[TheSpaz]

Apple should expand the Trash menu to also show you what is in the Trash as well as the option to remove it from the dock.

Check out this Mockup I made:

[rickey939]

I like the idea of seeing the contents of the Trash via the contextual menu...nice! However, why the need to remove it from the dock?

[seanc]

I'd like to remove it from the dock and permanently stick it too a place on my desktop where-ever i choose.
When i drag multiple items down to the dock, it magnifies and moves around etc which makes things difficult, it's also a long way from top of the screen to the bottom.
The trash can is one of the only features I liked from the classic OSes.

[TETENAL]

How would you access the trash when it's not in the Dock?

The trash is the most important Finder folder. Therefore it needs to be in the Dock. You use it all the time.

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by seanc

I'd like to remove it from the dock and permanently stick it too a place on my desktop where-ever i choose.
When i drag multiple items down to the dock, it magnifies and moves around etc which makes things difficult, it's also a long way from top of the screen to the bottom.
The trash can is one of the only features I liked from the classic OSes.

But, why not use the plethora of other options to get the files into the trash instead of the manual drag/drop?

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

The trash is the most important Finder folder. Therefore it needs to be in the Dock. You use it all the time.

Also, remember that the Trash is a contextual folder...meaning, it can change depending on what is dragged to it. It can change to a Burn icon, and Eject media, all of which are crucial elements of the Finder and usability as far as I am concerned.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by rickey939

crucial elements of the Finder

AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY THE TRASH IN THE DOCK IS FLAWED!

The Dock is a user interface element at the system level for multiple applications not at the application level. If every application abused the Dock for its own "crucial" elements like the Finder does than it would use half of our screen space.

[mdc]

Originally Posted by seanc

When i drag multiple items down to the dock, it magnifies and moves around etc which makes things difficult, it's also a long way from top of the screen to the bottom.

apple + delete works really well

[Big Mac]

To show all of the items in the trash would produce a very slow drawing menu, especially for people like me who seldom empty while using spacious hard drives. And to those who believe the trash should come out of the Dock - it's been there forever and must remain, unless one wishes to break that chain of consistency for no apparent reason and for very little gain. Tetenal, can you honestly support removing the trash and its current functionality just to serve a minor doctrine you yourself conceived of? If the trash violated some cardinal UI rule or proved to be a significant obstruction to the user, I'd advocate removing it. But quite to the contrary, it is a helpful element rather than a hinderance.

[gradient]

Knowing me, I'd click on 'remove from dock' by accident, but how about adding an option somewhere in the preferences to place the trash either in the dock or on the desktop, heck - having it in the menu bar would actually be great for me.

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY THE TRASH IN THE DOCK IS FLAWED!

The Dock is a user interface element at the system level for multiple applications not at the application level. If every application abused the Dock for its own "crucial" elements like the Finder does than it would use half of our screen space.

So, remind me again how that makes the Trash flawed more so than the Finder/Dock itself? I'm confused.

[monkeybrain]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY THE TRASH IN THE DOCK IS FLAWED!

The Dock is a user interface element at the system level for multiple applications not at the application level. If every application abused the Dock for its own "crucial" elements like the Finder does than it would use half of our screen space.

The Finder doesn't really abuse it, and how would removing it from the Dock remove this 'abuse'? The trash can has always ejected disks, since at least OS 7 if I remember. Yeah it's an inconsistent behabiour, but at least in X it changes to an eject icon. I would guess that most users now adays don't eject via the trash anyway, since there is an eject key on the keyboard and buttons in the Finder sidebar, iTunes etc.

The Dock seems the logical place for a Trash can - it is always accessible. True it does move around a bit, but if you have it on the desktop you loose accessibility. And since you can drag things from many apps into the Dock I would say accessibility is the most important thing.

There are apps that place a Trash on the desktop if you want it.

[RadarBob2]

The trash can has always ejected disks, since at least OS 7 if I remember.

The trash has always ejected a disk. It's been a design flaw criticized from day one. But it's been around so long that it's now nostalgic; getting rid of that would be on par with getting rid of the smiley mac on startup.

Bring back the startup smiley mac. Not THAT I'd upgrade for.

[TheSpaz]

Okay... I see how having a lot of items in your Trash menu would make it long but, maybe they could add something like "show all" if the menu had more than 10 items in it... it could show you the 10 and then have a "show all" button kinda like Spotlight does with results... there's ways to make it work.... as for having it in your Dock or out of your Dock... I feel that it should be up to the user to decide what they would like to do with it... which workflow works the best.

Also, what if people don't need the trash in the Dock taking up Dock space (some of us have 12" PowerBooks) but, they'd rather use that extra space for other Apps and such. (When do you use the trash when you're not in the Finder anyway?

