[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

What point are you trying to make?

If your (off-topic) point is that Ken Lay's death was caused by religion, you are wrong. If you are trying to say that every topic links to religion, the question would be how many degrees of separation are you willing to go to make the connection.

For the record, any efforts of mine to link religion to another matter or topic in the past can be seen as directly linking that topic to a cause or an effect.

A commonly perpetuated Zionist myth.

Religion has absolutely no link to violence. Abe.

Do you think Bush didn't know about 9/11?

[/non sequitor flamebait]

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chris v

The lesson here, apart from his death, is simple -- rob a 7-11 of 20 dollars, and you're toast. Rob hundreds of thousands of people of BILLIONS (don't forget the California power consumers, and Enron's manufactured power crisis there) and you can skate without ever seeing the inside of a cell, or maybe having to do 6 months of easy time, while your millions collect interest.

Even if he hadn't died, he would have remained out on appeal indefinitely, and possibly have been pardoned by his close personal friend, the President, whose end of term was aligning nicely with Lay's appeal. I'd say we were robbed of justice by his untimely death, but I doubt it would have been served were he alive, either.

There were also at least one life lost in the power outage due to heat being out in the heart of winter, if I recall correctly, and also a committed suicide of an Enron employee who was in on this.

The real miscreant is Jerry Skilling though, Lay was just the guy in charge who let this happen, it was Skilling that was the mastermind behind these efforts.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

Do you dislike colored people, Gossamer?

Why does it matter that you are Black? We don't see your skin color when you type stuff to the forum you know.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Why does it matter that you are Black? We don't see your skin color when you type stuff to the forum you know.

I know what I know and that's all there is to say. Some people just don't like uppity blacks.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

I know what I know and that's all there is to say. Some people just don't like uppity blacks.

I think uppity blacks kick ass all over the place!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

A commonly perpetuated Zionist myth.

Religion has absolutely no link to violence. Abe.

Do you think Bush didn't know about 9/11?

[/non sequitor flamebait]

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think uppity blacks kick ass all over the place!

Thanks.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

Do you dislike colored people, Gossamer?

I had no idea that you were 'colored,' and I wouldn't have a way to know since you haven't posted your picture and I've only really cared about these forums for like a month. I suggest you don't read into people's posts in search of racism. I can assure you this revelation doesn't change my opinion of you.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

I had no idea that you were 'colored,' and I wouldn't have a way to know since you haven't posted your picture and I've only really cared about these forums for like a month. I suggest you don't read into people's posts in search of racism. I can assure you this revelation doesn't change my opinion of you.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

What, are you not? I really don't know, or care for that matter. Carry on.

[besson3c]

Abe/Aberdeenwriter/Mojo2/Art Bell,

Do you think less of me as a white Canadian jazz musician computer geek with a weird sense of humor? Some people just don't like my kind.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Abe/Aberdeenwriter/Mojo2/Art Bell,

Do you think less of me as a white Canadian jazz musician computer geek with a weird sense of humor? Some people just don't like my kind.

Some of my best friends are white. Being Canadian isn't really off-putting except that your sense of liberalism is a bit strident for my taste. Jazz musicianship is groovy as long as you don't get lost in the solos. Computer geek, no prob. Weird humor. I laugh when you make me laugh and I don't when you don't.

Just because you may not be biased and I may not be biased don't tell me you think there's no racial bias in the world.

[Kevin]

I see besson didn't sell that high horse.

[ambush]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph...e_b_24519.html

1). Mr. Lay and his company were among the largest campaign contributors to George W. Bush throughout his political career;

2). In 2000, Mr. Lay provided candidate George W. Bush with use of the Enron company jet for the campaign;

3). Mr. Lay was on President Bush's short list for nominees to be his Secretary of Energy;


4). Mr. Lay vetted President Bush's choice to head the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission;
5). Mr. Lay was a key participant in Vice President Dick Cheney's secret "Energy Task Force";

6). Mr. Lay met with Cheney to ask him to block the FERC from capping California's energy prices during the Enron-manufactured energy "crisis";

7). President Bush's first Secretary of the Army, Thomas White, was a former Enron executive who moved to de-regulate how the Army purchased energy;

