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US Primary Season 2016: Come for the numbers, stay for the punditry (Page 6)
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Notice the ad hominem tactic again. Communist speak for: That person doesn't support my communist politician/policy, so they are racist/homophobes/sexist/etc....
Isn't calling me a communist an ad hominem?
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 01:31 PM
 
I wish I understood this discussion.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I wish I understood this discussion.
I have a feeling if you did you'd say the opposite.
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 01:36 PM
 
I'll buy that.
     
P
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Mar 9, 2016, 02:04 PM
 
Dakar just won the thread, I think.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
BadKosh
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Mar 9, 2016, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Notice the ad hominem tactic again. Communist speak for: That person doesn't support my communist politician/policy, so they are racist/homophobes/sexist/etc....
Notice how you didn't comprehend the first part of the sentence about the PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH the open borders. (Crime, etc.) Who should be held accountable? You know, personal responsibility.
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 02:40 PM
 
Why does anyone believe Trump would want to cut off his supply of cheap labor?
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 9, 2016, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Notice how you didn't comprehend the first part of the sentence about the PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH the open borders. (Crime, etc.) Who should be held accountable? You know, personal responsibility.
Was that question directed to me? I'm all for sovereign border protection (for every nation), and controlled/managed/legal immigration if the citizenry wishes.

I'm not sure how one would/should go about advocating an open borders policy as some seem to be over here. But personally, im totally against open borders and *uncontrolled*(illegal as it is now) immigration.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 9, 2016, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Isn't calling me a communist an ad hominem?
Why is it an ad hominem? The term describes one side of politics(and their policies) and its supporters.

As such, I wouldn't consider it an ad hominem if you called me a libertarian/capitalist.

However calling someone a racist/sexist/homophobe/etc...without any poof of such would qualify as ad hominem.

Facts dont really care about your feeling.
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Was that question directed to me? I'm all for sovereign border protection (for every nation), and controlled/managed/legal immigration if the citizenry wishes.

I'm not sure how one would/should go about advocating an open borders policy as some seem to be over here. But personally, im totally against open borders and *uncontrolled*(illegal as it is now) immigration.
A wall will keep out cheap labor, not MS13, or whatever we're trying to keep out.

The thought process which leads to building a wall is the same thought process behind DRM.

How'd that work out?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Why is it an ad hominem? The term describes one side of politics(and their policies) and its supporters.

As such, I wouldn't consider it an ad hominem if you called me a libertarian/capitalist.

However calling someone a racist/sexist/homophobe/etc...without any poof of such would qualify as ad hominem.

Facts dont really care about your feeling.
A. You haven't shown I'm 'communist' yet call me one
B. You're using it as a negative connotation much as one would use the term 'jerk' or 'thief'.
C. Numerous polls have demonstrated that ideological leanings of sections of Trumps supporters. For a quick refresher, a former grand wizard of the KKK is a big fan.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Dakar just won the thread, I think.
What'd I do?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:12 PM
 
Fiorina endorsed Cruz. Okay.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
A. You haven't shown I'm 'communist' yet call me one
B. You're using it as a negative connotation much as one would use the term 'jerk' or 'thief'.
C. Numerous polls have demonstrated that ideological leanings of sections of Trumps supporters. For a quick refresher, a former grand wizard of the KKK is a big fan.
B. No i wasn't. "communist" describes the political leanings of of one side of politics. Why is that "negative" like sexist/racist/homophobe/etc?
C. Just because the grand wizard is a big fan, doesnt make all the people who support him in Louisiana xenophobes and sexist.

Were you joking or being sarcastic?
     
Chongo
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:37 PM
 
When Rubio drops out he will pledge his delegates to Cruz and that will propel him into the lead.
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:43 PM
 
What position of Dakar's is communist?
     
andi*pandi
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Mar 9, 2016, 03:49 PM
 
Anybody who is perceived to be pro-Bernie is a big ol' commie. Exhume McCarthy and carry on.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 9, 2016, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Anybody who is perceived to be pro-Bernie is a big ol' commie.
You'll have to excuse me, but my sarcasto-meter has been on the fritz lately.

Bernie makes no qualms about being a socialist/communist. So is it not logical to call his supporters(people who support the policies he advocates) socialists/communists?
     
Laminar
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Mar 9, 2016, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
You'll have to excuse me, but my sarcasto-meter has been on the fritz lately.

Bernie makes no qualms about being a socialist/communist. So is it not logical to call his supporters(people who support the policies he advocates) socialists/communists?
Wait...where has Bernie called himself/been okay with being called a communist?
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Wait...where has Bernie called himself/been okay with being called a communist?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie...ical_positions

...And since he wants to be the President (ie the head/leader) of a government implementing "socialism"... what would that the resulting system?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Wait...where has Bernie called himself/been okay with being called a communist?
Just admit your red leanings, comrade. Why I bet you even bleed red.
     
andi*pandi
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:33 PM
 
Yes, Bernie says he's a socialist, but he means democratic socialist.

