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iHanhauser · Mar 26, 2003, 11:34 AM

Just to let you know before I begin this discussion, I did order a 17" Powerbook .... 21 MORE DAYS. OOB 4/17/03

--------------------------------

Sony Z1 Series Notebook

At less than 5 lbs. with extended long battery life up to 6 hours.

--- VS ---

Apple Powerbook 17" Inch

Reports of 3 to 3.5 hours.

Commodus · Mar 26, 2003, 11:45 AM

A comparison between the Z1 and a 17" PowerBook isn't entirely valid. Look at the differences in display sizes: a 17" display will use more power than a 14" display.

The Z1 also has a 16 MB Mobility Radeon (it's not even a 7500!) versus the 64 MB GF4 440 Go on the PowerBook, and there's no Bluetooth, 802.11g, or DVD-R drive on it either (certainly not by default, anyways).

Don't get me wrong, though... the Z1 looks like an interesting design. It's just not really in the same product class.

iHanhauser · Mar 26, 2003, 11:50 AM

Well ... Any Centrino seems like it's battery life will outlast the 17" Apple.

badnewsblair · Mar 26, 2003, 12:16 PM

I am not sure about the Z1, but before you go checking battery life, make sure that it is with a single battery. Remember that a lot of PEECEE notebooks use the interchangable bays (usually 3 on a standard notebook), so if there is only one media bay, you can safely assume they are using two batteries. That being said...

The Centrino Mobile Technology is a step forward for both PEECEES and Apples. Apple will acknowledge the advances with the Centrino and _eventually_ respond with their own answer to the Centrino with its own advantages. Like I've said many times before, good job Intel for the Centrino... its a step forward, but it isn't earth shattering.

ichibod · Mar 26, 2003, 01:49 PM

Holy crap, the 1.6 Ghz version is $3999, with none of the 17" features.

iwpro · Mar 26, 2003, 02:00 PM

What do you mean with none of the 17" features? You mean like a 17" screen? Because that is the only feature I don't see...

Intel� Pentium� M 1.60 GHz
1024 MB DDR RAM
60 GB Hard Drive
CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo
Intel� PRO Wireless Network Connection 802.11b
Double-Capacity; up to 13 hrs. - (almost 4 times as long as the powerBook, 2 times as long with single battery)
and it weighs less than the powerBook at 5.4 lbs.

...but it also costs more. Did I mention there is no 17" screen?

geekwagon · Mar 26, 2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by iwpro:
What do you mean with none of the 17" features? You mean like a 17" screen? Because that is the only feature I don't see...

Intel� Pentium� M 1.60 GHz
1024 MB DDR RAM
60 GB Hard Drive
CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo
Intel� PRO Wireless Network Connection 802.11b
Double-Capacity; up to 13 hrs. - (almost 4 times as long as the powerBook, 2 times as long with single battery)
and it weighs less than the powerBook at 5.4 lbs.

...but it also costs more. Did I mention there is no 17" screen?

Also no superdrive or 802.11g. 802.11b is old and slow these days...

EDIT: I just looked closer. There is also no bluetooth, the combo drive is half as fast at reading and writing CDRs than the 17" and no gigabit ethernet. It does have firewire, USB2 and a memory stick slot though.

iwpro · Mar 26, 2003, 02:27 PM

Speaking of 802.11b I don't know why the PC manufacturers aren't putting 802.11a in new machines? You would think they would be using new technology rather than old.

webb3201 · Mar 26, 2003, 02:30 PM

The reason they have not embraced A is that it is not compatible with B and G. The thought is that with the heavy penetration of B, they will simply move to add G in the future (as Apple has), and allow users to continue to make use of existing B products (which are compatible)

kbdog · Mar 26, 2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by badnewsblair:
Like I've said many times before, good job Intel for the Centrino... its a step forward, but it isn't earth shattering.

Exactly. The way the media portrayed the Centrino made it seem as if Intel had just invented wireless computing.

RooneyX · Mar 26, 2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by kbdog:
Exactly. The way the media portrayed the Centrino made it seem as if Intel had just invented wireless computing.

