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DNA man · Jul 20, 2002, 05:23 AM

Making the assumption that you had easy access to Jaguar as a pirated copy would you choose to install the pirated copy? Or would you pay for the original software? Be honest here.

If you wish, you may comment on the decision you made

Sharky K. · Jul 20, 2002, 05:36 AM

10.2 has so many new features... get real get a legal copy.
If you can pirate .mac, that is oke with me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

drjoe · Jul 20, 2002, 05:39 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DNA man:
Making the assumption that you had easy access to Jaguar as a pirated copy would you choose to install the pirated copy? Or would you pay for the original software? Be honest here.

If you wish, you may comment on the decision you made<hr /></blockquote>I'm shocked, SHOCKED, to discover that piracy is going on in this forum!!

Shame · Jul 20, 2002, 05:39 AM

I heard that the copies used at the MWNY show were not paid for.

Hash · Jul 20, 2002, 05:46 AM

I heard that there are 1.5 million copied installations of 10.1. But so far, only 10% of user base have been estimated as moved to OSX completely. I guess, that there gonna even less movers given the apple policy on non-upgrades. There are no upgrades, only new installation discs. All in all, transition to OSX going to be slower because of the stupid pricing and because of some factors i describe below.

As far as the question is concerned, i had a chance to use many builds, including very recent ones. My conclusion: it has no merits worth upgrading. If you wish, you can do it, but it gonna be risky.

I have good working 10.15 with antialiasing; a lot of shareware and freeware will give you same functionality as in 10.2; 10.2 is NOT much faster compared to 10.15 - it gives very marginal speed increase, only noticeable when you open finder windows with 500 files and scrolling - otherwise QE is sort of invisible (and i found general speed to be basically same). Moreover, its buggy as hell (i mean recent builds - but final release is already should be ready in 2-3 weeks) - so it gonna contain a lot of bugs which will be corrected by a rainfall of updates SOON after the final release. 10.2 breaks some apps; you cant use menulets; prefpanes often dont work; drivers for 10.1 sometimes dont work; u have to manually move apps support library, preferences and so on. So 10.2 is as halfbaked as 10.0 was and probably will soon followed by 10.3 which will collection of fixes; and we may be charged full price for that again. If you want OSX, then the current 10.15 is just fine. Its not going to be much better; it may be worse in terms of choice of working third party additions. Speed is not phenomenal at all. It remains slow in many respects. Lets see how they gonna improve performance in remaining 2 weeks. I would say that digital hub prefs are not ready - at least in my opinion.

i guess i dont need both legal and illegal copies. I will wait for fully functional 10. 3 or maybe 10.5

And yes, i paid for 10.0 on March 2001 and got free update disc at a store. Does it answer your question?

[ 07-20-2002, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Hash ]

juanvaldes · Jul 20, 2002, 05:55 AM

you forgot a few options, like me for example. See I am getting a new powermac as soon as they are released (Aug 13th I bet) and if it does not come with jag reinstalled at that point I will pay the $20 shipping**********charge. Also, you forgot how students (and I think most of this forum) can get it for $69 or almost half off.

But otherwise, yes I will pay for 10.2

Nathan Adams · Jul 20, 2002, 06:12 AM

if you don't want to pay shipping charge - go to an Apple store, and you'll pay nothing.
that us$20 is >shipping< charge. That's the way it worked for 10.1, I can't see it being any different for the 10.2 deal for mac buyers during this period.

Gul Banana · Jul 20, 2002, 06:19 AM

I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I might incriminate myself. Honestly, I'm not sure...

mmurray · Jul 20, 2002, 07:07 AM

WIll you buy a separate copy of Jag for each of your machines --- thats the tricky question :-)

Michael

mrtew · Jul 20, 2002, 09:46 AM

I'm going to wait and see what people say about 10.2 when it's released before I pay the money. I just can't believe that Apple is going to sabotage the OSX movement by pissing off the people that have gone along with the new system. I know two people personally that have bought 10.1 within the last two months. Anyone want to tell me that they shouldn't be pissed. I saw 10.1 for sale at CompUSA last weekend. Anyone who bought it will be in for another $130 next month. Apple is almost as stupid as me for buying a bunch of Apple stock last week. I thought 10.2 would be a good thing that everyone would get, who knows if very many will now, I kinda doubt it. I thought the free iTools were ours to keep. I thought that sales were looking up. I had no idea that Steve had three pieces of Bad News for the Apple faithful: I've lost faith.

fmalloy · Jul 20, 2002, 09:55 AM

I would pirate Jaguar only to be able to use it before August 24. Then, I would buy it legitimately.

