[aristotles]

Tommy Douglas was a great man who inspired the Federal Government to bring in Medicare. I'm worried that our country is slowly becoming Americanized. I also believe that Medicare does not go far enough. Rather, I believe that we could save a lot more money if we were to look to the NHS of Britain as a model going forward rather than slipping towards an American style healthcare system. If we look at the American system, we can see that rather than lowering costs, the privatization of the system has lead to cost overruns, unwieldy bureaucracy and millions of Americans being disenfranchised by their own government and the medical system by being unable to afford even basic medical treatment.

I have to disclose that I have never voted for the Federal Liberal party nor the NDP. Have voted for and continue to vote for the "conservative" party of the day in Canada which is today the Conservative Party.

I believe that all Canadians, regardless of their political affiliation should lobby their their MP's and MLA's about nationalizing the healthcare system in order to provide consistent healthcare for all Canadians regardless of their economic status as they move about they country with no user fees.

I believe that a nationalized program with no user fees could save tax payers millions of dollars in efficiencies from centralized bulk purchasing, reduced bureaucratic costs from not having to deal with fees and higher negotiating power with medical equipment manufacturers.

Does the thought of a Conservative Party supporter talking like this scare you? Does it scare the Americans here?

I have a a radical idea for Americans. Take back your democracy and make your government afraid of the people again instead of having the people being afraid of the government. Why is socialized medicine so scary for Americans while socialized libraries, police, fire departments, public schools is not scary? Think about it for a minute. Why are you guys paying so much tax money to private corporations to do what a centralized health service could do for a lot less money?

You guys have been lied to by not only the Republicans but also the Democrats because both parties are in the pockets of the medical companies. Take back your democracy and remind them that the government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people.

Americans should feel embarrassed that their medical system is far worse than even an impoverished Communist country like Cuba despite spending more on healthcare per capita than any other country in the world.

[lpkmckenna]

Given that our American friends can't even manage an effective election system, I think government-run healthcare is beyond them.

I don't think the British model is very good. Turning every doctor into a state employee is simply exploitive. If anyone deserves to be self-employed, it's a doctor.

Canada's fundamental problems in healthcare are human resources and equipment.

On the human side, we are killing our nurses with overwork. We don't have enough doctors. There is only one solution: make those jobs more attractive. The only way to do that is financial incentives. If we can afford tax-free living for soldiers overseas or Native Canadians at home, we can afford tax-free living for doctors and nurses. If we can afford government subsidy for video game companies and film companies, we can afford to absorb the university debts of doctors and nurses. (These are merely suggestions.) Right now, a smart young person entering university is thinking "why be a stressed-out physician when I can be a financially-secure lawyer?" We need to restore healthcare as an attractive career.

On the equipment side, we need to attract private capital. If that means private MRI clinics, so be it. Right now, many Canadians will slip across the border for that test rather than wait months and months. We need them to spend that money in our healthcare system, not in the American system.

[James L]

Have you looked in depth into the NHS? It has a lot of good things going for it, but a lot of bad also. No health care system is perfect....there are always pros and cons. While it is true that the WHO ranks Canada's health care system higher than the US model, there are also things the US system does better than ours in my opinion.

Complex question.

[besson3c]

aristotles: what does it mean to be a conservative in Canada, in your opinion?

[Chongo]

My favorite Canadian show.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

aristotles: what does it mean to be a conservative in Canada, in your opinion?

Trudeau. Seriously.

If you hated Trudeau, you're a conservative. If you loved him, you're a socialist. If you hated him, but told others you loved him, then you're a Liberal.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Right now, a smart young person entering university is thinking "why be a stressed-out physician when I can be a financially-secure lawyer?" We need to restore healthcare as an attractive career.

Jebus man, don't you work in Toronto? I've met those Bay Street firms, dem people work some crazy stressful hours for that fat cheque....

greg

[peeb]

Folks, can I call a time out here? There has already been a lot of nonsense written in this short thread about the UK health system. Can I make a small request? That people do at least a minimum amount of research before they post an opinion. Thanks!