Again, Mac fanatics are the ones to blame for this myth. Intel and the media are only stating the plain fact that this is the first chip that integrates wireless networking on the chip. Not only is it the first CPU to do that, it does so with very low voltages, high performance and means you don't need to buy a wireless LAN card. How great can a single product get within one generation?

RooneyX · Mar 26, 2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by iwpro:
Speaking of 802.11b I don't know why the PC manufacturers aren't putting 802.11a in new machines? You would think they would be using new technology rather than old.

The Windows guys have a load of A/B/G combo PCMCIA cards available. OSX has no drivers for any of them. I see no internet connection running over 11MBs anyway.

GeekyJeff · Mar 26, 2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Again, Mac fanatics are the ones to blame for this myth. Intel and the media are only stating the plain fact that this is the first chip that integrates wireless networking on the chip. Not only is it the first CPU to do that, it does so with very low voltages, high performance and means you don't need to buy a wireless LAN card. How great can a single product get within one generation?

I suggest you do a little homework. Centrino is not a "CHIP". If you notice they refer to it as a "Mobile Technology". The wireless networking is not integrated on the CPU. It is a certain kind of Intel CPU ("Intel Pentium M") A certain Intel chipset ("Intel� 855 Chipset Family") and A certain Intel wireless card ("Intel� PRO/Wireless 2100 network connection"). Check out this link http://intel.com/products/mobiletech...o/business.htm Click on "How it works" tab.

Again these are all seperate components. Not one chip. Not one CPU with WIRELESS built in.

GeekyJeff · Mar 26, 2003, 06:56 PM

While i'n on my highhorse. Intel is advertising Centrino insuch a way that leads people to believe that it is all one chip. To use the Centrino sticker on an OEM laptop they must use the three chips listed above in the laptop. No substitutions. Which means you can't use the Intel CPU, the Intel Chipset, and some other wireless networking built in. It has to be Intel for all 3 to be centrino.

chrisutley · Mar 26, 2003, 07:06 PM

PowerBook G4 17-inch
pros: Runs OS X

Centrino Laptops
cons: Do not run OS X

Until the performance divide is costing me big money or hurting my ability to compete in my industry, the only thing that matters is the OS and the Apps available for it.

KeriVit · Mar 26, 2003, 07:36 PM

But does the keyboard light up?

DimeTech · Mar 26, 2003, 08:55 PM

I don't understand this whole Centrino thing. Is it basically just Intel's version of the Airport Extreme Card, in the fact that you can connect on the go, at various hotspot locations? They make it seem like you can access a network or internet connection, without a hotspot, or something that is putting out the signal close by. Can someone please clear this up, as it all seems like a big load.

chrisutley · Mar 26, 2003, 08:58 PM

Mobile chip that uses less power yielding better battery life, gets better performance at lower clock speeds, plus integrated 802.11b networking.

Originally posted by DimeTech:
I don't understand this whole Centrino thing. Is it basically just Intel's version of the Airport Extreme Card, in the fact that you can connect on the go, at various hotspot locations? They make it seem like you can access a network or internet connection, without a hotspot, or something that is putting out the signal close by. Can someone please clear this up, as it all seems like a big load.

Cadaver · Mar 26, 2003, 11:04 PM

I just finished setting up my sister's Dell Inspiron 600m Centrino laptop.

The built-in 802.11b card worked just fine with my AirPort base station. The screen is a 14.1" LCD at 1400x1050 - lots of real estate but only looks good at the two highest brightness settings. It looks great when bright, but at lower settings it looks really washed out. The screen in my GigaBook is simply stellar. The case is entirely plastic and has areas that give easily. My TiBook is as thick closed as the Dell 600m is open. The speakers, mounted on the front edge of the machine, have fragile-feeling plastic slits for grilles. Push too hard with your thumb and I fear they might crack. The whole typing surface/wrist area will flex if you push down on any one area. My TiBook - rock solid in this respect.

