Boys, I just got 4F7 and what? It sux. There is almost no speed-up anywehere, there is a slowdown everywhere. A few new features and now a new alpha? I thought apple had a stable base. Why rewriting the system? Menu Extras are applications. System Preferences is an application. DOck is an application. But the whole Memory management is crapped.

The heck 1) SJ SAID it is free. there was a note: IF YOU WANT A CD, I repeat: IF YOU WANT A CD, pay 20$.

There was no: BUY A CD FOR THE UPDATE or so.

IT WILL BE FREE, I asked the german Apple President, I asked other important people at apple, everybody says the same: IT IS FREE.

Support people SUCK. When Public Beta was released and I had some trouble I called apple support, they game me some options:
-pay 50$ for good support
-ask your question, get no answer and hang up

W O W

apple support sucked ever and it still does.

Steve

[frawgz]

Originally posted by SteveJobs:
<STRONG>Boys, I just got 4F7 and what? It sux. There is almost no speed-up anywehere, there is a slowdown everywhere. A few new features and now a new alpha? I thought apple had a stable base. Why rewriting the system? Menu Extras are applications. System Preferences is an application. DOck is an application. But the whole Memory management is crapped.

The heck 1) SJ SAID it is free. there was a note: IF YOU WANT A CD, I repeat: IF YOU WANT A CD, pay 20$.

There was no: BUY A CD FOR THE UPDATE or so.

IT WILL BE FREE, I asked the german Apple President, I asked other important people at apple, everybody says the same: IT IS FREE.

Support people SUCK. When Public Beta was released and I had some trouble I called apple support, they game me some options:
-pay 50$ for good support
-ask your question, get no answer and hang up

W O W

apple support sucked ever and it still does.

Steve</STRONG>

I just can't believe how Steve Jobs can still only be using 4F7!

[mactropolis]

omg! my first topik that has hit the 3 page milestone! whoppie!

---
I want my 10.1!

[M�lum]

Originally posted by frawgz:
<STRONG>

It was a joke, if you didn't catch the or the

Sheesh! </STRONG>

I was joking too.

I just don't use/ like smileys, too '90s for me.


JUST CONFIRMED!

X.1 will be downloadable for free from HOTLINE!
I heard from Apple that it will be on their Hotline site.
To get an account you have to click on 50 banners and give them all your valid email address and they'll send you the Login and Password.
You have to upload bug fixes, if not you'll be banned!


I thought it was a good idea to add some vital info to this topic.

[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: M�lum ]

[Since EBCDIC]

I was under the impression that Steve was demoing 5D15 at MacWorld NY 2001. Not so?

[Jamie_H]

There will not be a download. Apple says that the update is too large to have it downloadable of their servers. It will be a free update on CD. They will charge US$19.95 for postage and handling.

[CharlesS]

Apple had the new version of the developer tools available for download, and if I remember correctly, it was over 100 MB...

[theolein]

Originally posted by Jamie_H:
<STRONG>There will not be a download. Apple says that the update is too large to have it downloadable of their servers. It will be a free update on CD. They will charge US$19.95 for postage and handling.</STRONG>

Really sad, the price of a barbie and a couple of stubbies. What's a slab cost nowadays anyway?

[mumble]

Originally posted by [email protected]:
<STRONG>err, i did get laid this morning. but point taken. i've got work to do.</STRONG>

I checked with an Apple rep and he said you didn't, so who are we gonna believe?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by SteveJobs:
<STRONG>Boys, I just got 4F7 and what? It sux. There is almost no speed-up anywehere, there is a slowdown everywhere. A few new features and now a new alpha? I thought apple had a stable base. Why rewriting the system? Menu Extras are applications. System Preferences is an application. DOck is an application. But the whole Memory management is crapped.

The heck 1) SJ SAID it is free. there was a note: IF YOU WANT A CD, I repeat: IF YOU WANT A CD, pay 20$.