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Folks, can I call a time out here? There has already been a lot of nonsense written in this short thread about the UK health system. Can I make a small request? That people do at least a minimum amount of research before they post an opinion. Thanks!

Peeb, as for 90% of your posts, I should just start with "WTF are you talking about ?"

There has NOT been a lot said about the NHS, only THREE short paragraphs.

So why don't you point out what's wrong with THEM, rather than giving us your typical BS blanket statements.

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Rather, I believe that we could save a lot more money if we were to look to the NHS of Britain as a model going forward rather than slipping towards an American style healthcare system.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I don't think the British model is very good. Turning every doctor into a state employee is simply exploitive. If anyone deserves to be self-employed, it's a doctor.

Originally Posted by James L 

Have you looked in depth into the NHS? It has a lot of good things going for it, but a lot of bad also.

-t

[besson3c]

turtle777: maybe what he was saying was meant to be preemptive? I mean, it's only a matter of time before somebody comes in here and starts some sort of unfocused rant about liberals and communism/socialism.

[peeb]

Thank you Turtle - I was referring to Ipkmckenna's misunderstanding. The idea that every doctor in the UK is a state employee is just nonsense. Thanks for the random insults though, they add a lot to the debate.

[lpkmckenna]

The UK has both private and public health systems, but Canada has only a public system.

Except for GPs, almost all doctors in the UK are NHS employees. Those which aren't are mostly private-system only.

Hence, if Canada adopted NHS-style healthcare, it could only be via the doctor-as-employee route, since there is no private system here.

[peeb]

That's absolute nonsense. Even supposing you think this it would be a bad thing, as you admit, far from all UK doctors are state employees. If Canada adopted a system that was more similar to the UK there would be no need for that to be the case there.
I presume you know this though, and it's just a piece of rhetorical disinformation.

[aristotles]

I see a lot of nonsense in this thread from fellow Canadians. I'm sure the NHS is not perfect but part of the reason why the Canadian system is a mess is because it is not only divided by province leading to bureaucratic redundancy but there is also a mixture of private and public funding of the "public" system. When you mix the two concepts, you end up with a mess and inherit some of the bad from both private and public systems. The US is a lot worse in that regard but Canada is starting to slip down that path. Here in BC, I have to pay 54 dollars a month for provincial health insurance to subsidize the public system and then I pay a certain amount per month from my salary for private health insurance to cover dental, eye care and prescriptions above an beyond what is covered by BC Medical.

As for doctors being exploited, we heard the same rhetoric when Tommy Douglas was fighting to bring in Medicare. The fact is that doctors in the UK have a choice of private practice for companies or to work for the NHS. The doctors working for the NHS make a nice living and do not have to suffer under a huge dept load from university like Canadian doctors starting out. They also get paid bonuses for improving the health of their patients through preventative medicine rather than getting paid off by the drug companies to push the latest drugs on their patients.

If a doctor is earning over 80 thousand pounds or more per year completely debt free from university, I'd say that is pretty decent. But I have to say that if money was the primary motivation in becoming a doctor then they should not be a doctor in the first place. Doctors should feel a calling to help and heal their fellow man.

I believe that we could be saving a lot of money by not having a hybrid system like we have now. There is an old saying "A man cannot have two masters". If doctors are receiving money from the public system and from private insurance companies and drug companies, you have to ask where their loyalties are.

[aristotles]

What is conservatism in Canada? Well it is certainly not the irresponsible tax and spend policies of the Republicans or Democrats. Fiscal conservatism does not preclude expansion of social services if it would result in cost savings over privatization. I would say that a fiscal conservative should be concerned about providing basic social services such as education, healthcare and law services in the most cost effective manner. If a public system would be more cost effect then I think that should be the way to go. Public services can help drive the economic engine of a country by encouraging happier and healthier workforce.

