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Is Research in Motion Dead?
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Eyenigma
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Jul 3, 2010, 08:00 PM
 
With all the talk of antenna-gate, and the obvious flaws of the iPhone 4, Apple is still in the envious position of swimming through poop and still smelling like roses. It's clearly a two horse race now with Apple and Android clearly leading the way. So with that said, where is $RIMM in all of this? Is it just me or has Blackberry suddenly become one of the "also rans," in the smart phone industry.

Before I get lambasted, I'm sure someone will astutely reply that they're still prevalent in corporate settings, and legacy infrastructures... Okay, fair enough. But for how long? It would seem that the only way for Blackberry to remain a viable entity is for them to become strictly a hardware company.

Even that may not save a once powerful company. I don't know about you guys, but I think $RIMM is a great short play. I see it going the way of Palm sooner than later.
     
turtle777
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Jul 3, 2010, 08:28 PM
 
M$ will buy RIM and crate the KinBerry.

That'll be the end of it.

-t
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 3, 2010, 08:46 PM
 
Claiming RIMs death now is a little like Microsoft folk claiming Apple's demise in the '90s
     
imitchellg5
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Jul 3, 2010, 10:22 PM
 
In late 2009, Fortune Magazine found RIM to be one of the fastest growing corporations in the world. They're acquiring companies like crazy, at a nearly Apple-like pace. They're completely redesigning their operating system.

RIM itself is hardly dead. At this point, Blackberry is dead as a consumer device, but they still own the enterprise market.
     
Salty
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Jul 3, 2010, 11:11 PM
 
I'm not entirely sure what to think of RIM. There's a lot of there that will take a long time to die even if the stay on their current heading. As of April when I quit my job at Rogers we were still selling more BlackBerries than we were selling Android handsets. Now that may change but the fact is that RIM always has the option of switching to Android and simply porting their push email system on top of Android. So BlackBerry OS could be doomed, but RIM wouldn't necessarily be.

On that note they have some of the best keyboard layouts on the market, the Curve keyboard is still damned comfortable, and they used to have some really high quality hardware.

Overall I think RIM is headed toward some really hard times that they're gonna have to bounce back from, and potentially get some major leadership shakeups going on. My hope is that they're seriously working on overhauling their OS, preferably building it on top of Unix or Linux, throw in some really good capacitive displays and you're set. Sure it'll cost em a lot to produce but it's better than losing the market. My guess is you'll begin to see them move back to being an enterprise level phone, they'll be lucky to be a 20% player.
     
mduell
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Jul 4, 2010, 01:50 PM
 
Yea, RIM is totally dead, a mere zombie outselling iPhone and Android combined how-many-to-one?

Instead of chasing the latest jiggahertz ARM on roids CPU, they're making phones that can actually go a few days without hitting the charger. And features like UMA for calling on wifi to avoid roaming.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jul 4, 2010, 06:27 PM
 
RIM has enormous mindshare in the corporate world. If they die, it will be very, very slow.

The question for RIM is whether to bother investing in the consumer market or not. Some execs are demanding an iPhone instead of a BB. Does this mean RIM needs a BB as good as an iPhone simply to compete in the corporate world?
     
Langdon
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Jul 4, 2010, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Does this mean RIM needs a BB as good as an iPhone simply to compete in the corporate world?
In the corporate world, no. BB in that regard are tools not entertainment devices.
If a company is covering the costs of the plan and device it remains in their best interest to order only phones for their employees that serve the functions that pertain to their jobs not ones that can double as toys.

Touch screen BB Storms were not as widely adapted in corporate settings as much as the traditional BB phone models simply because the additional features they provided did not add functionality for corporate uses.

That doesn't mean RIM should not keep trying to make in roads into the consumer market and then transfer successful innovations from those devices across their whole line but for the corporate customer a Blackberry doesn't need to match the iPhone on an one on one feature faceoff.
     
PB2K
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Jul 5, 2010, 03:45 AM
 
i enjoy my BB bold so much ! it's complete as a swiss armyknife
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Jul 5, 2010, 03:47 AM
 
RIM isn't dying. Blackberries are synonymous with mobile email in the minds of a great many people. iPhones are marketed as either a widescreen iPod or as a platform for all those mobile apps - not quite the same thing.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 5, 2010, 05:36 AM
 
RIM is not in trouble now, but they know they could be in trouble if they don't adapt to the changing environment. I was surprised to let HP snatch Palm away from them. They know they need a real OS and the current breed of touch-based Blackberrys don't cut it. My friend has one: it's quite counterintuitive at times, there is no app ecosystem, etc.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Phileas
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Jul 5, 2010, 06:34 AM
 
The current BB OS is a joke. I installed a twitter client on a BB some weeks ago, the experience was painful in the extreme.