There was no: BUY A CD FOR THE UPDATE or so.

IT WILL BE FREE, I asked the german Apple President, I asked other important people at apple, everybody says the same: IT IS FREE.

Support people SUCK. When Public Beta was released and I had some trouble I called apple support, they game me some options:
-pay 50$ for good support
-ask your question, get no answer and hang up

W O W

apple support sucked ever and it still does.

Steve</STRONG>

Wby do I have this feeling it is the 10.0.4 update with a different version. Did you download off of Hotline?

Hmmm... everyone asked the Apple reps. Since when do the Apple reps at a trade show know about download policies and such. They're paid to know how to demo equipment - that's it.

Geez, I'll bet they all came to the no download conclusion over morning coffee before the show.

Jane: "Say Bob, do you think 10.x will be downloadable."
Bob; "I doubt it, Jane - it'd be way too big."
Jane: "Yeah, you're right - everyone will have to order a CD - it's way too big"
Fred, Joe, Pete, Mary, others: "Yeah, good point. It'll probably be only on CD."

And then they start telling show-goers what they think, and show-goers believe it as if it came from Steve Jobs himself.

It's still very possible that it will be downloadable. I've worked with some Apple engineers at trade events before - they don't get all of the info ahead of time. They get enough info to demo Apple's products.

And as for you people who are saying "but I have a modem so they won't make it downloadable." - well too bad for you! Why should the rest of us be punished when it doesn't put you at a disadvantage in the slightest? Modem users can order a CD, high speed users can download it. I fail to see a problem with this.

[BTP]

Steve Jobs-

I don't know what build you really have, but 5F7 was recent and 5F23 even more so. I can't say what the 4F builds were like; I don't know. I have 5F7, but I have not and may not install it. If I do, I'll let everyone know what it is like.

[ARENA]

I was under the impression that Steve was demoing 5D15 at MacWorld NY 2001. Not so?

Nope, Steve was using 5F25.
And I think the latest is 5F27...but I may be wrong about that.

[msuper69]

Originally posted by SteveJobs:
<STRONG>Boys, I just got 4F7 and what? It sux. There is almost no speed-up anywehere, there is a slowdown everywhere. A few new features and now a new alpha? I thought apple had a stable base. Why rewriting the system? Menu Extras are applications. System Preferences is an application. DOck is an application. But the whole Memory management is crapped.

The heck 1) SJ SAID it is free. there was a note: IF YOU WANT A CD, I repeat: IF YOU WANT A CD, pay 20$.

There was no: BUY A CD FOR THE UPDATE or so.

IT WILL BE FREE, I asked the german Apple President, I asked other important people at apple, everybody says the same: IT IS FREE.

Support people SUCK. When Public Beta was released and I had some trouble I called apple support, they game me some options:
-pay 50$ for good support
-ask your question, get no answer and hang up

W O W

apple support sucked ever and it still does.

Steve</STRONG>

...Now applying garbage disposal filter...

grind...grind...grind...

...garbage disposal complete...

I don't think 4F7 is a recent build. I heard it was dated June 12th.

I have my doubts about the update being freely distrubutable.

If it's an entire OS install, you would be able to install it on machines without Mac OS X... wouldn't you ...

So I think the CD will be only for personal keeps and no CD Duplication.

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>I am not paying $20 to fix Apple's total **** up. I will never pay $20 for OS X 10.1. I will drop Apple like a rock if they make me PAY FOR BUG FIXES AND FSCKING HARDWARE SUPPORT.

Apple are you reading this?</STRONG>

Scott, Mac OS X 10.0 was for early adopters. It was not meant for people who thought it would run perfectly.

Apple stated this, and if you bought it thinking that it'll solve all your problems, you are severely misguided.

Mac OS X will only start to 'rock' next when we have full support of all the developers, heaps of apps and mega cool hardware support .

