[Eug]

Province gives Toronto billions for Eglinton light rail line, transit plan



After a bazillion studies and maybe 20 years of dawdling, it seems the governments are finally going to move Toronto and the Greater Toronto Area into the 20th and 21st centuries. They've already set aside CAD$9 billion (US$7.2 billion) for this series of projects.

This transit expansion is not with subway, but mostly with electric light rail. I've used light rail in places like Boston and San Francisco. Those were a little too "light" for my tastes, but by the looks of it the new Toronto will be much more advanced, at least if the video is in any way accurate. I hope it's in the very least as nice as the one in Vancouver, but I'm hoping it's better than that too.

The most interesting will be the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, as it's going to be 31 km long, with 13 km in the middle underground, and it will connect to Toronto Pearson International Airport. That's all for a low, low price of $4 600 000 000. Too bad it's gonna take until 2016 before it's completed (at the earliest).

This will increase road traffic to a certain extent because of the lost driving lanes, but OTOH, perhaps it will eventually even things out because of the increased utilization along those corridors. It will also encourage residential and commercial building along those corridors. Right now there is too much low density commercial retail there, partially because it's zoned that way, but also partially because public transit isn't very good there at the moment.

[osiris]

Good for you, and Toronto. It's great when a government tackles a large project like this and actually puts a timeline on it.

As a part time NYC resident, I can't help but express seething dismay at the NYC Metropolitan Transit Authority's utter failure to even tend to the most rudimentary of problems, like filth, nevermind an actual service improvement. Good for you!

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by osiris 

As a part time NYC resident, I can't help but express seething dismay at the NYC Metropolitan Transit Authority's utter failure to even tend to the most rudimentary of problems, like filth, nevermind an actual service improvement. Good for you!

That's because people don't want to pay taxes.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

That's because people don't want to pay taxes.

BS The MTA is a corrupt organization, as is most of NYC's government.

[Eug]

Dunno about NY, but in Toronto, the impression I get is most people are supportive of the transit expansion. Taxes to build effective transit are considered OK. However, the very same people are suspicious of the management of the Toronto Transit Commission. One reason is because of the TTC's inability to negotiate with the unions effectively in terms of pay scale. Most of the city thinks that TTC ticket takers for example are grossly overpaid. Sure, bus drivers need to make a decent living, but there is a lot of excess elsewhere in the system. It doesn't take much sit in a glass booth all day handing out tickets, yet some ticket takers make over $100000. That's with overtime of course, but something is just seriously wrong if they're making that much money, even with overtime.

Torontonians have also been very suspicious of the TTC management and the governments because they have done study after study after study and end up doing nothing because of bureaucratic bickering, etc. Interesting, the day before this announcement, the provincial government essentially kicked out some bureaucrats from the process so perhaps this will speed things up. They merged Go Transit and Metrolinx, which hopefully will streamline things, esp. since this merger will see the municipal governments kicked out of the bureaucracy as well to a large extent.

Cliff Notes:

Torontonians generally support big projects to greatly expand public transit.
Torontonians don't support high wages paid to some transit workers.

[nonhuman]

I wish people would just give up on the idea that rail transit is somehow the be all end all of transportation. Bus Rapid Transit is almost universally better than rail transit (if done properly). Just because it goes on rails doesn't make it better, and in many ways makes it worse.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

I wish people would just give up on the idea that rail transit is somehow the be all end all of transportation. Bus Rapid Transit is almost universally better than rail transit (if done properly). Just because it goes on rails doesn't make it better, and in many ways makes it worse.

It's an improvement in San Jose, anyway. The Light Rail is pretty darn reliable. Buses are notorious for being late or not showing up at all.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

I wish people would just give up on the idea that rail transit is somehow the be all end all of transportation. Bus Rapid Transit is almost universally better than rail transit (if done properly). Just because it goes on rails doesn't make it better, and in many ways makes it worse.

Rail transit is not the be all end all of transportation, but it's quite clear that some people would much, much rather take rail. I'm one of them. I personally hate taking the bus, but like taking the subway and rail.

I spoke to some city planners, and they told me many people think exactly the same way. Bus service often adds very little to property value, because people don't care. Add a subway line and suddenly everyone wants to live there.