I owned a BB about three years back, I hated it so much that I returned it after four weeks and decided to wait for the iPhone.
     
PB2K
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Jul 5, 2010, 07:09 AM
 
I hate the "Marimba" ringtone.
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mduell
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Jul 5, 2010, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The current BB OS is a joke. I installed a twitter client on a BB some weeks ago, the experience was painful in the extreme.
I had the same experience. I wanted to search for a term on twitter so I pulled up the mobile site and it wanted me to login. I don't have a login, I just want to search tweets. So I tried the app. Same deal, you must login. Horrible mobile experience.
     
Eyenigma  (op)
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Jul 5, 2010, 02:21 PM
 
i say RIMM is a good short, and sure - in the minds of dinosaurs and IT people at stodgy corporations it's (still) a viable device. But asked another way... how many people in here would actually buy a Blackberry? Once Android gets adopted for its open source capabilities by corporations, I think RIMM is in real hot water.

Plus if the (new) rumors are true and $VZ actually does get the iPhone? Why would ANYONE buy anything other than an Android or iPhone? $RIMM needs a big leap forward... soon.
( Last edited by Eyenigma; Jul 5, 2010 at 02:24 PM. Reason: Added another point)
     
Phileas
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Jul 5, 2010, 02:27 PM
 
I don't think companies care about open source. They care about security, predictability and ease of support.

Android is facing huge issues with fragmentation. I don't know just how many flavours of Android are in existence right now, but it's way too many. Until the day that there's a standard, Android will be an also run in the business world.
     
Person Man
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Jul 5, 2010, 05:06 PM
 
Please use the actual company names and not their stock tickers and for God's sake don't link to the stock prices. Makes your posts look "spammish"
     
mduell
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Jul 5, 2010, 05:33 PM
 
Is Symbian dead too?
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 5, 2010, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The current BB OS is a joke. I installed a twitter client on a BB some weeks ago, the experience was painful in the extreme.

I owned a BB about three years back, I hated it so much that I returned it after four weeks and decided to wait for the iPhone.
The current BB OS is a joke when compared to the iPhone in the market for which the iPhone was designed: the consumer market. However, go to a market where users *aren't* installing Twitter apps and are instead concerned about sending and receiving emails over an Exchange network and booking meetings, meeting rooms and meeting room resources, and the iPhone becomes the joke.

BlackBerry was never a consumer focused product. iPhone isn't yet a proper corporate product.
     
shiff
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Jul 6, 2010, 10:29 PM
 
The iPhone is a great product but it is not yet ready for a large, secure enterprise environment. I hope one day it will be, but I cannot imagine switching my 75000 Blackberries to iPhones. I am not saying the Blackberry is perfect, but it does have the necessary tools available for large scale enterprise deployment and use. The iPhone, currently, does not.
     
chabig
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Jul 6, 2010, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by shiff View Post
The iPhone is a great product but it is not yet ready for a large, secure enterprise environment.
Translation: I'm an IT guy and the iPhone won't let me enslave you and lock down your phone to my liking.
     
imitchellg5
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Jul 7, 2010, 12:09 AM
 
There are more reasons than that. For instance, security. And how you can plug an iPhone into a Linux machine and access any information you want.
     
Eyenigma  (op)
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Jul 7, 2010, 02:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Please use the actual company names and not their stock tickers and for God's sake don't link to the stock prices. Makes your posts look "spammish"
Okay fair enough, was done more to simply illustrate the downward trend of the companies in question. I can gather my ideas seem like lunacy. It would be like suggesting Palm would die just after mass adoption of the "Pilot" in the late 90's.

No doubt, Research in Motion has mass adoption, but the shelf life of a smart phone is a couple years at most for virtually anyone. It would seem the tipping point for Research in Motion's demise is just corporations adopting iPhones or Android.

