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lexapro · Feb 22, 2009, 05:21 PM

I just watched an episode of Doll House. I saw Karl Agathon and Romo Lampkin! It's BSG recast!

ThinkInsane · Feb 22, 2009, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

My other big problem with her is that everything has to be wrapped up by the end of the show. So, instead of us getting to watch the characters of the final five debate with themselves and each other whether or not to leave, we had to have some dramatic thing at the end to solve the problem.

That's because the writers didn't have a clue where this was going so now we get crap as they try to wrap up the story. That's the point Whiskey Jack and I have tried to impress on you to no avail.

This was a bad episode.

Don Pickett · Feb 22, 2009, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

That's because the writers didn't have a clue where this was going so now we get crap as they try to wrap up the story.

Nope: even a cursory read of RDM's interviews will show you that the writers have known how the series will end from the time they started writing it (before the strike), and that the decision to have Ellen coming back as one of the final five was made in the third season. They were even foreshadowing it last year.

This episode sucked because Espenson is a crappy writer. She only knows how to write soap operas.

Chuckit · Feb 22, 2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

That's because the writers didn't have a clue where this was going so now we get crap as they try to wrap up the story. That's the point Whiskey Jack and I have tried to impress on you to no avail.

This was a bad episode.

I don't see how poor storytelling by Jane Espenson within a single episode would have anything to do with Ron Moore's overall vision of the series.

This is becoming like Godwin's Law: Any discussion of any aspect of Battlestar Galactica will lead to complaining about Ron Moore's supposed lack of an overall vision.

voodoo · Feb 22, 2009, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I don't see how poor storytelling by Jane Espenson within a single episode would have anything to do with Ron Moore's overall vision of the series.

This is becoming like Godwin's Law: Any discussion of any aspect of Battlestar Galactica will lead to complaining about Ron Moore's supposed lack of an overall vision.

Blaming a single writer is perhaps a convenient thing to do, but I would hesitate to do that - especially in light of the time which the makers of BSG have had to write these last seasons and I am not ready to dismiss the influence of the executive producer so lightly.

Even if the show was held hostage by the poor work of a single writer, then that doesn't reflect very well on the producers either. When all is said and done, making a work like this is a group effort and at the helm of this project is the executive producer.

goMac · Feb 22, 2009, 09:56 PM

Am I the only one who didn't mind this episode?

• The loss of Caprica's baby was to make clear that the Cylons reproducing is not the way forward, whatever the reasons the baby could not survive.
• The integration of the Cylons into the crew is touching, especially how they've started also posting photos on the wall. Combination Cylon/Viper patrols are awesome.
• The Basestar looks like it's being repaired back to original condition, raising the question of if Galactica will also be restored to original condition.
• Adama drunk is I think a reflection of the wellbeing of the ship. Galactica is also very sick right now, and going through huge changes. It sounds like afterwards Galactica may even be considered a living vessel on a very basic level?
• The only thing I found weird was the arming of Baltar's people. WTF?

mrtew · Feb 22, 2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

That's because the writers didn't have a clue where this was going so now we get crap as they try to wrap up the story. That's the point Whiskey Jack and I have tried to impress on you to no avail.

Well you better just keep on repeating it over and over and over until we're all convinced! Geez. If you weren't a moderator I'd ask to have you and voodoo restricted from bashing the show and it's fans more than once per page.

Wiskedjak · Feb 22, 2009, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

I also noticed Ellen said the skinjobs didn't invent God.

Actually, I think she said the Final Five didn't invent God.

Wiskedjak · Feb 22, 2009, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

• The integration of the Cylons into the crew is touching, especially how they've started also posting photos on the wall. Combination Cylon/Viper patrols are awesome.

A touching feeling which is completely undone by the Cylons talking about abandoning the fleet.

Don Pickett · Feb 23, 2009, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

This is becoming like Godwin's Law: Any discussion of any aspect of Battlestar Galactica will lead to complaining about Ron Moore's supposed lack of an overall vision.

I think you're on to something. This morning, when I was adding milk to my coffee the milk was spoiled even though the fresh date on the carton was this coming Friday. Clearly this is because of Ron Moore's lack of an overall vision.

voodoo · Feb 23, 2009, 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by mrtew

Well you better just keep on repeating it over and over and over until we're all convinced! Geez. If you weren't a moderator I'd ask to have you and voodoo restricted from bashing the show and it's fans more than once per page.

