an episode or not. The early episodes were so compelling I simply can't tear myself away from the series now, so whenever a bad episode comes along I feel betrayed.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

B5 better than BSG? Bitch please. I have never thought about a show's story so much when it is not on the air... it is almost scary how much I think about the plot and characters. No other show has even ever come close for me and I have seen every star Trek ever made along with every bit of sci-fi out there.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

I think B5 had more leeway than BSG does because the writing was better. JMS laid out the whole plot beforehand. Obviously he had to come up with plenty of details and he made changes along the way, but it was all laid out. With BSG, I'm sure they had something sort of like that going on, but it seems more like they're making it week to week with only a vague idea of what to do next.

I dunno… I always felt that the arc was fantastic in B5, but some of the writing was just cringe-worthy—a lot of the pseudo-philosophical stuff that the characters (especially later G’Kar and Delenn) spouted was just cringe-worthy. This became even more evident in the spin-offs. I had the dubious honour of watching Legend of the Rangers recently, and I could barely make myself sit through the whole thing; it rapidly descended into uninteresting characters spouting JMS’ slogans far too frequently. About 30% of the dialogue seemed to consist of various characters bellowing “We live for the one, we die for the one” with a steely/determined gaze. It was just embarrassing.

In many respects, I think that later B5—especially Crusade and the aforementioned …Rangers—somewhat collapsed under the weight of the previously-established arc. I felt that JMS had written himself into a corner, and started lazily pulling out the same archetypes and phrases over and over again. That said, the first four seasons of the original really were quite excellent.

As for BSG, it’s much more hit-and-miss. Some of the episodes are really, really weak, but some of them are truly excellent. Overall, I feel it’s better than B5 ever was; whilst it does have a fair number of bum-notes, when it hits the target it really hits it. As such, I think it’s fair to say it’s one of the best shows of the decade.

On a related note, there’s a pretty good piece on io9 entitled “How Battlestar Copied (And Improved On) Star Trek: Deep Space Nine”. Definitely worth a read if you’re a fan of both, and it does have some justified criticism of DS9 even if it is slightly hard on it overall.

[Luca Rescigno]

It's hard for me to determine which series was "better;" all I was really saying is that B5 was better at grabbing my attention and holding it more firmly than BSG has. But that's probably because of the stronger story arc. I cannot rewatch B5 though. I tried once and I just couldn't. It hasn't aged well. If you're not captivated by watching the story unfold before you for the first time, it just doesn't have the same effect. BSG, on the other hand, I've watched twice. Well, most of it I've watched twice. I saw all of it through the first half of season 3 a second time when a friend of mine got into it.

I'd like to say that BSG is a better series overall because it really is in almost every way, but I can't totally discount the way B5 gripped me throughout.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

Id like to say that BSG is a better series overall because it really is in almost every way, but I can't totally discount the way B5 gripped me throughout.

I’m not discounting B5—it gripped me the first time too, and I genuinely think of it as a landmark series. As you say, however, it hasn’t aged well, and I don’t think BSG will age as badly. This is partly because it’s learned a lot of lessons from B5 (which was, in some respects, a trail-blazer).

That said, BSG has gripped me more firmly than B5 did. I think it’s probably because, as a series, it’s so incredibly dark. I genuinely can’t think of any other TV show that’s been quite so thoroughly nihilistic or as grounded in a grim realism as Battlestar is. Add to that some truly stellar performances—Olmos, Helfer and Hogan particularly—and I think that it becomes one of the benchmark series of this decade, if not the benchmark. In twenty years time, I would not be surprised if it was held up as the yardstick against which sci-fi is measured, much as TNG was in the nineties (and still is, to an extent).

[Lateralus]

Okay. Being a B5/DS9/BSG fan, I'll bite;

B5 was certainly a little campy. But as has been said; it attempted to do what no other SciFi show had ever done before, and accomplished it with a budget that was laughable (I've heard B5's Season Budget was comparable to that of many DS9 episodes). And studio support was always horrible, with Straczynski being left to wonder year after year whether he would get another season. But even given that... I could watch B5 straight through again. And I've already watched it straight through several times. I can't say the same for BSG.

