[Y3a]

<<ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS TARGET WOUNDED AT ARMY HOSPITAL
Wed Aug 2005 24 21:20:05 ET

Anti-war protestors besieged wounded and disabled soldiers at Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, D.C, a new web report will claim!

CNSNews.com is planning to run an expose featuring interviews with both protestors and veterans, as well as shots of protest signs with slogans like “Maimed for a Lie.”

The conservative outlet will post video evidence of the wounded veterans being taunted by protesters, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

Developing late...>>

The cowards are now tormenting those who served with honor - another proof that the liberals have a mental disorder.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Y3a

<<ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS TARGET WOUNDED AT ARMY HOSPITAL
Wed Aug 2005 24 21:20:05 ET

Anti-war protestors besieged wounded and disabled soldiers at Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, D.C, a new web report will claim!

CNSNews.com is planning to run an expose featuring interviews with both protestors and veterans, as well as shots of protest signs with slogans like “Maimed for a Lie.”

The conservative outlet will post video evidence of the wounded veterans being taunted by protesters, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

Developing late...>>

The cowards are now tormenting those who served with honor - another proof that the liberals have a mental disorder.

Which is a good case for conservative bias.

[loki74]

...disgusting.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Which is a good case for conservative bias.

Conservative bias nothing. If this story is true it's disgusting. Whether they believe in this war or not if it wasn't for guys like that they wouldn't be there able to point their stupid signs.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Which is a good case for conservative bias.

Sure, but has Drudge ever pretended to be anything but biased?

Bias isn't a problem when the biased ones are open and honest about it. It's the ones who present themselves as 'objective' or 'balanced' that are dangerous. It's why I no longer consider Moore and Limbaugh to be two sides of the same coin; Limbaugh, at least, doesn't pretend to be anything other than what he is. A better set of coins would be Moore and O'Reilly, who pretend to be objective, versus Limbaugh and Franken, who do not.

Ahem. As for the story itself, it's entirely possible to protest the war without being an asshat about it. They are in fact two different things. However, the distinction seems to be lost on these protesters. Before you use someone's image in a protest, at least have the decency to make sure that they want to be used that way first. My biggest problem with Sheehan is that she's using her son's image in a way which he demonstrably would not have wanted. Although that lack of desire is less certain in this case, the fact that they don't even respect the wounded enough to ask them first is indicative of the same sort of disrespect.

[Y3a]

Drudge is probably less biased than you think.

The lib's say he's a right winger, the righty's say he's leftist. Makes it clear he's neither.

The lib's still hold a grudge because he broke the Blue Dress story that became Monicagate.

[Y3a]

Would Cindy Sheehan feel the same way if her son was only wounded and was at the hospital where the protestors were?

[budster101]

Unfortunately. Yes. Most likely she would...

[Gee-Man]

Originally Posted by Millennium

My biggest problem with Sheehan is that she's using her son's image in a way which he demonstrably would not have wanted. Although that lack of desire is less certain in this case, the fact that they don't even respect the wounded enough to ask them first is indicative of the same sort of disrespect.

You have no idea what Cindy Sheehan's son would have wanted. None of us do. Casey Sheehan's participation in the war is not demonstrable proof that he fully supported it, or GW Bush. Not everyone who fought in the war is an ardent war supporter, there are many who don't believe this war is being waged honestly but are still over there following orders (my cousin is one of those people).

Your logic is flipped in this case - Cindy Sheehan has far more justification to use the memory of her son to support her cause (because, well, it's her son!) than random protesters do with wounded vets who are not related to them. That is, assuming this story is accurate, which I'm suspicious of, but I will reserve judgement until further information arrives.

[RIRedinPA]

What I can't understand is all the folks with hard ons for the war who have yet to volunteer to go over there. Clearly, if you feel, like the President, that the war in Iraq is pivotal to our security and freedom you should stop posting on an obscure forum on the web and instead strap on the Kevlar and webbing and get in the **** with the boys and girls in service today?

[pman68]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

What I can't understand is all the folks with hard ons for the war who have yet to volunteer to go over there. Clearly, if you feel, like the President, that the war in Iraq is pivotal to our security and freedom you should stop posting on an obscure forum on the web and instead strap on the Kevlar and webbing and get in the **** with the boys and girls in service today?

