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Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by wolfen

I feel and pray for the families, lovers, and friends who are left behind with the loss. I can relate to that suffering.

Whether man or woman, one of the greatest traits you can acquire in life is compassion. There isn't much difference between a stranger and a loved one, really. You'd be surprised how little you know about the people you love, and how much you could guess about people you don't know.

I think compassion is hardest for people who don't have any way of dealing with the emotions that stir up. Praying for the families of those people feels good, helps me grow in compassion, and doesn't hurt anybody else. It can help you grow stronger in your ability to deal with tough emotions -- which will be needed when someone you care about is suffering.

You edited your post before I replied to it.

Initially, your first line of response was "I do [seriously grieve over a bunch of strangers]."

I'm glad you reneged that comment, because no, you don't. You obviously realise that too, now.

Anyone here that takes the day off work, cries, is comforted by those around them, and feels a black hole inside them where something important used to be - every time somebody, anybody, dies - you can say you "grieve" for them.

If you're not in that camp, then you're not grieving at all. Get over it - it doesn't make you heartless.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:43 PM

Well, it looks like I'm outwitted here. Oh, open up a dictionary and look up sarcasm.

centerchannel68 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

You're a ****ing moron.

Has any, single person in this thread, other than you, said anything even remotely like being happy about this? No.

Get a ****ing grip and learn to read.

I would not disagree with your opinion. I will also point out that said opinion is of a guy who likes sports enough to use them in his sig, probably has other sports crap all over his house, and he drives an SUV. To me, these all fit together perfectly.

finboy · Apr 17, 2007, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster

According to CNN it's the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history.

I guess Native Americans don't count.

Good point. Wounded Knee came to mind.

centerchannel68 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:47 PM

Dude if he had a gun, and I didn't, I'm pretty sure I'd be running out the door, unless he was holding somebody of value to me. Now, if I ALSO had a gun, that's a different story.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

You edited your post before I replied to it.

Initially, your first line of response was "I do [seriously grieve over a bunch of strangers]."

I'm glad you reneged that comment, because no, you don't. You obviously realise that too, now.

Anyone here that takes the day off work, cries, is comforted by those around them, and feels a black hole inside them where something important used to be - every time somebody, anybody, dies - you can say you "grieve" for them.

If you're not in that camp, then you're not grieving at all. Get over it - it doesn't make you heartless.

And you were made the Feeling and Thought Police by whom?

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

Well, it looks like I'm outwitted here. Oh, open up a dictionary and look up sarcasm.

There's sarcasm, and there's hyperbole. You seem to be the overly sensitive one on this issue, so perhaps you should look up the latter of those two words and refrain from posting if you're so emotionally involved to claim we're dancing around fires roasting marshmallows.

finboy · Apr 17, 2007, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by UNTeMac

I want to know what the hell the police were doing while the guy ran around Norris hall shooting people FOR THIRTY MINUTES! That is unconscionable. Response time on my campus was usually around a minute or two by call box or 911. I cannot believe that guy was allowed to walk around for that long during the second shooting.

They were "forming a perimeter" or "cordoning off the area" or somesuch. This is part of the great fallacy -- police are there to prevent this kind of thing, through a show of force ex ante, and draw chalk outline ex post. Their role in stopping it in progress will always be nil.

Again, I don't know what I would actually do. I'd like to think that some folks would try to resist this guy and disarm him to save lives of others.

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

And you were made the Feeling and Thought Police by whom?

I'm imposing no view, simply enlightening somebody who is mistaken about what they're actually feeling. You seem fond of dictionaries - look up 'grief' and tell me I'm wrong.

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

I would not disagree with your opinion. I will also point out that said opinion is of a guy who likes sports enough to use them in his sig, probably has other sports crap all over his house, and he drives an SUV. To me, these all fit together perfectly.

Indeed. Unfortunately, generalisations are often accepted because they are, generally, true.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

I would not disagree with your opinion. I will also point out that said opinion is of a guy who likes sports enough to use them in his sig, probably has other sports crap all over his house, and he drives an SUV. To me, these all fit together perfectly.

Dude, will you get off the SUV and sports thing? You act like a 4th grader.

centerchannel68 · 02:10 PM

And you were made the Feeling and Thought Police by whom?