We need to stop looking the the Americans and start looking at things pragmatically. We do not need to follow the British example verbatim but I think their system makes more sense than the American one.

I am a firm believer in free enterprise but just as I do not believe that the government is the best choice for some things, I also do not believe that privatization is effective or efficient at providing social services and other essential services for a nation.

Would anyone here suggest privatization of the police force? What about the department of defence? The fire department? I would hope not.

As much as we Canadians may argue about things including my suggestion for expanding the reach of Medicare, almost no Canadian be they liberal, conservative or socialist would ever suggest scraping our existing medicare system.

If you need an example of a "Conservative" instituting a new socialized service, look no further than the pragmatic leader WAC Bennett. Bennett created BC ferries as an extension of the public highway system. Even though I voted for the Provincial Liberals (conservatives), I feel that the privatization of the BC Ferry corporation was a huge waste of tax payer money and we have failed to see any savings from privatization but rather it has cost us a lot more. This also serves as an example of when privatization is worse than having a crown corporation.

[besson3c]

How does a fiscal conservative actually know which route will be cheaper? Is there a way to determine this through study beforehand, or is it a matter of guesswork, or a bit of both?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

I see a lot of nonsense in this thread from fellow Canadians. I'm sure the NHS is not perfect but part of the reason why the Canadian system is a mess is because it is not only divided by province leading to bureaucratic redundancy but there is also a mixture of private and public funding of the "public" system. When you mix the two concepts, you end up with a mess and inherit some of the bad from both private and public systems. The US is a lot worse in that regard but Canada is starting to slip down that path. Here in BC, I have to pay 54 dollars a month for provincial health insurance to subsidize the public system and then I pay a certain amount per month from my salary for private health insurance to cover dental, eye care and prescriptions above an beyond what is covered by BC Medical.

Dental and prescription glasses have traditionally not been covered in most provinces. I think the most one should argue reasonably here is that there should be more consistency in the coverage plans from province to province.

As for doctors being exploited, we heard the same rhetoric when Tommy Douglas was fighting to bring in Medicare. The fact is that doctors in the UK have a choice of private practice for companies or to work for the NHS. The doctors working for the NHS make a nice living

Not really. NHS has a reputation for paying poorly (and not just for docs).

and do not have to suffer under a huge dept load from university like Canadian doctors starting out. They also get paid bonuses for improving the health of their patients through preventative medicine rather than getting paid off by the drug companies to push the latest drugs on their patients.

It is illegal in Canada to be directly paid to push a drug on their patient. Maybe a physician can go to a sponsored lecture series on the drug. Once in a while this means a trip to a nice central location, but usually it means a dinner lecture or something locally. However, neither of these involves a check given to the physician. Now, if the physician is part of academic research panel or something on the drug, then he may be paid for his time, but that's unusual.

If a doctor is earning over 80 thousand pounds or more per year completely debt free from university, I'd say that is pretty decent.

I wouldn't, when many Canadian docs make over $300000 per year, with much lower living expenses in Canada compared to the UK.

£80000 = CAD$156613 (or US$156936)

But I have to say that if money was the primary motivation in becoming a doctor then they should not be a doctor in the first place. Doctors should feel a calling to help and heal their fellow man.

Welcome to Eastern Europe in the early 1900s... But we all know how that worked out. Seriously though, many docs here in Canada had said they're perfectly happy to make $150000 per year... if they work 37.5 hours a week, with full benefits, and 6 weeks vacation like other government employees, no night call or weekend call, and all malpractice insurance paid for by the government.

By my calculations, that works out to $77/hour, plus benefits.

I believe that we could be saving a lot of money by not having a hybrid system like we have now. There is an old saying "A man cannot have two masters". If doctors are receiving money from the public system and from private insurance companies and drug companies, you have to ask where their loyalties are.

Their loyalties are to themselves, just like anywhere else in the world.