Or better yet, they should send their kids if they have any. Excuse me, "volunteer" their kids.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

What I can't understand is all the folks with hard ons for the war who have yet to volunteer to go over there. Clearly, if you feel, like the President, that the war in Iraq is pivotal to our security and freedom you should stop posting on an obscure forum on the web and instead strap on the Kevlar and webbing and get in the **** with the boys and girls in service today?

Nah, they are all too old, got bad knees or back, can't see well enough and the list goes on.........

[budster101]

When are you going to go and fight for the Taliban?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

When are you going to go and fight for the Taliban?

Trying to quit smoking? Not got laid for a while? Or just hate all Muslims?

All of the above perhaps?

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

What I can't understand is all the folks with hard ons for the war who have yet to volunteer to go over there. Clearly, if you feel, like the President, that the war in Iraq is pivotal to our security and freedom you should stop posting on an obscure forum on the web and instead strap on the Kevlar and webbing and get in the **** with the boys and girls in service today?

That is such a specious argument. Are the only people who can support military action be in the military or formerly a member? This seems to be the new battle cry for the left. Since they don’t want war, they have nothing to worry about their argument. But people on the right have to “put up or shut up.” How many people on the left are member of organizations that actually work to end war? How many people on the left do anything except complain and not give constructive advice.

The truth of the matter is that the Constitution is set up with a civilian in charge of the military. Civilians in Congress control the purse strings of the military. How many members are or have been in the military? This argument of the left is completely lacking in logic. Should we put a military person in charge of everything with absolutely no civilian oversight? Absolutely not.

I would think that people who are in the military and actively at war don’t have the time to sit and make posts on a website on a daily basis, just like we do from the comfort of our homes.

Oh, and for the record: In college, I was considering Officer Candidate School (OCS). However, my Senior year I was diagnosed with Hodgkin’s Lymphoma. I went back after my recovery to the Army office and was told because of my various surgeries and chemo, I can’t join the military. I am now 36 and would have joined had I the ability. Hell, I can’t even donate blood because of my past medical condition. (But I have been in for remission for 13 years this October!)

[budster101]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Trying to quit smoking? Not got laid for a while? Or just hate all Muslims?

All of the above perhaps?

No, really, when are you going to go and join Al Qeada?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

(But I have been in for remission for 13 years this October!)

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by budster101

When are you going to go and fight for the Taliban?

Classic response - opposing the war in Iraq instantly equates to supporting radical Islamist. Nice, you get that from the Cheney Talking Points hand out?

Give me a break, what an oversimplification, even for you. I actually applauded George Bush and his response to 9/11. I thought there was a show of resonable restraint in not nuking Afghanistan, I thought the initial combat phase will become a classic study of how to integrate special ops with light infantry and air power and our initial pledge of support to Karzai et al was admirable.

And we were obviously taking care of business with a known enemy of the US which had inflicted terrible casaulties on our civillian population.

Iraq is the orange in this equation. The case for going was based on embellishments, fabrications and cafeteria style selection of intel, the DoD ignored top brass which called for an initial invasion and occupation force of 200,000+, other than the invasion the military aspect of this has been a debacle, not because the grunts haven't performed admirably when called upon but because once again DoD chose to ignore the advice of experts in not to dismantle the Iraqi military, to have prepared civil affairs and MP units available to fill the power vacuum, to not rush things. Even today, well into it, the whole thing is run on a US political agenda, not what is right for getting the country straight.

But thanks for proving that Goering quote to be true.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

No, really, when are you going to go and join Al Qeada?

Why should I?


But seriously. Seek help. Be it for the cigarettes :lights up a cigarette and takes a big puff: , the lack of sex, or the hatred inside of you. Or all of the above at once.

[budster101]

I'm just responding to the idiocy that is "When are you going to volunteer and go and fight in Iraq" BS...

Can dish it out, but you can't seem to take it eh?

You should join the Taliban / Al Qeada, because you talk like one, but are probably too much of a pussy to join up. What's the matter? Too old? Bad knees? You need to wear a uniform to feel big, and they don't offer them?

Edit: Seriously, go fcuk yourself.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

That is such a specious argument. Are the only people who can support military action be in the military or formerly a member? This seems to be the new battle cry for the left. Since they don’t want war, they have nothing to worry about their argument. But people on the right have to “put up or shut up.”