(BTW this TV show gets an average of 9.1 out of 10 on IMDB, which is pretty insanely high all things considered and does make me wonder about its fans - then again Twin Peaks gets a 9.4 so BSG still has some ways to go)

-- those lacking a sense of humor probably got outraged after reading the above --

OreoCookie · Feb 23, 2009, 06:28 AM

I'm now convinced that we will find out in the end that there is no real distinction (anymore) between cylons and humans. That we're `all cylons' (or hybrids if you wish). The key are the centurions that revolt against their masters (call them cylons). If you remember the episodes on Caprica, the centurions were rebuilding while their masters were sipping their macchiatos in a café.

Regarding the last episode, it really didn't make sense to me that Tyrol would agree to leaving the fleet, he has just accepted his old job back as chief of Galactica. I didn't find that coherent. Overall, this episode wasn't anywhere as good as the previous two, which I thought were excellent.

mrtew · 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I'm now convinced that we will find out in the end that there is no real distinction (anymore) between cylons and humans. That we're `all cylons' (or hybrids if you wish).

You mean the timeline will skip ahead 5000 years to when all those characters are dead and their descendants are deciding to re-settle the Earth? Sounds pretty boring and predictable. I hope not. I mean they already can't tell any difference without a test. Maybe the show has a message or something and they cylons are an analogy for something we are facing in reality. It's always seemed to me that the war against the cylons had some reference to the war against 'terror'. Maybe cylons are analogous to radicalized Muslims. Maybe in the end it'll turn out that they created the same God that we did.

OreoCookie · Feb 23, 2009, 08:32 AM

I don't think the message will be different -- and it doesn't even break your analogy (if you're willing/able to make it): unless Hera dies, there is cylon blood in humans (it has all happened before …), so the two races, if there is such a distinction to be made, have already mingled.

One possibility would be that `humans' were the cylons of the original Capricans. They rebelled, split up to found twelve + one colonies and the whole cycle started anew. I don't think an improbable ending `just to surprise us' would do us any good if it's not logically coherent with the rest of the show. IMO it's much more likely that the back story turns out to something like this, but the end is open (will they break the cycle?). On RDM's blog, I remember one post where he describes the end of the series The Sopranos as `the perfect ending' exactly because there is no resolution.

goMac · Feb 23, 2009, 10:52 AM

I don't agree. I think that in every previous cycle, the Cylons and the humans did not mix. The hybrid will be what finally breaks the cycle by integrating Cylons and Humans.

voodoo · Feb 23, 2009, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

On RDM's blog, I remember one post where he describes the end of the series The Sopranos as `the perfect ending' exactly because there is no resolution.

That's what we call burying the lead!

that's a royal we!

OreoCookie · Feb 23, 2009, 11:37 AM

Just on a side note, I haven't watched a single episode of The Sopranos, but from what I can gather, the final episode didn't answer the questions people wanted to have answered. He thought it was a struck of genius.

Chuckit · Feb 23, 2009, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by voodoo

Blaming a single writer is perhaps a convenient thing to do, but I would hesitate to do that - especially in light of the time which the makers of BSG have had to write these last seasons and I am not ready to dismiss the influence of the executive producer so lightly.

I doubt Espenson had that radically less time than the writers of the past couple of episodes, which were so much better it was like a different show. She just didn't do a good job this time. And I can't see any reason not to dismiss the influence of the executive producer, given the lack of evidence that he had anything to do with the poor writing beyond not taking her script and throwing it in the nearest Dumpster.

ThinkInsane · Feb 23, 2009, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by mrtew

Well you better just keep on repeating it over and over and over until we're all convinced! Geez. If you weren't a moderator I'd ask to have you and voodoo restricted from bashing the show and it's fans more than once per page.

Being critical is not bashing, and I am not bashing Don, we are having a discussion. I am a fan of the show myself, thank you very much, even if I'm not a rah rah fanboy. I'll try and constrict my comments to "OMG that was the best EVAR" if it'll make you feel better.

And just for the record, if I never participated in this thread, and you made a request that someone be limited in their opinions for disagreeing with you, as a moderator I would deny your request. We don't work that way chief.

andi*pandi · Feb 23, 2009, 02:24 PM

I don't think espenson is a hack soap opera writer, but she certainly has written better.

Don Pickett · Feb 23, 2009, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I'm now convinced that we will find out in the end that there is no real distinction (anymore) between cylons and humans. That we're `all cylons' (or hybrids if you wish). The key are the centurions that revolt against their masters (call them cylons). If you remember the episodes on Caprica, the centurions were rebuilding while their masters were sipping their macchiatos in a café.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but as the series goes on the difference between cylons and humans is getting narrower and narrower. Cylons are obviously as prone to being ruled by their emotions as are humans, and now that the resurrection hub is gone the only major difference is that one reproduces biologically and one needs technology. But in terms of how that act there really is no difference now.