Basically, if Apple ever made a machine this flimsy, they'd be lynched by the tech press. For Dell, it gets good reviews. The build quality of my 1GHz TiBook is ridiculously superior to the Dell 600m. The one saving grace the Dell has is it was slightly more than half the price of what I paid for the TiBook.

Performance-wise, it seems reasonably fast. It's a 1.4GHz Pentium-M and, on casual use, about as fast as my Dell 2.0GHz P4 desktop at work. Battery life so far seems to be a bit better than my 1GHz TiBook, however I run my G4 at full processor speed even on battery power, which costs some battery life.

For a Windows laptop, all in all, I guess it's all good. If it were an Apple laptop, it'd be total crap.

For the person who posted a message above comparing the Sony Z1 with the 17" PowerBook but thought the one feature he could do without was the 17" screen - why don't you think about the 15" TiBook. I still think it's one of the sleekest laptops on the market.

mrmister · Mar 26, 2003, 11:10 PM

Nice review. I think Centrino is a great and necessary step for laptops, and i am hoping that it pushes Apple to increase battery life--that's one of my #1 laptop issues.

DimeTech · Mar 26, 2003, 11:50 PM

What sort of battery life are we talking about? The 17" 's battery life isn't that great when running extensive apps, but I always find my way to an outlet if need be.

David Hagan · Mar 27, 2003, 12:42 AM

I caved and purchased a TiBook 867 only because:

1) I couldn't wait for the 17-inch, lucky for the wait though - after seeing it in person it was too big for me. I needed a portable now.

2) Couldn't wait around for Apple to update the 15-inch line.

3) 12-inch is too small for what I want to do with it.

4) BIGGEST FACTOR - I could get one for less than the 12-inch because of a friend's generous discount.

I have had the PowerBook for about 2 days.

But to the point: I get about 3 hours 20 mins on battery.

The screen is beautiful. The screen is so good I didn't realize the monitor came set to half brightness. On a side note, a friend of mine who did get the 17-inch had his screen set to half brightness too. Regardless, with full brightness it is like the Apple desktop displays...but having it on half brightness is likely the reason for the 3 hour 20 min. batt life.

seanyepez · Mar 27, 2003, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Again, Mac fanatics are the ones to blame for this myth. Intel and the media are only stating the plain fact that this is the first chip that integrates wireless networking on the chip. Not only is it the first CPU to do that, it does so with very low voltages, high performance and means you don't need to buy a wireless LAN card. How great can a single product get within one generation?

You have your facts mixed up. A notebook is a "Centrino" solution if it has Intel's Pentium-M CPU and Intel PRO/Wireless 2100 wireless hardware. Networking functionality is not part of the Pentium-M chip.

The Pentium-M is a fine processor, but speed isn't all that matters. I would much rather a 17-inch PowerBook than any Pentium-M notebook on the market at the moment. It's just better. This may change, but the 17-inch PowerBook is in a class of its own. Remember, Intel's PRO/Wireless 2100 chipset is only an 802.11b solution.

waxcrash · Mar 27, 2003, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by iwpro:
Speaking of 802.11b I don't know why the PC manufacturers aren't putting 802.11a in new machines? You would think they would be using new technology rather than old.

I think Intel did NOT use 802.11a in the Centrino because it is not compatible with 802.11b/g. I would guess there are not many 802.11a access points yet. Could you imagine if it DID have 802.11a and you could not use it at a hotel, Starbucks or McDonalds that had a public access point? Also, 802.11a consumes more power than 802.11b, which is not a good thing for a laptop. O'Reilly Network more info on the subject.

PoisonTooth · Mar 27, 2003, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by DimeTech:
I don't understand this whole Centrino thing. Is it basically just Intel's version of the Airport Extreme Card, in the fact that you can connect on the go, at various hotspot locations? They make it seem like you can access a network or internet connection, without a hotspot, or something that is putting out the signal close by. Can someone please clear this up, as it all seems like a big load.

NO. Centrino is a technology package consisting of the Banias (Pentium M) processor, the Intel 855 chipset which supports Banias and the 400MHz PSB, and the Intel 2100 Pro wireless miniPCI card for 802.11b wireless networking.