B5 has its weaknesses; Delenn was a little over the top on more than one occasion, Straczynski's attempts at humor were embarrassing, and there were a few episodes that did a better job of creating an epic feeling than they did of actually delivering anything of value. But the story segued so well, felt so natural, and generally offered more of a message on a number of levels than BSG has.

I'm not trying to knock BSG; I love it; I've watched every episode on air night since the series premier; I signed up for digital cable specifically so I could be ready for the pilot. And during the first few seasons of the show, I honestly thought it would displace DS9 and B5 for me. And over the past year... I no longer feel that. The ball got dropped somewhere.

[Salty]

I gotta say comparing B5 to BSG isn't really fair. They tried to do two very different things. B5 had a crazy ass galactic arch with all kinds of spiritual/metaphysical/sometimes annoying points to get across.
BSG has a much smaller focus, humanity trying to survive at all costs, against an absurd and unrealistic enemy.

The atmospheres are entirely different, BSG's biggest thing it's got going for it is Sci-Fi without pretence. There are no quick fixes in the BSG universe. Well aside from the whole New Caprica thing (why don't more people have post truamatic stress in the BSG universe?).

B5 had an arch that was beautiful, BSG often feels thrown together, like the effects are great, the acting is quite good most of the time, but now and again they try and do the more insular events, like with that bull dog character, and you get an awful episode.

Really the two aren't fair at all. And keep in mind much of the grit that we love about BSG, was really trail blazed in seasons 3 and 4 of B5.

B5 was sometimes campy but it had a lot more to say than BSG. BSG for the most part is just... well what is the point? It's like the OC sometimes. I mean I love the show, but my goodness somebody needs to tell a bad joke!

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

B5 was certainly a little campy.

[Salty]

They really should have had a queer character on B5... no Susan does not count

[mrtew]

Did you see BSG Pegasus and Razor? The main characters were both queer. And all the "fours" .... and of course Felix.

[Salty]

B5 not BSG. And yah they killed off all the queers

That said I did like how that was just kinda there. And is Geata gay? He always seemed a bit... you know... that way

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Koralatov 

In many respects, I think that later B5—especially Crusade and the aforementioned …Rangers—somewhat collapsed under the weight of the previously-established arc. I felt that JMS had written himself into a corner, and started lazily pulling out the same archetypes and phrases over and over again. That said, the first four seasons of the original really were quite excellent.

JMS was told by several of his friends, after seeing the first episodes of Crusade, that they thought he was burned out, exhausted, and that it showed in the writing.

[Spliff]

I loved B5. It was uneven but the overall effect was devastating. BSG is more consistent but within a narrow band. B5 was sometimes worse than BSG but it's highs were so much higher than BSG's highs.

I like BSG, but I don't love it. It's biggest shortcoming is it's lack of humor. Life is filled with humor, even in the face of great tragedy. BSG omits this. I also find most of the characters to be relentlessly unlikable and grim. They cheat, they drink, they fight, they brood, they brood some more, and they scowl. It's dark, I get it. But I've never known that many ****ed up, nasty, tortured, humourless individuals in my own life. Some levity would be nice and more realistic.

As for BSG aging. I think it'll do better than B5 or DS9 for the simple fact that it doesn't have aliens in it. Cheesy costumes, weird alien hairstyles and cultures, and lame prosthetic facial ridges are big factors in making SF series look dated after a few years.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Spliff 

As for BSG aging. I think it'll do better than B5 or DS9 for the simple fact that it doesn't have aliens in it. Cheesy costumes, weird alien hairstyles and cultures, and lame prosthetic facial ridges are big factors in making SF series look dated after a few years.

Or, as in the case of Andromeda, *immediately*.