You have to put up or shut up when your (not you specifically) are telling me I can't protest the war. When the right berates people like Mrs. Sheehan who lost a God damn son in Iraq for opposing the war and protesting it in a peaceful manner - how much more of a sacrifice does someone have to make in order to be able to question the government or protests its actions?

How many people on the left are member of organizations that actually work to end war? How many people on the left do anything except complain and not give constructive advice.

Probably the same number as on the right who would actually join and serve instead of just cheerleading.

The truth of the matter is that the Constitution is set up with a civilian in charge of the military. Civilians in Congress control the purse strings of the military. How many members are or have been in the military? This argument of the left is completely lacking in logic. Should we put a military person in charge of everything with absolutely no civilian oversight? Absolutely not.

No argument here, but how is that relevant?

I would think that people who are in the military and actively at war don’t have the time to sit and make posts on a website on a daily basis, just like we do from the comfort of our homes.

Not true. I post on the Runner's World web site and there's a member there (Clark) who was an Arty Captain who would post on a nightly basis from there.

Oh, and for the record: In college, I was considering Officer Candidate School (OCS). However, my Senior year I was diagnosed with Hodgkin’s Lymphoma. I went back after my recovery to the Army office and was told because of my various surgeries and chemo, I can’t join the military. I am now 36 and would have joined had I the ability. Hell, I can’t even donate blood because of my past medical condition. (But I have been in for remission for 13 years this October!)

I'm glad your in remission, keep on fighting and your desire to serve is noble. For the record - six years in uniform, 3 with B Co., 82nd Sig, 82nd Abn, 3 with A Co., 50th Sig, 35th Sig. Bde (ABN), XVIII Airborne Corps. 40 percent hearing loss in left ear from M60 firing range accident, two nasty, very telling scars where legs and trunk meet from parachute mishap. Two tours in Hondorus (1 volunteered for) with 82nd and 7th SF and 1 tour peacekeeping duty in Sinai.

Don't make assumptions that I am a liberal because I oppose the war in Iraq. (But I have been known to unabashedly hug a tree or two).

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by budster101

I'm just responding to the idiocy that is "When are you going to volunteer and go and fight in Iraq" BS...

Can dish it out, but you can't seem to take it eh?

You should join the Taliban / Al Qeada, because you talk like one, but are probably too much of a pussy to join up. What's the matter? Too old? Bad knees? You need to wear a uniform to feel big, and they don't offer them?

Edit: Seriously, go fcuk yourself.

So, when are you going to volunteer and go fight in Iraq?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by budster101

I'm just responding to the idiocy that is "When are you going to volunteer and go and fight in Iraq" BS...

Can dish it out, but you can't seem to take it eh?

You should join the Taliban / Al Qeada, because you talk like one, but are probably too much of a pussy to join up. What's the matter? Too old? Bad knees? You need to wear a uniform to feel big, and they don't offer them?

Edit: Seriously, go fcuk yourself.

Do you realise that you are almost claiming that for you to join the US Armed Forces would be like for me to join the Taliban? Do you realise the connection you are making?

And you know very well why I won't join them. And it has nothing to do with bad knees or being too old.



ps. and it's saddening to see the pro-war camp here who have never set foot into an active warzone and never seen with their own eyes the effect it has. But perhaps that's just the difference? You've never seen it but I have.

[pman68]

Originally Posted by budster101

When are you going to go and fight for the Taliban?

And this has to do with the war in IRAQ how???

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

I'm glad your in remission, keep on fighting and your desire to serve is noble. For the record - six years in uniform, 3 with B Co., 82nd Sig, 82nd Abn, 3 with A Co., 50th Sig, 35th Sig. Bde (ABN), XVIII Airborne Corps. 40 percent hearing loss in left ear from M60 firing range accident, two nasty, very telling scars where legs and trunk meet from parachute mishap. Two tours in Hondorus (1 volunteered for) with 82nd and 7th SF and 1 tour peacekeeping duty in Sinai.

Don't make assumptions that I am a liberal because I oppose the war in Iraq. (But I have been known to unabashedly hug a tree or two).