By nobody. YOU SAID that you were grieving over these people. You ATTACKED me for not 'grieving'. Now your limited vernacular (You drive an SUV too! haha) is starting to realize what 'grieving' actually means, and you're starting to change your tune, admitting that you aren't GRIEVING over these people.

So you attacked me, and others, because you didn't know what the hell 'grieving' meant. Now that you do, instead of apologizing or admitting you were wrong, you start saying stupid crap like 'its called sarcasm look it up' or 'who made you the feeling police'.... good christ. You make no sense. Neither does your vehicle. Just go turn on TV and watch some sports.

GET HTE BALL! WIN TEH GAME! DAAHHHHHH YAY DEY WIN TEH GAME YAY YAAAAYYYYY ME DRIVE OFFROAD VEHICLE ITS STRONG AND TOUGH LIKE MOMMY I GET THE BALL AND WIN THE GAME WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Snow-i · Apr 17, 2007, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

Only if you know them. If they're strangers, I think you need to start seeing a shrink.

Then who do you expect to give 2 shits about you when you get hit by an SUV?

wolfen · Apr 17, 2007, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

You edited your post before I replied to it.

Initially, your first line of response was "I do [seriously grieve over a bunch of strangers]."

I'm glad you reneged that comment, because no, you don't. You obviously realise that too, now.

I truly didn't see it as a renege, but as a clarification.

In my "belief system" the dead are actually alive and well in The Beyond. Grieving for them doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But I feel great sadness (that I would say qualifies for grief) for the pain among the living relatives of these people. I grieve shattered relationships and hollowed out parents.

I'm not someone who thinks we should feel something every time there's bad news. It's too much to expect. Frankly when 9/11 happened I was barely phased -- and I grew up in NYC. I experienced it as a political event.

But someone has serious emotional immaturity if they never feel sadness for any of the horrors that humanity inflicts on itself. I expect that in the teens who frequent the Lounge, but hope for more in grown adults.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

I'm imposing no view, simply enlightening somebody who is mistaken about what they're actually feeling. You seem fond of dictionaries - look up 'grief' and tell me I'm wrong.

So you're a shrink now? Which is it? You don't even know what I look like or what I do for a living, so I really don't think you are qualified to tell me what I'm thinking. If so, what am I thinking now?

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

By nobody. YOU SAID that you were grieving over these people. You ATTACKED me for not 'grieving'. Now your limited vernacular (You drive an SUV too! haha) is starting to realize what 'grieving' actually means, and you're starting to change your tune, admitting that you aren't GRIEVING over these people.

So you attacked me, and others, because you didn't know what the hell 'grieving' meant. Now that you do, instead of apologizing or admitting you were wrong, you start saying stupid crap like 'its called sarcasm look it up' or 'who made you the feeling police'.... good christ. You make no sense. Neither does your vehicle. Just go turn on TV and watch some sports.

GET HTE BALL! WIN TEH GAME! DAAHHHHHH YAY DEY WIN TEH GAME YAY YAAAAYYYYY ME DRIVE OFFROAD VEHICLE ITS STRONG AND TOUGH LIKE MOMMY I GET THE BALL AND WIN THE GAME WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Third grader?

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

GET HTE BALL! WIN TEH GAME! DAAHHHHHH YAY DEY WIN TEH GAME YAY YAAAAYYYYY ME DRIVE OFFROAD VEHICLE ITS STRONG AND TOUGH LIKE MOMMY I GET THE BALL AND WIN THE GAME WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Man, I know people won't appreciate that... but ****ing spot on.

centerchannel68 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

Dude, will you get off the SUV and sports thing? You act like a 4th grader.

I'm not the one using the wrong definition of words, attacking those that disagree with me by making things up like 'roasting marshmellows on 9/11', and making idiotic statements like 'thought police' and 'sarcasm look it up'.

Read your own posts. You sound like a freakin' 4th grader. Also, 4th graders love to GET TEH BALL AND WIN THE GAME YAAYYYYYYYYYYY

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Snow-i

Then who do you expect to give 2 shits about you when you get hit by an SUV?

His homeroom teacher?

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

Third grader?

No response to him?

Snow-i · Apr 17, 2007, 01:56 PM

have they released the names of the victims yet?