8). Attorney General Alberto Gonzales got his start as a lawyer for Vinson and Elkins whose main client at the time was Enron;

9). Republican strategist and White House go-to guy, Ed Gillespie, was formerly a lobbyist for Enron;

10). Mr. Lay testified and spent millions of dollars to promote de-regulation of energy markets at the state and federal level by making the bogus claim that such de-regulation would benefit consumers;

11). Mr. Lay and Enron, after successfully pushing energy de-regulation in California with the help of cronies in government, immediately let loose their young traders who gamed the market by illegally restricting the supply of energy, thereby reaping billions of dollars in ill-gotten profits for the company;

12). Mr. Lay gave far more campaign cash to Republicans and was himself a life-long Republican, (the mainstream media imply that since Lay threw a little cash at Democrats his political giving was nonpartisan);

13). The New York Times tells us that in the wake of Mr. Lay's conviction some business schools are now offering "ethics classes," but ignores the fact that Enron's slash-and-burn practices -- "special purpose entities," "limited partnerships," off-shore accounts, and its cooptation of politicians, investment banks, and accounting firms -- has itself become a business model;

14). Businessweek, Forbes, Fortune, and the business pages of the nation's leading newspapers, held up Mr. Lay as a hero of business right up to his company's spectacular collapse;

15). The dark implications of President Bush's tight connections to "Kenny Boy" and to Enron.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

Some of my best friends are white. Being Canadian isn't really off-putting except that your sense of liberalism is a bit strident for my taste. Jazz musicianship is groovy as long as you don't get lost in the solos. Computer geek, no prob. Weird humor. I laugh when you make me laugh and I don't when you don't.

Just because you may not be biased and I may not be biased don't tell me you think there's no racial bias in the world.

I believe very strongly that racism still exists.

I was just expressing my viewpoint (in a rather flippant way) about how I personally feel about "your kind". Many of my heros are black, for starters, but of course this discussion can become more complicated than that when you bring in people like Bill Cosby, whom I agree with for the most part.

[davesimondotcom]

This is a serious question about those who find some sort of conspiracy theory when it comes to Enron and George W. Bush:

If Enron had so much influence, how come the Bush Administration didn't jump in and bail the company out?

I've never quite understood that.

I've also never understood how nobody seems to blame the Clinton Administration, even though Enron, WorldCom, etc. were cooking their books during the Clinton years, not the Bush years.

I don't want to hijack the thread and the deep talk about racism, but I'm curious.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

If Enron had so much influence, how come the Bush Administration didn't jump in and bail the company out?

I think that even after all the things that ambush quoted, this would have been over the top.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

This is a serious question about those who find some sort of conspiracy theory when it comes to Enron and George W. Bush:

If Enron had so much influence, how come the Bush Administration didn't jump in and bail the company out?

I've never quite understood that.

I've also never understood how nobody seems to blame the Clinton Administration, even though Enron, WorldCom, etc. were cooking their books during the Clinton years, not the Bush years.

I don't want to hijack the thread and the deep talk about racism, but I'm curious.

I want to know why our government (all governments involved) let these things happen. I have a hard time to believe that Bush in particular was completley oblivious to what was going on, particularly with regards to attempts to deregulate the market.


As far as the answer to your question, I don't know how the government could have bailed out the company because by the time the house of cards collapsed, there was no investor confidence left in the company. The government could have prolonged its life, but nobody would want to do business with the company after all of this become publicized.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I want to know why our government (all governments involved) let these things happen. I have a hard time to believe that Bush in particular was completley oblivious to what was going on, particularly with regards to attempts to deregulate the market.

I would like to know how they got away with it for so long, too. But saying Bush was oblivious is rather unfair, considering that he wasn't even in office for an entire year when Enron declared bankruptcy.

Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, all of these companies were doing their cooking of the books before he took office. And that's not even including all of the dot com scams that took people's money and ran.

The late 90s were boom years created by falsified books and inflated company values. Enron wasn't the only company to do this stuff, they were just one of the only ones to be caught.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

they were just one of the only ones to be caught.

Which is irritating.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Which is irritating.

Very much so.

These people give free-market capitalism a black eye.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I would like to know how they got away with it for so long, too. But saying Bush was oblivious is rather unfair, considering that he wasn't even in office for an entire year when Enron declared bankruptcy.