This is apparent in Toronto. Lots of the popular lower priced condo developments are very near subway stops. In contrast, there are several areas with bus support but no subway or light rail that continue to remain empty.

This new light rail service will change a lot of that. Areas that had bus-only support before will now get good light rail support.

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

It's an improvement in San Jose, anyway. The Light Rail is pretty darn reliable. Buses are notorious for being late or not showing up at all.

That's one reason. The other reason is harder to explain. Some people would rather take a tram car than a bus too, but in Toronto in the winter, they're both kinda unreliable.

The good news is the claim from this announcement that the new LRTs can withstand a lot more snow than the previous tram cars and buses, because the LRTs are much heavier. If that's actually true, then the reliability should increase dramatically. Plus, the underground parts won't have to deal with the snow.

(The reason they didn't do it all underground is because it's $300 million per km underground. It's "only" $80 million per km otherwise.)

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Dunno about NY, but in Toronto, the impression I get is most people are supportive of the transit expansion. Taxes to build effective transit are considered OK. However, the very same people are suspicious of the management of the Toronto Transit Commission. One reason is because of the TTC's inability to negotiate with the unions effectively in terms of pay scale. Most of the city thinks that TTC ticket takers for example are grossly overpaid. Sure, bus drivers need to make a decent living, but there is a lot of excess elsewhere in the system. It doesn't take much sit in a glass booth all day handing out tickets, yet some ticket takers make over $100000. That's with overtime of course, but something is just seriously wrong if they're making that much money, even with overtime.

Torontonians have also been very suspicious of the TTC management and the governments because they have done study after study after study and end up doing nothing because of bureaucratic bickering, etc. Interesting, the day before this announcement, the provincial government essentially kicked out some bureaucrats from the process so perhaps this will speed things up. They merged Go Transit and Metrolinx, which hopefully will streamline things, esp. since this merger will see the municipal governments kicked out of the bureaucracy as well to a large extent.

Cliff Notes:

Torontonians generally support big projects to greatly expand public transit.
Torontonians don't support high wages paid to some transit workers.

It sounds like NYC and Toronto have a lot in common!

Many pin the blame on the Unions (100K a year bus drivers), management (the MTA maintains more than one accounting ledger). I think both are to blame.

But at least you will see some improvement in Toronto - the MTA recently voted to increase fares and cut service.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

I wish people would just give up on the idea that rail transit is somehow the be all end all of transportation. Bus Rapid Transit is almost universally better than rail transit (if done properly). Just because it goes on rails doesn't make it better, and in many ways makes it worse.

Why is LRT preferred over buses?

LRT is more comfortable for riders, quieter, has no emissions on the street, and is far superior in carrying capacity in a constrained environment such as an arterial roadway. Buses in dedicated lanes, sometimes called BRT, or bus rapid transit, could not easily accommodate 5,000 to 5,400 people – the peak hour demand projected in the corridor - unless the bus ROW includes by-pass lanes at intersections/stations to allow some buses to operate “express” and pass “local buses” stopped to serve customers.

To illustrate the problem, the forecasted demand would require as many as 72 buses per hour (one 18-metre long “articulated” bus about every 50 seconds. Even with dedicated lanes, buses operating this close together would catch up to one another and ‘bunching’ would result if some of them don’t operate express. Given that there are a variety of important objectives for the study corridor – in addition to high quality transit – such as a comfortable walking environment, attractive streetscaping, bike lanes, etc., there is insufficient width available to allow the construction of a by-pass lane to be added to the transit right of way.

If it makes you feel any better, around where I live they're assessing feasibility for Bus Rapid Transit. Right now there is limited bus support, but the lanes are general purpose lanes. The reason why they're specifically targeting BRT for my area is the relatively low population density. The desire is to build two dedicated bus lanes (one in each direction), along with four or five general traffic lanes, and bike lanes at the edges. Although there is no money in place yet to do this, the good news is that building dedicated bus lanes is comparatively much cheaper than rail and can be implemented a lot more quickly too.