That just gave me an idea... you could actually put the Trash in the sidebar, or in the Finder tool bar... then the trash would actually be in the Finder to be used with the Finder only. As far as I'm concerned, the Trash is not an Application all by itself... it needs the Finder to operate correctly so why not just integrate it into the Finder instead of the System-Wide dock as other's have pointed out. I had no problem with the OS 9 Trash on the desktop... I could still right click it and choose empty or I could hit cmd-shift-delete (which oddly enough ONLY works if you have the Finder active).

So in conclusion, the Finder deals with adding stuff to the trash and removing stuff from the Trash... so why does it need to be in the Global Dock?

[TheSpaz]

[Stradlater]

The main problem with your mock-ups is that you cannot open files in the trash. Grayed-out items, however, would be hard to read.

[osxrules]

I like the idea of the menu but I sometimes have hundreds of items in there so perhaps the menu would take ages to load. I would just like the trash to show me the information like OS 9 used to - number of items in the trash and space used.

I don't think moving the trash from the dock is a good idea. You get 3rd party tools to put it on the desktop anyway. The trash is just a folder so you can have the trash in your Finder sidebar if you want. It's good to have it on the dock because the dock is always accessible. The desktop sort of is too thanks to expose but the dock is still better.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally Posted by RadarBob2

The trash has always ejected a disk. It's been a design flaw criticized from day one.

Day 2, I think

The Mac interface always assumed "noun --> verb" for every file related transaction.

In case of deleting, it would have been "select file to be deleted --> choose 'eject' from the menu". In case of opening files, it would have been "select file to be opened --> choose 'open' from the menu".

This is still today the pure and simple method, but it isn't especially smooth and fast. Thus, shortcuts like 'doubleclick file to open' and 'drag disk to trash to eject' came into existence very quickly, starting the path to ruin

J

[moonmonkey]

don't like this idea at all, its in the trash because I don't care about it.
Don't mess up my menus with things I don't care about.

"Secure Empty Trash" in the contextual menu would be more useful.

[demibob]

Originally Posted by RadarBob2

The trash has always ejected a disk. It's been a design flaw criticized from day one. But it's been around so long that it's now nostalgic; getting rid of that would be on par with getting rid of the smiley mac on startup.

Bring back the startup smiley mac. Not THAT I'd upgrade for.

why is that a design flaw. I think its an excelent idea. id like to be able to empty just one item from the trash at a time though.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

So in conclusion, the Finder deals with adding stuff to the trash and removing stuff from the Trash... so why does it need to be in the Global Dock?

This is exactly what I said.

And then everybody replied to me talking about ejecting which I didn't even mention at all.

[scattered]

Originally Posted by osxrules

I like the idea of the menu but I sometimes have hundreds of items in there so perhaps the menu would take ages to load. I would just like the trash to show me the information like OS 9 used to - number of items in the trash and space used.

Maybe if the menu showed a grayed-out list of the last 15 or so items put in the trash. Like the recent applications menu. I tend to leave stuff in the trash for a while, and tend to forget what's in there, so this could be a useful feature.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

So in conclusion, the Finder deals with adding stuff to the trash and removing stuff from the Trash... so why does it need to be in the Global Dock?

Other applications use the trash, too.

It's a target for drag-and-drop based delete for any app that wants to use it.

J

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Judge_Fire

Other applications use the trash, too.

Mail has its own trash. iPhoto has its own trash. iMovie has its own trash. I have never seen another application use the trash in the Dock. The trash in the Dock can only hold file system objects nothing else.

[TheSpaz]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Mail has its own trash. iPhoto has its own trash. iMovie has its own trash. I have never seen another application use the trash in the Dock. The trash in the Dock can only hold file system objects nothing else.

Exactly. The Finder uses the Trash... nothing else... You can't even add stuff to the trash if you're not in the Finder, it's not like you can drag a file from an Open/Save dialog to the Dock Trash and have the File delete.

[JKT]

OmniWeb can use the trash to cancel drag and drop actions (of images and URLs) and I'm pretty sure there are other apps that do the same or something similar (just tested FireFox and Safari - URLs and images dragged from a window are copied to the trash). Some apps (e.g. TextWrangler) allow you to drag and drop the titlebar document icon to the trash to delete the file. OmniOutliner allows you to drag and drop attached images etc to the Trash to delete them. In other words it isn't just the Finder that makes use of the Trash.

FWIW, I find it interesting that people are against this idea on the basis that the menu would be too slow to display... I don't see why an OS flaw should be held against this idea, which has some value. If Apple would solve the greater UI flaw of slow menus then it wouldn't be an issue that would arise. Personally I don't like the fact that I have to always open a Finder window to see what's in the Trash and would welcome something like this.