He was buddies with Lay since the 90's, both from a professional standpoint in addition to personal... You should watch the Enron documentary. Bush Sr. talks about how Ken Lay has been a friend to the family (granted, Lay was closer to Bush Sr.), and there is also a segment with Lay's wife discussing why Bush Jr. called Lay "Kenny Boy". This was an old friendship.

The late 90s were boom years created by falsified books and inflated company values. Enron wasn't the only company to do this stuff, they were just one of the only ones to be caught.

There is far more to the Enron scandal than simply fixing some numbers. This scandal was of much greater proportion, and goes far deeper than you think. For starters, you might want to learn about what happened in California.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Very much so.

These people give free-market capitalism a black eye.

That's a good point. After watching the Enron documentary, I wondered to myself whether a free and unregulated economy is ever a good idea in light of how far greed and power will take people.

[aberdeenwriter]

Mods, please lock this thread or else move it to the P/L.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Abe/Aberdeenwriter/Mojo2/Art Bell,

Do you think less of me as a white Canadian jazz musician computer geek with a weird sense of humor? Some people just don't like my kind.

Whoa hold on a sec... you play JAZZ? That changes EVERYTHING.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Whoa hold on a sec... you play JAZZ? That changes EVERYTHING.

Check out his pic in the pic thread. He has a goatee too!

[ambush]

Originally Posted by besson3c

That's a good point. After watching the Enron documentary, I wondered to myself whether a free and unregulated economy is ever a good idea in light of how far greed and power will take people.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Check out his pic in the pic thread. He has a goatee too!

Yeah Nicko, when you think about it I really do kick ass.


I do have a lot of wild and creative energy, often more than I know how to deal with productively, in case you haven't noticed

[ambush]

Enron was originally involved in the transmission and distribution of electricity and gas throughout the United States and the development, construction, and operation of power plants, pipelines, and other infrastructure worldwide. However, within its first year after the merger, Enron was partnering in an oil well venture, with a company called Spectrum 7 whose chairman and CEO was George W. Bush, the son of then-Vice President George H. W. Bush. In 1998 Enron moved into the water sector, creating the Azurix Corporation, which it part-floated on the NYSE in June 1999. Azurix failed to break into the water utility market, and one of its major concessions, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, was a large-scale money loser. In April 2001 Enron announced its intention to break up Azurix and sell its assets.

The long-term implications of Enron's collapse are somewhat unclear, but there is considerable political fallout both in the U.S. and in the UK relating to the money Enron gave to political figures (around US$6 million since 1990). Approximately three-fourths of American contributions went to the Republican Party, including heavy contributions to George W. Bush's presidential campaign.

The baseball stadium Enron Field in Houston, Texas, named after the company, was opened on April 7, 2000, at game where Kenneth Lay threw out the first pitch, and which game was attended by George W. Bush, who was then governor of Texas. The field was renamed to Astros Field after the collapse of Enron, to avoid negative publicity. The park's name was later changed to Minute Maid Park. The Houston Astros had to pay Enron $5 million to get out of the deal.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushlay1.html

People are gullible.

Finally -- is this really a matter of politics or a matter of the People getting ****ed in the ass repeatedly and ignoring it?

[SpyManiac007]

I feel bad saying it all like this...but I'm kinda glad. I live just north of Houston and have watched many of my friends families fall apart because of this man. Tragic to see good people wronged of their money.

007

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by ambush

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushlay1.html

People are gullible.

Finally -- is this really a matter of politics or a matter of the People getting ****ed in the ass repeatedly and ignoring it?

Then what you are calling for is for the government to force EVERY company which has any connection to the President or any company which donates money to any political party or political campaign, to open up their accounting records to the government for investigation, whether or not they've done anything wrong!

Silly boy.

And some people will note the obvious existence of SEC disclosure laws which make the financials of a corporation known to the government. But because a company's officers were willing to lie and deceive the government, the market and the sharholders they were able to get away with it as long as they did.

The only way to have prevented it would have been to force ALL companies to be investigated as if we were in a Nazi-like government.

And if the President was really colluding to screw the public Enron wouldn't have gotten caught.