Honest!

And BTW, I even bought two copies of OS 9 because I have two Macs...

asxless · Jul 20, 2002, 10:23 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Tewksbury:
I'm going to wait and see what people say about 10.2 when it's released before I pay the money....<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. And I'm going to go to an Apple Store and test drive Jag throughly to verify that the final release includes...
* key Finder bug fixes and MIA functionality,
* PowerBook Energy Saver MIA functionality,
* other key OS 9 MIA funtionality, etc.
before I purchase the any OS X 'upgrade' at any price.

I really don't care about iChat, AddressBook, Quartz Extreme etc. if the basic functionality of OS X (e.g. Finder, Energy Saver) is still buggy or MIA.

asxless in iLand

Sarc · Jul 20, 2002, 10:27 AM

I proudly own the original Mac OS X in its box and the 10.1 upgrade CD in the folder like presentation.

Until august 24th, I will install every single build I can get my hands on. There I will buy and install my legit copy.

Sarc

EDIT: message structure + typo

[ 07-20-2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Sarc ]

zazou · Jul 20, 2002, 10:33 AM

This thread is just simply madness.

Look, it is enough already that people are pissered off that Apple is charge for Jag. Deal with it. This furor over pay/not to pay has been a feature of damn near every OS Mac release.

But there is only one thing that matters, whether you think they should charge or not:

They are charging for it and if you get it by any means other than paying for it ( including the EDU price if you don't really qualify for it ) you are stealing and are nothing less than a thief.

And there is no justification.

Spirit_VW · Jul 20, 2002, 10:37 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:

As far as the question is concerned, i had a chance to use many builds, including very recent ones. My conclusion: it has no merits worth upgrading. If you wish, you can do it, but it gonna be risky.

<hr /></blockquote>Quartz Extreme - Hardware-accelerated Quartz engine, faster interface, compositing of OpenGL & Quartz Compositor, etc. etc. etc.
Rendezvous - Brings simplicity of AppleTalk to TCP/IP networking. Automatic detection of computers over TCP/IP.
Rendezvous-aware iTunes - share music libraries over network (Airport streaming, etc.)
FreeBSD 4.4 equivalency
GCC 3.x compiler - system speedup as result
Ink - Handwriting recognition built in to the system.
iChat - Fully compatible AOL Instant Messaging client.
Quicktime 6
Spring-loaded folders
Change Desktop picture after specified time period
Desktop Picture changer fades between images like screensaver does
CUPS Printing system
Printer sharing
Internet Connection sharing (Airport Software Base Station on steroids)
Firewall control in System Preferences
New Menu Extras (Bluetooth File Sharing, Eject, etc.)
Bluetooth File Exchange app
Audio/MIDI Setup app
New System Preferences for "Digital Hub" (control of DV Camcorders, digital still cameras, audio CDs, blank CDs, iPods, etc. etc.)
Many improved System Preferences
System Preferences can be viewed by category (as in OS X 10.1) or by alphabetical order (as in OS X 10.0)
Developers can now use Brushed Metal interface appearance
Control of font sizes in the Finder
Display icon labels below or to the side of icons
Forward button in additon to back in Finder
New "Small Icons" option for app toolbars
Vastly upgraded Preview - new thumbnail drawer, new toolbar, etc.
Support for scanners in Image Capture
Beefed-up contextual menus
Vastly improved Calculator - brushed metal appearance, "paper tape" drawer, full Scientific mode, convert units
New Sherlock 3 - no longer does file searching. Internet only. Features new
"channels" like Watson - Internet search, Movies, Pictures, Yellow Pages, News, Stocks, Flights, Package tracking, Dictionary, Translation, and AppleCare Knowledge Base search.
New Find dialog in finder - search with multiple rules, etc.
New Search box in Finder toolbar - enter search terms and results are displayed in the current Finder window with a split view
Vastly improved Address Book
Improved Mail - much more robust Rules support, intelligent Spam filter, better performance, interface tweaks, consolidate multiple accounts into one Inbox, etc. etc.
System Sounds are back - sounds for removing from Dock, Trash operations, loggin in/out, iChat, system, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
New Zoom Windows - opening folders, etc. gives Quartz-smoothed "zooming window" effect like Scale Dock option
Vastly improved Show Info - Command+I opens individual Show Info windows (as in OS 9), with many more options, improved Permissions control, etc. Command+Option+I opens dynamic single Show Info window as in OS X 10.1.
Vastly improved Networking in Finder, vastly improved Windows sharing.
VPN support in Mail, etc.
Exchange support in Mail
Improved Finder (better multithreading)
Support for more systems in DVD Player
When using "snap to grid" in the Finder, files and folders will smoothly slide into place.
Ability to turn off Preview in column mode.
Application icon added to lower right corner of minimized windows to aide in differentiating them.
Spoken Interface option in Speech Preferences
Improved Disk Copy
Improved Apple System Profiler
New Aqua interface ("flatter" buttons etc)
The amount of antialiasing can be controlled (4 levels)
Subpixel rendering on LCDs
A removed user's home directory is saved as a disk image.
Netbooting
More info under the filename, like ID3-tags, size of images and number of files in folders - Examples: Display Hard Drive total/remaining space under name on desktop HD icon, display Track Length of MP3 files under file name in Finder windows.
Minimize in place of windows.
Screensaver "Slideshow" is improved, can download images from the 'net.
Anti-aliased mouse pointer with shadow.
Connect to FTP in the Finder
Separate settings in Energy Saver for Power Adapter and Battery
More man-pages.
Spellcheck in 10+ languages.
Python, TCL och Ruby included
Account features, quotas
No lines in the Dock
Better Terminal: new Inspector, scrollback, split windows, full UNICODE support
Address book can send SMS, control global variables in system?
Translation in Sherlock
Net installation
Can run AppleScript when new Digital Hub devices appear (drives, CDs, cameras...)
Disable trackpad when inserting mouse (optional)
Black-and-White screen (Universal Access)
All network activity (FTP, SSH, SMB etc) controlled from sharing, integrated with firewall
Classic programs will store settings in the users' folder, not OS 9 Preferences
Can see memory reqs of all Classic programs, even background.
Services in context-menu
New menu for PC-Card support (like the Eject menu).
Clean install option in Installer.
New unified color picker across all Carbon and Cocoa applications - features toolbar, color wheel as in current color picker, other modes INCLUDING crayon picker.
"Replace All" checkbox in copy dialogs.
New progress indicator replaces "chasing arrows".
New wait cursor replaces spinning rainbow wheel.
New cursors for copy, alias.