This should be more than adequate support the area for the time being. However, the area currently is low density retail/commercial only, and the intent is to rezone it for higher density residential/retail/commercial. If so, within the next couple of decades I foresee increased condo/townhouse development in the area, which will obviously increase ridership. Thus, the dedicated BRT lanes will be designed with LRT in mind. If BRT is sufficient in the area, they'll stick with BRT. However, if residential development increases to a point where there is a need for 5000 riders an hour, then LRT can be added later with much less infrastructure cost than starting from scratch.

I did say earlier that people prefer rail over bus, but I do agree with you that BRT if implemented well is better than run-of-the-mill bus. Plus, I think that designing BRT lanes with LRT in mind is encouraging to existing residents, potential residents, and developers. To me, that's more like just a stage of LRT. The LRT-ness can mature as development and ridership increases.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Those LTR's look cool. Can't wait to ride one of those, much more fun than the subway.

[revMedia]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

That's because people don't want to pay taxes.

This.

Although, if there were some more accountability for the money that was spent, people might not resist so much. They would still resist, just not as much.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Those LTR's look cool. Can't wait to ride one of those, much more fun than the subway.

It's just a mockup, but yeah it does look interesting. The mockup's design is pretty sleek, although I'm guessing it won't look anywhere near that nice after a couple of months of real-world use. Regardless, I like how they can work on main streets yet still have the length of short subway trains when necessary (like in that bottom pic). I also like how they're emphasizing they'll put in bike lanes whenever possible.

[ghporter]

This looks quite nice, Eug. When I visited Toronto (a LONG time ago) I was impressed by the combination of subway and bus system that made it easy to get around. The highway system wasn't shabby either, including elevated "through" lanes and separate "local exit" lanes-I wish they'd do something like that around here.

But having your airport connected to the city by a light rail link is a Very Good Thing. The last time I visited Washington DC, I took the Metro from National to about two blocks from my hotel. THAT is very cool. Having something even somewhat like that could make Toronto much easier to get around in and thus make her much more attractive for visitors, businesses, etc.

[Eug]

Yeah, I now live in the opposite side of the city from the airport. When this thing gets built, I'll live a 7 min taxi ride from a single direct train to the airport. Very nice. When not in rush hour, it would be faster to drive, but would be less convenient and more expensive because I'd have to find parking at the airport. During rush hour, it could be much faster to take the LRT. Too bad it won't be for another 7 years at the earliest until it gets built.

BTW, One good side effect is that these lanes may be used for ambulances if necessary. These are not like subway tracks. They're like streetcar tracks so regular vehicles can also drive on them.

The only downside is that these LRTs cannot take as many people as subways, but at this point I don't think the cost is justified.

[Visnaut]

Bah, I've grown up in Toronto, and I still use public transport to get around exclusively (I don't even have a driver's license), and I'm totally not enthused by this plan.

Why? Not because I don't like LRTs when they work right, it's because I hate them when they don't. I've been burned so many times by streetcars, not because they broke down (well, okay maybe once) but because of the fact that when something obstructs them, the whole line becomes useless, stranding passengers.

• Bad experience #1: College Streetcar
  • On more than one occasion, I've been stranded on the College streetcar because some idiot didn't park right or an emergency services vehicle couldn't tuck in because of the narrow street. A bus would be able to go around or take a detour. Streetcar? Stuck there for who knows how long, and keeping all traffic behind it. Frankly, they should just rip up the tracks on College.
• Bad experience #2-58: St. Clair Streetcar
  • Rush hour is a nightmare on this route. Streetcars don't show up for 30 mins, forming huge crowds on those narrow, dangerous mid-street stops, and when they show up, they don't even travel for the full length of the route.
  • Now of course, any Torontonian would rebut that they're fixing this with the right-of way they're building on St. Clair. Well, read below, but all I'll say is that I'm enjoying much, much better service with the replacement buses they have running the route temporarily, at any given time of day, than I ever did with the streetcars.
• Bad experience #59: Spadina Streetcar
  • And finally, whenever I have a discussion about how much I dislike streetcars, everyone always rebuts with "Ah, but on Spadina, it's perfect, with the right-of-way, and the wide streets." Bzzt! Wrong, I counter. Why? Because God forbid there's any sort of obstruction while you're on. Like a malfunction, a collision with the streetcar itself, or an accident in the intersection where, hey, they most commonly happen! Especially with some of the idiotic drivers we have in this city. And in all of those occasions, the tracks were obstructed for well over an hour, and they never sent any shuttle buses.

