[calverson]

The poll is pretty self explanatory.

[JKT]

I didn't vote as I don't have a MBP, but can I include the PCI card slot in my Powerbook for this discussion, though it isn't an EC one? The only thing I have ever used it for was to see if the Wi-Fi card that my work laptop was provided with would work with a Mac. It kept Kernel Panicking so the answer was no.

However, when my parents Airport card fried and damaged the connection in their own Powerbook and the USB Wi-Fi stick they used to replace it subsequently failed, I got a Mac compatible card for the slot on it and that one works fine.

[ghporter]

ExpressCard is an advanced, evolutionary step past the PC card, and it was developed by the same consortium.

And I have not used the slot in my late 2006 MBP because I haven't found a need for one. I don't have a mobile WiFi requirement (that isn't satisfied in Starbucks or Barnes & Noble), and I have not yet identified an EC that did anything else useful for me. Maybe a GPS unit in one...but what would I do with my "Bat-Utility Belt" full of other GPS units?

I think lots of people use their EC slots, but there isn't yet a "killer app" EC device that will bring everybody onboard and demanding more devices.

[Cold Warrior]

Never used it.

[RevEvs]

I never used it up until a couple of weeks ago. i now have an SSD in there, and use it as the boot partition.

However, If I were to buy a new machine I would have the main HD be SSD, and thus not use the EC card slot

[Eug]

Originally Posted by RevEvs 

I never used it up until a couple of weeks ago. i now have an SSD in there, and use it as the boot partition.

However, If I were to buy a new machine I would have the main HD be SSD, and thus not use the EC card slot

You could use SD as a boot drive as well, although AFAIK, the fastest EC SSDs are significantly faster than the fastest SD cards.

[OreoCookie]

Last time I've used it was somewhere between 1998 and 2000 on my first notebook and Mac, a PowerBook G3. Not sure what kind of card it was (perhaps some networking card).

The only thing that may make such a slot interesting for me is the possibility of connecting SATA drives to it.

[indigoimac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The only thing that may make such a slot interesting for me is the possibility of connecting SATA drives to it.

I haven't used it yet because I have a couple FW800 enclosures, but I think that leaving the possibility for eSATA is something that Apple should really consider. Hell, they should just include the damn port on the machine the controllers they use have no issues supporting the extra port and it's pretty small too.

That said, it is one feature for expandability that makes me not feel dated w. either of my MBPs because I know I have a way of adding some future port without having to buy a new machine.

[RevEvs]

Originally Posted by Eug 

You could use SD as a boot drive as well, although AFAIK, the fastest EC SSDs are significantly faster than the fastest SD cards.

I could, however It will be quite a while until a SD card comes close to SSD in speed. (SD tops at ~45MB/sec, SSD > 100MB/sec)

[amazing]

I was all excited about using my expresscard slot.

Now I'm very disappointed.

I've got 2 different cards, 3 different drives, and all combinations have produced kernel panics. You can go to xlr8yourmac.com and see many similar reports.

Bummer.

[Eug]

Heh. That description of EC is like what Firewire sometimes was with Mac OS X 10.0.

[discostu665]

OK, I voted honestly- no, I haven't used it yet. But that doesn't mean I'm going to use SD anytime soon. I still think it was an inane choice to replace EC with SD; EC was more versatile, and faster. Hooray for taking steps backward!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by indigoimac 

I haven't used it yet because I have a couple FW800 enclosures, but I think that leaving the possibility for eSATA is something that Apple should really consider. Hell, they should just include the damn port on the machine the controllers they use have no issues supporting the extra port and it's pretty small too.

I guess they're waiting for bus powered eSATA which is not part of the SATA standard.

[amazing]

I guess I'm comparing my dismal experience with EC to my wonderful experience with the slot in my Ti-400. Never had a problem with reliability using first an 11-b and later an 11-G wireless card. I expected the same reliability and ease of use with the EC slot--and got quite the opposite.

Which made me wonder whether Jobs also experienced that unreliability--and whether that was the single digit that counted in banning EC.

[calverson]

30 people voted.

9 use, 21 don't.

I think that it is pretty safe to say that more than 9 of the people who voted in this poll use SD.

Maybe it was not such a bad move, hey Apple?

[starman]

Voted no.

[amazing]

Here's a quote from Griffin Technology about their eSATA EC--doesn't express much hope for stability, does it?

" My external drive has multiple interfaces. Will it work?