[FAerrorTAL]

gorgonzola:

it's been a while, but is that quote in your sig from "the stranger"? neat book, messed with my head.

speaking of messing with heads, this is insane. I think I stopped reading the thread after 20 redundant posts. If it is a download, download it. If you can't buy it. If there is no download, there WILL be

peace, love, mac

aaron

Originally posted by Scott_H:
<STRONG>I am not paying $20 to fix Apple's total **** up. I will never pay $20 for OS X 10.1. I will drop Apple like a rock if they make me PAY FOR BUG FIXES AND FSCKING HARDWARE SUPPORT.

Apple are you reading this?</STRONG>

I'll gladly take your position as moderator. we don't need people like you threatening to defect every few threads. you knew what OS X was going to be from the start and complained non-stop (Rage Pro drivers anyone?). You knew what OS X was going to be (and what it wasn't). It was _YOUR_ choice, no one forced you to buy 10.0. Make Better Choices NeXT Tyme Scott.

Good-Buy.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Scott, Mac OS X 10.0 was for early adopters. It was not meant for people who thought it would run perfectly.

This is bullsh!t and you know it. Apple didn't put any warning labels on OS X boxes to dissuade potential buyers. Most Mac users don't follow every Mac Expo, every word that comes from Job's lips. They see the box, the "power of Unix" mantra, and their curiosity and expectations are piqued.

I even know someone who had a problem with an app in OS 9, so they bought OS X thinking that the problem would be solved! Really, most computer users know as little as possible about their computers, as little as it takes to get what they need done.

But I've also got another few cents to throw in...

1. Nobody is or was forced to buy and use OS X. OS 9 is fully functional, in my opinion it is the best consumer OS available and will remain so until OS X is polished.

2. You people need to learn patience. OS X is a highly complex operating system, and building such a system takes time. I see only positive signs from Apple. For starters, the new features in 10.1 prove to me that Apple is using customer feedback to an unprecedented extent in designing this OS. If Apple stays on course, then within a year, I predict that OS X's GUI will be as responsive as OS 9's, with the added feature of multitasking. If Apple optimizes scheduling and multitasking, then OS X should be as responsive as any other OS available.

3. OS X is STABLE. In fact if one cruises the net for OS X criticism, complaints about stability are few and far between. Since Apple's first priority in building OS X was stability, this shows that Apple can accomplish what they set out to do. I believe that we will see similar results with performance now that Apple has prioritized speed optimizations in OS X.

4. Finally, look at all of the important *nix developers that Apple is snatching up to work on the OS X project. This proves to me that Apple is fully committed to OS X, and that we will soon have an OS that totally rocks.

No, it will not be ready in a few weeks. More like a few months. If 10.1 is as good as rumors suggest, then X will finally be a viable alternative to OS 9. Then the next round of feature additions and performance optimizations should improve OS X to be far superior to OS 9.

In the meantime, what is so wrong with using OS 9? I use OS 9 for work, OS X for play...but I can see the time coming when I use only OS X. I'm not going to bitch because I like OS 9...it's the reason I paid such a premium for a Mac.

For those of you who bought Mac's with OS 9 and hate OS 9 too much to use it, I just don't know what to say. I'd hate to be in your shoes, that's for sure.

[moyashi]

DoH, it's not the money $20. It's the point that paying for update CDs for an update to a semi-finished product is a joke.

Apple, has humongous holes in it's system. Yes, it's stable but lacks fundamental support. Printers, APIs (ask any software developer), the gcc complier is screwed.

Maybe, Apple mentioned that this system was still in the works. Then why was the pre-beta $50 and yes, the $50 was applied to the final product OS X. final product ...

$20 for a regular OS update sure why not? OS 7,8,9 are products that have been developed and finished -- always needing fine tuning and work but any system is the same.