And while we're at it, Nokia and Motorola are hanging on by threads too. It's baffling these companies have just rolled over and died. Powerhouses that have gone the way of Blockbuster Video and Circuit City. Dinosaurs.
( Last edited by Eyenigma; Jul 7, 2010 at 02:53 AM. Reason: Typo)
     
Langdon
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Jul 7, 2010, 05:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eyenigma View Post
It would seem the tipping point for Research in Motion's demise is just corporations adopting iPhones or Android.
Possibly.
But I don't foresee the iPhone as we know it now being a game changer in that respect. One because it would have to be sold by the top 3 carriers for widespread corporate adoption. Two, it would have be able to be managed from something other than iTunes as I don't believe every company wants it slapped onto their business owned machines. And lastly the touch screen is not always preferred over traditional keypads by all business users. The one model fits all premise that Apple pushes in this respect is problematic if they want to serve the business market.

I am really surprised so many people have a hard time understanding that these smartphones don't compete for the same customers in every case.
     
shiff
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Jul 7, 2010, 07:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
Translation: I'm an IT guy and the iPhone won't let me enslave you and lock down your phone to my liking.
There are many more reasons then that. Anyone that has ever worked in a large scale telecommunications deployment will totally understand. If you have not had to deal with that then you will not.
     
blackstar
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Jul 11, 2010, 12:14 PM
 
I use a blackberry on Verizon. All I want my phone to do is do phone calls and check emails. The last thing I want is a trendy phone with a touch screen. I guess there is still a market for blackberrys...
     
ort888
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Jul 11, 2010, 12:28 PM
 
Not buying a phone because it's trendy is just as bad as buying a phone because it's trendy.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
Steve Bosell
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Jul 11, 2010, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post

BlackBerry was never a consumer focused product. iPhone isn't yet a proper corporate product.
I disagree, I am a BES admin, and it leaves much to be desired. Corporate users want to run web apps remotely, impossible with the POS BB browser, and the VPN functionality with BES stinks. As fror email, from a licensing, ease of use, and SECURITY (IMHO I hate relying on the centralized RIM NOC) I much prefer the OWA/Active Sync model. Everything about RIM is dated, plus the BES software itself is sucks, it requires constant attention, is expensive and requires periodic exchange reboots. Try running a WebEx meeting on a Storm LOL!
     
blackstar
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Jul 11, 2010, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
Not buying a phone because it's trendy is just as bad as buying a phone because it's trendy.
I am not not buying it because it's trendy. I am not buying it because it does not have a physical keyboard.
     
Phileas
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Jul 11, 2010, 04:46 PM
 
Not having a physical keyboard is one of the things that made the iPhone as successful as it is.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 11, 2010, 05:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Bosell View Post
I disagree, I am a BES admin, and it leaves much to be desired. Corporate users want to run web apps remotely, impossible with the POS BB browser, and the VPN functionality with BES stinks.
What apps are corporate users wanting to run?
     
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Jul 11, 2010, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
What apps are corporate users wanting to run?
So called production line apps, ie apps that were designed for a specific company or a specific business - either they were devloped internally, or by an external company but sold to a very small number of customers. They are also often designed for IE6, one of the reasons that that browser refuses to die.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Phileas
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Jul 11, 2010, 09:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
What apps are corporate users wanting to run?
Remote meetings, doc sharing and slideshows mostly.
     
Steve Bosell
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Jul 12, 2010, 12:20 AM
 
The iPhone actually does pretty well running old POS web apps. It is ironic that the Blackberry was once a cutting edge device, now is hopelessly behind the times. Another example of bean counters running the company, the fact that you are required to run BES to allow users to sync their calendar on a BB is pitiful. Have you ever looked into developing an app for the Blackberry, there are a dozen SDKs, a complete cluster f.
     
Brien
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Jul 12, 2010, 01:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
RIM is not in trouble now, but they know they could be in trouble if they don't adapt to the changing environment. I was surprised to let HP snatch Palm away from them. They know they need a real OS and the current breed of touch-based Blackberrys don't cut it. My friend has one: it's quite counterintuitive at times, there is no app ecosystem, etc.
Yeah. NOKIA, RIM etcetera probably don't feel they need to buy an OS. NOKIA just killed Symbian after how many years of uselessness? The N8 and the BlackBerry Storm were mediocre but part of me thinks they're not really interested in taking on Android/iOS.

HP buying Palm was a waste, though. Unless HP proves me wrong, e.g. webOS tablet that doesn't suck.
     
Paco500
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Jul 12, 2010, 07:23 AM
 
I'd kind of like to see a BB client app for the iPhone. The way BB does exchange is still rock solid. As I recall, BB at one time released client apps on other OSs, don't remember if it was palm, winmob or symbian, but it existed.

However, it would likely mean a severe cannibalization of their HW business.
     