We have found that you might have trouble with a multi-interface drive if it utilizes the Oxford chipset. If the drive uses this chipset, you will need to check with the manufacturer of your external drive to see if they have encountered problems under Leopard."

Griffin Technology: Support for eSATA ExpressCard/34

[amazing]

Next, here's a quote from the Sonnet EC product page--and guess what? I've got Oxford chipset drives...

Sonnet - Tempo SATA Pro ExpressCard/34: SATA Controller for MacBook Pro and PC Notebooks
(3) While some customers have successfully used external hard drives with USB 2.0/eSATA dual interface, these products (based on the Oxford Semiconductor OXU931DS storage controller chip) exhibit underlying errors that prevent them from being fully compatible with this Sonnet product under Mac OS X. Kernel panics occurring when the drive is connected, and the drive not being recognized by the operating system are known issues. These drives include, but are not limited to:

• Western Digital My Book™ Premium ES Edition™
• Seagate Technology FreeAgent™ Pro

External hard drives with USB 2.0/eSATA dual interface based on the JMicron 20336 are fully compatible. These drives include but are not limited to:

• OWC Mercury On-The-Go USB 2.0/eSATA 2.5" Portable
Sonnet's Fusion D400Q and R400Q quad-interface storage systems are not affected by these issues, and are fully supported.

[GENERAL_SMILEY]

I use it with an ESATA card, never had any problems, I just bought a generic card, and use it fine with some multi interface drives from Lacie (only USB and ESATA though).

I find it better than firewire 800, more stable, better throughput.

[amazing]

No denying that it works for some, but not others.

Just coincidence: today macintouch.com has reader reports on eSATA (under HD). One comment says:

"The problem with Express/34 cards coming out of the slot is a well known issue with every laptop using that slot be it PC or Mac. The slot is just badly designed or rather the spring mechanism that is supposed to keep a card in place is badly designed. I'm sure you can Google up lots of reports of this problem. So the problem isn't unique to Apiotek or anyone else making these sorts of cards."

That prompted me to Google the problem, and yes there's loads of problems about loose ECs "falling out" in Dells or Lenovos, and Macs. There's even one port that states that Apple knows about the loose EC slots and that the replacement part they ship under Applecare is different and fits the EC better. No way to tell if that's accurate or blowing thru the nose.

[QSilver]

Early 2008 MBP

Never used it.

[scottiB]

Early 2008 MBP--have an SD card reader in it, so losing it is not that large a deal; however, I only buy 17" MBPs, so the point is doubley moot.

[Drakino]

I used it for a while to have an eSATA drive attached to my MacBook Pro. Day to day though, the slot was pretty useless, and had my system included a Firewire 800 port, I would have used it instead.

SD is also pretty worthless for me, as I have a Sony PSP and Sony digital camera, both using memory stick. Sadly the memory card market is still horribly fractured, with CF. SD, xD, and Memory Stick still holding chunks of the market. And since the SD slot in the MacBook doesn't support SDIO, it leaves out the fun toys and is just a storage slot.

[moep]

Yes, I do.
I have two cards - one is a HSUPA card which I rarely use. If the 3GS is sufficiently fast with tethering I’ll probably just use that.
The second card is the 21in1 reader made by Sonnet. It is completely flush with the computer case so I leave it in the slot whenever I don’t use the WWAN card.

[davidflas]

I plan on buying a new 17" MBP in the next two weeks. I'd like to use the EC slot to hook up a quad interface OWC HD. Has anyone had success in getting this setup to work well? If so, what EC card are you using?

[amazing]

your chance of successfully using an eSATA expresscard go up if you leave the laptop stationary on a desk for the entire time. That means that you're using external keyboard and mouse. If you plan on using the eSATA card while the laptop is on your lap, you can forget it.

The card will work itself loose, primarily because of the loose mechanism and the rigidity of the eSATA cables.

I've got both EC cards that OWC sells, neither is reliable unless used stationary on a desk. That's not the way I work.

[israces]

I use it all the time for a memory stick reader for my Sony camera. It fits flush, so I leave the reader in all the time. Wish Apple put in a multiple format card reader instead of just SD.

[Big Mac]

I haven't used it yet, but I've only had an EC capable Mac for less than a year.

[Eriamjh]

I've never used mine, however I could use an SD reader.

When I first got a digital camera, I bought PC Card Compact flash reader for my Pismo. Now, as long as it's USB, it's good for me.