That's not even counting the ones I'm sure I missed. This is anything but a small, meaningless upgrade.

As for the speed, numerous people have said it IS noticeably faster than 10.1.

As for the bugginess, you really don't know. Personally I SERIOUSLY doubt that 10.2 is going to be ultra-buggy upon release.

zazou · Jul 20, 2002, 10:59 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:

As far as the question is concerned, i had a chance to use many builds, including very recent ones. My conclusion: it has no merits worth upgrading. If you wish, you can do it, but it gonna be risky.

<hr /></blockquote>1. That is just a load. Prior too the announcement that it would be paid this entire forum was hoping with the whole '10.2 is 'the cat's pajamas.' The list of new things has been posted scads of times. There were maybe one or two dissenters, but now it is just MacNN trendy-chic to be on the Bitch Boat.

2. Unless you are some kind of Carnac or �berKode geek how can you profess to know how the final version will perform? What great insight into development of third party apps do you possess to know things will be broken? If I recall, developers are capable of releasing updates as well.

Hey, it is cool if you don't want ot buy it... but your glorious insight bases on pirated beta build does not exactly inspire a lot of faith in your assessment.

Cheers

mark9939 · Jul 20, 2002, 11:06 AM

I do have a couple pirated apps, but I hardly ever use them. For something as big as an operating system, that I will use day in and day out, I feel that EVERYONE should pay for it. 130 bucks isn't that much, guys.

Plus, I have to put that sweet Jaguar box in a place of honor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

JLL · Jul 20, 2002, 11:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:
I heard that there are 1.5 million copied installations of 10.1. But so far, only 10% of user base have been estimated as moved to OSX completely.<hr /></blockquote>And that 10% equals 2.5 million users.

PowerMatt · Jul 20, 2002, 11:20 AM

Apple has been fortunate to not have the piracy problem that Microsoft has. If the Mac community starts to pirate like the PC community does, I fear that Apple will have to go to a PID checker and $300 opperating systems. I don't want to have to pay for other people's software.

BTP · Jul 20, 2002, 11:52 AM

I'll pay for it.

What amazes me is that people can't get over the fact that is it going to cost for 10.2. Everyone is complaining and, true, I'd love to have 10.2 for cheap or free, but Apple is a business and has been acting like it for a while now. The balance, it seems, it pleasing the user base and staying in business.

Its apparent that some of you would want Apple to give 10.2 away and lose moeny, which is not a good plan if they want to be around in the future. True it is not free as in Linux, but it isn't expensive as in M$.