Anyways, I'm not trying to claim that Canada's system is ideal. Far from it. However, paying physicians crappy wages for their hard work is definitely not the way to ensure a good system, especially when those physicians can easily pick up and go to the US, where the pay would be significantly higher. And to be sure, Canadian docs are in high demand in the US.

[Monique]

What hard work would that be? Making sure patients stay the least amount of time with them. Not answering questions, or answering them with you do as I say or never come back. Leaving a patient to suffer in his room and God knows do not disturb those lazy nurses (my brother almost died because a nurse could not be bothered with checking up on him).

I would love to see a more uniformed healthcare and that everyone in the country would receive the same medecine (if they want it); but it is not the case. We have a lousy track record in finding cancer for example, lung cancer, in Canada it is a 3% survival rate and elsewhere in the Western world it is 10%. But us patients interfer with doctors becoming rich and with being sick what a drag for them to have to take care of patients.

Before I forget what about doctors that make constant professional mistakes and we patients cannot find out about it; I can hear the doctors in this thread saying so what!

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Monique 

What hard work would that be? Making sure patients stay the least amount of time with them. Not answering questions, or answering them with you do as I say or never come back. Leaving a patient to suffer in his room and God knows do not disturb those lazy nurses (my brother almost died because a nurse could not be bothered with checking up on him).

Yup, that would be it. It's really draining to be able to annoy patients effectively. They train for many years to be able to achieve that.

I would love to see a more uniformed healthcare

Bring back the hats!

We have a lousy track record in finding cancer for example, lung cancer, in Canada it is a 3% survival rate and elsewhere in the Western world it is 10%.

Heh. Check out Table 14 on page 57. The Canadian 5-year survival ratio for lung cancer is 15%. (The survival ratio compares the number of deaths from that cancer vs. death in the general population.)

[besson3c]

It's interesting how we tend to assume that other countries are better off as far as their health care goes, with the exception of Americans who think that what America has is uniformly the best in the entire world just because.

Or something like that... Can't put my finger on it.

[Eug]

Yeah, one of the problems of the US system is incomplete coverage. The other main problem is the fact that the US has the highest per capita health care cost in the world... despite the fact that so many people aren't covered. And part of the reason it's so expensive is because of the overhead. There is so much paperwork involved in the US it's shocking (from what I'm told).



The sad part of the above graph (besides the $) is that the infant mortality rate is higher in the US, and the life expectancy is lower in the US.

Canada's system is much cheaper, but it certainly isn't cheap compared to other countries.



The UK is significantly cheaper, but as I mentioned before, one big complaint against NHS is that the workers don't get paid very well so many health care workers would prefer to work elsewhere.

Pay for doctors - NHS Careers

[Eug]

Interesting. It seems that some of the poor-pay-for-NHS-docs is being changed:

BBC NEWS | Health | GP contract 'a bad deal for NHS'

Practice partners now work seven fewer hours a week on average, but earn 58% more, the National Audit Office found.

The spending watchdog said primary care trusts had not used powers to force better access for patients.

But a health minister said the contract had helped stem a "haemorrhage" of GPs from the NHS.

Some may say that the GPs are the only ones that are benefitting, and the UK gov got hosed. That may or may not be true, but I suspect that either way, it does provide more of an incentive for those docs to stay within NHS. (The pay raise was in part specifically aimed at keeping docs from leaving NHS.) It will be interesting to see where that above graph will place the UK next year in terms of per capita health costs.

EDIT:

Top 20 places by life expectancy, according to the UN:

1. Japan
2. Hong Kong
3. Iceland
4. Switzerland
5. Austria
6. Spain
7. Sweden
8. Israel
9. Macau
10. France
11. Canada
12. Italy
13. New Zealand
14. Norway
15. Singapore
16. Austria
17. Netherlands
18. Martinique
19. Greece
20. Belgium

The United Kingdom is #22, and USA is #38.

[Eug]

[el chupacabra]

And part of the reason it's so expensive is because of the overhead. There is so much paperwork involved in the US it's shocking (from what I'm told).