[amazing]

Card readers work just fine, because they don't stick out and don't have cables--therefore they don't wiggle around and come loose.

[schalliol]

I posted my VERY positive experience with a SSD ExpressCard here. Love it love it love it!

[SierraDragon]

As usual, like most polls this poll is worded in such a way as to predetermine some silly outcome.

Much of the point of having an EC slot is some currently unknown future usage that may significantly extend the useful life of the box. What portion of responding users currently use the EC slot is of very limited relevance. E.g.

• The useful the life of my G3 PB was doubled by the card-slot connections made to standards like USB that did not exist when the PB was new.

• I was still shooting film when I bought my G4 PB, but the PB later turned out to be far more useful due to the CF card adapter. On my dad's G4 PB used as a desktop we (inexpensively) used the card slot to replace a failed port, again extending box life.

• When I bought my 2.33 GHz MBP eSATA and hard drive throughput seemed to be of low importance. Since then my pro photo workflow with Aperture, 2 computers and lots of drives evolved to make hard drive connectivity a huge issue that the EC slot eSATA helps facilitate.

• FW800 is pretty good, so eSATA's benefit to me although significant is not extreme. However, when I bought my 2.33 GHz MBP SSD EC did not exist. Now it looks like this laptop like all the others will have its useful life significantly extended by the existence of a fast card slot.

Make no mistake, removal of the EC slot is a serious cut in MBP capability. Folks saying "who needs it" maybe do not need pro level performance anyway, are simply short sighted, or perhaps enjoy playing the buy-a-new-laptop-every-2-years before-connectivity-gets-outdated game. Heck, a thread like this one could have been trolled by Apple to get the ignoranti to justify the reduction in MBP capability and incite shorter life cycles.

As to "gaining" an SD slot, that is simply part of Apple's (lower) product positioning concurrent with the serious cut in MBP capability, a cute party trick already well served by all the other ports on a MBP. SD cards are slower than FW800 or FW400, often even slower than USB, making the SD slot just a cutesy feature with which to attract non-pro consumers. Note also that pro cameras mostly use the much larger CF format, not SD.

Like I said before, as long as the 17" (or bigger) is maximum competent I personally will remain satisfied. I whine on these boards about things like loss of the EC slot and loss of the matte display on all laptops but the 17" mostly out of fear that Apple may at some point also downgrade the 17" MBP - - and/or simply raise the prices relatively at the high end making MBPs a less cost effective pro solution.

-Allen Wicks

[Big Mac]

Well said, Allen.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

...When I first got a digital camera, I bought PC Card Compact flash reader for my Pismo. Now, as long as it's USB, it's good for me.

No disrespect intended, but that would be because just an amateur-level workflow is being presented to the box. For pro usage (cards or hard drives) USB is slow, significantly workflow-limiting; good only for backup (and if one is not in a hurry, which it seems I usually am when backing up my MBP).

-Allen Wicks

[schalliol]

I agree with these statements. I think the short of it is that you don't notice a card slot until you have a great application for it. The lack of CardBus meant that my $5699 (yeah, that was the price) PowerBook G3/250 (Kanga/3400 series) had much less useful life than if it did with higher speed peripherals/larger amounts of data becoming available. There were CardBus upgrades that you could perform, but that added cost.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by SierraDragon 

As usual, like most polls this poll is worded in such a way as to predetermine some silly outcome.

Huh?
Title, initial post and poll are worded neutrally and clearly, I don't see any such thing.

[schalliol]

I would say "actually *use*" is a loaded portion of the question. If we dissect the language it assumes that very few people use the device, and I believe a resulting connotation is that people are not likely to use it because there is little reason to do so. It seems the author does not believe that there will be many users who do report use. I suppose one could assert that it discourages people to say they use it, but I think the main result shows that perhaps not that many people use it. The result if less than 50% of people say they use it that people think that it's not a valuable slot. However, it may be that the slot was never intended to be used for the majority of uses.

Perhaps then it may be noted that the author did not provide a rationale of what seeing a particular result would indicate. From my perspective, this poll shows a higher number of users than I would have anticipated from what I've seen elsewhere.

[OreoCookie]

I don't think it does imply that. It's just a survey asking people if they use it rather than want one. Different questions and I find neither unfair. Certainly, if I had the choice between an SD card reader and an Express Card slot, I'd choose the latter. But to be honest, I probably belong to the large class of people who won't really miss the Express Card slot.