[production_coordinator]

IMHO, you destroy the "Trash" metaphor if you add too many features.

You shouldn't have things in the trash unless they are... umm... trash...

[Judge_Fire]

Word even has a difference between a regular 'clear' and dragging a piece of text to the trash, IIRC. It had to do with clearing/keeping a paragraph's styles.

J

[wtmcgee]

i usually don't empty my trash more than once a week or so... i would hate to have that list pop up every time i tried to empy the trash.

[TheSpaz]

I wish the Trash window would at LEAST keep the window settings that you set. Every time I restart or login... the window goes back to Metal... UGH! I don't need a metal trash window.

[Chuckit]

Why are you looking in the trash that much? I hit apple-delete and then choose "Empty Trash." I have no idea what my trash window settings are.

[TheSpaz]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Why are you looking in the trash that much? I hit apple-delete and then choose "Empty Trash." I have no idea what my trash window settings are.

Not everyone uses their computer the same as you. That's like saying "Do you walk to school or carry your books?".

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Why are you looking in the trash that much? I hit apple-delete and then choose "Empty Trash." I have no idea what my trash window settings are.

Exactly, this function is like your toilet storing your turds, completly useless.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

Not everyone uses their computer the same as you. That's like saying "Do you walk to school or carry your books?".

It's more like saying, "Why are you trying to carry your books with your mouth?" You're asking for more file-browsing features in a function that is meant to destroy files, not organize them. I'm saying it sounds like you're doing something wrong if you need that. It's a suggestion. Your request seems to indicate that you're using the Trash for things it's not meant for. If so, you'd be better off using other mechanisms.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You're asking for more file-browsing features in a function that is meant to destroy files, not organize them.

The Trash exists to store files before destroying them, that's the whole point. Otherwise we'd just have instant delete.

It's not that great when you have a zillion files in there, though, so there's room for improvement and organisation.

J

[ShotgunEd]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Why are you looking in the trash that much? I hit apple-delete and then choose "Empty Trash." I have no idea what my trash window settings are.

I hit apple delete then apple-shift delete.

No need for menus or trash windows or anything.

But the trash is useful in the dock, leave it there or I shall smite thee.

And as for the OP, yeah sure, whatever, I never see that menu so do what you like with it.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Judge_Fire

The Trash exists to store files before destroying them, that's the whole point. Otherwise we'd just have instant delete.

So either we have instant delete or the Trash is a perfectly good place to store things you don't actually mean to get rid of? I think there may be a middle ground there. Such as, it is not a good place to store files, but it is a useful precaution against accidental deletions.

Originally Posted by Judge_Fire

It's not that great when you have a zillion files in there, though, so there's room for improvement and organisation.

If there are a zillion files in there, a pop-up menu listing them is worse than what we have now.

Anyway, if you want to use the Trash as your documents folder, be my guest. It doesn't do me any harm. I'm just saying, don't be surprised if it turns out to be worse for the job than things that are actually intended for that purpose. Thus far, the ratio of "feature requests" posted on MacNN to actual features implemented is probably something like 2:500.

[osxrules]

If you drag the trash folder into the dock beside the trash icon, you should be able to get a pop-up menu with the files inside by right clicking or holding left-click. All you'd have to do is empty the trash using the trash icon. You should be able to remove the dock icon somehow but it looks like it might be complicated. Maybe the executable in dock.app has a resource fork you can hack with resourcerer.

If you did, someone might be able to write a docklet that both lists the files and shows secure delete and normal delete.

[GORDYmac]

The Trash isn't on the desktop because it's not part of the Finder. It's on the dock along with all other items you need to access globally--regardless of your current workspace. I hated having to move windows to trash a file. I like being able to drag the icon from the menubar to the dock and being done with it. When in the Finder, Command-T works just fine for me.

The second mockup looks fine to me, as long at the items couldn't be selected. Aspiring developers should take note.

Maybe selecting an item moved it out of the trash...maybe return it to its original location. I do miss that option.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

So either we have instant delete or the Trash is a perfectly good place to store things you don't actually mean to get rid of? I think there may be a middle ground there. Such as, it is not a good place to store files, but it is a useful precaution against accidental deletions.

I think an interesting middle-ground solution would be automated deletion of files according to a user set cycle. Someone on these forums was setting such a system up with a 6 month threshold, IIRC. The Trash has to store files for some time, not to count as instant deletion.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

If there are a zillion files in there, a pop-up menu listing them is worse than what we have now.

I agree, I wouldn't likely use the proposed menu.

However, I think that in the end the Trash is a very special folder and that the Finder should make it a bit easier to manage. As is, I can't even see a preview of the images/movies in the column view. (As, technically, opening files from the Trash is forbidden.)

So some room for improvement exists, IMHO.