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

I'm not the one using the wrong definition of words, attacking those that disagree with me by making things up like 'roasting marshmellows on 9/11', and making idiotic statements like 'thought police' and 'sarcasm look it up'.

Read your own posts. You sound like a freakin' 4th grader. Also, 4th graders love to GET TEH BALL AND WIN THE GAME YAAYYYYYYYYYYY

Now you're using the "I'm rubber and you're glue..." argument.

centerchannel68 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:57 PM

Maybe your gym teacher? Where you win the game by gettin ghte ball? He drives big tough suv? yaaayyyy!

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Snow-i

have they released the names of the victims yet?

I saw some, maybe 10.

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

Now you're using the "I'm rubber and you're glue..." argument.

And you still haven't responded to a thing he's said.

You obviously have nothing worthwhile to say.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

Maybe your gym teacher? Where you win the game by gettin ghte ball? He drives big tough suv? yaaayyyy!

You're a waste of bandwidth.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

And you still haven't responded to a thing he's said.

You obviously have nothing worthwhile to say.

What, about the sports thing or the SUV thing?

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

What, about the sports thing or the SUV thing?

The fact that you don't actually have a damn clue what you're talking about. Well, nevermind, deny or ignore it as you will everybody else that's still reading the crap in here is well aware of your ignorance.

RAILhead · Apr 17, 2007, 02:02 PM

kmkkid · Apr 17, 2007, 02:03 PM

32 innocent people die, and all you people can do is argue like school kids in a thread that should be full of prayers and well wishes for the families of the victems. For shame.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

The fact that you don't actually have a damn clue what you're talking about. Well, nevermind, deny or ignore it as you will everybody else that's still reading the crap in here is well aware of your ignorance.

You charge by the hour, doc? What do I owe you?

Me, ignorant? I don't think so. You, High and Mighty, are trying to tell me and some others how I'm grieving. I already said I wasn't bawling my eyes out and losing sleep over it. I said I felt sympathy towards them and their loved ones. Maybe you should go back and read MY posts.

wolfen · Apr 17, 2007, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

32 innocent people die, and all you people can do is argue like school kids in a thread that should be full of prayers and well wishes for the families of the victems. For shame.

I agree. But remember that everyone deals with tragedy in their own way. If you've got very few emotional responses to choose from, you'll lean heavily on the ones you've mastered. For some people that means anger and violence.

His Dudeness · Apr 17, 2007, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

32 innocent people die, and all you people can do is argue like school kids in a thread that should be full of prayers and well wishes for the families of the victems. For shame.

Well, there's two people here that think they have the right to dictate how and when and why people can grieve, and whether or not they are even allowed to. And if you do, you are labeled as mentally insane, or some such ****. I'm just saying I have sympathy towards the whole thing, and all I get is this ranting about me liking sports and driving an SUV. It always comes down to the SUV. You could be the President, but if you drive an SUV, watch out! Cash will come after you!

kmkkid · Apr 17, 2007, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

Well, there's two people here that think they have the right to dictate how and when and why people can grieve, and whether or not they are even allowed to. And if you do, you are labeled as mentally insane, or some such ****. I'm just saying I have sympathy towards the whole thing, and all I get is this ranting about me liking sports and driving an SUV. It always comes down to the SUV. You could be the President, but if you drive an SUV, watch out! Cash will come after you!

Hmmm what did my grade 2 teacher say again? "Ignore it"

There is a time and place for everything, this isn't the time nor place

RAILhead · Apr 17, 2007, 02:10 PM

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

Well, there's two people here that think they have the right to dictate how and when and why people can grieve, and whether or not they are even allowed to. And if you do, you are labeled as mentally insane, or some such ****. I'm just saying I have sympathy towards the whole thing, and all I get is this ranting about me liking sports and driving an SUV. It always comes down to the SUV. You could be the President, but if you drive an SUV, watch out! Cash will come after you!

You're not grieving, that's the point.

Grieve when and where you want - all we're letting you know is that you're not grieving right now, by definition... and if you are, it's not mentally healthy.

If you don't like the petty arguments going on in here, leave the thread. It's as simple as that. Prayers and well-wishing would have been far more appriate before the 32 people died, if that's your thing. It's too late for them now.

Hell, if that makes me sound like an asshole, whatever. At least I'm an informed asshole.