What exactly does any of this prove? Veterans are on both sides of this issue. Now, I served just over 6 years on active duty or active reserve duty. 5 were on active duty in the infantry and in the command group of a combat division. I was in the 5th Infantry and 1st Armored Divisions. I support the war. At what point am I allowed to get on with my life without being demagogued for supporting a war that just didn't happen to coincide with the years of my service?

We have a volunteer armed forces. Nobody is obligated to serve, and having served doesn't make you that special. It certainly doesn't make you the only one entitled to an opinion. Next you will be saying that the only people allowed to have an opinion about crime are people who join the police. I kind of think medicine is important too, yet I am not a doctor. I think that it is important to fight fires, but I never joined the fire brigade, and I want coal that comes from dangerous mines, and steel from dangerous mills, but I have never worked in a mine or a mill. And so on.

P.S. You just reminded me that I got my wings exactly 16 years ago today. I was a 31C back then. A year later I changed my MOS to infantry and I ended up as an 11M. That, unfortunately, was the end of my airborne career.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

What exactly does any of this prove? Veterans are on both sides of this issue. Now, I served just over 6 years on active duty or active reserve duty. 5 were on active duty in the infantry and in the command group of a combat division. I was in the 5th Infantry and 1st Armored Divisions. I support the war. At what point am I allowed to get on with my life without being demagogued for supporting a war that just didn't happen to coincide with the years of my service?

You may carry on as you always have. Having served six active at what point can I protest the war without being called a traitor?

We have a volunteer armed forces. Nobody is obligated to serve, and having served doesn't make you that special. It certainly doesn't make you the only one entitled to an opinion. Next you will be saying that the only people allowed to have an opinion about crime are people who join the police. I kind of think medicine is important too, yet I am not a doctor. I think that it is important to fight fires, but I never joined the fire brigade, and I want coal that comes from dangerous mines, and steel from dangerous mills, but I have never worked in a mine or a mill. And so on.

I was just responding to his 'for the record' comment with my own record. But on what you said your also not saying that we should have fires or that we should have crime. That's the difference IMO, some folks are all for having this war but don't seem to be willing to fight it themselves.

P.S. You just reminded me that I got my wings exactly 16 years ago today. I was a 31C back then. A year later I changed my MOS to infantry and I ended up as an 11M. That, unfortunately, was the end of my airborne career.

A cable dog! I was a 31M, thanks for hooking us up all the time! I would have loved to switch MOS to 11B - sitting in a overheated or underheated van for 24-hour shifts watching lights blink sucked but we were a shortage MOS back then. When I got to Bragg from Gordon the Sgt. at the reception center read off a bunch of MOS's (mostly commo) and said 'Welcome to Bragg, you troops aren't going anywhere.'

When you were a 31C with wings what unit were you in?

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Thanks!!

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

<Snip>

I will try to respond later today or after work. Not trying to duck your responses.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

A cable dog! I was a 31M, thanks for hooking us up all the time! I would have loved to switch MOS to 11B - sitting in a overheated or underheated van for 24-hour shifts watching lights blink sucked but we were a shortage MOS back then. When I got to Bragg from Gordon the Sgt. at the reception center read off a bunch of MOS's (mostly commo) and said 'Welcome to Bragg, you troops aren't going anywhere.'

When you were a 31C with wings what unit were you in?

31C is not a cable dog. I was a RATT rigger. Single channel radio. It's the stuff that was phased out when MSE came along. I was originally a reservist in Sig Co, 11th SFG(A). Do you perhaps remember a story that happened in 1989 about a cherry jumper who drowned in cow dung? That was my cherry jump. The guy that drowned was in my company.

I transferred to active duty during Desert Shield, which is why they sent me back to Benning to requalify as a grunt. I wanted to be an 11B so I could go to Bragg (well, at that time, Saudi Arabia). But they needed 11 Mikes. 11M is mechanized infantry. We ride in Bradleys.

You are wrong about requiring everyone who supports a war to volunteer. That's just being unpleasantly personal. If you object to being called names like "traitor" you shouldn't stoop to (in effect) calling them cowards.

[Y3a]

The reason we didn't send in 200K troops is because our incorrect intel said they might USE the WMD's and we didn't want to have too many eggs in one basket..so to speak.