J

[sushiism]

+no point showing a list when you can't even use files in the trash
+would take longer for the menu to appear
+maybe people wouldn't want a list of sensitive files to show when they're emptying them

[Catfish_Man]

What if we had a new application metaphor: drag-item-to-trash == delete/trash, in every app with the concept of deletion. No idea if this would be awful or not, just tossing it out for discussion.

[Chuckit]

I could just be remembering funny, so y'all can correct me if I'm nuts, but I believe the "Trash=Delete" model used to exist back in the OS 9 days (not universally, but at least as a somewhat common convention).

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON WHY THE TRASH IN THE DOCK IS FLAWED!

The Dock is a user interface element at the system level for multiple applications not at the application level. If every application abused the Dock for its own "crucial" elements like the Finder does than it would use half of our screen space.

IS THAT REALLY SO!?

Because on MY version of 10.4.3, I can drag a whole bunch of stuff from all sorts of applications to the trash to delete it.

MAYBE YOUR PERCEPTION OF THE TRASH'S FUNCTIONALITY IS FLAWED!

Oh, and stop shouting.

Especially when you're wrong.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Catfish_Man

What if we had a new application metaphor: drag-item-to-trash == delete/trash, in every app with the concept of deletion. No idea if this would be awful or not, just tossing it out for discussion.

Have you tried this?

It actually works for a lot of stuff.

[TheSpaz]

A lot of files I keep in the Trash are obviously files I don't need. But, listen to this... sometimes I throw some files away on a whim and a few days later I realize that I changed my mind about tossing those files but, what if I forgot that the files were even in the Trash and I accidentally empty the Trash. I get no warning of how many files... or even what files are in the Trash. It could be 1 4KB folder or a hundred 50MB videos... but, you wouldn't know.

I would love to see the Trash have better features... and why would you drag something from the menu bar to the Trash? Just dragging it off the menu bar deletes it. You shouldn't need the Trash icon EVER unless you're using it in the Finder. When do you actually need the Trash in any other App... there's gotta be a way to delete files another way from that App... who says you gotta drag them to the Dock?

Did you know you can actually drag images from Safari to the Trash can and see the image file in the Trash? How useful is that feature... you can't throw away things from a web page... so the Trash is ONLY useful in the Finder. That's my point.

And about the menu... I had a suggestion to make a "too many items to list" type of item in the menu if the menu had too many files listed.

[TheSpaz]

I have an idea... when you hover your Cursor over the Trash icon in the Dock... it should say something like "Trash: 2.5MB, 10 Items" instead of just "Trash". And when it's empty it could say "Trash: 0 Items" or "Trash: Empty"

[bewebste]

The trash is a valid destination for use by other applications. From Apple Human Interface Guidelines: Destination Feedback:

Using the Trash as a Destination

Dragging items to the Trash results in moving the item from the source to the Trash. For example, dragging a text selection from a word-processing application and dropping it on the Trash icon (or in the Trash window) results in the text being deleted from the application and a clipping containing that text being created inside the Trash. Note that the item is moved, although it is dragged between two containers. This exception to the rules described earlier is appropriate because the user can undo the operation by dragging the clipping out of the Trash back to its original source; it is consistent with the principle of preventing accidental data loss.

It is important to preserve the Trash’s container property; do not simply delete the source without creating a clipping or other item in the Trash.

Now, these guidelines aren't followed as well as they were under OS 9. For instance, the standard Cocoa text view doesn't support dragging text to the trash (I've filed a bug report on this). TextWrangler supports dragging text, but doesn't correctly create a text clipping in the trash (but you can still undo the operation). Mail supports it, but it's really the equivalent of dragging a message to its own trash. iTunes does support it correctly, moving the dragged music file to the trash (after confirmation).

I never liked the trash being on the desktop in OS 9 because it was easily obscured by other windows, even if I was just doing stuff in the Finder. I like having the trash in the dock, that way I never have to worry about it being covered up.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I have an idea... when you hover your Cursor over the Trash icon in the Dock... it should say something like "Trash: 2.5MB, 10 Items" instead of just "Trash". And when it's empty it could say "Trash: 0 Items" or "Trash: Empty"

Yeah, I definitely like that idea. That's how it used to be done since, like, System 7. I figured it was just left out of OS X when it was new, and they were going to flesh out the functionality later, but…apparently not.

[monkeybrain]

Originally Posted by TheSpaz

I have an idea... when you hover your Cursor over the Trash icon in the Dock... it should say something like "Trash: 2.5MB, 10 Items" instead of just "Trash". And when it's empty it could say "Trash: 0 Items" or "Trash: Empty"

I agree, this would be a grest little addition. Surely it wouldn't be hard for Apple to implement and it would add some nice polish.