"SOCIALIST / COMMUNIST" labels have instinctive negative connotations, based on vague historical knowledge, sylvester stallone movies, and heck, Rocky and Bullwinkle. People aren't not sure what it means, but it must be bad, since we fought the commies for so long. When some folks hear "socialism" or "communism" their minds jump to stalin and other evil dictators, totalitarianism, bread lines, anticapitalism, etc. There is ignorance of how much of our current government already uses social policies. Social Democracy is FDR. Public works. National Parks. Roads. Public Schools. Social Security. No totalitarianism. Yes democracy. Yes capitalism. Yes fair labor laws.

Many have legit gripes with these social programs (administration, red tape, cost) but if we can discuss the issues without conjuring up 1950s enemies, that would be better.

I have more fears of the authoritarian regime Trump describes than of having more of my tax dollars go to college funds.
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie...ical_positions

...And since he wants to be the President (ie the head/leader) of a government implementing "socialism"... what would that the resulting system?
A democratic republic.

This is opposed to the dictatorship of the proletariat he'd be calling for if he was a communist.

I don't agree with the guy's politics, but jeez...
     
Laminar
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
but if we can discuss the issues without conjuring up 1950s enemies, that would be better.
Yeah we all know that won't happen around here.
     
Laminar
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Just admit your red leanings, comrade. Why I bet you even bleed red.
Red...WHITE AND BLUE. You know, French colors.
     
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What'd I do?
The reply to subego just above that post summed up my feelings exactly.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Red...WHITE AND BLUE. You know, French colors.
Russian, too.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 06:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
The reply to subego just above that post summed up my feelings exactly.
Ah, the witty rejoinder. I suspected it wasn't my sterling analysis.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 9, 2016, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
...based on vague historical knowledge...


Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
... minds jump to stalin and other evil dictators, totalitarianism, bread lines, anticapitalism, etc.
Obviously because the simpletons fail to see all the successes, improved quality of life and other positive aspects those systems bring about in the many experiments of the 20th century. /s

(In order to redistribute you have to first steal it away (and then the giving away part goes astray)).

Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Social Democracy is FDR.
...steering the nation(and it's people) towards ruin...

I am all for government services which can be utilized equally by citizens. What i think is inherently bad is government redistribution. And a citizen supporting/empowering another citizen to take from someone else to give to another isn't noble, nor just.

If one wants to advocate redistribution/charity, do so without the use of government coercion or force towards your fellow citizens by setting up charities, etc on your own. That would be admirable. IMHO

You fear Trump? I fear Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, PolPot, Castro, Mao & Kim.

FTR: I'm not advocating Trump. I think Cruz is the best candidate for the Presidency.
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Mar 9, 2016 at 06:51 PM. )
     
Hawkeye_a
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Mar 9, 2016, 06:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
A democratic republic.

This is opposed to the dictatorship of the proletariat he'd be calling for if he was a communist.

I don't agree with the guy's politics, but jeez...
Republic (at least this one): individual rights, equal for all citizens
Socialism/Communism: Redistribute via threat of force. take from the 'rich' and give to the 'poor'. (Discrimination from government)
Democracy: 51% vote for a government to violate the rights of the other 49%. (thus ceasing to be a republic based of liberal, individualistic values).

Everything *should* not be up for a vote (tyranny of the majority). Basic values, "inalienable rights", etc... IMHO
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Mar 9, 2016 at 06:59 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Mar 9, 2016, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Republic (at least this one): individual rights, equal for all citizens
Socialism/Communism: Redistribute via threat of force. take from the 'rich' and give to the 'poor'. (Discrimination from government)
Democracy: 51% vote for a government to violate the rights of the other 49%. (thus ceasing to be a republic based of liberal, individualistic values).
What do you do when 1% control the government such that the votes of the 99% are meaningless? Isn't that worse?
     
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Mar 9, 2016, 07:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Republic (at least this one): individual rights, equal for all citizens
Socialism/Communism: Redistribute via threat of force. take from the 'rich' and give to the 'poor'. (Discrimination from government)
Democracy: 51% vote for a government to violate the rights of the other 49%. (thus ceasing to be a republic based of liberal, individualistic values).

Everything *should* not be up for a vote (tyranny of the majority). Basic values, "inalienable rights", etc... IMHO
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Republic (at least this one): individual rights, equal for all citizens
Socialism/Communism: Redistribute via threat of force. take from the 'rich' and give to the 'poor'. (Discrimination from government)
Democracy: 51% vote for a government to violate the rights of the other 49%. (thus ceasing to be a republic based of liberal, individualistic values).

Everything *should* not be up for a vote (tyranny of the majority). Basic values, "inalienable rights", etc... IMHO
We've redistributed wealth via threat of force under every president in my lifetime, it's a question of degree.