[Mithras]

It's a long dry spell out there in TVland.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Spliff 

I like BSG, but I don't love it. It's biggest shortcoming is it's lack of humor. Life is filled with humor, even in the face of great tragedy. BSG omits this. I also find most of the characters to be relentlessly unlikable and grim. They cheat, they drink, they fight, they brood, they brood some more, and they scowl. It's dark, I get it. But I've never known that many ****ed up, nasty, tortured, humourless individuals in my own life. Some levity would be nice and more realistic.

I think they've had just the right amount of humor considering the human race was nearly wiped out.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spliff 

I loved B5. It was uneven but the overall effect was devastating. BSG is more consistent but within a narrow band. B5 was sometimes worse than BSG but it's highs were so much higher than BSG's highs.

I like BSG, but I don't love it. It's biggest shortcoming is it's lack of humor. Life is filled with humor, even in the face of great tragedy. BSG omits this. I also find most of the characters to be relentlessly unlikable and grim. They cheat, they drink, they fight, they brood, they brood some more, and they scowl. It's dark, I get it. But I've never known that many ****ed up, nasty, tortured, humourless individuals in my own life. Some levity would be nice and more realistic.

As for BSG aging. I think it'll do better than B5 or DS9 for the simple fact that it doesn't have aliens in it. Cheesy costumes, weird alien hairstyles and cultures, and lame prosthetic facial ridges are big factors in making SF series look dated after a few years.

I agree and especially about the humor thing. Rarely is black humor more prevalent in humans as when they are faced with utter devestation. Setting that completely to one side, a little humor would go a long way to make BSG good. I've said it many times, setting aside questionable acting, BSG takes itself far too seriously.

Way too seriously. If something funny happens it is completely unintentional

[Chuckit]

I don't know, some of Baltar's scenes throughout the series have been pretty dang funny.

[Lateralus]

Something tells me that any comedic moments on the part of Baltar are the work of Callis. As an actor, he seems to have a certain comedic timing.

If you saw the BSG cast deliver the Top Ten List on Letterman a few months ago, you know what I'm talking about.

[rjenkinson]

The paper shortage joke was pretty funny.

[::maroma::]

I think there have been just the right amount of humor in BSG. This series was meant to be a serious one from the start. Throwing in too much humor would make is a completely different series (think original BSG). As others have said this takes place in the darkest hour for the Human race. Humor would be there (and it is) but too much would belittle the plight.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

I have never sat there thinking that BSG needs more laughs. I want funny I watch Cosby.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I want funny I watch Cosby.

There's something you don't hear every day.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

Something tells me that any comedic moments on the part of Baltar are the work of Callis.

He said as much in an interview:

I suppose I did play up, even in the very early auditions, the humor. At least I found it very funny. The bits that I was doing, or rehearsing for, were funny. He's caught in bed with a woman, there's another woman—I'm like, "That's hysterical."

Gaius is perhaps a very big reason why so many other things happened in the show, but in the miniseries, I think the directors, the writers, the powers that be very much had a picture of the whole, and the whole was a tragedy. And so this kind of little bit in the middle—me, this anomaly—I think initially people were slightly unsure of. It was like, "Yeah, I'm not sure it's supposed to be funny."

The thing is, I've never found Baltar to be funny and always found him annoying. And Callis' acting is excessively mannered.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

I think there have been just the right amount of humor in BSG. This series was meant to be a serious one from the start. Throwing in too much humor would make is a completely different series (think original BSG). As others have said this takes place in the darkest hour for the Human race. Humor would be there (and it is) but too much would belittle the plight.

Humor does not belittle tragedy or grim events. The kind of humor I'm talking about isn't meant to be disrespectful where you laugh at the suffering of people. It's the absurdity of it, the irony. It's not pie-in-the-face humor that I'm talking about.

I'm not suggesting BSG be turned into a sitcom. But some black humor and some gallows humor would be nice. The thing is, tragedy is easy to write, comedy isn't. Comedy is every bit tragedy's equal, and they're interconnected. If you read about Stalin and his murder of 20 million people, you'll find it a source of much dark comedy or as Martin Amis calls it, black farce (see Amis' Koba the Dread: Laughter and the Twenty Million).