Intel isn't claiming to have invented wireless technology -- wireless cards have been around in PCs for a long time. Intel is marketing Centrino as a technology group that makes mobile computing the best it has ever been.

What people tend to overlook about Centrino is the Banias processor, which is a very low power unit (meaning it requires little power to run) that generates very little heat. The real kicker is that a 1.6 GHz Banias will outperform a 2.4 GHz DESKTOP P4. That's mighty impressive.

PoisonTooth · Mar 27, 2003, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by seanyepez:

The Pentium-M is a fine processor, but speed isn't all that matters. I would much rather a 17-inch PowerBook than any Pentium-M notebook on the market at the moment. It's just better. This may change, but the 17-inch PowerBook is in a class of its own. Remember, Intel's PRO/Wireless 2100 chipset is only an 802.11b solution.

I dunno. The ThinkPad T40 is an awfully nice machine, especially with the SXGA+ screen. The Dell Latitude D600 and D800 are really nice, too.

Also bear in mind that with most vendors -- IBM and Dell included -- you can easily forego Intel's wireless card and opt for something that includes 11a and 11g support. No problem at all.

PoisonTooth · Mar 27, 2003, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by waxcrash:
I think Intel did NOT use 802.11a in the Centrino because it is not compatible with 802.11b/g. I would guess there are not many 802.11a access points yet. Could you imagine if it DID have 802.11a and you could not use it at a hotel, Starbucks or McDonalds that had a public access point? Also, 802.11a consumes more power than 802.11b, which is not a good thing for a laptop. O'Reilly Network more info on the subject.

Hmm. I can order a Dell Centrino Latitude right now that includes 11a/11b/11g support right out of the box.

ph0ust · Mar 27, 2003, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by geekwagon:
Also no superdrive or 802.11g. 802.11b is old and slow these days...

EDIT: I just looked closer. There is also no bluetooth, the combo drive is half as fast at reading and writing CDRs than the 17" and no gigabit ethernet. It does have firewire, USB2 and a memory stick slot though.

g has hardly been ratified and there isn't anything officially compiant yet. that is likely the reason.

ph0ust · Mar 27, 2003, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by iwpro:
Speaking of 802.11b I don't know why the PC manufacturers aren't putting 802.11a in new machines? You would think they would be using new technology rather than old.

2 words: massive investment. many companies have speant millions on 802.11a wlans. once that happens it doesn't go away for a long time...

gator · Mar 27, 2003, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by PoisonTooth:
Hmm. I can order a Dell Centrino Latitude right now that includes 11a/11b/11g support right out of the box.

<RANDOM BASH>
No you can't. You can order a Dell Pentium-M notebook with an 802.11 a/b/g wireless adapter, but it's not a Centrino notebook. As stated many times already, the Centrino name can only be used when the notebook has the Intel Pro 2100 wireless along w/Pentium-M and the 855 Chipset.
</RANDOM BASH>

Gotta love Intel for making this Centrino deal as clear as people seem to have understood it so far

bluejam · Mar 27, 2003, 09:10 AM

After looking at every PC laptop out there(I was not thinking of switching at the time), I only saw one thing clear...Powerbook screens. They surpass any SXGA= and UXGA's for clarity, color saturation and brightness. What good is speed and battery life if it looks like crap and doesn't run OS X? Every time I go to my local mall, I pass by the Dell kiosk and look at the Inspirons. The color is terrible and they look dull. To me the only reason to purchase a PC notebook is if you truly can't afford an Apple. There is no point in comparing the two. It's Apples and Lemons.