I'll admit that the .mac pricing got me, but after looking at it, it isn't so bad. Some have said they have taken a page from M$, and in this case, good for them. I like Apple products and I want them to be around in the future. So if they are making revenue from selling their software and service, that is fine with me. (broken promises and wishes for lower costs for the products and services aside)

People expect Apple to be comptitive and in doing so they have to make tough calls, this likely one of them. DO you think they thought that people were going to cheer .mac's costs when they had some of it's services for free? Or that there was not 10.1 ->10.2 upgrade pricing, etc? Or do you think they are full of coprorate greed? Revenue is the lifeblood of any company.

If you pirate 10.2, that is your business. If you pirate it as a form of protest, it is biting the hand that feeds you and you are working against the efforts of making this and future software from Apple.

I may not prefer to pay $129 for 10.2 or $99/year for .mac, but for me, I'll support the company that makes my OS of choice, hopefully ensuring it will always be there for me.

That said, you may now commmence with the 'apologist' name calling. Oh, and if you do, explain how Apple is supposed to give up channels of revenue and still compete with a company that *earned in profits* what Apple made in *revenue*. (Giving away things! Good plan!)

gorgonzola · Jul 20, 2002, 11:58 AM

Absolutely, I'll pay. As far as I'm concerned, $129 is a great upgrade price for what I'm getting. I think it's ridiculous and obnoxious to pirate this upgrade, frankly. Of course, there are some people that could care less about reimbursing other people for creating a product, and they'll always be around, but I see no reason why people who normally don't pirate software would be thinking of pirating this.

If you can't afford $129 and you need to wait, you wait. You don't just steal the software.

Borborygmi · Jul 20, 2002, 12:04 PM

My problem with buying 10.2 isn't that it costs $129... it's that an upgrade from 10 (which I paid full price for) is ALSO $129. An early adopter who paid full price should not IMHO have to pay full price again for an UPDATE to an OS. Say what you will, but 10.2 is just an update to 10.0 and 10.1 and is giving us most of the features which should have been there in the first place. So, yes, I would install a pirated copy. If Apple allows me to buy an upgrade CD for $50, I would purchase it legit.

P.S. Anyone know if the bug is fixed in 10.2 where you rename a file and the cursor is invisible while you're moving back and forth through the name with the arrow keys?

Hash · Jul 20, 2002, 12:05 PM

Well, i understand your concerns. Its just my personal impression. Yes, we dont know how the GM or whatever released on August 24 will perform. Of course, Apple is doing very rapid progress, nevertheless, it seems to be near impossible that all those multiple bugs can be fixed in 2 weeks. Thats why i think its gonna be buggy. If you prove otherwise, well, thats just good.

Second, yeah, i know about 150+ features which presumable Jagwire deliveres, there is no need to cite that apple page. At the end of the day, it boils down to simple useability and general impressions. Will an ordinary user care for version of BSD or other things he does not even want to know about? WHat he cares is speed and stability, usability and so on. In those quite general terms, I found Jagwire to be not so different from 10.15. Visually - yes- it got some cool gadgets, new progress bars or should i say circles, but in terms of what you can do with 10.1 now and 10.2 with a SINGLE machine i found it to be very similar. If you got some kind of network, especially Windows network to be connected with, then i guess, i will feel merits.

Otherwise its pretty same experience, and moreover, a lot of third party things which worked fine, does not work in those builds. So, I am waiting how bleeding edge adopters gonna evaluate the final one (and i guess, i myself will do it). But anyway, i think we should not expect wonders. Its still looks and behaves essentially in same way as 10.1x + iApps +better connectivity (if works). It also got some very nasty bugs, i think, related with QE, which is essentially the main part of new additions in Jagwire. I did not test Rendezvous which i think is very cool one (but we gonna have a lot of third party similar apps as i guess).

After learning of user experience, i m gonna decide on upgrade. I dont use much OSX, only for some apps, which dont work in 9, so for me the upgrade is not urgent one at all.

Lastly, I think Apple did everything wrong this time, They screwed everything they could. I am afraid that buggy and halfbaked release of 10.2 in August will screw things even more. I am also afraid that in middle of August they may again disappoint users by announcing not what all users want - REALLY fast hardware- but a mild speed bump and iMacs wont even get it.. This company is losing direction i believe..

KidRed · Jul 20, 2002, 12:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Borborygmi:
My problem with buying 10.2 isn't that it costs $129... it's that an upgrade from 10 (which I paid full price for) is ALSO $129. An early adopter who paid full price should not IMHO have to pay full price again for an UPDATE to an OS. Say what you will, but 10.2 is just an update to 10.0 and 10.1 and is giving us most of the features which should have been there in the first place. So, yes, I would install a pirated copy. If Apple allows me to buy an upgrade CD for $50, I would purchase it legit.