I think for every 5 pieces of paper I go through only 1 is needed. I guess that means for every tree that needs to die, 5 die... People come in get each of their insurance cards photocopied to an individual piece of paper, their license photocopied...all this info is consolidated onto one page, however for legal reasons we can't just throw out the other photocopied pages and whatever other bull **** we don't need. each time the papers get sent somewhere each and every useless page is copied. Each destination is suppose to keep those papers for 4-6 years i believe; so the hospitals, clinics, labs all spend even more money renting out these huge storage facilities across town where they can store paperwork... paperwork that if they ever needed to find it again they wouldn't be able to.

In Hong Kong I can get a box of generic drugs for about 30 bucks at the hospital, and I don't need a prescription.
I think we need to drastically rethink about the roles and structure of the medical system components. And really why should I have to waste time and money going to a general MD to get a simple antibiotic, then wait in line at the pharmacy just to be ripped off again by US drug companies?

One solution:
The subject MD, should be a B.S. degree. This would increase doctors and lower the cost. The real reason docs require 8-12 years of school is because the profession has become a status/class symbol of elitism.

Isn't it funny that a physician's assistant can do essentially everything a doctor can with only 2 years of medical education?
By consolidating medical classes into a 4 year BS a PA would actually have more education than they do now, but with less time and money spent in school. Doctors could then go on to a 2 year master's programs for their specialty.

The age of family practices is over.... Let it die already. Everyone wants to just go to an after hours clinic or the ER... so why not shape the system around that?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

The subject MD, should be a B.S. degree. This would increase doctors and lower the cost. The real reason docs require 8-12 years of school is because the profession has become a status/class symbol of elitism.

Uh no. If you want to be an elite in medicine, you might want to go into neurosurgery.

Isn't it funny that a physician's assistant can do essentially everything a doctor can with only 2 years of medical education?

Under the supervision of a physician. That's why they call him/her a physician's assistant.

Using your logic, a 2nd year medical student is essentially the same thing as a physician, because that medical student can do what a physician does... under the supervision of a physician.

By consolidating medical classes into a 4 year BS a PA would actually have more education than they do now, but with less time and money spent in school. Doctors could then go on to a 2 year master's programs for their specialty.

As far as I'm concerned, that would be insufficient training. One of the reasons that family practice training has increased in length in some areas is due to the amount of training needed (obviously). Family practice alone is 2 years or more. Neurosurgery is something like 6-7 years after medical school, and then many do additional subspecialty training after that.

The age of family practices is over.... Let it die already. Everyone wants to just go to an after hours clinic or the ER... so why not shape the system around that?

Not everyone wants to just go to an after hours clinic or the ER. I sometimes do, but prefer to go to a physician who knows my medical history and whom I trust. Sometimes it's hard to get that, but that's the ideal IMO.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Uh no. If you want to be an elite in medicine, you might want to go into neurosurgery.

Being an MD is enough to be an elite in society. Doctors who make 40k/yr still get the best of everything. These people go to seminars constantly throughout the year to the most exotic places in the world staying at $800/night hotels just to watch 2 hours worth of power point presentations. They spend most the time there vacationing. All this is on some company/hospital expense. Doctors often qualify for whatever loan they want even when failing to pay off student debt after years, and never turning a profit with their practice. There is class interest in keeping doctors in short supply.

Under the supervision of a physician. That's why they call him/her a physician's assistant.

nope, the doc takes responsibility for the PA. But they can diagnose, and administer medication without a doc ever seeing you. It's all about the lawsuits in this case; the industry has proven that PAs have the knowledge to do what the doc does.

Using your logic, a 2nd year medical student is essentially the same thing as a physician, because that medical student can do what a physician does... under the supervision of a physician.