I think we may learn some interesting things about the 13th Tribe. If, say, the idea behind creating the skinjobs in the first place was an improved human being, one not so prone to human weaknesses, then it didn't work, which may be part of the reason for Tigh's speech.

goMac · Feb 28, 2009, 03:13 AM

Well that was a downer of an episode...

Puts the last episode in more perspective though.

Chuckit · Feb 28, 2009, 03:59 AM

You know, I've always thought the series should explore Boomer's character more. I mean, she's this innocent pilot who's forced against her will to do horrible things that cause the entire human race to despise her. Then tries to end the war with the Cylons but it gets messed up and she winds up being even more hated than ever — despite having had the best intentions from episode 1 and being probably the nicest character on the show. That's a really complex and interesting history for a character. Yet she's only had one episode since she first died.

And this is the best direction they could think to take that? Way lame.

lavar78 · Feb 28, 2009, 08:29 AM

More importantly, it appears Starbuck is the first Cylon/human hybrid.

analogue SPRINKLES · Feb 28, 2009, 02:05 PM

That episode was really slow and disappointing. The last bit with Boomer was awesome though.

Doesn't Starbuck already know the truth unless her dad changed her name from Daniel?

goMac · Feb 28, 2009, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

Doesn't Starbuck already know the truth unless her dad changed her name from Daniel?

I don't think she knows about Daniel and in the episode we saw her fathers name wasn't Daniel anyway (it was on the album that she had).

besson3c · Feb 28, 2009, 04:53 PM

Who says that her Dad would have to have the name "Daniel" in order to be a Daniel?

analogue SPRINKLES · Feb 28, 2009, 04:53 PM

How did boomer find the fleet at earth in the first place? I assume Ellen told her but now Boomer can lead Cavel right to em.

goMac · Feb 28, 2009, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

How did boomer find the fleet at earth in the first place? I assume Ellen told her but now Boomer can lead Cavel right to em.

This will likely happen shortly... but likely they wanted to get the baby off first. They can't exactly blow away Galactica while the baby is on board.

I'd assume Cavel has known the location of the fleet the entire time.

Probably we'll see Galactica have to sacrifice itself.

Don Pickett · Feb 28, 2009, 10:24 PM

Good, cliff hanger episode. Nice to see Sackhoff have some room to play Starbuck something other than terminally pissed off.

starman · Feb 28, 2009, 11:21 PM

Anyone notice what the beginning of the second movement was? Nice little easter egg.

goMac · Feb 28, 2009, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Anyone notice what the beginning of the second movement was? Nice little easter egg.

Which part of the episode was that in?

Don Pickett · Mar 1, 2009, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by starman

Anyone notice what the beginning of the second movement was? Nice little easter egg.

I thought I heard All Along the Watchtower, but I could be wrong.

lexapro · Mar 1, 2009, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

I thought I heard All Along the Watchtower, but I could be wrong.

It completely was. I liked that scene a lot.

On another note, the Galactica seems to be totally on the way out. The ship is screwed.

Don Pickett · Mar 1, 2009, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by lexapro

It completely was. I liked that scene a lot.

On another note, the Galactica seems to be totally on the way out. The ship is screwed.

Pretty much.

If I had to guess I'd think that Cavil will hold the kid hostage to get the final five to build a resurrection hub.

starman · Mar 1, 2009, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by lexapro

It completely was.

It wasn't.

Only HUGE Galactica fans would get it.

jokell82 · Mar 1, 2009, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by starman

It wasn't.

Only HUGE Galactica fans would get it.

It's the theme song from the original show, only it was the extended opening only used in the first episode.

starman · Mar 1, 2009, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by jokell82

It's the theme song from the original show, only it was the extended opening only used in the first episode.

Bingo.

Visnaut · Mar 1, 2009, 02:19 AM

Good to see BSG back in form. Although a little obvious with the lines they were drawing at times, and still low on details, it was a well told story, much better than the one before it. I wonder if Slick/Kara's dad will show up in future episodes.

What was interesting was the implication that jumping a ship in close proximity to another was somehow physically dangerous. There have been times when this has been depicted, but without mention of those effects.

Originally Posted by jokell82

It's the theme song from the original show, only it was the extended opening only used in the first episode.