P.S. Anyone know if the bug is fixed in 10.2 where you rename a file and the cursor is invisible while you're moving back and forth through the name with the arrow keys?<hr /></blockquote>Not sure how long you've used macs, but this is nothing ol. OS 8 was full price, 8.1, 8.2 (other) was free but 8.5 was full price I believe. OS 9 was full price while 9.1 and 9.2 have been free.

Just think if this as OS 11 but keeping the 10 and adding the 11 together giving you 10.2.

mikemako · Jul 20, 2002, 12:14 PM

my choice:

c: both a and b

install the pirated one for now just because I am curious, then purchse the GM when it is released.

billybob · Jul 20, 2002, 12:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Borborygmi:

P.S. Anyone know if the bug is fixed in 10.2 where you rename a file and the cursor is invisible while you're moving back and forth through the name with the arrow keys?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, it is. Thank god. I cant believe apple didnt fix that in 10.1.x release. ****ing ridiculous. But I am so glad that it is finally fixed.

K++ · Jul 20, 2002, 01:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:
I heard that there are 1.5 million copied installations of 10.1. But so far, only 10% of user base have been estimated as moved to OSX completely. I guess, that there gonna even less movers given the apple policy on non-upgrades. There are no upgrades, only new installation discs. All in all, transition to OSX going to be slower because of the stupid pricing and because of some factors i describe below.

As far as the question is concerned, i had a chance to use many builds, including very recent ones. My conclusion: it has no merits worth upgrading. If you wish, you can do it, but it gonna be risky.

I have good working 10.15 with antialiasing; a lot of shareware and freeware will give you same functionality as in 10.2; 10.2 is NOT much faster compared to 10.15 - it gives very marginal speed increase, only noticeable when you open finder windows with 500 files and scrolling - otherwise QE is sort of invisible (and i found general speed to be basically same). Moreover, its buggy as hell (i mean recent builds - but final release is already should be ready in 2-3 weeks) - so it gonna contain a lot of bugs which will be corrected by a rainfall of updates SOON after the final release. 10.2 breaks some apps; you cant use menulets; prefpanes often dont work; drivers for 10.1 sometimes dont work; u have to manually move apps support library, preferences and so on. So 10.2 is as halfbaked as 10.0 was and probably will soon followed by 10.3 which will collection of fixes; and we may be charged full price for that again. If you want OSX, then the current 10.15 is just fine. Its not going to be much better; it may be worse in terms of choice of working third party additions. Speed is not phenomenal at all. It remains slow in many respects. Lets see how they gonna improve performance in remaining 2 weeks. I would say that digital hub prefs are not ready - at least in my opinion.

i guess i dont need both legal and illegal copies. I will wait for fully functional 10. 3 or maybe 10.5

And yes, i paid for 10.0 on March 2001 and got free update disc at a store. Does it answer your question?<hr /></blockquote>well shucks, a beta that doesn't work right, who'd have thunk it? Especially when you consider the fact that you downloaded it from some warez carracho server and expected completely perfect backwards compatibility.

Drivers don't work from 10.1 to 10.2 oh no, a system update makes you need new drivers for certain things, when has that happened before?

Did you at least go to macWorld and run a non illegally downloaded versino to see what its supposed to be like? Nope, just made halfassed comments about software you never should have had in the first place.

[ 07-20-2002, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: K++ ]

Hash · Jul 20, 2002, 01:51 PM

Why do you think i own it?? I had a chance to play with it - read it..Thats different thing, dude. I will be only glad if its gonna be real killer OS - then I am going to buy it as always i do..IF

absmiths · Jul 20, 2002, 11:23 PM

Yeah, I'll pay for it. I too want Apple to stay in business, and unlike many others in this forum, I recognize the incredible effort Apple has put into this thing.

Actually, I have already ordered it.

absmiths · Jul 20, 2002, 11:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Borborygmi:
My problem with buying 10.2 isn't that it costs $129... it's that an upgrade from 10 (which I paid full price for) is ALSO $129. An early adopter who paid full price should not IMHO have to pay full price again for an UPDATE to an OS. Say what you will, but 10.2 is just an update to 10.0 and 10.1 and is giving us most of the features which should have been there in the first place. So, yes, I would install a pirated copy. If Apple allows me to buy an upgrade CD for $50, I would purchase it legit.