Our "inalienable rights" are set forth in the Constitution. These aren't subject to a majority rules vote.
     
Chongo
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Mar 9, 2016, 07:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
We've redistributed wealth via threat of force under every president in my lifetime, it's a question of degree.

Our "inalienable rights" are set forth in the Constitution. These aren't subject to a majority rules vote.
We'll see after Obama nominates Scalia's replacement.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2016, 07:40 PM
 
     
subego
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Mar 9, 2016, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
We'll see after Obama nominates Scalia's replacement.
Let's say Obama puts Jeremiah Wright on the court... or Bill Ayers... or, or, or... Michelle.

Which inalienable right do you think will come under threat?

Edit: I'll give you guns... what other right?
     
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Mar 9, 2016, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Let's say Obama puts Jeremiah Wright on the court... or Bill Ayers... or, or, or... Michelle.

Which inalienable right do you think will come under threat?

Edit: I'll give you guns... what other right?
Or, Harriet Meyers!
What about the contraceptive mandate cases that are heading to the court? There are continually challenges to the ministerial exemption.
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 06:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
That's not actually a quote from Franklin. Doesn't sound like him or the 1700s.
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 06:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
That's not actually a quote from Franklin. Doesn't sound like him or the 1700s.
No, it is not. As usual when a quote is attributed to Franklin, it wasn't actually by him (the word "lunch" didn't even exist until long after his death, and the second sentence is pretty far from his views). From what I can google up, some variant of it can be traced back to -94 - that is 1994, not 1794 - and even then the second sentence wasn't in.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 07:22 AM
 
Maybe it was Roosevelt Franklin.
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
-Michael Scott
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What do you do when 1% control the government such that the votes of the 99% are meaningless? Isn't that worse?
Tyranny of one, a minority, or a majority is not ideal, IMHO.

To me, It's about the rights of individuals. The rights set out in your constitution and bill of rights affords every citizen those inalienable rights, irrespective of what one, a minority, or a majority vote to change. The whole point of those documents is to prevent government, either through a minority/majority, from taking those rights away or limiting them for anyone, etc. They are a limit, specifically on the power of government over citizens.

Regarding your 1% vs 99% hypothesis. We saw what an 'unlimited' democracy did to Germany in the 30s/40s, where the majority, voted away the wealth and rights(and life) of a minority, on the pretext that they were strangling the economy by hording wealth, and other such nonsense. That's why the party was called the national *socialist* party.
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 11:23 AM
 
So, whats up with both Hillary and "BS" telling their audience at the debate that they won't follow the immigration laws, much like the way President LIAR is doing? Don't Democrats follow laws anymore?
     
Laminar
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Mar 10, 2016, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Regarding your 1% vs 99% hypothesis. We saw what an 'unlimited' democracy did to Germany in the 30s/40s, where the majority, voted away the wealth and rights(and life) of a minority, on the pretext that they were strangling the economy by hording wealth, and other such nonsense.
What happens when a minority takes away the rights, wealth, and upward mobility of a majority?
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Regarding your 1% vs 99% hypothesis. We saw what an 'unlimited' democracy did to Germany in the 30s/40s, where the majority, voted away the wealth and rights(and life) of a minority, on the pretext that they were strangling the economy by hording wealth, and other such nonsense. That's why the party was called the national *socialist* party.
No, that's not what happened. NSDAP got 43% of the votes in the last parliamentary elections. They managed to get their legislative agenda passed through a long series of legal trickery - compromises with the conservative parties, arresting opposing parliamentarians on the day of crucial votes and banning their opposition parties, the communists and eventually the SDP (social democrats), to get the necessary votes for constitutional amendments. The conservative parties eventually disbanded themselves. Actual persecution of minorities didn't actually begin until after this takeover was complete.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Laminar
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Mar 10, 2016, 12:14 PM
 
You guys: I think you're forgetting that Bernie is literally Hitler.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 10, 2016, 12:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You guys: I think you're forgetting that Bernie is literally Hitler.
I have the math to prove it: Hitler = Socialist; Bernie = Socialist; Therefore Bernie = Hitler
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 10, 2016, 12:42 PM
 
On a related note, subego and cooler heads in the media have got me to tone down the Trump is a fascist hyperbole. He uses some methods that are similiar to fascists and has authoritarian predilections but he is not a fascist.
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What happens when a minority takes away the rights, wealth, and upward mobility of a majority?
This sums up my opinion:
     
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Mar 10, 2016, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
On a related note, subego and cooler heads in the media have got me to tone down the Trump is a fascist hyperbole. He uses some methods that are similiar to fascists and has authoritarian predilections but he is not a fascist.
The irony here, and I know I shouldn't admit this...

I don't really know what a fascist is.

I mean, I'm familiar with the famous people who are considered fascists, but I don't see the common thread past their dictatorial aspects.
     
 
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