Why doesn't the left look at the chronology of events? 1979 Iran. That was the start of events. They knew that with a wimp president they could call the shots and embarrass the US. Same thing was going to happen during Clintons term. He didn't do anything except Monica... They tested that "Alfred E. Neuman" looking president next, and were wrong. Now they are on the defense, and as far as Iraq, we probably would NOT have invaded had our Intel been better, but who's to blame for it being lousy? Janet Renos Assistant AG, who also sat on the 9/11 commission to help hide the fact that SHE created the wall between agencies and prosocuters which would have helped connect the dots. Who were they trying to protect at the federal level??? Chinese? Middle-Easterns?

Start with the info the President had at the time. You would have come to the same conclusions. The president should have canned that fool at the CIA right after 9/11, and then told them to forget any walls, and get working together. Politics at Intel agencies will get you fired. Next SEAL THE BORDERS! Because this has not been done, I have lost respect for "W".

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

31C is not a cable dog. I was a RATT rigger. Single channel radio. It's the stuff that was phased out when MSE came along. I was originally a reservist in Sig Co, 11th SFG(A). Do you perhaps remember a story that happened in 1989 about a cherry jumper who drowned in cow dung? That was my cherry jump. The guy that drowned was in my company.

I transferred to active duty during Desert Shield, which is why they sent me back to Benning to requalify as a grunt. I wanted to be an 11B so I could go to Bragg (well, at that time, Saudi Arabia). But they needed 11 Mikes. 11M is mechanized infantry. We ride in Bradleys.

You are wrong about requiring everyone who supports a war to volunteer. That's just being unpleasantly personal. If you object to being called names like "traitor" you shouldn't stoop to (in effect) calling them cowards.

My bad, 36C is a cable dog. So you got your five drops in and then got shipped off to a leg company? That sucks, I know a lot of guys that happened to. Never heard the story about the cow dung drowning but did you ever hear of the Mojave Desert drop were wind conditions were so bad the jumpmasters called off the jump twice? On the third no go the CO overrides them and they drop us - something like 100 troopers were injured and the CO himself broke his vertabrae slamming into a gamma goat or something like that. A MP friend of mine who was put on security said he was so f'cked up he was sh*tting and pissing all overhimself. It was pretty bad. He had to retire, they f*cking propped him up in a wheel chair at the change of command ceremony. Anyway.

I did not call anyone a coward. I simply pointed out the irony that many of those supporting the war are themselves not in the service. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the point but I think it is hypocritical to be for the war, call someone who opposes it a traitor and not be willing to go over there yourself. Obviously there are many who support the war and are willing to allow me my point of view without getting into questioning my patriotism and I have no problem with that. It's those who feel I am not allowed to express my point of view that I have issues with. I'm not calling anyone a coward but if they are reading that into my comments then perhaps something is hitting close to the core and those are issues they'll need to reconcile on their own.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

My bad, 36C is a cable dog. So you got your five drops in and then got shipped off to a leg company? That sucks,

That's pretty much it. I got 8 jumps before I was taken off status. Or rather, before I was branded with a primary MOS that ensured I'd never be assigned to an airborne unit again. I'm still annoyed about it. I just didn't believe until it was too late that they would waste the training. Stupid!

Whether you choose to characterize it as "irony" or not, you are effectively calling people cowards. Why do you think it is called the "chickenhawk" argument? It's an unpleasant, highly personal argument that is no better than simply calling people names. It's also an argument that is fundamentally at odds with how we structure our democracy, and our military.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Gee-Man

Casey Sheehan's participation in the war is not demonstrable proof that he fully supported it, or GW Bush.

He enlisted in the military after the Iraq war started, knowing that his unit would be sent there. Cindy herself admits this. No one forced him to do this, and Sheehan's own words seem to imply pretty heavily that she and others tried to stop him from going. Although it is not totally clear whether or not Casey fully supported the war, I'd call this a pretty clear indication that he thought it was worth fighting.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

It's also an argument that is fundamentally at odds with how we structure our democracy, and our military.

Perhaps that is also what causes the disconnection between the American people and wars. IMO it's a major character flaw to support a war but not to be willing to fight it. It could also explain why many who have never been in war (or a war zone) regularly come up with the "sh*t happens" argument. Of course "sh*t happens" when the population of a country are so completely disconnected from the realities of wars.