P.S. Anyone know if the bug is fixed in 10.2 where you rename a file and the cursor is invisible while you're moving back and forth through the name with the arrow keys?<hr /></blockquote>Well why didn't you tell Apple in the first place what features should have been there - that could have saved us so much trouble?

So the difference between you as a thief and you as an honest person is only $79? Amazing...

absmiths · Jul 20, 2002, 11:32 PM

One more thing - I would never trust any pirate sites for an OS. It seems to me that there are a lot of people in this forum who harp about security constantly and then install a pirated OS - talk about risk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

robotmarkVIII · Jul 21, 2002, 12:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spirit_VW:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Hash:

As far as the question is concerned, i had a chance to use many builds, including very recent ones. My conclusion: it has no merits worth upgrading. If you wish, you can do it, but it gonna be risky.

<hr /></blockquote>Quartz Extreme - Hardware-accelerated Quartz engine, faster interface, compositing of OpenGL & Quartz Compositor, etc. etc. etc.
Rendezvous - Brings simplicity of AppleTalk to TCP/IP networking. Automatic detection of computers over TCP/IP.
Rendezvous-aware iTunes - share music libraries over network (Airport streaming, etc.)
FreeBSD 4.4 equivalency
GCC 3.x compiler - system speedup as result
Ink - Handwriting recognition built in to the system.
iChat - Fully compatible AOL Instant Messaging client.
Quicktime 6
Spring-loaded folders
Change Desktop picture after specified time period
Desktop Picture changer fades between images like screensaver does
CUPS Printing system
Printer sharing
Internet Connection sharing (Airport Software Base Station on steroids)
Firewall control in System Preferences
New Menu Extras (Bluetooth File Sharing, Eject, etc.)
Bluetooth File Exchange app
Audio/MIDI Setup app
New System Preferences for "Digital Hub" (control of DV Camcorders, digital still cameras, audio CDs, blank CDs, iPods, etc. etc.)
Many improved System Preferences
System Preferences can be viewed by category (as in OS X 10.1) or by alphabetical order (as in OS X 10.0)
Developers can now use Brushed Metal interface appearance
Control of font sizes in the Finder
Display icon labels below or to the side of icons
Forward button in additon to back in Finder
New "Small Icons" option for app toolbars
Vastly upgraded Preview - new thumbnail drawer, new toolbar, etc.
Support for scanners in Image Capture
Beefed-up contextual menus
Vastly improved Calculator - brushed metal appearance, "paper tape" drawer, full Scientific mode, convert units
New Sherlock 3 - no longer does file searching. Internet only. Features new
"channels" like Watson - Internet search, Movies, Pictures, Yellow Pages, News, Stocks, Flights, Package tracking, Dictionary, Translation, and AppleCare Knowledge Base search.
New Find dialog in finder - search with multiple rules, etc.
New Search box in Finder toolbar - enter search terms and results are displayed in the current Finder window with a split view
Vastly improved Address Book
Improved Mail - much more robust Rules support, intelligent Spam filter, better performance, interface tweaks, consolidate multiple accounts into one Inbox, etc. etc.
System Sounds are back - sounds for removing from Dock, Trash operations, loggin in/out, iChat, system, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
New Zoom Windows - opening folders, etc. gives Quartz-smoothed "zooming window" effect like Scale Dock option
Vastly improved Show Info - Command+I opens individual Show Info windows (as in OS 9), with many more options, improved Permissions control, etc. Command+Option+I opens dynamic single Show Info window as in OS X 10.1.
Vastly improved Networking in Finder, vastly improved Windows sharing.
VPN support in Mail, etc.
Exchange support in Mail
Improved Finder (better multithreading)
Support for more systems in DVD Player
When using "snap to grid" in the Finder, files and folders will smoothly slide into place.
Ability to turn off Preview in column mode.
Application icon added to lower right corner of minimized windows to aide in differentiating them.
Spoken Interface option in Speech Preferences
Improved Disk Copy
Improved Apple System Profiler
New Aqua interface ("flatter" buttons etc)
The amount of antialiasing can be controlled (4 levels)
Subpixel rendering on LCDs
A removed user's home directory is saved as a disk image.
Netbooting
More info under the filename, like ID3-tags, size of images and number of files in folders - Examples: Display Hard Drive total/remaining space under name on desktop HD icon, display Track Length of MP3 files under file name in Finder windows.
Minimize in place of windows.
Screensaver "Slideshow" is improved, can download images from the 'net.
Anti-aliased mouse pointer with shadow.
Connect to FTP in the Finder
Separate settings in Energy Saver for Power Adapter and Battery
More man-pages.
Spellcheck in 10+ languages.
Python, TCL och Ruby included
Account features, quotas
No lines in the Dock
Better Terminal: new Inspector, scrollback, split windows, full UNICODE support
Address book can send SMS, control global variables in system?
Translation in Sherlock
Net installation
Can run AppleScript when new Digital Hub devices appear (drives, CDs, cameras...)
Disable trackpad when inserting mouse (optional)
Black-and-White screen (Universal Access)
All network activity (FTP, SSH, SMB etc) controlled from sharing, integrated with firewall
Classic programs will store settings in the users' folder, not OS 9 Preferences
Can see memory reqs of all Classic programs, even background.
Services in context-menu
New menu for PC-Card support (like the Eject menu).
Clean install option in Installer.
New unified color picker across all Carbon and Cocoa applications - features toolbar, color wheel as in current color picker, other modes INCLUDING crayon picker.
"Replace All" checkbox in copy dialogs.
New progress indicator replaces "chasing arrows".
New wait cursor replaces spinning rainbow wheel.
New cursors for copy, alias.