Laminar
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Jul 12, 2010, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Bosell View Post
Have you ever looked into developing an app for the Blackberry, there are a dozen SDKs, a complete cluster f.
Their app store is poor and most games are $5-20. Yeah right.
     
Eyenigma  (op)
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Aug 23, 2010, 01:39 PM
 
When I say it... it's lunacy. But how about when CNN says it:

The Buzz: Is RIM a screaming bargain or the next Palm? - Aug. 23, 2010

Research in Motion is screwed.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:04 PM
 
Call me a luddite, or an optimist, or completely out-of-touch, or a solid thinker - I have no clue which applies:

I still fail to understand how stock price is a measure of a company's success.

I mean, we're all Apple users. How can it be that there are people here for whom it isn't painfully obvious that market share and stock price mean very little about the "success" of a company? There was a time when Apple's stock value was like a quarter of their actual assets, and they weren't in debt.

It's ironic that CNN paints the iPhone's competitors' makers as "failures" because they don't have the market share or the market cap of a company that only got to where it was because they explicitly DID NOT care about these things, insisting instead on making solid products with solid margins.
     
Eug
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:10 PM
 
I think RIM could continue to dominate... if they get their heads out of their asses. Apple's approach right now is not to do a hardcore attack on the enterprise market. If they did I'd think RIM would be totally screwed, because RIM's product need serious updating.

However, since Apple isn't attacking enterprise as much as they could, that could allow RIM to maintain that advantage in the enterprise market... but only if they get their heads out of their asses.

As for stock price... it's an indication of the general impression investors have of the company. If the stock price is in the dumps, then obviously investors feel the company is not worth that much, and it's often true that the company is at the edge of bankruptcy. Sometimes it isn't, but in the case of Apple, it was still in very dodgy territory. OS X 10.1 was an experiment. One that ultimately succeeded with flying colours, but few investors would have been as confident about OS X 10.1 as Jobs was.
     
Eyenigma  (op)
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:10 PM
 
Because for one, stock price is a direct measure (or reflection) of current, and future earnings. I think the litmus test is if anyone here would ever buy another Blackberry again. I think with their failed torch or whatever it is - the company is in a VERY tough position. It's turning in to a two horse race now between Android and Apple. The mighty have fallen indeed. First Palm, and now Reasearch in Motion in tow.
     
Eyenigma  (op)
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I think RIM could continue to dominate... if they get their heads out of their asses.
No way in hell. Without an app platform, RIM will be out of business in 5 years. (Acquired or Imploded). There's just no room for a device that (just) does the obvious anymore.
     
Eug
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:16 PM
 
Palm died 6 years ago.

RIM isn't dead yet. It might hit the turning point in a couple of years, but IMO it hasn't hit that yet.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eyenigma View Post
Because for one, stock price is a direct measure (or reflection) of current, and future earnings.
It's also a direct reflection of what some jackass wrote in some dumb blog article, and of tech-clueless people fearing for their money or running on hype.

Sorry, but stock prices have more to do with psychology than earnings.
     
Eug
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
It's also a direct reflection of what some jackass wrote in some dumb blog article, and of tech-clueless people fearing for their money or running on hype.

Sorry, but stock prices have more to do with psychology than earnings.
No argument there. Unfortunately though psychology can make or break a company.

In the case of RIM though, I think there is something to those blog articles, because I to a certain extent feel the same way.

I never quite understood the draw of the BB, but the one thing they did well was to cater to the pro enterprise market with pro type features. However, they are starting to lose that grasp, and are also trying to enter the consumer market in a bigger way, but failing miserably. They remind me of a corporate suit trying to be cool, but getting laughed at by the truly cool, while pissing off other suits.
     
turtle777
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Sorry, but stock prices have more to do with psychology than earnings.
Fair enough.

The psychology says "RIM is doomed!"

-t
     
Laminar
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eyenigma View Post
No way in hell. Without an app platform, RIM will be out of business in 5 years.
They have an app store. It blows, but it's there.
     
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Aug 23, 2010, 03:49 PM
 
Every time I turn my BlackBerry on, it reminds me of Silicon Graphics; and you know how well that did end.
     
imitchellg5
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Aug 23, 2010, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
They have an app store. It blows, but it's there.
They're working on version 2.0 as we speak.
     
turtle777
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Aug 23, 2010, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
They're working on version 2.0 as we speak.
Well, we don't.

We type.

RIM is doomed.

-t
     
   
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