[spauldingg]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

Classic response - opposing the war in Iraq instantly equates to supporting radical Islamist. Nice, you get that from the Cheney Talking Points hand out?

Give me a break, what an oversimplification, even for you. I actually applauded George Bush and his response to 9/11. I thought there was a show of resonable restraint in not nuking Afghanistan, I thought the initial combat phase will become a classic study of how to integrate special ops with light infantry and air power and our initial pledge of support to Karzai et al was admirable.

And we were obviously taking care of business with a known enemy of the US which had inflicted terrible casaulties on our civillian population.

Iraq is the orange in this equation. The case for going was based on embellishments, fabrications and cafeteria style selection of intel, the DoD ignored top brass which called for an initial invasion and occupation force of 200,000+, other than the invasion the military aspect of this has been a debacle, not because the grunts haven't performed admirably when called upon but because once again DoD chose to ignore the advice of experts in not to dismantle the Iraqi military, to have prepared civil affairs and MP units available to fill the power vacuum, to not rush things. Even today, well into it, the whole thing is run on a US political agenda, not what is right for getting the country straight.

But thanks for proving that Goering quote to be true.

Awsome. If you don't have a blog, you should.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Millennium

He enlisted in the military after the Iraq war started, knowing that his unit would be sent there. Cindy herself admits this. No one forced him to do this, and Sheehan's own words seem to imply pretty heavily that she and others tried to stop him from going. Although it is not totally clear whether or not Casey fully supported the war, I'd call this a pretty clear indication that he thought it was worth fighting.

But couldn't that be why she is now so upset? All the "lies", half-truths and "We know were they are, they are north, south, east and west of Baghdad" that the US population was fed could have been the reason she is so upset. Perhaps she is upset that her son was conned into joining a war that was unjust and based on, to give the US government the benefit of the doubt, a huge intelligence mistake? Perhaps she's upset that her son sacrificed his life for something that served no purpose for the security of the American people?

[SimeyTheLimey]

On the "chickenhawk" slur, I think another thing that should be borne in mind is that in fact a very large number of people who apparently support the war in Iraq (and more broadly, the War on Terror) have joined the military. It has now been two years since Congress authorized the war in Iraq, and it is getting on for two years since the ground war began. If you turn on the TV and see coverage of Iraq, just about all of those soldiers in the lowest ranks (privates, privates E-2, privates first class, and a good percentage of the specialists) would have enlisted since then. That's because it only takes a couple of years or less to go from E-1 to E-4 and because of the way the armed forces is structured (it's bottom heavy rank-wise).

That means a very high percentage of the soldiers in the Army and in Iraq enlisted knowing they were likely to go there. Remember, the average tour in the military is only four years including training. The Iraq war has been authorized for half that time, and was debated to the point where all were agreed it was highly likely if not inevitable for longer than that. A high percentage of the soldiers in the Army today enlisted since then.

In addition, a high percentage of the soldiers in the ranks E-4 and above will have reenlisted since the Iraq war began. Specialist Casey Sheehan was one of those. As has been (badly under)reported, reenlistment rates are very strong. So what does that say? Those who know the most about what is happening in Iraq, and those who have the most personally at stake, are reenlisting to stay in. Surely, that is significant. It cuts strongly against the idea that support for the war, and willingness to fight are mutually exclusive.

[Gee-Man]

Originally Posted by Millennium

He enlisted in the military after the Iraq war started, knowing that his unit would be sent there. Cindy herself admits this. No one forced him to do this, and Sheehan's own words seem to imply pretty heavily that she and others tried to stop him from going. Although it is not totally clear whether or not Casey fully supported the war, I'd call this a pretty clear indication that he thought it was worth fighting.

I disagree, it's still not demonstrable proof of how he felt. I will use my cousin as an example - he enlisted in the Army just before the talk of war (after Afghanistan), fully expecting that he would be sent over there (either Afghanistan or the coming Iraq war). He was extremely supportive of the coming Iraq war, and dismissed any skepticism his family had over claims of WMD and our citizens in imminent danger. His father (my uncle) was extremely worried about him going to Iraq, and he himself is a veteran.