Yeah, Bear McCreary mentioned the usage of this in his blog, along with a nice breakdown of his involvement in this episode.

starman · Mar 1, 2009, 02:38 AM

^^ I just read that blog now. I didn't know it existed until I started reading the BSG forums just now. My God, those forums are ugly. It really makes you appreciate NN.

Chuckit · Mar 1, 2009, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Visnaut

What was interesting was the implication that jumping a ship in close proximity to another was somehow physically dangerous. There have been times when this has been depicted, but without mention of those effects.

As far as I can recall, no ship ever jumped within, say, 10 feet of another ship like Boomer seemed to do.

On the other hand, Galactica did jump maybe a few thousand feet up in New Caprica's atmosphere without causing a wicked shockwave.

starman · Mar 1, 2009, 04:49 AM

Yes, a few episodes back when the Tylium ship jumped. The raptors were VERY close and only got thrown back.

Visnaut · Mar 1, 2009, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by starman

Yes, a few episodes back when the Tylium ship jumped. The raptors were VERY close and only got thrown back.

Yeah, that's what came to mind to me as well.

It's never seemed as if FTL drives had any physical effect on a ship, but with the chief asking Adama a few episodes ago "not to jump her for a while", that certainly seems the case.

And now in this last episode, he measures the repairs as able to "buy a few more jumps; but not many". Really now? I thought that was the case before the repairs. It seems as if all that effort to spread cylon goop was all for naught, since it did next to nothing.

Although I still think it was a good episode, I'm not happy with how this last run of them are being really rushed. This whole breakdown and repair story thread being a perfect example. They squandered a bunch of episodes at the beginning of the season with boring storytelling that didn't move the series forward. They should have found Earth a few episodes earlier, started the mutiny thread sooner, and interspersed the ongoing exchanges between Cavil and Ellen over a bunch of episodes instead of crammed into one. That would have been much more like Season 1's overall style, which successfully drew us all in.

Now because they have to address so many plot points in so few episodes, I'm starting to doubt whether the next one and the two-parter finale will do the series justice. I'm not saying they can't, I just hope they do.

SpaceMonkey · Mar 1, 2009, 01:20 PM

Yeah, I'm a little dissatisfied with the way that Galactica's degradation suddenly became so critical.

Thorzdad · Mar 1, 2009, 02:16 PM

I dunno...I've gotten this far with the show but I really don't know if I'm willing to stick with it for the remaining episodes. It's just not...entertaining?...interesting?...anymore. It's like spending an hour with your most deeply depressed and suicidal friend. You want to stay with them, but it's just a horribly agonizing slog that doesn't seem to be going anywhere except down. Add-in the gratuitous violence of BSG and, frankly, I'm beginning to simply not care how it ends, as long as it just ends.

I think they could've wrapped-up the final season in, perhaps, three episodes if it weren't for all the depressive navel-gazing.

Chuckit · Mar 1, 2009, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Visnaut

And now in this last episode, he measures the repairs as able to "buy a few more jumps; but not many". Really now? I thought that was the case before the repairs.

I took that to mean "A few more jumps than we would have had, but not many." Like, maybe they could have jumped five more times and now they have 10.

andi*pandi · Mar 1, 2009, 02:48 PM

this ep was much better than the last. I liked the Kara scenes even if they were telegraphed and what we all guessed, it made for a good arc for the character. I wonder if her dad really left, or was taken.

Chief is a sucker, I bet he's going to sacrifice himself to solve his guilt. Did he kill that other 8 he swapped for boomer?

The 8 models except athena seem to have an odd sense of ethics.

goMac · Mar 1, 2009, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I took that to mean "A few more jumps than we would have had, but not many." Like, maybe they could have jumped five more times and now they have 10.

Who knows how many they have now... Probably none...

Chuckit · Mar 1, 2009, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

this ep was much better than the last. I liked the Kara scenes even if they were telegraphed and what we all guessed, it made for a good arc for the character. I wonder if her dad really left, or was taken.

Chief is a sucker, I bet he's going to sacrifice himself to solve his guilt. Did he kill that other 8 he swapped for boomer?

The 8 models except athena seem to have an odd sense of ethics.

Athena wasn't a good guy to begin with either, but it seems like Hera changed that.

chichow · Mar 4, 2009, 06:39 PM

I've watched almost every episode, but did fade out in season 3.

Some questions.

#1 out of the remaining 3 episodes. Is it one more, than a 2 part final? Or a 3-part final?

#2 Which cyclons are on each side? Sixes and Eights are with Galactica? Who is with Cavil?

#3 Do we know about projection being Cylon - cylon / Cylon - human / cylon - hybrid?

Thanks!