Originally Posted by wolfen

I agree. But remember that everyone deals with tragedy in their own way. If you've got very few emotional responses to choose from, you'll lean heavily on the ones you've mastered. For some people that means anger and violence.

Again, all you can do is dis other people. Good job.

centerchannel68 · Apr 17, 2007, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

You charge by the hour, doc? What do I owe you?

Me, ignorant? I don't think so. You, High and Mighty, are trying to tell me and some others how I'm grieving. I already said I wasn't bawling my eyes out and losing sleep over it. I said I felt sympathy towards them and their loved ones. Maybe you should go back and read MY posts.

We have all already said we feel sympathy, but we won't 'grieve' over people we don't know. Doofy, Cipher, Voodoo and I have all said that. We have not said that we're happy about it, or anything else. We've just stated we don't GRIEVE for people we don't know.

But yes, let's go back and look at YOUR posts:

"Man, you guys are really heartless bastards. And besides, grieving doesn't mean bawling your eyes out and screaming and carrying on like you're on a tv talk show. Have you people no sympathy at all?

I bet you guys danced and roasted marshmallows on 9/11, right? I bet that was a day of great great joy to you people. I've never seen or heard other people criticizing others for showing grief or sympathy.

Man, you guys are pure evil here on the boards. Now go back to your bright cheery day"

Yep. Says volumes about you. So does your SUV. And your fanaticism.

BlueSky · Apr 17, 2007, 02:16 PM

Good grief.

RAILhead · Apr 17, 2007, 02:20 PM

Everyone needs to calm down. Start here:

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...uper-pic-orgy/

wolfen · Apr 17, 2007, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

Again, all you can do is dis other people. Good job.

No. You are demonstrating the truth of it by misinterpreting me and being acerbic. I wasn't insulting anyone.

Do you think children always react to loss in a mature way? Of course not. Why? Because they haven't developed the ability to respond to emotionally complex situations. Tragedy is a very complex event in the realm of emotion.

Part of military training, for example, is to narrow the band of emotional response -- or eliminate it altogether. They condition a mental framework that is productive to the task of war. But it isn't emotionally complex, sophisticated, or even conscious for many people. It's "macho" -- like welding a steelplate where your compassion is meant to be. It's fine for war but day to day life finds it maladaptive.

I'm very well educated in the field of emotion, psychology, and social work. I'm not going to pretend I don't know what I know. I would encourage you to develop a deeper emotional life, to widen your experience and responses, and to be less fearful of that realm of human experience, in general.

Doofy · Apr 17, 2007, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

I think because they're unhappy with their guilt ridden lives. They feel guilt about driving SUVs, they feel guilty about their religion (then it's working!) or guilty about something else

Don't be going down that route. Seriously.

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by wolfen

No. You are demonstrating the truth of it by misinterpreting me and being acerbic. I wasn't insulting anyone.

Do you think children always react to loss in a mature way? Of course not. Why? Because they haven't developed the ability to respond to emotionally complex situations. Tragedy is a very complex event in the realm of emotion.

Part of military training, for example, is to narrow the band of emotional response -- or eliminate it altogether. They condition a mental framework that is productive to the task of war. But it isn't emotionally complex, sophisticated, or even conscious for many people. It's "macho" -- like welding a steelplate where your compassion is meant to be. It's fine for war but day to day life finds it maladaptive.

I'm very well educated in the field of emotion, psychology, and social work. I'm not going to pretend I don't know what I know. I would encourage you to develop a deeper emotional life, to widen your experience and responses, and to be less fearful of that realm of human experience, in general.

Yet still, you assume that my emotions are poorly developed. That's an unfortunate, and inaccurate assumption on your part.

I'd like to remind you that you do not know me, and all you have to operate on here is the fact that I am not grieving over the deaths of 32 people I didn't know. Why don't I grieve over them? Because I don't know them. Because I'm aware of the fact that thousands of people die every day, a lot of them more painfully and unjustly than those 32 people that were lucky enough to reach the age of 18 or whatever it was they reached.

I have sympathy for their families, I really do - it's a terrible thing to happen.