Someone is guilty of Fuzzy thinking, IMHO.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

Then what you are calling for is for the government to force EVERY company which has any connection to the President or any company which donates money to any political party or political campaign, to open up their accounting records to the government for investigation, whether or not they've done anything wrong!

Silly boy.

Isn't that just a reversal of the measures you support to track terrorists (i.e., every person with an outside connection to possible terrorists has their bank records examined)?

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Isn't that just a reversal of the measures you support to track terrorists (i.e., every person with an outside connection to possible terrorists has their bank records examined)?

One is legal the other is invasive and wouldn't/shouldn't be tolerated.

How you would seem to place a higher value on money over the value of people's lives and safety is amazing.

When the President uses an obviously legal program which has all the oversights and safeguards and yada yada yada to save people from being blown up or WMD'd you cry bloody murder!

But when it comes to violating EVERYTHING this country is built on to hamstring commerce and massively increase the size of government to investigate and enforce this 'abortion' and assume that millions of businesses are guilty of fraud without probable cause because one large corporation tragically ruined thousands of people's retirement and cost customers and shareholders millions of $$ is insane.

Liberalism run amuck.

Good thing President Bush is in charge!

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I would like to know how they got away with it for so long, too. But saying Bush was oblivious is rather unfair, considering that he wasn't even in office for an entire year when Enron declared bankruptcy.

Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, all of these companies were doing their cooking of the books before he took office. And that's not even including all of the dot com scams that took people's money and ran.

The late 90s were boom years created by falsified books and inflated company values. Enron wasn't the only company to do this stuff, they were just one of the only ones to be caught.

I don't believe the blame should fall on the president, whoever it is at the time. Isn't it the SEC's job to keep corporations in check?

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

One is legal the other is invasive and wouldn't/shouldn't be tolerated.

They are both equally invasive!

Why shouldn't the other be tolerated? I'd rather a public entity be shaken up that a real person.

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

How you would seem to place a higher value on money over the value of people's lives and safety is amazing.

Money? No. How about the 10 of thousands of people whose lives are disturbed by corporate fraud and their families by extension.

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

But when it comes to violating EVERYTHING this country is built on

And what, praytell, would that be?

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

to hamstring commerce and massively increase the size of government to investigate and enforce this 'abortion' and assume that millions of businesses are guilty of fraud without probable cause because one large corporation tragically ruined thousands of people's retirement and cost customers and shareholders millions of $$ is insane.

Or we could just ban corporate contributions. OH GNOES!1

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Rumor

I don't believe the blame should fall on the president, whoever it is at the time. Isn't it the SEC's job to keep corporations in check?

Yes, and they failed at it miserably.

It's the effect of beauracracy. People get lazy. They get close to the people they are supposed to keep tabs on. Those people know and find the holes in the system.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Yes, and they failed at it miserably.

It's the effect of beauracracy. People get lazy. They get close to the people they are supposed to keep tabs on. Those people know and find the holes in the system.

Is there a better alternative, or should we bend over and get used to it?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Is there a better alternative, or should we bend over and get used to it?

Bettter alternative: Enforce the laws.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Bettter alternative: Enforce the laws.

That's not an alternative when you begin to understand the kinds of things Enron pulled off. Their exploitation was more systemic of a larger problem - both with the rules of the game, and with pure human greed.

For one, we need to decide which companies should be permitted to use mark to market accounting practices and how this is to be regulated, we need to close loopholes that allow for companies to hide money in fake corporations, and we need to think about which sorts of markets should be regulated, and which are best unregulated, and how these markets ought to work.

[Dakar]

I thought you were implying that wasn't gonna happen.

[besson3c]

Did Ken Lay start Lay's potato chips?

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Did Ken Lay start Lay's potato chips?

Yes. He pooped on the kitchen floor and they took it and made chips from it and deep fried them. And then when the people wanted to invest in the company he told them it was potatoe chips but it wasn't and so when they found out it wasn't Lay's Potatoe Chips but Lay's Poop Chips they wanted their money back but it was too late.

[aberdeenwriter]

Did Ken Starr start Starr Jones?

[chris v]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Bettter alternative: Enforce the laws.

Now you're just talking all crazy outta your head.