So really, I'm not sold on this concept. And I'll be the first to admit that LRTs are a really nice, fast, efficient way to travel, in and of themselves. The crux of the issue is that when problems inevitably arise on the route, you're really screwed, because TTC management will leave you hanging in the wind. They can't make a short line like Spadina work, they could barely keep St. Clair sputtering along, so I really don't have any confidence that they'll know how to handle longer routes like the Eglinton one they're planning.

[Eug]

I don't deny that they will encounter problems, but one fundamental thing to understand is that LRTs are not streetcars, despite having some similarities. Furthermore, you're comparing 2009 LRTs vs. 20 year old street car tech. And as you said, most of those examples did not use dedicated paths. The Spadina line does, and guess what, it does work better than other streetcar lines and buses, even if it's not ideal.

Another thing that's very encouraging about the Eglinton line is the size of the roadway. It's huge over large stretches. Making 2 dedicated lanes for LRTs would work extremely well, because it's a fast route and there's enough space for it, which is totally different than the uber-congested Spadina line streetcar. If you drive down Spadina, you're going at 15 km/hr. If you drive down Eglinton along those wide stretches, you're going at 60 km/hr. Furthermore, where Eglinton narrows, the LRT goes underground. In fact, it's a whopping 13 km underground. Effectively this line becomes a light subway in this region. Anything remotely like Spadina is going to be bypassed completely.

I can't say much about the other lines because I haven't read about them as much, but the Eglinton Crosstown LRT is a completely different kettle of fish compared to what you're used to with streetcar lines.

[Sealobo]

They should have kept expanding TTC since a gazillion years ago.

And Street Car is retarded... i believe it's a major factor of downtown congestion.

Nonetheless, Toronto is a great city.

[Eug]

Well, they just announced the design of the $1.1 billion update to the streetcar system. This is separate from the light rail system mentioned earlier, but it's possible these new streetcars will look similar to the LRT trains.

The winning bid was from Bombardier:



The only other bid was from Siemens:



Some differences include a low floor design so you don't have to go up stairs to get in, and a separate compartment for the driver, with automated doors and fare collection.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Province gives Toronto billions for Eglinton light rail line, transit plan



After a bazillion studies and maybe 20 years of dawdling, it seems the governments are finally going to move Toronto and the Greater Toronto Area into the 20th and 21st centuries. They've already set aside CAD$9 billion (US$7.2 billion) for this series of projects.

This transit expansion is not with subway, but mostly with electric light rail. I've used light rail in places like Boston and San Francisco. Those were a little too "light" for my tastes, but by the looks of it the new Toronto will be much more advanced, at least if the video is in any way accurate. I hope it's in the very least as nice as the one in Vancouver, but I'm hoping it's better than that too.

The most interesting will be the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, as it's going to be 31 km long, with 13 km in the middle underground, and it will connect to Toronto Pearson International Airport. That's all for a low, low price of $4 600 000 000. Too bad it's gonna take until 2016 before it's completed (at the earliest).

This will increase road traffic to a certain extent because of the lost driving lanes, but OTOH, perhaps it will eventually even things out because of the increased utilization along those corridors. It will also encourage residential and commercial building along those corridors. Right now there is too much low density commercial retail there, partially because it's zoned that way, but also partially because public transit isn't very good there at the moment.

At the top right is the Sheppard East LRT line, which (along with some of the other planned routes) was not funded in the original $9 billion. The original $9 billion is for the Eglinton Crosstown line, the Finch line, and updating the Scarborough RT, as well as some other projects.)



However, today, they announced the Sheppard East Light Rail Transit line, for $950 million. So, that brings the total to a little under $10 billion.

Some people are complaining because none of these lines are subway, but overall I still think it's great. The Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail line that was announced back in April is actually tunneled for much of the middle part, and some believe it will be built to be subway compatible. That would mean that in the future it could support subway, but only if the ridership justifies it (say >30 years from now).