Now, if you're taking the liberty of asserting yourself as more emotionally developed than myself, then I reserve the right to say that I'm a whole lot more in touch with the real world than you are. I know of the attrocities taking place every moment... and the fact that 32 people don't fit into the picture. That doesn't necessarily diminish how horrible this situation is, but in a way it does serve to illustrate the fact that if you grieved over every single person that died, it's all you'd do.

The fact that you find their deaths so horrifying simply means you're out of touch with the real world (and yes, I'm assuming you're not reacting the same way towards everyone else that dies every day, just like the way you assume you know anything about my life).

So I restate: you are by definition not grieving. You're sad, maybe even upset, certainly sympathetic, maybe empathetic, I don't know. But you're not curled up crying in the fetal position because you don't think you can go on any more.

centerchannel68 · Apr 17, 2007, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Don't be going down that route. Seriously.

Then why are people singling me out for an opinion shared by others? That's all I' saying. I don't need to discuss it, I'm just annoyed that if 10 people say the same thing, and I'm one of those 10, people will quote me and argue with me and attack me, and ignore the other 9 people.

Jawbone54 · Apr 17, 2007, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

Don't be going down that route. Seriously.

Seconded.

Doofy · Apr 17, 2007, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by His Dudeness

Well, there's two people here that think they have the right to dictate how and when and why people can grieve, and whether or not they are even allowed to. And if you do, you are labeled as mentally insane, or some such ****.

Again, that "mentally insane" (as opposed to physically insane) label was applied by professional psychologists. I suspect they know a bit more about it than you do.

Grieving about someone you didn't know existed until you saw the news yesterday is insane (mentally, not physically). There's just no getting around that fact.

Have you spent all day on your knees rocking backwards and forwards hitting yourself over the head and wailing like a banshee (same as Arab women do when their family members die)? No? You're not grieving then - you're simply sorrowful or sympathetic. Period.

Anyways. Gotta go listen to more Manowar, pillage some neighbours, rape some puppies, deflower some virgins and other evil stuff. Back later.

wolfen · Apr 17, 2007, 02:38 PM

I am not making any judgment of you based on your response to this tragedy. I'm basing it on your behavior in this thread. And I never said your emotions were poorly developed. If you look carefully, you have slammed yourself against the rocks of my posts repeatedly -- all on your own. You chose to apply them to yourself. I encouraged you to expand your emotions -- good advice for anyone. The way you used my words is telling.

The fact that you continue to convert this thread on a human tragedy into a petty argument, at every turn, says a lot about your emotional state whether you want to accept that or not. You can say anything you like...I'm not going to contribute any further to your pattern of interaction.

Doofy · Apr 17, 2007, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

Then why are people singling me out for an opinion shared by others? That's all I' saying. I don't need to discuss it, I'm just annoyed that if 10 people say the same thing, and I'm one of those 10, people will quote me and argue with me and attack me, and ignore the other 9 people.

Fair enough.

Dakarʒ · Apr 17, 2007, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Seconded.

Go down the route, just let me get some popcorn first.

Gossamer · Apr 17, 2007, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by centerchannel68

Then why are people singling me out for an opinion shared by others? That's all I' saying. I don't need to discuss it, I'm just annoyed that if 10 people say the same thing, and I'm one of those 10, people will quote me and argue with me and attack me, and ignore the other 9 people.

You were "attacked" because you were the only one that attacked him for something other than his posts. When other people responded to his statement, you just haaaaad to bring up his owning an SUV and affinity towards sports. If you hadn't noticed, he's also arguing with Cipher anyway. You should quit playing the victim.

Cipher13 · Apr 17, 2007, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by wolfen

I am not making any judgment of you based on your response to this tragedy. I'm basing it on your behavior in this thread. And I never said your emotions were poorly developed. If you look carefully, you have slammed yourself against the rocks of my posts repeatedly -- all on your own. You chose to apply them to yourself. I encouraged you to expand your emotions -- good advice for anyone. The way you used my words is telling.

The fact that you continue to convert this thread on a human tragedy into a petty argument, at every turn, says a lot about your emotional state whether you want to accept that or not. You can say anything you like...I'm not going to contribute any further to your pattern of interaction.

Fair enough. Generally when engaging in dialogue in a topic such as this points are directed at the other person. Given all the attacks flying around in here you have to be defensive. If I misinterpreted your intentions so be it - it doesn't change anything at all.

My points still stand, so do yours.