OSX is different it's a new product. This is typical Adobe. InDesign 1.0 and what was a $50 ??? update to 1.5 without printer support and guess what folks printer support came out as a beta thingy. hahaha

Now, let's scare you all a little. When I installed OS X I needed to connect to the net to Apple to continue. I was too lazy to find a work around. errr .... my problem.
And to add to this tid bit. I called Apple about ADSL support in Japan. First I talked to a "pretty good" English speaker but support being support -- useless but a cute voice. I called the Japanese operator -- the girl who only speaks Japanese knew what I was already calling about just by saying my phone number Big brother is watching folks. The Japanese speaker girl said that after I got peeved that the only information that Apple records is my name and phone number. She lied ... she knew why I was calling.

SO !!! screw the money send me my CD or CDs. Your system was incomplete and this wasn't mentioned, I want printer support. Hey Jobs where's my camera to throw across the stage. I'm as childish as you. I DON'T want DVD. I want my printer to work. I want a working equivolent to a toolbox. And I want gcc to compile.

Shipping charges should be considered in exchange for the information that you have been recording without my knowledge. Voice polygraph recognition is against my freedom of privacy. You have my information you want more money for an unfinished update to an unfinished system -- you must be joking.

But sadly to say like every other cokksukker company you'll get my money only if you sell it through a store available for release on the date that you release it. If not .... I'll have to really consider my options.

Too large to download, DOH you just don't want to pay akemi for your download bills.

hmmm an idea ... let's say you offer mulitply CDs with OSX.1 - OS9.2 - developers - webobjects - and - apple works then I'll wait for the shipping delay and pay you your goddddam shipping fee.

this is buLLsh/t

dont contact apple directly they'll waste your time on the phone and record your information.

[JLL]

Originally posted by moyashi:
<STRONG>I called Apple about ADSL support in Japan. First I talked to a "pretty good" English speaker but support being support -- useless but a cute voice. I called the Japanese operator -- the girl who only speaks Japanese knew what I was already calling about just by saying my phone number Big brother is watching folks. The Japanese speaker girl said that after I got peeved that the only information that Apple records is my name and phone number. She lied ... she knew why I was calling.</STRONG>

LOL She probably new what you were going to eat at dinner too!

[mactropolis]

Originally posted by moyashi:
<STRONG>
Now, let's scare you all a little. When I installed OS X I needed to connect to the net to Apple to continue. I was too lazy to find a work around. errr .... my problem.
And to add to this tid bit. I called Apple about ADSL support in Japan. First I talked to a "pretty good" English speaker but support being support -- useless but a cute voice. I called the Japanese operator -- the girl who only speaks Japanese knew what I was already calling about just by saying my phone number Big brother is watching folks. The Japanese speaker girl said that after I got peeved that the only information that Apple records is my name and phone number. She lied ... she knew why I was calling.
</STRONG>

"duh!" when you call Apple, their record you phone number, addr, etc. and save it. Its called a "Case Number" which is saved under your phone number. So the next time you call in, you just give them your phone numer, and then their can pull up your case numbers. No, it's not a privacy issue, its a convience. The first girl was wrong telling you their only collect your name and phone number; she probably was mistaken.

[Scott_H]

Originally posted by &lt;Daniel Canaris&gt;:
<STRONG>

Scott, Mac OS X 10.0 was for early adopters. It was not meant for people who thought it would run perfectly.

Apple stated this, and if you bought it thinking that it'll solve all your problems, you are severely misguided.

Mac OS X will only start to 'rock' next when we have full support of all the developers, heaps of apps and mega cool hardware support .</STRONG>

Thanks for telling me something I already know. No one expected OS X to be perfect. I'm sure eveyone was expecting Apple to update via software update (that is for free) to fill in the gaps.

Seems like http://www.macnews.de asked Apple Germany about the update and got confirmed that it won't be available for free. Hhmm.

[moyashi]

clarification on my big brother comment.

Ok point taken -- case number explanation. It was the second girl who said that only phone numbers and names are recorded. she never mentioned about case numbers or recording other information. If she was confused - mistaken - fine but then this is something apple support needs to train their support or at least remind them of.