In a way yes, clinics are having people with 2 yr education do duties formerly reserved for doctors with or without supervision. PA is just a 2 year program (im not saying this is all a good thing, i think it should be a 4 yr undergrad program, same w/ MD). You could have a BS in forestry and become a PA with just 2 years more education; same with MD, waste 4 years taking philosophy, or chemistry before they even start medicine. The fields only require a few extra undergrad classes; anatomy, physiology, psych, biochem, and o-chem. So why not skip the undergrad bs in random majors and let docs get a head start by declaring MD to begin with? Let med school be all about the specialty.

As far as I'm concerned, that would be insufficient training. One of the reasons that family practice training has increased in length in some areas is due to the amount of training needed (obviously). Family practice alone is 2 years or more.

personally Id rather go to a specialist to begin with; if my tooth hurts I go to the dentist, my knee hurts go to the orthopedic, rather than a jack of all trades doctor...but to each his own.

The field seems to broad to me; the specialties aren't divided enough. So broad it's encouraging mistakes imo. Kind of like if we consolidated chemical engineer, electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, envrionmental engineer into a general field of just "engineer".

[Eug]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

personally Id rather go to a specialist to begin with; if my tooth hurts I go to the dentist, my knee hurts go to the orthopedic, rather than a jack of all trades doctor...but to each his own.

The field seems to broad to me; the specialties aren't divided enough. So broad it's encouraging mistakes imo. Kind of like if we consolidated chemical engineer, electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, envrionmental engineer into a general field of just "engineer".

Subspecialization can be very good, but oversubspecialization can sometimes be bad too, depending on the situation. As they say, "If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

P.S. I guess you don't realize a "dentist" is usually a generalist. When I had my root canal, my dentist referred me to an endodontist. "Dentists" are the family doctors of dentistry.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by aristotles 

Tommy Douglas was a great man who inspired the Federal Government to bring in Medicare. I'm worried that our country is slowly becoming Americanized. I also believe that Medicare does not go far enough. Rather, I believe that we could save a lot more money if we were to look to the NHS of Britain as a model going forward rather than slipping towards an American style healthcare system. If we look at the American system, we can see that rather than lowering costs, the privatization of the system has lead to cost overruns, unwieldy bureaucracy and millions of Americans being disenfranchised by their own government and the medical system by being unable to afford even basic medical treatment.

I have to disclose that I have never voted for the Federal Liberal party nor the NDP. Have voted for and continue to vote for the "conservative" party of the day in Canada which is today the Conservative Party.

I believe that all Canadians, regardless of their political affiliation should lobby their their MP's and MLA's about nationalizing the healthcare system in order to provide consistent healthcare for all Canadians regardless of their economic status as they move about they country with no user fees.

I believe that a nationalized program with no user fees could save tax payers millions of dollars in efficiencies from centralized bulk purchasing, reduced bureaucratic costs from not having to deal with fees and higher negotiating power with medical equipment manufacturers.

Does the thought of a Conservative Party supporter talking like this scare you? Does it scare the Americans here?

I have a a radical idea for Americans. Take back your democracy and make your government afraid of the people again instead of having the people being afraid of the government. Why is socialized medicine so scary for Americans while socialized libraries, police, fire departments, public schools is not scary? Think about it for a minute. Why are you guys paying so much tax money to private corporations to do what a centralized health service could do for a lot less money?

You guys have been lied to by not only the Republicans but also the Democrats because both parties are in the pockets of the medical companies. Take back your democracy and remind them that the government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people.

Americans should feel embarrassed that their medical system is far worse than even an impoverished Communist country like Cuba despite spending more on healthcare per capita than any other country in the world.

But if we nationalize healthcare, how will our doctors and pharmaceutical companies maintain their enormous wealth disparity with the rest of society? Really, you ought to think about these things before you post them.

[Chongo]

gotta love the Bizzaro

[Kerrigan]

I've always thought that the Canadian pronunciation of "about" did not sound like "a boot" but rather "a boat" which is how it sounds in many parts of Scotland and Ireland.

[Buckaroo]

Canadians have values?

Which ones?


j/k

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

Canadians have values?

Which ones?


j/k

OIL

I didn't LOL. Why? Cuz it was a dumb freaking post.