[Spheric Harlot]

The intent for this poll appeared to arise out of another thread where people were lamenting the demise of the EC slot.

It seemed pretty obvious (to me) at the time that calverson was leading the question, expecting the results to be fairly low and exposing the whining as mostly baseless blather.

Sierra is spot-on.

[ghporter]

I'd say Sierra is "accurate" but not spot on. The point isn't silly, but as SH points out, calverson does appear to have used this to prepare a "stop yer whinin'" smackdown.

Why isn't is silly? Because the EC slot CAN be useful. It's not Apple's fault that the array of available EC cards seems to be limited to SD card readers and mobile WiFi adapters. If the industry had done more to build a customer base for EC cards, say by coming up with many more, very useful EC devices (innovation? what a concept!), we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The intent for this poll appeared to arise out of another thread where people were lamenting the demise of the EC slot.
[snip]
Sierra is spot-on.

I wasn't aware of this. But this, IMO, does not change the way this poll has been worded: simple question, simple answers. Now, apparently the poll does not conform with calverson's initial expectations, but so what?

Even though the reasons Sierra Dragon has given may or may not have been the intention to create this poll, I still don't think that his comment is anywhere near spot-on:

Originally Posted by Sierra Dragon

As usual, like most polls this poll is worded in such a way as to predetermine some silly outcome.

If he had said `earlier posts' or something like that, perhaps. But I don't see any of that in the poll, thread title or initial post.

In any case, I don't want to throw the thread off topic and start a discussion on semantics.

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Huh?
Title, initial post and poll are worded neutrally and clearly, I don't see any such thing.

C'mon, this is not debatable semantics. Saying "Do you actually *use*..." instead of the simpler, more obvious and less typing "Do you use..." is unequivocally not neutral. "Actually" is a strong modifier to the sentence as are the asterisks on "*use*"

The reason such polls (in fact most polls) are "silly" is because they are not random even if the question was neutral. In fact they are the antithesis of random by definition: They are aimed at the tiny forum subset of relevant MBP users, and they measure only the folks within that subset who choose to bother to respond to silly meaningless polls, specifically this one.

The auto-published results may mean something, but what they mean is not the poll answer. E.g. in this case my guess is that some folks (like me) who normally do not respond to silly meaningless polls responded just to make a statement. E.g. in my case the obvious bias of the poll question, about a subject (EC slot) that I care about, caused me to vote when normally I would not. The result being that my guess is the poll results are skewed to show a higher than true % usage of the EC slot.

Such polls can be entertaining, however. And (obviously ) such polls can stimulate good discourse regarding topics that are relevant.

-Allen Wicks

[OreoCookie]

I don't think the modification is as strong as you suggest it to be (I've initially missed that the poll headline uses the word actually which the title misses). I've understood the emphasis on use just as a way to distinguish between `would like to have' and `use.' A poll that was skewed is this one where the initial choices were something like `bad,' `worse' and `truly horrible.'

However, I absolutely agree that the outcome of the poll in all likelihood overestimates the fraction of ProBook owners who use their EC slot. Again, just to emphasize this: count me in on the `want one' camp, but I've never used it.

[ApertureValue]

I never did use it when I had that model.

[mac redneck]

I have a 21 in one card reader. Much faster than plugging the camera into USB.

[Simon]

Getting the card out of the camera and into the right slot on your 21-slot card reader is easier than plugging in a cable?

Interesting camera you have. On my Canon connecting the USB cable takes about half a second. What really pisses me off though is that I can't charge the camera's battery through that same USB connection.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Getting the card out of the camera and into the right slot on your 21-slot card reader is easier than plugging in a cable?

Interesting camera you have. On my Canon connecting the USB cable takes about half a second. What really pisses me off though is that I can't charge the camera's battery through that same USB connection.

I *think* he's talking about the process of actually transferring a couple hundred photos off the camera/card. If the difference is significant, that may well outweigh the effort of removing the card from the camera.

Ditto on WTF can't my camera charge through the USB connector.

[CharlesS]

Well, it's going to be USB either way, so I'd be surprised if there was a huge difference.

[mac redneck]

I am talking about transfer speeds. Much faster with the ec card than with usb. It also doesn't use the camera battery. I really notice the difference when transfering video clips.
CharlesS-With the built in sd reader, I'm sure there's not much difference in speed if any. I'm talking about ec.

[Simon]

Are there any card readers for EC/34 that use the PCIe mode rather than the USB mode of the EC/34 slot?