That's not even counting the ones I'm sure I missed. This is anything but a small, meaningless upgrade.

As for the speed, numerous people have said it IS noticeably faster than 10.1.

As for the bugginess, you really don't know. Personally I SERIOUSLY doubt that 10.2 is going to be ultra-buggy upon release.<hr /></blockquote>Actually that's roughly 83 features. More than a dollar per feature

asxless · Jul 21, 2002, 12:43 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by robotmarkVIII:
Actually that's roughly 83 features. More than a dollar per feature

<hr /></blockquote>But who's counting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

asxless in iLand

Spirit_VW · Jul 21, 2002, 01:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by robotmarkVIII:
]Actually that's roughly 83 features. More than a dollar per feature

<hr /></blockquote>And also notice that I said I'm sure I missed some - I can't keep track of ALL of them.

My point is that saying Jaguar has nothing to offer is just ridiculous.

eno · Jul 21, 2002, 01:33 PM

I intend to pirate 10.2, just like I did every version of their OS since 7.5.5 (which came with my computer, and hence is the only one I've ever paid for).

Thank god Apple doesn't bother with serial numbers for its OS like MS does.

And how sweet all those "pirated" dev builds have been, starting with Rhapsody DR1 and leading all the way up to the present day.

Nebagakid · Jul 21, 2002, 01:39 PM

So,all you people who aren't going to pay for it are also going to bitch when it does not do what you expect? Hmmmm, SHUT THE **** UP YOU **** FACES! WHY DON'T YOU JUST SUCK IT UP AND DECIDE TO PAY FOR IT OR NOT....NON OF THIS "I think it is too much..."

DID ANY OF YOU PAY THOSE $99 CLASSIC UPDATES FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS OR SO? HMM???? YOU PEOPLE ARE AMAZING,

If you want it, you have to pay for it. This whole idea of services should be free, it is incredible, things cost money....the internet is not free...Jesus!

piracy · Jul 21, 2002, 02:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by eno:
I intend to pirate 10.2, just like I did every version of their OS since 7.5.5 (which came with my computer, and hence is the only one I've ever paid for).

Thank god Apple doesn't bother with serial numbers for its OS like MS does.

And how sweet all those "pirated" dev builds have been, starting with Rhapsody DR1 and leading all the way up to the present day.<hr /></blockquote>And you're proud of this?

PerfectlyNormalBeast · Jul 21, 2002, 02:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zazou:
[QB]They are charging for it and if you get it by any means other than paying for it ( including the EDU price if you don't really qualify for it ) you are stealing and are nothing less than a thief.[QB]<hr /></blockquote>I sure am nothing less than a theif. Way way less...

Agent69 · Jul 21, 2002, 02:56 PM

Back when I had my Rev. C iMac, I did install a friend's copy of MacOS X to see if I would like it. I did, so I went out to CompUSA and bought a copy.

Hash · Jul 21, 2002, 03:01 PM

I am qualified for edu price and intend to pay it, but the principle that there is not upgrade price is really making me sad. Apple is acting like a monopoly and it is a monopoly: its even more monopolisting than MS, which does not control hardware prices in PC world (and thanks to hardware competitive prices PC are looking attractive); in mac world we have absolute 100% monopoly of Apple and it exersizes it recently just mercilessly. I wont go bankrupt paying edu price; but the problem is that Apple could easily decide to charge 250$ for OS and there is no way we could do anythng about it.. i predict that Apple will exersize its monopoly many times again..argghh,,,if we had cheaper hardware options, i could live it with it.