Since then, my cousin has become very critical of the leadership and handling of the war (although he still calls himself a Republican, which is where we differ). His opinion was changed by the war and being involved in it, plain and simple. However, he is a solider and still follows orders as he is supposed to. But he no longer believes the war was worth fighting for, and he is not alone.

We don't know if Casey Sheehan supported or opposed the war. Ultimately, I feel it's disrespectful to judge Cindy Sheehan on that basis, she is his mother. It would be equally disrespectful to judge the mothers who don't feel the same way as Cindy Sheehan as "dishonoring their sons" - yet only a war opponent is criticized that way.

[davesimondotcom]

What happened to "We support the troops, not the war?"

I'm afraid that the anti-war folks need to step back a bit, breathe and realize what they are doing. They are repeating the mistakes of the anti-Vietnam folks, who spit on veterans returning from the war.

Is it a bit different, considering the difference between volunteer and draftee? Maybe. But the military folks and their are sacrificing doing something that most of us don't have the guts to do. Respect them.

Protest Bush all you want. But please lay off the Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines. They are doing their job. And protesting the wounded, that's just sick.

[davesimondotcom]

Anyone who would imply that you can't support the war in Iraq without volunteering yourself or sending your children to fight is just as ignorant as those who say those protesting should join the "insurgency."

I mean, I like to watch football. I love it even. But just because I support the Denver Broncos doesn't mean I'm going to go play defensive tackle for them. Bad analogy, as I would gladly play DT for the Broncos. Although I'd get my ass kicked.

The point is, we have a volunteer military. Every single one of those people signing up knows what they are signing up for. It's not like they could get through life seeing movies and tv shows and not know that the military is there to kill people and break things.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Protest Bush all you want. But please lay off the Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines. They are doing their job. And protesting the wounded, that's just sick.

well said.

[spauldingg]

2 days later: any proof of this?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Sure, but has Drudge ever pretended to be anything but biased?

Bias isn't a problem when the biased ones are open and honest about it. It's the ones who present themselves as 'objective' or 'balanced' that are dangerous. It's why I no longer consider Moore and Limbaugh to be two sides of the same coin; Limbaugh, at least, doesn't pretend to be anything other than what he is. A better set of coins would be Moore and O'Reilly, who pretend to be objective, versus Limbaugh and Franken, who do not.

Good point. I agree.

Ahem. As for the story itself, it's entirely possible to protest the war without being an asshat about it. They are in fact two different things. However, the distinction seems to be lost on these protesters. Before you use someone's image in a protest, at least have the decency to make sure that they want to be used that way first. My biggest problem with Sheehan is that she's using her son's image in a way which he demonstrably would not have wanted. Although that lack of desire is less certain in this case, the fact that they don't even respect the wounded enough to ask them first is indicative of the same sort of disrespect.

I'd agree with others that it is not clear what the son would have wanted. On the other hand, how can you keep a mother to prevent the grief in others that she is getting through?

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by pman68

Or better yet, they should send their kids if they have any. Excuse me, "volunteer" their kids.

Number one: They're not kids you f*cking twit.

Number two: "We" or "they" don't "send" or "volunteer" anyone. I get tired of people acting like soldiers are taken from the womb by the government to fight. These are adults who made their own decision to join for their own reasons.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Number one: They're not kids you f*cking twit.

Number two: "We" or "they" don't "send" or "volunteer" anyone. I get tired of people acting like soldiers are taken from the womb by the government to fight. These are adults who made their own decision to join for their own reasons.

Finally.

[spauldingg]

Day three. No linky?

[budster101]

spauldingg... are your arms broken? If you are so interested, do search on your own. Are you retarded? If so, I apologize... but you have been waiting 3 days for a link? ...

[spauldingg]

I been waiting three days for the truth.

And I'm hovering the cursor over the "report abuse" link, Buddy. My posts may be short and brusk, but at least I don't call people names. You are frippin my nerves to no eno.

[budster101]

You were waiting for a link. How funny... go find it for yourself, instead of being a little obnoxious baby. "are we there yet?" "are we there yet?" "are we there yet?"....

[spauldingg]

Originally Posted by budster101

You were waiting for a link. How funny... go find it for yourself, instead of being a little obnoxious baby. "are we there yet?" "are we there yet?" "are we there yet?"....

OK, found it.