Adding some food for thought. In Japan some companies use voice analyzers like the polygraph to register and actually record your change in voice -- I can't say about the actual conversation - but it does record the level of anger or irratiability.

Does Apple Japan use such a machine? I have no clue. This is Japan and privacy and laws regarding personal rights are not like in the states. Apple Japan has also told me that they don't necessarily follow all of Apple US regulations. The guy wouldn't give me his actual position but he definately wasn't the first line in apple support.

I still don't like that companies can record your information without asking or even telling you. Didn't intel try to do this with their built-in registration numbers as a convenience? So, case number or not, when a customer asks for what type of information is being recorded wouldn't it seem resonable to here the truth, especially if you really like that company?

[psu03bob]

I remember back during the InDesign controversy, I remember reading that a update was a free download, and an upgrade was not free. Check the Apple Mac OS X website it appears Apple is trying to pull the same stunt...

"Mac OS X version 10.1 will be available in September. An upgrade CD will be available to current Mac OS X users through the Mac OS Up-to-Date program."

While the Mac OS 9.1 download was called an updater. I think that Apple is trying to avoid some of the criticism of charging for an upgrade so soon after releasing the first version by using the Mac OS Up-to-Date program, and shipping and handling charges as an excuse. Perhaps everyone who thinks this does not qualify as a free update should complain to the Mac OS X Feedback form.

[IonCable]

For everyone complaining about the $20 for shipping and handling. You might want to remember that we got iTunes free, iMovie free, 4 updates free, free upgrade to saturday delivery on X when it was released, $30 discount if you bought the public beta. If Apple does release it as a download I would guess everyone will be bitching about the size and how long it takes to download. I remember people complaining about the 90 meg 9.1 update. $20 is very reasonable. FED EX alone is around $10-15 and then add in some packaging and paying the people doing the grunt work of shippng the out. Apple is NOT a charity, it's a company that has to cover its cost or it will be out of business. Quit being a cheap, pay the shipping or find a friend and split it, or a friend that will loan it. Is this that difficult? Forget the moral "they didn't ship a finished product" crap. They shipped a product that did everything they said it would (at shipping time).

[yannb]

Originally posted by mactropolis:
<STRONG>some web sites claim the OS X 10.0 -&gt; 10.1 update will be _only_ available on a free CD, but with 19.95 Shipping and handling charge. Yet others (the Reg) says it will be a completely free download AND free CD w/ S&H. Which one?</STRONG>

This comes from Apple's Learn & Earn website:
Will the Mac OS X v10.1 upgrade be available for registered users as a download from the Apple website?
You Chose: �� No, this upgrade will be available only on CD. The CD upgrade is free with a US$19.95 shipping and handling charge (*US price for information only*).

Feedback: �� Correct. Due to the large size of the upgrade, it will not be available to download from the Apple website. However, it will be available free on CD with a US$19.95 shipping and handling charge (*US price for information only*).

[iRebound]

From MacInTouch:

Jim Heid, contributing editor for Macworld, sent a note in response to the issue of pricing for Apple's Mac OS X 10.1 upgrade:

"In a post-keynote phone interview, Phil Schiller told me that 10.1 will not be available as a download. I specifically asked him about the conflicting info -- Jobs saying it would be free but Apple's press release saying it would be $19 -- and his reply was that the update is free, but the $19 covers Apple's costs.
��"His words: 'We literally upgraded every component of the Mac OS, and it is hundreds of megabytes and requires a CD for installation.' The same will apply to iDVD 2, he said."

[dfbennett]

Hmm. I'm not gonna complain about having to pay 20 bucks for 10.1 (I am a student so I got OS X for like 50 bucks anyway) but what I am mad about is that I won't be able to get it as soon as it's released. I wish I could download it (I have a T1 at school and Cable modem at home) and then I could burn it to a CD, but I guess I'm fine with the 20 dollar fee. I just hope I can get it quickly so I can have a more usable OS X soon.