This article is a good read:

The Greeks understood that comedy (the gods' view of life) is superior to tragedy (the merely human). But since the middle ages, western culture has overvalued the tragic and undervalued the comic. This is why fiction today is so full of anxiety and suffering. It's time writers got back to the serious business of making us laugh
...........
Two and a half thousand years ago, at the time of Aristophanes, the Greeks believed that comedy was superior to tragedy: tragedy was the merely human view of life (we sicken, we die). But comedy was the gods' view, from on high: our endless and repetitive cycle of suffering, our horror of it, our inability to escape it. The big, drunk, flawed, horny Greek gods watched us for entertainment, like a dirty, funny, violent, repetitive cartoon. And the best of the old Greek comedy tried to give us that relaxed, amused perspective on our flawed selves. We became as gods, laughing at our own follies.

Many of the finest novels—and certainly the novels I love most—are in the Greek comic tradition, rather than the tragic: Rabelais, Cervantes, Swift, Voltaire, and on through to Joseph Heller's Catch-22 and the late Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5.

Yet western culture since the middle ages has overvalued the tragic and undervalued the comic. We think of tragedy as major, and comedy as minor. Brilliant comedies never win the best film Oscar. The Booker prize leans toward the tragic. In 1984, Martin Amis reinvented Rabelais in his comic masterpiece Money. The best English novel of the 1980s, it didn't even make the shortlist. Anita Brookner won that year, for Hotel du Lac, written, as the Observer put it, "with a beautiful grave formality."

The fault is in the culture. But it is also internalised in the writers, who self-limit and self-censor. If the subject is big, difficult and serious, the writer tends to believe the treatment must be in the tragic mode. When Amis addressed the Holocaust in his minor novel Time's Arrow (1991), he switched off the jokes, and the energy, and was rewarded with his only Booker shortlisting.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Spliff 

I like BSG, but I don't love it. It's biggest shortcoming is it's lack of humor. Life is filled with humor, even in the face of great tragedy. BSG omits this.

The humor is far between, but I'm still laughing about the dinner party where they were all looking at Tigh's wife thinking she was a Cylon and she said "BOO!" and they all just about fell out of their seats. Oh and just last week when Deanna told Rosyln that she was the final Cylon.

[Salty]

I think the whole Six having mental sex with Baltar was pretty dang funny. But I do agree, B5 gave you a lot more to smile about. There were dark points along the way a lot, but in general there were some pretty funny things. BSG can't change that now, mind you. But I think you're right.

Starbuck has done some damned funny things though. Lee getting fat was just scary though!

[mrtew]

I was looking at the Cylon models at Cylon Models - Battlestar Wiki and noticed again that the final cylon is clearly the number 7's, whoever they are. They must be a boxed model that the others either don't talk about or don't even remember. They didn't seen to ever mention D'anna after she was boxed until the plan was hatched to ask her who the final 5 were either did they? I was thinking that the mid-season finale was filmed so that it could stand as the series finale if it had to, but not ever answering the question of who the final cylon was is kinda crazy. And what happened to the 1's 4's and 5's? Were they all killed in the civil war and the destruction of the hub, or are they following still and will show up on Earth in the next episode. Or did they beat them there and destroy the Earth? And speaking of boxed models, how do they do that anyway? D'anna doesn't seem like the type to go willingly. Did they Centurions get orders to kill them all so they could be put in boxes in the resurrection ships or what? And when D'anna apologized to one of the final five when she saw them in the temple was it one of the four on the Galactica or the final one? And if it was the final one was she apologizing for her part in boxing it or what?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

I was thinking that the mid-season finale was filmed so that it could stand as the series finale if it had to, but not ever answering the question of who the final cylon was is kinda crazy.

Actually the next one would have been the last one shot.

[Salty]

I think the other three models just haven't needed to be shown recetly. Anybody notice that it's kinda like the boys vs. the girls? Only Leoban's on the girls side... maybe he's secretly gay? Starbuck is pretty butch... I used to try for butch chicks before I just accepted I liked boys...