PoisonTooth · Mar 27, 2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by gator:
<RANDOM BASH>
No you can't. You can order a Dell Pentium-M notebook with an 802.11 a/b/g wireless adapter, but it's not a Centrino notebook. As stated many times already, the Centrino name can only be used when the notebook has the Intel Pro 2100 wireless along w/Pentium-M and the 855 Chipset.
</RANDOM BASH>

Gotta love Intel for making this Centrino deal as clear as people seem to have understood it so far

Who cares if it's offically a "Centrino" or not? I don't base my buying decisions on what marketing tells me. If Dell or IBM have better-performing WiFi technology than Intel's native 2100 Centrino part, so what? No, I suppose my notebook isn't a true-blue Centrino, but then again, only Intel's marketing cares about that. In the end, I get an amazing processor, great PSB, and an excellent WiFi card that supports three standards.

So Intel doesn't win 3/3. So what. As a consumer, I win.

PoisonTooth · Mar 27, 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by bluejam:
After looking at every PC laptop out there(I was not thinking of switching at the time), I only saw one thing clear...Powerbook screens. They surpass any SXGA= and UXGA's for clarity, color saturation and brightness. What good is speed and battery life if it looks like crap and doesn't run OS X? Every time I go to my local mall, I pass by the Dell kiosk and look at the Inspirons. The color is terrible and they look dull. To me the only reason to purchase a PC notebook is if you truly can't afford an Apple. There is no point in comparing the two. It's Apples and Lemons.

Then you haven't looked hard enough, my friend. I agree that my TiBook's screen is awesome in terms of brightness, but for clarity, no -- a better resolution would help that. Color saturation, no -- have you ever seen a ThinkPad LCD, or Dell's UltraSharp? Very, very good.

If your whole argument is that no Centrino laptop has a screen as nice as Apple's, then you're in denial.

bluejam · Mar 27, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by PoisonTooth:
Then you haven't looked hard enough, my friend. I agree that my TiBook's screen is awesome in terms of brightness, but for clarity, no -- a better resolution would help that. Color saturation, no -- have you ever seen a ThinkPad LCD, or Dell's UltraSharp? Very, very good.

If your whole argument is that no Centrino laptop has a screen as nice as Apple's, then you're in denial.

If you read my statement, I looked at the Dull Ultrasharp(and ultra-expensive) a few times and I find the PB to be more vivid AND clear. I understand the resolutions of the PB are lower in numbers but for some darn reason(manufacturing, brightness levels?), the screens of the PB just look better. You need a magnifying glass to read the print on the higher res screens, also. Perhaps personal preference comes into play.
I have been shopping for my laptop for months now and I am only shocked and awed when I see the 17"Albook, which is what I am getting.

rowell · 03:18 AM

Unless the LCD is specifically built for Apple (which I doubt), other notebook makers would have access to that same inventory for use in their products. With the exception of custom designed components that are specific to Apple (e.g. Powerbook mainboards, aluminum/titanium enclosure), most of the other parts used in the building of the laptop are commodities (hard/optical drive, screens, etc.). So the same screen used in the Powerbooks may well be the same screen used in other high-end PC laptops.

Granted, the very same screen that is used in the Powerbooks, may seem "dull" in comparison when used in PC laptops because they are not actually *in* a Powerbook enclosure, despite being an indentical screen model. To me, that illustrates the power of Apple's Industrial design to elevate user experience in making a product greater than the sum of its parts.

With regards to the Pentium-M, I am extremely impressed with what Intel has done with their Banias architecture. Just read the in-depth review at Anandtech: an efficient processor and chipset architecture that runs as fast as a desktop, but draws much less power (read quieter, cooler and longer battery life). This will hopefully spur other innovations and galvanize competition within the industry. As a geek and platform-agnostic consumer, this is nothing but good news to me. With the exception of the whole Centrino branding campaign, it is one instance where engineering has triumphed over marketing at Intel.

The interesting thing about all of this is that some felt that Apple themselves must respond to Centrino, when technically, it is other chip manufacturers, like AMD or IBM, who should be worried about responding and not necessarily Apple. So it's apples and oranges so to speak. But I understand the spirit of the sentiment and I'm obviously splitting hairs with what people were saying. So I also agree: Apple must respond in some way to this challenge within the next few months, either with better processors or better performance gains in OSX updates (read snappier).

They may already have something up their sleeve if you believe rumors that the PPC970-powered macs will be introduced at the WWDC in June.