[ink]

Originally posted by rogerkylin:
<STRONG>If the download is &gt; 100Mb, I'm sure apple's servers will be strained, but I'm sure they'll handle it. They seem to have some of the best download servers around. I don't know the 'real' terms, but when I was at my university, I was connected by 100T directly to a machine on the backbone of Oarnet, and I could get sustained 2Mb+ per second...

That is insanely fast...DOWNLOAD!!!!</STRONG>

And there's nothing to stop them from renting bandwidth from conexion or some other outfit. 10.1 requires classic 9.2, so this will be a big download. I'll probably end up buying it for convenience, but Apple should offer the download regardless.

[ink]

Originally posted by gorgonzola:
<STRONG>Actually, I'm pretty sure that it will NOT be available for download because Puma is not just an upgrade, it's a full OS install -- the update is too large to distribute over the web (seriously, it's the whole OS).

Unlikely that it will be downloadable, and frankly, for good reason.</STRONG>

Hmmm. Lemmie check here....

Yep. RedHat 7.1 is still on my server's FTP site:

# ls -l
total 2608951
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 233 Apr 16 00:19 MD5SUM
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 678244352 Apr 9 00:08 seawolf-i386-SRPMS.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 672518144 Apr 9 00:06 seawolf-i386-disc1.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 668551168 Apr 9 00:07 seawolf-i386-disc2.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 641806336 Apr 23 13:49 seawolf-i386-powertools.iso

That's 4 CDs of information that I downloaded over a cable modem. Microsoft is seeding RC2 for Windows XP over FTP. What's Apple's problem? They don't have the bandwidth that RedHat does?!?

Originally posted by ink:
<STRONG>

Hmmm. Lemmie check here....

Yep. RedHat 7.1 is still on my server's FTP site:

# ls -l
total 2608951
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 233 Apr 16 00:19 MD5SUM
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 678244352 Apr 9 00:08 seawolf-i386-SRPMS.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 672518144 Apr 9 00:06 seawolf-i386-disc1.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 668551168 Apr 9 00:07 seawolf-i386-disc2.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 641806336 Apr 23 13:49 seawolf-i386-powertools.iso

That's 4 CDs of information that I downloaded over a cable modem. Microsoft is seeding RC2 for Windows XP over FTP. What's Apple's problem? They don't have the bandwidth that RedHat does?!?</STRONG>

Lets see.... Over 300,000 users downloading at least 1 Gig of data all at the same time. Not to mention i think the install has to be booted from so the users would have to burn the CD anyways.

[SkullMacPN]

Originally posted by SteveJobs:
<STRONG>The heck 1) SJ SAID it is free. there was a note: IF YOU WANT A CD, I repeat: IF YOU WANT A CD, pay 20$.

There was no: BUY A CD FOR THE UPDATE or so.</STRONG>

...

Did you watch the stream? Watch it again. Look at the screen behind setve as he announced 10.1 will be free. Notice this line?
"*$20 Shipping and Handling"

Why were all the apple reps @ MW saying it would not be downloadable? Why are Apple Execs saying it will not be downloadable?

Its going to be a 300 MB+ download. Not only is that far too much for anyone except the most blessed Cable or DSL user, it puts an extrodinary strain and cost (in bandwidth) on Apple's servers.

[ink]

Originally posted by &lt;Pepper&gt;:
<STRONG>
Lets see.... Over 300,000 users downloading at least 1 Gig of data all at the same time. Not to mention i think the install has to be booted from so the users would have to burn the CD anyways.</STRONG>

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be prudent to buy the $20 CD (I will), I'm just saying that they should offer it for free to those that want to spend the time doing it. As for the bootable CD excuse; the worst case scenario would be to install the new kernel and a software installer and then have the user reboot into that to install 10.1. I doubt they'd even have to do that considering 10.0.x updates pretty much touched every critical section of the OS -- unless there are some big filesystem changes (doubtful).