Groovy · Jul 21, 2002, 03:27 PM

Wow tuff call.

I guess for me it all depends if the $129 I paid already i have what i feel
OS X should have been from day one. I have to say NO 10.0 is crap.

upgrade price of say $50 ok fine. Full price as if I'm a newbie to OS X and buying
for the first time. Hell no. Apple is making a mistake based on their current
sales slump. Same reason for .mac IMHO. Short term cash, long term pi$$ed
off core mac users.

You see if we pay $129 AGAIN because apple claims how great jaguar is
then what the heck was 10.0? It was a POS get it out BETA and not ready for
prime time. (IMHO of course)

$129 for a the first buy and stick to $50 major upgrades for everyone after they
paid the first $129 (or bought a mac with it installed) Is how I feel it should go.

If a ton of people pirate 10.2 then apple will not make a much as if they just
charged $50 for the upgrade and not many pirate it since getting the CD's and
the upgrade is worth $50.

Like always just my humble opinion ; )

t_hah · Jul 21, 2002, 03:54 PM

If I had a chance I would install a coy of course, but I would also buy it when the final is out. I want to and will support my favorite computer system, hw and sw company.

t

Jul 21, 2002, 04:51 PM

Man, the discussion should be over within a few months, if so much at all. Everybody will have familiarized with the feeling that .mac costs some money and that Jaguar costs some money and that Apple just needs that money to make no losses during the current quater.

Steve

Chrisspoon · Jul 21, 2002, 05:06 PM

funny because everybody seems to be ashamed by the idea of pirating jaguar...

...but 95% of the thrads on macnn.osx forums talk about 10.2 6XXX versions that everybody seems to have installed on their machine...

ahah......

....pathetic

Appleman · Jul 21, 2002, 05:54 PM

I'll pay for it. See reply of BTP. Period.

DNA man · Jul 21, 2002, 06:22 PM

Mmm! The poll is closer than I thought. Good lively debate though.

talisker · Jul 21, 2002, 06:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chrisspoon:
funny because everybody seems to be ashamed by the idea of pirating jaguar...

...but 95% of the thrads on macnn.osx forums talk about 10.2 6XXX versions that everybody seems to have installed on their machine...

ahah......

....pathetic<hr /></blockquote>But there's a fundamental difference. No matter what side of the fence you're on regarding downloading pirated pre-release builds, you'd have to admit the legal & moral arguments are fairly complex and there's some grey areas in there. Whereas installing a pirated copy of 10.2 after release is much more clear cut - it is theft pure and simple. Putting the legality aside, the main moral difference is the motivation for using the pirated software. In the case of pre-release builds it is to discover what the next version will bring and how the development is going, but with finished releases it is to get something for free and avoid paying.

ReggieX · Jul 21, 2002, 06:52 PM

winterlandia · Jul 21, 2002, 08:25 PM

Yup, not yet. They seem to follow MS's lead on everything though (so do other software vendors) so don't be surprised if they do this in the future...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by eno:
Thank god Apple doesn't bother with serial numbers for its OS like MS does.<hr /></blockquote>

Groovy · Jul 21, 2002, 10:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />after release is much more clear cut - it is theft pure and simple. <hr /></blockquote>I have to disagree to the extent that it depends on if Apple committed fraud
by charging $129 for 10.0. Apple claimed it was much more than it turned out
to be. Basically we paid full price for a beta IMHO. Apple claimed more macs would be
fully supported than it turned out to be also until some pressure was put on them.

The proof is that most everyone thought 10.0 was not that good and that Apple
was forced to put out fixes in a hurry again and again including 10.1. which was
and still is sub par.

If 10.2 is a good as everyone says (beats me I have not used any betas of 10.2)
Then 10.2 is really 10.0. A line has to be drawn somewhere between beta
and true release worthiness. 10.0 was NOT true release worthy IMHO.

Apple now says LOOK AT ALL these new features and speed you will get in 10.2
Where was this stuff in 10.0? We are talking basic stuff like SPEED and SOUND.
We did not and still do not have even BASIC OS FEATURES like sound when doing
stuff like empty the trash etc... but hey we get inkwell. LOL stuff like inkwell
should be stuff you BUY like an upgrade to QUICKTIME PRO. I bet less than 5%
use inkwell yet Apple uses it to help justify the cost of 10.2.

Anyway going by what everyone says who has these betas of 10.2 it has speed
and sound as well as other basic stuff that should have been there from day one
so 10.2 is IMHO the first version that looks to be truly release worthy and not a beta.

Likes always just my humble opinion